Force Ghosts

[Miasmo]

Okay, so Obiwan, Yoda, and Anakin came back as ghosts, and I'm sure a number of others in the EU. My question is, what are the limits on how these spirits can interact with each other? Have there been 'ghosts duels' or anything like that? Any details?

[nefertiti]

I would have thought they had the same abilities they had while alive...but in "being" one with the Force, those talents would make them truely immortal. Can you destroy a Force Ghost?

[Rabid Whiphid]

I think the idea is, if you die as a Jedi you become one with the Force, so you can live for all eternity in peace, and occasionally return to the "world of the living" to interact with living people. The films do not specify if the living people you can interact with are limited to only living Jedis, or if it can be any of your surviving loved ones.

However, if you die with your soul consumed by the Dark Side, you lose your soul and cannot become one with the Force. That's the logic behind this dialogue exchange:

Luke: "I've got to save you!"
Anakin (about to expire after having been just turned back to "the good side" with help from his son): "You already have, Luke."

So, someone consumed with the Dark Side cannot reappear in the world of the living as a "Force Ghost". It is possible that someone who dies consumed with the Dark Side cannot even attain eternal life. Perhaps at that point even their souls cease to exist? Or perhaps there is some sci-fi version of Hell in the SW universe? Who knows. The details get a little fuzzy there.

Anyway, the logic would follow that anyone who was a Sith Lord or other practitioner of the Dark Side could not return as a "Force Ghost" and therefore would not be able to engage in spiritual warfare with Jedi "Force Ghosts".

[silverbolt]

Exur kun came back as a ghost though on yavin, he kills gantoris and subverts kyp to the dark side

[Rabid Whiphid]

Exur kun came back as a ghost though on yavin, he kills gantoris and subverts kyp to the dark side


That sounds like a load of EU BS.

[Miasmo]

Hey now. I'm open to EU examples. Fan speculation can often be very similar to EU material. I didn't open this thread for EU bashing or praising.

[nefertiti]

I agree with Rabid's assessment. Sith wouldn't have the ability to become Force Ghosts. But then doesn't that classify the Force as exclusively "good?" I was under the impression that it was the individual that manipulated the Force... But if we think that the Ghosts are only Jedi, ergo light...then the Force has an active role.

As far as being a Force Ghost, I still think that they would have all of the abilities that they would have had during their lives and perhaps more. The decision to become "physical" involved would have been a choice and not something taboo.

[bluemilk]

Shinto belief is centered on the worship of the kami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami). Those of the Shinto religion believe that all things, including rocks, have a type of indwelling force or spirit. If the living force in Star Wars is made up of all living things and interacts through symbiosis with all living beings (including animals) then, if we use the Kami as a reference, Force spirits are the intelligent manifestation of something through the Force.

I don't believe that Force Ghosts would duel etc. because once a spirit has left it's physical host then there would be no reason to engage in "earthly" pursuits. Also, since all spirits return or are a part of the Force, it would be like Force fighting itself which would be pointless.

[bluemilk]

I think the idea is, if you die as a Jedi you become one with the Force, so you can live for all eternity in peace, and occasionally return to the "world of the living" to interact with living people. The films do not specify if the living people you can interact with are limited to only living Jedis, or if it can be any of your surviving loved ones.

However, if you die with your soul consumed by the Dark Side, you lose your soul and cannot become one with the Force. That's the logic behind this dialogue exchange:

Luke: "I've got to save you!"
Anakin (about to expire after having been just turned back to "the good side" with help from his son): "You already have, Luke."

So, someone consumed with the Dark Side cannot reappear in the world of the living as a "Force Ghost". It is possible that someone who dies consumed with the Dark Side cannot even attain eternal life. Perhaps at that point even their souls cease to exist? Or perhaps there is some sci-fi version of Hell in the SW universe? Who knows. The details get a little fuzzy there.

Anyway, the logic would follow that anyone who was a Sith Lord or other practitioner of the Dark Side could not return as a "Force Ghost" and therefore would not be able to engage in spiritual warfare with Jedi "Force Ghosts".
that's incorrect. The Force is made up of all living things despite the duality of lightside and darkside. I'm sure that even darkside force users return to the Force upon death. Like Yoda told Obi-Wan in Episode III, Qui Gon had learned a technique to manifest his spirit through the Force.

[Miasmo]

Interesting take, Bluemilk. It seems pretty logical that a return to the Force would negate the need for warfare. The Force fighting itself, I hadn't thought about it that way(though I should have, doh!).

