Racism in the empire?

[electric]

Dunno if there's a topic about this, couldn't find one. Anyway, anyone else noticed how it seems that everyone in the empire are humans? In the republic in the PT there were a lot of aliens in the senate and holding important positions in the republic, but in the empire we only see humans, and actually only white men too.
Even the rebels had a lot of aliens, we see a lot of them on the ships in ROTJ when they attack the death star, but everyone in Empire uniforms are all human. Do you think this was done on purpose, or...?

[sharyntyre]

yessssssss. the Impire was very anti alien bias. The Imp navy took it further including human females for the most part. Aliens are good for killing other aliens and slaves.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Agreed. Sidious was quite anti-Alien as he thought other species were beneath humans. Although he would use aliens as pawns to get what he wanted and then rule the galaxy, hence he had some aliens in his close circle. This was stated in Dark Lord, The Rise of Darth Vader and whilst I appreciate this is EU, it does tie in to the OT where we see mainly humans with respect to Empire scenes.

Of course, it would also have something to do with the budget for the OT and the fact that it was far easier to use humans rather than create aliens. Computer generated characters were able to be used for the PT, hence there were more of them in those films.

[DblDwn]

We do get the impression in ESB that Piett is not fond of the bounty hunters because, I imagine, most of them are either aliens or robots. Droids are clearly not popular on Tattooine, the cantina scene, which I imagine is a result of the battle droids from the PT and their part in the war. Aliens, on the other hand, are another story. Perhaps Palpatine initiated a law that aliens were not to be trusted because he knew that Yoda was both an alien and, more importantly, alive somewhere after the events of ROTS.

[thepepgal]

Yes the Empire was racist. Remember Han freed Chewie from slavery and Chewie was working in an imperial site.

The Empire was like the nazis of their universe. Everyone was inferior to the humans.

[csr74]

Yes, the Empire was officcially racist and male-chauvinist. Curiously enough, it appears to be a matter more of Sate Pestage than of Palpatine himself.

[DblDwn]

Who?

[Konig15]

Sate Pestage:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sate_Pestage

One of the Emperor's chief advisors and yes, even back in ESB days, they had a playset with him talking to Vader via Holonet

Sate was basicly the Himmler and Carl Schmidt of the New Order; the intellectual and practical implementer of racial policy.

[DblDwn]

Oh, one of the advisors on the Death Star in ROTJ. Yeah, so I just realized that I have never taken the time to learn the names of those guys. Thank you.

[silverbolt]

It goes into greater depth within the EU but yes even in the movies thier is suggestions about the racist and sexist build up of the empire.

Look at the scene where jan reveals his battle plan the only non human is chewie at least to my recolection. The cantina scene is the only one where you see aliens

[RollaFett]

Again, as previously mentioned, I would chalk that up mostly to budget. But then, we don't see any aliens on Hoth with the rebels, except for Chewie. Hmmm...

[Darth Massacrus]

Actually, the term you refer to is speciesism, not racism. And personally, Palpatine had few if any qualms about aliens, but his chief deputy, aide for decades, Grand Vizier, and the guy who ran the Empire day to day by Hoth (Sate Pestage) was VERY bigoted towards nonhumans. But facts do show that humans are the most populous species in the galaxy, and also are among the most adaptive, and make excellent soldiers. As for why the Imperial Army was almost entirely human male, look who the original clones were: human males! (Though that could be due to the fact that Darth Tyrannus was also Speciesist). So the Empire simply built on what they had to start with, and the fact that many of Palpatines top deputies (Pestage, Doriana, Il-Raz, Vandron, Isard) ect were bigoted only furthered the bias. But remember, Palps himself was not a bigot.

[csr74]

Dooku had such prejudices? He didn´t seem so...:eh:

Though no doubt the fact of humans being so numerous helped. As a side consequence, when the Empire got stripped of resources and personnel they recruited everyone available.

[electric]

Again, as previously mentioned, I would chalk that up mostly to budget. But then, we don't see any aliens on Hoth with the rebels, except for Chewie. Hmmm...

Yeah, but in ROTJ it seemed almost done on purpose... there were plenty of aliens with Lando in the ships that attacked the death star, but not a single one in the rebel ships.

[silverbolt]

aside from the budget problems not every race can pilot a snub fighter, Thakwaash's for example are much to tall to fit into a cockpit, the sullustian nien numb was the only alien aboard the falcon, (that you see anyway) and mon cals were the main supplier of ships after ESB which is why it goes from Rebellion to alliance, the vast majority of the rebeliion are made up of humans (many of them are correllians like solo and antilles) though at least until the later years of it

[sharyntyre]

hey electric err you mean no aliens on Imperial ships?

