What's with the clone army?

[MandalorianJF]

I always had this question in my head: Witch army is better the Clone Army or the Imperial army?
The Clone army came before the Imperial army but the Clone army is more powerful. The Imperial army should be more powerful because it's older.

So why did GL make the Clone army more powerful?

[Konig15]

Where'd you get the idea GL made the Imperial Army weaker?

[MandalorianJF]

Where'd you get the idea GL made the Imperial Army weaker?

Well, the Imperial army is powerful. But look at the clone army it looks much more powerful, don't you think.

[techno-union]

They are the same army doing different things, the clone army was fighting a full blown war, the imperial army enforced a totalitarian regime and fought a different style of war with the rebels.

[MandalorianJF]

They are the same army doing different things, the clone army was fighting a full blown war, the imperial army enforced a totalitarian regime and fought a different style of war with the rebels.

Look at the ships they used.
What's better a Tie Fighter or an ARC-170 Starfighter? You get the point

[Tovor]

I think what he means is that we saw a lot more extensive warfare in the Clone Wars. We didn't see missiles and gunships in the OT either, nor straffing of enemy vehicles and lines. The reason is because of how limited Lucas was with the OT production, as far as money, time, and technology, to depict the intensity of ground warfare that was shown so easily in the prequels.

[MandalorianJF]

I think what he means is that we saw a lot more extensive warfare in the Clone Wars. We didn't see missiles and gunships in the OT either, nor straffing of enemy vehicles and lines. The reason is because of how limited Lucas was with the OT production, as far as money, time, and technology, to depict the intensity of ground warfare that was shown so easily in the prequels.

Well...Yes

The reason is because of how limited Lucas was with the OT production, as far as money, time, and technology, to depict the intensity of ground warfare that was shown so easily in the prequels.

But why didn't he modify everything when he modified the OT in 2001 (I think it was)?

[Tovor]

Well...Yes



But why didn't he modify everything when he modified the OT in 2001 (I think it was)?
You mean when he did the Special Editions in '97? I would say time constraints, due to pre-production on TPM. And remember, ILM was still creating the technology it would be using for the prequels. The battles we saw in ROTS could never have been done in TPM even if scripted, because it was the technology they used for TPM that evolved into what they needed for AOTC, and then for what they needed for ROTS; so it was hardly ready to use in '96 and '97. Just like ILM could not have made Terminator 2 before The Abyss, because it was the technology they invented to create the floating water tentacle that evolved into what they needed to make the liquid metal Terminator.

With that said, there is still hope that the long rumored 2007 or 2008 (unless it's been debunked already) Ultimate Edition release will have enhanced and added special effects and new added battle scenes to rival or match the prequels.

[Mothman]

You mean when he did the Special Editions in '97? I would say time constraints, due to pre-production on TPM. And remember, ILM was still creating the technology it would be using for the prequels. The battles we saw in ROTS could never have been done in TPM even if scripted, because it was the technology they used for TPM that evolved into what they needed for AOTC, and then for what they needed for ROTS; so it was hardly ready to use in '96 and '97. Just like ILM could not have made Terminator 2 before The Abyss, because it was the technology they invented to create the floating water tentacle that evolved into what they needed to make the liquid metal Terminator.

With that said, there is still hope that the long rumored 2007 or 2008 (unless it's been debunked already) Ultimate Edition release will have enhanced and added special effects and new added battle scenes to rival or match the prequels.

Where are added battle scenes necessary in the OT?

[MandalorianJF]

Where are added battle scenes necessary in the OT?

Battle of the Hoth & Battle of Endor
In battle of the Hoth you do not see AT-ATs land, AT-STs do any damage, and how AT-ATs completely destroy the base.
In Battle of Endor you do not see Cruisers fighting one another (there are just floating there) and you do not see how the rebel starships landed on Endor after the battle.

[Ojres]

I think what he means is that we saw a lot more extensive warfare in the Clone Wars. We didn't see missiles and gunships in the OT either, nor straffing of enemy vehicles and lines. The reason is because of how limited Lucas was with the OT production, as far as money, time, and technology, to depict the intensity of ground warfare that was shown so easily in the prequels.
That's true and I think GL wanted the Imperials to look somewhat weaker and easier defeated, maybe showing that they were getting lazy and fat :P . But, yes I definetly agree. It was probably the ability of animation rather than actually wanting the Imperials to look weaker.