I had generally accepted the generally accepted theory of 'being one with the force' leading to transformation, or transcension, into a ghost. But part of me wondered 'what if'. What if Yoda decided, before he died, that he would start killing people. Knowing that is was 'wrong', knowing the damage to the Force it caused. So only if he's sorry and repents as he dies can he turn into a ghost? There would have to be a line drawn somewhere, and that's what irks me. I guess, being an atheist, I don't usually think of heaven and hell, and that scenario reminds me of it. Be good, able to become a ghost. Be bad, later sucka.

I guess I'd like to have peeked in on the conferences between Qui-gon, Obiwan and Yoda concerning this.

[bluemilk]

Interesting take, Bluemilk. It seems pretty logical that a return to the Force would negate the need for warfare. The Force fighting itself, I hadn't thought about it that way(though I should have, doh!).

I had generally accepted the generally accepted theory of 'being one with the force' leading to transformation, or transcension, into a ghost. But part of me wondered 'what if'. What if Yoda decided, before he died, that he would start killing people. Knowing that is was 'wrong', knowing the damage to the Force it caused. So only if he's sorry and repents as he dies can he turn into a ghost? There would have to be a line drawn somewhere, and that's what irks me. I guess, being an atheist, I don't usually think of heaven and hell, and that scenario reminds me of it. Be good, able to become a ghost. Be bad, later sucka.

I guess I'd like to have peeked in on the conferences between Qui-gon, Obiwan and Yoda concerning this.
Star Wars is heavily based on Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Shinto and East Indian philosophy. It's not based on Christianity as an upcoming author would like to believe it is. So if we know this then going by Eastern religious philosophy, then the goal of every Jedi is to become one with the force. The goal of Hinduism, Buddism etc. is enlightenment or becoming one with the divine. The Indian philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman), one can reach enlightenment, or becoming one with Brahman, by evolving beyond the body and ego etc. In Buddhism this is called Buddha-nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature).

However, in religious Taoism and Shinto they believe in ghosts (spirits, kami) and that these ghosts can do good or do harm. The thing with Star Wars is it takes from many eastern religious beliefs so the truth of what the Force is or can be is almost evanescent. In my opinion, the Force is like the Tao or Brahman; a state where the duality of light or dark no longer exists. I believe that both light and dark force users can manifest themselves through the force if they have reached a state of enlightenment that allows for that. If one of the critical steps in eastern belief to gain enlightenment is to transcend ego, emotions and the body then I'm sure it is harder for darkside force users since it is usually their emotions and ego that guides them to the dark side.

[Rabid Whiphid]

Hey now. I'm open to EU examples. Fan speculation can often be very similar to EU material. I didn't open this thread for EU bashing or praising.

I know, I just wanted an excuse to say "EU BS". It has a nice ring to it.

[Rabid Whiphid]

that's incorrect. The Force is made up of all living things despite the duality of lightside and darkside.





The Force is made up of all living things, but like any form of energy it has positive and negative aspects. The implication in the (let's try to remember) fictional storyline of the SW films, is that all living things are naturally filled with the "positive" Force energy. Jedis are individuals who are gifted with an unusual connection with that energy, where they can access it, utilize it, and be guided by its will. Another implication in the films is that when a person turns to the Dark Side, the positive Force energy within them turns negative, which, from the point of view of the Jedis, who are supposed to be the "good guys" the audience should be rooting for, is a corruption of the Force.

With all due respect to your personal interpretation, bluemilk, it sounds like (and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you) you are saying that the Force is equal in all living things, thus there is no difference between lightside and darkside?

That sounds like moral relativism to me. I would suggest that there's a big difference, and that the Jedi point of view - that the Dark Side is a corruption of the Force energy, and therefore an act of evil - would certainly be correct.

Jedis who adhere to the "light side" of the Force - which the story implies is the Force in its most "natural" form - remain in control of their own capacities. They recognize their human flaws and seek an enlightened spiritual existence, where they put the needs of others before their own, and help people. That's a good way to live. Good because such a lifestyle benefits oneself as well as others around them, and the world they all live in.

On the other hand, when someone turns to the Dark Side, their judgement becomes skewed toward a ravenous pursuit of personal power, and their own selfish goals, above all else, even if that means the elimination of anyone (including loved ones) who stands in their way. Those are thoroughly evil impulses. Evil, because those impulses are tyrannical and destructive to others.

So, yeah, I'd say there's a clear difference. And it only stands to reason that sources of harmful, corrupt, negative energy would be instantly cancelled out when they cease to exist in the "world of the living" and attempt to "join the Force". Or, if these evil spirits do not cease to exist, they certainly must be quarantined in some way because deceased Dark Side users obviously have no power to influence things in the "world of the living" the way the spirits of deceased Jedis do.

But at the end of the day it's just an imaginary story, so who cares.

