Just Thinking about Return of the Jedi

[AnaSkywalker]

what happened on the death star was purely between luke and anakin and had no effect on the outcome of the movie. how, you say? because luke and anakin and the emperor could all very easily have been bolown up in the middle of their little pow wow by lando clarissan-it's just a matter of timing about when han got that shield down. so the argument that anakin got rid of the sith is true, of course, but only because of the timing. Do you think lucas did this intentionally or unintentionally?

I like to think that it's part of luke's journey and therefore was intentional. However, if you read the novels, luke is treated as a 'war hero' because he destroyed vader and the sith, but weren't they kind of on the death star that got blown up no thanks to luke(mostly)?

correct me if i'm wrong.

[Sarah-Leia]

Hmm...good question. :scratchchin:
I like to think that the destruction of the Death Star had nothing to do with the destruction of the Sith. They just happened at the same time. Vader's love and sympathy for his son turned him back to the light side, and this in turn caused him to destroy Palpatine. So Luke is responsible for destroying the Sith. (:crying:) In my opinion it is merely a coincidence that Lando blew up the Death Star at the same time. Does this make things any clearer? :)

[AnaSkywalker]

well, not exactly. I mean, was the coincidence planned, do you think?

[Sarah-Leia]

Oh, right. I don't know. Maybe it was. Actually, I think it probably was because GL wanted the Empire and the Sith to go down at the same time.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

what happened on the death star was purely between luke and anakin and had no effect on the outcome of the movie. how, you say? because luke and anakin and the emperor could all very easily have been bolown up in the middle of their little pow wow by lando clarissan-it's just a matter of timing about when han got that shield down. so the argument that anakin got rid of the sith is true, of course, but only because of the timing. Do you think lucas did this intentionally or unintentionally?

I like to think that it's part of luke's journey and therefore was intentional. However, if you read the novels, luke is treated as a 'war hero' because he destroyed vader and the sith, but weren't they kind of on the death star that got blown up no thanks to luke(mostly)?

correct me if i'm wrong.

Interesting, I'd never thought of that. Yeah, I guess that if The Alliance had shot the Death Star a bit earlier the Sith, Empire and Luke would have all gone. So the balance would have been restored to the galaxy as there would be no Jedi or Sith (I don't count Leia as although she was force sensitive I'm not sure she could have taught herself to become a Jedi).

[Kam Solusar]

Maybe things don't happen the same way if Palpatine lives. Maybe he senses through the dark side what's about to happen and abandons the Death Star in time, Luke sure got out in enough time.

[thepepgal]

what happened on the death star was purely between luke and anakin and had no effect on the outcome of the movie. how, you say? because luke and anakin and the emperor could all very easily have been bolown up in the middle of their little pow wow by lando clarissan-it's just a matter of timing about when han got that shield down. so the argument that anakin got rid of the sith is true, of course, but only because of the timing. Do you think lucas did this intentionally or unintentionally?

I like to think that it's part of luke's journey and therefore was intentional. However, if you read the novels, luke is treated as a 'war hero' because he destroyed vader and the sith, but weren't they kind of on the death star that got blown up no thanks to luke(mostly)?

correct me if i'm wrong.

Of course GL did it intentionally. Just like he ensured the escape pod was never shot at in the original film.

Vader killed Palpatine by throwing him over the edge. Vader was then dying due to his suit not being able to handle the force lightning. Vader died just before being dragged onto the shuttle by Luke. Luke was seen escaping the explosion of the Death Star and he burnt Vader's body on Endor.

The Alliance would have listen to Luke describe how he fought Vader and since both sith died he would have been credited with the kills. It was great propaganda for their war efforts.

[Rabid Whiphid]

Luke had 2 plans when he went aboard the second Death Star:

1) ...was to just keep Vader and the Emperor busy until the Rebels could arrive and blow up the Death Star, thus ensuring the destruction of the Sith without Luke having to kill his own father himself. Other than the Rebels' sneak attack, Luke made no secret about this plan, either. He even said to the Emperor: "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."

2.) ...was to try and turn his father back to the good side if time and opportunity might possibly allow for it, but I don't think Luke really believed in his heart that this would be the case.

Bottom line - Luke's journey to the Death Star was basically a suicide mission. He was planning to sacrifice himself for the greater good, and hopefully, by some miracle, save his father's soul along the way, before the end came.

[thepepgal]

Luke had 2 plans when he went aboard the second Death Star:

1) ...was to just keep Vader and the Emperor busy until the Rebels could arrive and blow up the Death Star, thus ensuring the destruction of the Sith without Luke having to kill his own father himself. Other than the Rebels' sneak attack, Luke made no secret about this plan, either. He even said to the Emperor: "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."

2.) ...was to try and turn his father back to the good side if time and opportunity might possibly allow for it, but I don't think Luke really believed in his heart that this would be the case.