[Mothman]

Battle of the Hoth & Battle of Endor
In battle of the Hoth you do not see AT-ATs land, AT-STs do any damage, and how AT-ATs completely destroy the base.
In Battle of Endor you do not see Cruisers fighting one another (there are just floating there) and you do not see how the rebel starships landed on Endor after the battle.

IMO, none of those things would really add anything to the film - especially what you suggest for the Battle of Endor. At that point in the film, it is moving from the large scale of the battle to the small scale of the personal confrontations between Luke, Mr. Vader, and the Emperor. Any additions of expanded battle scenes there would be a distraction from the personal story (and, I might add, the very crux of the entire saga).

:bye:

[DblDwn]

"What's the deal with Ovaltine? The jar's round. The lid's round. Why don't they call it Roundtine?"

[RollaFett]

^ "That's gold, Jerry, gold!"

As far as the question at hand goes, well, I think it's pretty simple, storywise. The clone army was fresher. They had been very recently produced and most likely were cloned directly from the source. As the years went by, well after Jango was dead and they were probably stuck using DNA samples instead of pure DNA, the future generations began to lack in quality, like a VHS tape that keeps getting dubbed over and over and over. The more generations, the worse the product.
Of course, this all pure speculation as I don't know if the stormtroopers we see in the OT are clones at all. The Empire may have ditched the clone plan at some point and started to recruit regular people.
In which case, that also could explain why they suck. Simply put, the clones were a superior military tool. Easily programmed and trained, while humans were more difficult to turn into a fighting soldier.
Whew! Ok, I'm offically all geeked out.

[Sarah-Leia]

There was some kind of thing going around that when Order 66 was issued, the clones' IQ levels actually decreased...:scratchchin: wonder if it's true...?

[Cassus Fett]

In Battle of Endor you do not see Cruisers fighting one another (there are just floating there)

were you watching a different film to me because im sure Lando tell them all to engage those star destroyers at point blank range and it shows Mon Cal Cruisers in battle with Star Destroyers

[DblDwn]

There was some kind of thing going around that when Order 66 was issued, the clones' IQ levels actually decreased...:scratchchin: wonder if it's true...?

Their firing accuracy decreased as well. :)

[Kam Solusar]

were you watching a different film to me because im sure Lando tell them all to engage those star destroyers at point blank range and it shows Mon Cal Cruisers in battle with Star Destroyers

You are not wrong. However, I think what they want is more of that, and less of the fighter action that heavily populates the space portion of the Battle of Endor. I could go either way myself. Capital ships battling is more impressive to read about on the page, though RotS had some good stuff (like when the Invisible Hand returned battery fire and hit the weapons bay of a Republic ship).

[Kam Solusar]

^ "That's gold, Jerry, gold!"

As far as the question at hand goes, well, I think it's pretty simple, storywise. The clone army was fresher. They had been very recently produced and most likely were cloned directly from the source. As the years went by, well after Jango was dead and they were probably stuck using DNA samples instead of pure DNA, the future generations began to lack in quality, like a VHS tape that keeps getting dubbed over and over and over. The more generations, the worse the product.
Of course, this all pure speculation as I don't know if the stormtroopers we see in the OT are clones at all. The Empire may have ditched the clone plan at some point and started to recruit regular people.
In which case, that also could explain why they suck. Simply put, the clones were a superior military tool. Easily programmed and trained, while humans were more difficult to turn into a fighting soldier.
Whew! Ok, I'm offically all geeked out.

I also think that it became simply easier to conscript soldiers at a certain point. It does make "aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" make more sense if you allow that stormtroopers are either a mix of clones and conscripts, or conscripts. Otherwise I think it would have been better to say "you're not a stormtrooper." Though in hindsight, she was acting awfully coy when saying that. Now that I think about it, I hate that scene. :scratchchin:

[DblDwn]

To be fair, when watching the saga in numerical order, we are lead to believe that the clone troopers, which clearly become stormtroopers, are clones of Jango Fett. That said, there is nothing, and I mean nothing, in the films to indicate or even remotely hint toward the fact that the stormtroopers are the very same clone troopers, only more recent "models," from the PT.

[Master Magnus]

To be fair, when watching the saga in numerical order, we are lead to believe that the clone troopers, which clearly become stormtroopers, are clones of Jango Fett. That said, there is nothing, and I mean nothing, in the films to indicate or even remotely hint toward the fact that the stormtroopers are the very same clone troopers, only more recent "models," from the PT.
Agreed. I've also posted the link to this George Lucas interview (http://movies.ign.com/articles/613/613366p1.html) before, but it's interesting.

[bruciarsi]

Isnt the imperial army the republic army with a better range of clones? I always thought they branched out abit and didnt just stick with the jango model.
I myself find the imperial army more impressive. They just look it. With the movies they look better to as with their mass gatherings it wasnt CGI it was a someone down there is every suit. With weapons TIE fighters are what you expect. An on mass rush of fighters. The ARC-170 is more a rebel fighter in my view. Kinda like the snow speeder. Plus it had a droid. The AT-AT just kicks arse, is there a better way to arrive in battle hmmm ok maybe a republic gunship. One tihng i really didnt like about the Republic army was stupid idea or marking their ranks rather to clearly. Looks cool but in combat the last thing your ememy needs is to be able to pick off your commanders that easily. Above trooper level yes the imperials give it away to but then so did the republic with the easy to spot jedi.
All in all i like the imperial army over the republic even if they had accuracy issues.

[Mothman]

.....I myself find the imperial army more impressive. They just look it. With the movies they look better to as with their mass gatherings it wasnt CGI it was a someone down there is every suit.....

Are you sure? I thought that in some shots, such as on the DSII hangar when the Emperor arrives in ROTJ, many of the Imperial guys in the scene were just a matte painting (the 1980's equivalent of CGI).


:bye:

[Master Magnus]

Are you sure? I thought that in some shots, such as on the DSII hangar when the Emperor arrives in ROTJ, many of the Imperial guys in the scene were just a matte painting (the 1980's equivalent of CGI).


:bye:
Well, matte paintings are still used and were extensively used in the prequels. The difference is that they're now digital instead of painted on glass which makes it possible to make 3D matte paintings. But you're correct, the Stormtroopers in that scene were mostly painted, only the first few rows were people in costumes. Another cheat which was (and still is used) used was to use cardboard cut-outs (such as in the ceremony scene in ANH were some of the people present are clearly cut-outs, but this was recomped for the SE and some of the stationary podracers in TPM).

[RollaFett]

To be fair, when watching the saga in numerical order, we are lead to believe that the clone troopers, which clearly become stormtroopers, are clones of Jango Fett. That said, there is nothing, and I mean nothing, in the films to indicate or even remotely hint toward the fact that the stormtroopers are the very same clone troopers, only more recent "models," from the PT.

Exactly. I'm sure GL thought of that as well, because he didn't hesitate to insert Temura Morrison's voice for Boba Fett (a terrible change, BTW) in ESB for the dvd release. If he wanted to still connect the stormtroopers to Jango, he could've very easily done the same thing for all of the stormtroopers' lines in the OT. He did not, though, and I think it makes it clear that even if they are clones, they're no longer Jango clones.

[Mothman]

Exactly. I'm sure GL thought of that as well, because he didn't hesitate to insert Temura Morrison's voice for Boba Fett (a terrible change, BTW) in ESB for the dvd release. If he wanted to still connect the stormtroopers to Jango, he could've very easily done the same thing for all of the stormtroopers' lines in the OT. He did not, though, and I think it makes it clear that even if they are clones, they're no longer Jango clones.

Doesn't GL say that the OT stormtroopers are clones of Jango in some of the PT commentary? (I think that he says this about the time that Jango hits his head on the door to Slave I just before he takes off in AOTC.)


:bye:

[bruciarsi]

Are you sure? I thought that in some shots, such as on the DSII hangar when the Emperor arrives in ROTJ, many of the Imperial guys in the scene were just a matte painting (the 1980's equivalent of CGI).


:bye:

ah yup my bad. still least a few of them were. makes a difference from cgi all over the show i reckon.