[Rabid Whiphid]

There would have to be a line drawn somewhere, and that's what irks me. I guess, being an atheist, I don't usually think of heaven and hell, and that scenario reminds me of it. Be good, able to become a ghost. Be bad, later sucka.

I get your point but it's a weak argument. That's like saying, "I don't like the idea that if I step off the roof of a skyscraper, I will fall to the ground and die. That irks me! I want to be able to step off a building and float up into the clouds!" In other words, just because somebody chooses not to believe in the Law of Gravity doesn't mean it isn't still there, or that there won't be consequences to the decisions that person makes if they try to live in defiance of that law.

If something like the Force, or Nature, (or God, if you want to make that analogy) exists, then you have to accept that it works a certain way, which was all figured out long before us humans ever appeared on the scene. And apparently, it continues to have a profound affect on the way things work in the universe. And... it's gonna keep doing things the way it does things, no matter what the tiny, embittered ants it created, who live on the little round balls of dirt it made, think about it.

[Rabid Whiphid]

Star Wars is heavily based on Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Shinto and East Indian philosophy. It's not based on Christianity as an upcoming author would like to believe it is.

Actually, George Lucas has said in interviews that his idea of the Force was simply boiling down all religions into a basic concept that anyone could relate to. Claims that The fictional Force is a stand-in for Buddhism or Zen or Christianity or whatever religion you prefer, are all equally innacurate. It's just pretend. George just made it up.

[thepepgal]

QuiGon learnt to remain whole within the flow of the force. He then taught it to Yoda and Obi Wan and probably Anakin. To be separate meant they probably didn't have conversations with each as they may have blend and lost form.

Exar Zun spirit survived by submersing himself in the temple where he died. he conversed with many who visited the temple. He is only heard as a voice and never appears as aghost.

So it appears both sides can do it but the jedi can travel distances and show themselves in living form.

[Miasmo]

I get your point but it's a weak argument. That's like saying, "I don't like the idea that if I step off the roof of a skyscraper, I will fall to the ground and die. That irks me! I want to be able to step off a building and float up into the clouds!"
No, I don't think it's that weak of an argument, and I wouldn't use that comparison at all. Reserving the ability to return as a ghost for Jedi seems illogical, against nature.

But yeah, if choosing logic over religion is 'living in a fantasy world', guilty as charged.

And yes, I realize the irony of using the words 'fantasy world' in my argument about star wars. :wink:

[Rabid Whiphid]

And yes, I realize the irony of using the words 'fantasy world' in my argument about star wars. :wink:


Yeah that's the funny part. I can take it all serious and debate it all day long but in the end I have to remind myself that Star Wars is still just make-believe. Haha.

[silverbolt]

That sounds like a load of EU BS.

hardly BS when there is far more info contained within the EU than in teh movies but anyway..........

There is nothing really to say that only Jedi can become force ghosts you simply only see ben, anakin and yoda as ghosts but they serve a purpose (teaching luke and congratulating him) and qui gonn being implied there is no sights of maul vader and palps as ghosts but then thier no need for it.

ive always felt that the force is nuetral hence why both sides can use it, it may be that only certain abilities are only accessible depending on what way you use it, (think in the games where everyones favourite force lighting is only used by Sith and is classed as a dark power) anger and agression are conduits to said dark force powers

[Darth Massacrus]

heres a little info on Force ghosts of the Sith.


Dark Lord of the Sith Ajunta Pall: one of the original exiled Dark Jedi Lords from the Hundred Year Darkness to discover the Sith, Ajunta Pall became one of the earliest of the Dark Lords of the Sith of the First Sith Empire, and when he was destroyed by his powerful Sword he was laid to rest in a tomb on Korriban. His Force Ghost would haunt the tomb for millennia, and eventually come to regret his actions as a fallen Jedi and Dark Lord. When Revan entered Pall's tomb in 3956 BBY, he was confronted with the greif saddenned Force Ghost of the former Dark Lord, who demanded that Revan take away the blades that were encased in his sarcophagus. Canonically, Ajunta's Ghost was able to be redeemed by Revan via giving up his hatred and forgiving himself for his crimes from milennia ago. What is interesting is that Ajunta Pall's spirit was able to interact with the tomb and its occupants, and still wield the Force. It was only that when he gave up the negative emotions containing his spirit that he was able to vanish into the netherworld of the Force.