Bottom line - Luke's journey to the Death Star was basically a suicide mission. He was planning to sacrifice himself for the greater good, and hopefully, by some miracle, save his father's soul along the way, before the end came.

Very true. He knew the plan of attack so knew the minute he arrived on the DS he should be dead.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Luke had 2 plans when he went aboard the second Death Star:

1) ...was to just keep Vader and the Emperor busy until the Rebels could arrive and blow up the Death Star, thus ensuring the destruction of the Sith without Luke having to kill his own father himself. Other than the Rebels' sneak attack, Luke made no secret about this plan, either. He even said to the Emperor: "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."

2.) ...was to try and turn his father back to the good side if time and opportunity might possibly allow for it, but I don't think Luke really believed in his heart that this would be the case.

Bottom line - Luke's journey to the Death Star was basically a suicide mission. He was planning to sacrifice himself for the greater good, and hopefully, by some miracle, save his father's soul along the way, before the end came.

I agree with all that apart from the fact that Luke didn't believe that he could turn his Father back to the good side. I think he did, just my opinion though. Remember when Yoda raised the X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp and Luke said 'I don't believe it' and Yoda replied 'That is why you fail.' I think Luke learnt from that, he had to believe in the force and its power to make things good. Which was why he ultimately succeeded.

[bruciarsi]

Luke did enough i believe to take vader and palpatines minds off the battle outside. If he hadnt defeated them i still feel he would have ensured they were on the death star when it blew.

Plus i feel one of the best things he did was pull the AT-AT out of the main battle on the surface. Might just be me but i think thats what brings him in when he surenders.... could be wrong however.

[Darill Cyllem]

Bruciarsi, you are correct - an AT-AT brings Luke to the landing platform on Endor, but i don't think it could have engaged in the battle on the moon. We don't see any other AT-ATs in that battle - i think because the AT-ATs were too large to get through the forest efficiently, so the AT-STs were preferred.

[thepepgal]

Bruciarsi, you are correct - an AT-AT brings Luke to the landing platform on Endor, but i don't think it could have engaged in the battle on the moon. We don't see any other AT-ATs in that battle - i think because the AT-ATs were too large to get through the forest efficiently, so the AT-STs were preferred.

But Luke travelled to the DS by shuttle so the AT-AT was free. It was probably at the front entrance and the attack was at the back as mention in the film.

The AT-ST were used in the denser forrest and the AT-AT were use at the front where they have cleared trees from.

[Darill Cyllem]

I think that AT-AT would indeed have been free to engage if, as you point out, pepgal, if had been able to get out of the clearing around the landing platform. Seems like this wasn't an option, though, as no walkers are seen in the Endor ground battle, only the scouts.

[AnaSkywalker]

rabid whipid: that makes a lot of sense, and i'd have to agree with you about everything except not believing his father could be turned back. and i suppose if it hadn't been for luke vader would still be on the moon when the death star blew.

[Rabid Whiphid]

rabid whipid: that makes a lot of sense, and i'd have to agree with you about everything except not believing his father could be turned back. and i suppose if it hadn't been for luke vader would still be on the moon when the death star blew.



I think you have a good point in the first part of what you said. It's interesting... based on strictly the dialogue it seems like Lucas and Kasdan were writing Luke as if the character was very confident in his belief that his father could be turned back... but it almost seems as if Mark Hamill was playing the part with a little subtle touch of doom and gloom in his performance, as if Luke is maybe not so sure deep down.

Personally I think it makes a lot of sense for Luke to be a little conflicted there. What he is doing in the latter half of ROTJ is certainly a leap of faith on his part. He's doing something very dangerous and very risky because he knows it's the right thing, and because he is trying to act on total faith in the Force. But as with anyone who makes a big, risky move based purely on faith, there will always be a certain amount of nagging doubt and fear... that you could be making the biggest mistake of your life.

That's all I'm saying - I think, in his heart, Luke had total faith in the Force and in his father's potential for goodness... but in his head, he was struggling with a lot of gloomy uncertainty.

Oh and by the way, I have to part ways with you regarding the second statement you made... if it wasn't for Luke, Vader would NOT have still been on Endor when the Death Star blew up. The whole reason Vader went down to the moon in the first place was to retreive Luke. Remember? "Vader is here, now, on this moon. He's come for me..."

[AnaSkywalker]

ok, yeah, you're right about that last detail. So then I guess luke was buying time and saving his dad's soul. Sure, that works.

[Cassus Fett]

Your all forgetting what Luke said to the Emperor.

"Soon i'll be dead and you along with me"

So i think the Rebel fleet didnt know that Luke was aboard the Death Star, and i think maybe Luke was hoping to hold out a little longer with the Emperor while the Rebel Fleet moved in to destroy the Death Star, taking out any chance of the Sith returning.