I keep wanting to toss EU info into this convo :banghead:

Good point DM about Palpy

[Cydon]

As have I!!! Frustrating huh?

[Konig15]

Well it would make logistics a lot simpler, plus crew interactions would be noticbly less. Persoanlly if I were evil dictation, I'd have like all Human ships, and all Wookie ships, all Chiss ships, etc. Sept for the Twilek belly dancers, everyone loves them! :devil:

[csr74]

As for logistics, it would do with compatible species, i mean, that they aren´t enemies and that they have similar senses in matters of range covered and stuff, for instance that they share the same capabilities regarding what colors they are able to see and so on.

[Darth Massacrus]

as for someones point above about Dooku's prejudices, he is revealed in Labyrinth of Evil and the ROTS novels to have been a bigot. Also, this explains why he didnt choose a nonhuman as the template for the original clones...

[Ojres]

Yes, the Empire was officcially racist and male-chauvinist. Curiously enough, it appears to be a matter more of Sate Pestage than of Palpatine himself.
They were against women too? I know all the stormies were men and most of the Moffs and other officials were male but I remember from one of the EU books stated that at least 2 of the "remaining" Moffs were female.

[Kapit]

Anyone remember the comic convention in "Chasing Amy"?




WARNING: some people may find this quote offensive, although it is not. It's a humorous quote with no seriousness behind it whatsoever, and it's also got some language, so be warned




Hooper: Bust this: those movies are about how the white man keep the brother man down, even in a galaxy far, far away. Check this s---: You got cracker farm boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy, blond hair, blue eyes. And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!

Banky Edwards: What's a Nubian?

Hooper: Shut the f--- up! Now... Vader, he's a spiritual brother, y'know, down with the Force and all that good s---. Then this cracker, Skywalker, gets his hands on a lightsaber and the boy decides he's gonna run the f---in' universe; gets a whole clan of whites together. And they go and bust up Vader's hood, the Death Star. Now what the f--- do you call that?

Banky Edwards: Intergalactic Civil War

Hooper: Gentrification! They gon' drive out the black element to make the galaxy 'safe' for white folks. And Jedi's the most insulting installment! Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!

Banky Edwards: Well... isn't that true?









END POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE QUOTE

[Konig15]

That was the best part of Chasing Amy. Banky was my hero for the rest of the day.

****Spoiler****















(I know Banky was in on the scam, but it still warmed my heart to see a white guy shoving an Afrocentric moronity and shove it up :censored:. But the thing with the pistol was PRICELESS! Oh God! :rofl: )



***End Spoiler***

[DblDwn]

"BLACK RAGE!!!!!!!! BLACK RAGE!!!!!!!!!" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[RollaFett]

Ahhh...Kevin Smith and Star Wars. Brings warm feelings to my heart.

[csr74]

They were against women too? I know all the stormies were men and most of the Moffs and other officials were male but I remember from one of the EU books stated that at least 2 of the "remaining" Moffs were female.


Yes, they were against women too. In fact those cases you mention are exceptional. And if one of them is Leonia Tavira, she appointed herself Moff...she wasn´t officially appointed by any Government. So just imagine.

[DblDwn]

Ok this is interesting to me because, from a cinematic standpoint, Palpatine's two biggest advisors in the PT are Mas Amedda, an alien, and Sly Moore, a female. With Palpatine's two biggest advisors each making up the two demographics we are discussing, and Palpatine being the Emperor to the Empire, wouldn't the Empire's attitudes toward these demographics be reflective of their leaders attitude toward these same demographics?

[Kapit]

Ok this is interesting to me because, from a cinematic standpoint, Palpatine's two biggest advisors in the PT are Mas Amedda, an alien, and Sly Moore, a female. With Palpatine's two biggest advisors each making up the two demographics we are discussing, and Palpatine being the Emperor to the Empire, wouldn't the Empire's attitudes toward these demographics be reflective of their leaders attitude toward these same demographics?




I believe in a novel (possibly ROTS itself) Palpatine thinks to himself about how they're the first to go once he takes over. Like he had them for appearances sake, so people would like him, but as soon as he took over, they would be gone. Which is kinda weird because Amedda's hanging around with Palpatine right before the duel with Yoda....


Anyways, I'm about 75% certain this was explained slightly in a book, but since I haven't read any of them in quite a while, I can't be completely certain. Maybe someone can back me up here?

[sharyntyre]

I believe Palpy saw everyone, including Vader as nothing more than tools to elevate and maintain his power. Just as he used the trade federation and General G-four arms and saw them desposed of. I agree with the wench and alien being window dressing.

Remember Palpy allowed the republic the illusion of shared power until ANH. That is when he offically desolved the Senate, if I am remembering the scene on the Death Star correctly.

[DblDwn]

You are. And it is correct that Palpatine, more or less, is a master of manipulation who uses anyone and everyone to attain and maintain his level of power within the galaxy. That said, if aliens and women could be successfully manipulated into furthering his cause, I don't see him being beyond exercising that option as in the case of Mas and Sly.

But, again, if he isn't beyond using aliens and women in his Empire then why would his underlings be any different?

[sharyntyre]

hmms, this is a theory, and I may well be wrong.

Sith feed on negativity, their own dark emotions as well as that of those around them yes?

If so it stands to reason Palpy would turn a blind eye to the mistreatment of aliens and women. small evils, small hurts turn into an ocean of negativity over time. fear is of the dark side, how many feared the sight of storm troopers/clone soldiers? following this theory he may have 'fed' off the hateful emotions and actions of his visors as well as the missery they caused.

Speciesism is likely much like Racism here on earth, meaning there are very strong and deep emotions fueling the behavior...

[DblDwn]

Fair point

[Darth Massacrus]

you have to keep in mind that nowhere is Palpatine ever shown to be racist in any of the films. And without dragging the EU into this (which BTW would be heplful) I really have to point out that every single member of the Searatist Council as well as Grevous, Maul, Jabba, Sebulba, ect from the PT is shown to be evil. And the ones that arent evil (gungans come to mind here) are shown as either incompetent or corrupt (the Senate). Fastforwaard to the OT, and the only bad guys are the Imperials and a few bounty hunters, as well as Jabba. Everyone else is good. Basically, it seems that more beings (especially aliens) are evil in the PT than the OT. Just wondering if anyone else noticed that, or got that feeling...

[Cydon]

:blink: Now that I think of it, you're right!

[Darth Massacrus]

I want to see if anyone else here has noticed that trend...

[Kapit]

You are right in showing how things have flip-flopped in the movies. The majority of the villains in the PT are aliens, though there are obviously the good aliens too.

Then once we get to the OT, the roles have basically reversed. Maybe aliens in the galaxy far far away enjoying rebelling against society....they rebelled against the Old Republic, and they rebelled against the Empire....

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I want to see if anyone else here has noticed that trend...

Yes, although to be honest I would say that it is simply down to budget and what they were able to shoot for the OT. I am sure that if the technology and budget were there then we would have seen many more aliens, both good and evil in the OT.

[thepepgal]

Yes, although to be honest I would say that it is simply down to budget and what they were able to shoot for the OT. I am sure that if the technology and budget were there then we would have seen many more aliens, both good and evil in the OT.

That is the exact reason.

[Konig15]

Pity, I really enjoyed the humanocentric cast of the OT. Hell I'd like to see a movie or film about a space empire with NO aliens at all. Then we could aviod the heavy handed racism metaphors.

[thepepgal]

Pity, I really enjoyed the humanocentric cast of the OT. Hell I'd like to see a movie or film about a space empire with NO aliens at all. Then we could aviod the heavy handed racism metaphors.


No then the split would be between humans as conflict is always required.

[Darth Massacrus]

good point. Actually, there is a third option: demons. Just watch Doom or play Doom 3 or Doom 3 RoE, for more on that...

[sharyntyre]

^ right! I'm sure a lot of it was techno and buget limitations. bah it's so hard to not use EU info.

about PT aliens. let us not be so quick to call them evil in the PT arc, they were being manipulated by Palpy from the begining. I'm sure there was bad blood, but I belive Palpy instigated the whole separatist movement to help justify the huge clone army. The whole thing was an elaberate plan to put him on a thrown (duh)

He destroyed the whole lot of them as soon as the need for the secret alliance was gone. Can debate the racism/speciesim of that fact, but there was no respect in tossing aside tools once the job was finished.

[nea200pl]

I think Empire was phobic towards other species. They adopted 'humans are superior' believe, hence slavery of the Wookies and using other species for worst jobs.
When you look at Palpatine's closest advisers, officers, soldiers, etc. they were all human. Behaviour like that can resemble Nazis and Hitler. However when Hitler didn't hide his hate towards non-Nazis, I think Palpatine tried to cover it and convince people otherwise. In Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader's book Senator from Rodia planet challenges Palpatine about it - Emperor then tries to explain so called only-human favourism is merely circumstantial.
I found it in most sci-fi universes - you don't have phobia towards other races any more - it got replaced by other species hatery.