Dark Lord of the Sith Marka Ragnos: a Dark Lord for well over a century by the time of his death shortly before 5000 BBY, Marka Ragnos was entombed with both his body and spirit intact, but not together. At his funeral, his Force Ghost appeared to rival Sith Lords Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow, and was able to show them visions of the Hundred Year Darkness and the arrival of the fallen Jedi on Korriban. Then for a millennia he would vanish into his tomb. When Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma battled each other in the streets of Cinnagar on Koros Major in 3997 BBY, each had a Sith Amulet that gave off darkside energy to the point where Ragnos' Force Ghost was able to appear to them and physically burn Sith Tatoo's into their foreheads, marking them as the new Dark Lord and Sith Lord Apprentice. Apparently, Ragnos was also aware of what had happenned in the interval period, as he was able to comment on the extermination of the Sith species and the Great Hyperspace War. After this, Ragnos returned to his tomb on Korriban on the far side of the galaxy. During the Jedi Civil War, Ragnos' spirit did not appear to the Jedi Exile or Revan when each visited his tomb, nor to Darth Bane during the New Sith Wars when Bane searched the Valley. During the reign of Emperor Palpatine, The Emperor often visited Korriban and consulted with the Force Ghosts of many past Dark Lords, but it is unknown if Ragnos was present among those. In 13 ABY, the Dark Jedi Tavion acquired a scepter made by Ragnos at an unknown point, which allowed her to siphon Force energy out of entire planets and imbue normal beings with Force Powers while simulaneaously storing Force energy of enough intensity that, when imbued into the body of Ragnos, would be enough to resurrect the Dark Lords body and enable his ghost to reclaim it. However, a lone Jedi Knight named Jaden Korr was able to force Ragnos' Ghost to occupy Tavion's body instead, which was unable to handle the corruption bought about by the Dark Lord's spirit. Ragnos' Ghost fled back into his sarcophagus, and as his body and spirit still survive, he could yet return. What is interesting to note about Ragnos and his Force Ghost is that it would seem that as a being who was strong in the Dark Side, his body was able to endure far more corruption that use of the Darkside causes, whereas Tavion could not. This may be the case of the other Dark Lords and Sith Lords of the Old Sith Empire, as it has been stated in several comics that their bodies were forever preserved by their own powers, and that thier spirits haunted thier tombs as Force Ghosts. When coupled with the knowledge that the Lords of the Old Sith Empire knew techniques that could keep thier bodies alive for centuries, and that being done with the corruption of the Dark Side eating away at the said body, it and that there are techniques and devices that can enable the siphoning of Force energy, added to the fact that certain locations and designs focus the Force, it seems that the ancient Sith Lords' bodies would eventually be mummified by the Darkside in a sense, at which point the Force Ghost of said Sith would be 'forced' to occupy a new home, be it another person or a tomb or temple or Sith Holorcon or Amulet or artifact. Logically, one could also assume that if an ancient or more recent Dark Lords body still existed and so did the Force Ghost, sufficiently intense and concentrated Force energy would enable the Decceased to be bought back to life....

[Miasmo]

It was only that when he gave up the negative emotions containing his spirit that he was able to vanish into the netherworld of the Force.

This sounds close to a 'real world' view of ghosts. Many people who believe in ghosts think that they exist because of unfinished business of the soul. Once that business is taken care of, they can full exit earthly existence.

With that in mind, I seem to recall the bond between the living and the non-living weakening over time, making it more difficult to appear as a 'force ghost'. Maybe I'm thinking of some other fantasy story. I remember a ghost telling someone that they won't be able to visit them anymore because of too weak a bond.

Maybe I'm just having Cloak and Dagger flashbacks.


EDIT: Darth M, any chance you can start using shorter paragraphs when you post things like that? ;)

[Darth Massacrus]

for me, that WAS a 'shorter parag.' ehehehehe

as for time, it did not seem to be that much of an issue for the older Jedi and Sith, as Vodo Siosk Baas and Marka Ragnos and many other Dark Lords came back millennia after thier deaths...

[Miasmo]

In one of the books, didn't they touch on Obi-Wan not being able to visit Luke because of his waning connection?

[Darth Massacrus]

yep. I think that one has to prepare enough to become a longer lasting or everlasting Force Ghost. Obi Wan died in the heat of battle, so he may not have had the time to prepare. This would also explain why the more Ancient Force Ghosts did have and still do have, such longevity. Or it could be the fact that the flow of time on Korriban is almost completely halted due to the darkside energies of the planet...

[Rabid Whiphid]

Geez no offense but you guys are getting too EU for me.

[thepepgal]

Geez no offense but you guys are getting too EU for me.


Take deep breaths and imagine your fav scene from the movies Rabid Whiphid. Then you'll make it thru. :)

[Darth Massacrus]

agreed^!

[Rabid Whiphid]

Take deep breaths and imagine your fav scene from the movies Rabid Whiphid. Then you'll make it thru. :)


Thank you for the advice. Yes, that helped!

[thepepgal]

Thank you for the advice. Yes, that helped!

You're welcome. :)