[Darth Massacrus]

the thing is is that neither Luke nor the Rebels knew that in addition to The Emperor and Lord Vader being on the Death Star, almost the entire Imperial Ruling Council/Inner Circle was also on the Death Star (they are commonly known as the Imperial Dignitaries). Because only two of them managed to evacuate the Death Star, there was that much less of a central Imperial Authority for the Alliance to battle after Endor. And two of those dignitaries were also Dark Side Adepts (though that is revealed in EU stuff) meaning that they could have ensured the survival of the Dark Side dominance after Endor.

[Cassus Fett]

Yes and we are talking about the films not anything after.

[Rabid Whiphid]

Your all forgetting what Luke said to the Emperor. "Soon i'll be dead and you along with me".



Not all of us. I pointed that out a few posts ago.

[thepepgal]

I think that AT-AT would indeed have been free to engage if, as you point out, pepgal, if had been able to get out of the clearing around the landing platform. Seems like this wasn't an option, though, as no walkers are seen in the Endor ground battle, only the scouts.

The Empire wouldn't waste sending military hardware to a planet when they couldn't use it.

The attack we saw was from the back of the complex so it appears they hadn't considered all the options.

In the battle in space you don't actually see the Mon Calamari cruisers attack the Empire's star destroyers at close quarters but they did. We more saw of the Xwings and the Falcon taking out the DS.

ATST were the feature of the ground fight by GL. So there would have been ATAT in the battle on the ground we just didn't see them do it.

[Cassus Fett]

^ we also know that there were 50 ISD's there but you dont see them all aswell as 20 various types of Mon Cal Cruisers.

Im guessing the AT-AT walker was merely there to defend the landing platform, as i guess it may have had difficultly moving around the vast forest of Endor.

Its like placing a large tank down narrow streets, it becomes an easy target but if you place several small and lighter tanks (AT-ST) they are difficult to target and take out.

[RollaFett]

Luke had 2 plans when he went aboard the second Death Star:

1) ...was to just keep Vader and the Emperor busy until the Rebels could arrive and blow up the Death Star, thus ensuring the destruction of the Sith without Luke having to kill his own father himself. Other than the Rebels' sneak attack, Luke made no secret about this plan, either. He even said to the Emperor: "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."

2.) ...was to try and turn his father back to the good side if time and opportunity might possibly allow for it, but I don't think Luke really believed in his heart that this would be the case.

Bottom line - Luke's journey to the Death Star was basically a suicide mission. He was planning to sacrifice himself for the greater good, and hopefully, by some miracle, save his father's soul along the way, before the end came.

Very well stated! I've often thought of this and it's damn near impossible to come to a different conclusion. He was on a suicide mission, plain and simple.
The fact that he was able to escape probably came as a surprise to him.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Very well stated! I've often thought of this and it's damn near impossible to come to a different conclusion. He was on a suicide mission, plain and simple.
The fact that he was able to escape probably came as a surprise to him.

I think he had a lot of his Father in him in that he thought of others with little regard for himself. I believe he would have accepted whatever fate the force determined for him, so maybe he wouldn't have been all that surprised that he escaped.

[melissa_ladyvader]

ever wonder if padme left anakin because he didnt want a baby

17 years pass by some chick named leia comes along
he falls in love with her.....****s her hard

padme comes along confesses to him...leia is his daughter?

oooh my god..thats just ewwwwwwwwwww

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Anakin did want the children! That would never happen, SW bears no resemblence to an episode of Jerry Springer.

[Rabid Whiphid]

I sense a slash fiction writer in our midst.

[melissa_ladyvader]

ooh jesus christ........people,people can u just not accept my big sense of humour?........man...u gotta understand that i joke around like that
especially about star wars..okay.....thats just part of my humor
i know it makes u guys think "this chick is twisted"
well im not......i just joke around thats all

but if i offended you....im sorry and next time i wont talk like that

darth vader will you forgive me?

[Kam Solusar]

You gotta be more obvious about a joke in written form. We can't hear tone.

[melissa_ladyvader]

yeah but....its a joke, I didnt say anything about anyone.....nor did I say anything towards someone...it was just a figure of speech.

yeah i know the rules around here..im not 10 years old okay?

geez.......im SORRY

[Kam Solusar]

Jeez, you're touchy. It might have been a joke, but it was in bad taste, really bad taste, and even if it wasn't directed at anyone here, it was just wrong with a capital wrong.

[melissa_ladyvader]

yeah whatever......dont cross me
i get can get worse than princess leia...or even darth vader

[DblDwn]

And here we have proof that no one should be drinking the water in Brampton. :)

[empire21]

And here we have proof that no one should be drinking the water in Brampton. :)

Yep, hopefully they find the problem and fix it before it hits my area. :crazy: