What If Obi-Wan Fought Sidious And Yoda Fought Anakin?

[faloy]

everything would have been over. yoda maybe would have killed anakin, and sideus would have killed obi-wan. that would have left yoda and sideus 1 on 1

o ****

[Cassus Fett]

Yoda would have destroyed Vader (as he know longer was Anakin) and as for Obi-Wan well his track record fighting Sith Lords isn't that spectacular, look at his duel with Darth Tyrannus, so Sidious would have destroyed him within a matter of minutes.

[faloy]

ya so that would have left off yoda and sideus, and that would have been bad

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Yoda would have destroyed Vader (as he know longer was Anakin) and as for Obi-Wan well his track record fighting Sith Lords isn't that spectacular, look at his duel with Darth Tyrannus, so Sidious would have destroyed him within a matter of minutes.

Yep, that would be the score. However, Sidious would have effectively won as he would then be surrounded by all his guards etc and Yoda would have had little chance of getting close enough to him to battle him. I suppose then Yoda would have watched over Luke but from then on the plethera of different outcomes would be pure speculation.

[ForceFlow]

yes but what if sideous was devistated by vader's death and have been in no shape to fight?

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Sidious was a Dark Lord of the Sith, although his plans may have been scuppered had Vader been killed, he would have used his anger to focus on the task in hand. He would have been well up for the battle with Yoda.

Having said that I am torn between the idea that Sidious was kind of Vader's father (and so did have some emotional attachment on a level as much as a Sith could have) and the fact that once Sidious had turned Vader to the darkside he no longer really fathered him or seemed to care (like he did on Mustafar when he touched Vader's face) as he had just used him. But either way, he wouldn't have been so devastated that he couldn't fight.

[Darth Massacrus]

for these two possibilities, the Lightsaber forms that each used must be taken into consideration. Let us start with Kenobi. He was a Master of Form 3 (Soresu), a defensive form that offers little in the way of stegnths
or weaknesses. Kenobi used it, but unlike almost any of the other Jedi and Sith's preferred Forms, it answered to no weakness inherent in him. Mace Windu told him as much, and gave specific examples: he used Vaapad/Juyo as a counter to his love of fighting and his inner darkness, Yoda used Ataru and a short lightsaber due to his short stature and age limitations, Dooku used Form 2 Makashi because of his love of dueling and elegance, but what weakness did Soresu answer to for Kenobi? BTW: this was why he of all Jedi was selected to take out Greivous, who knew all the forms, including Maces Vaapad. Against a Dark Lord of the Sith, he likely would have stood a VERY good chance even against Sidious' lethal combination of Juyo and Ataru, and Dark Lord knows what other forms. As for Yoda against Anakin, I would throw my money down on Yoda, though narrowly. Anakin was an expert of Form 5: Djem So, (as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen) which is an agressive, offensive form that can be rather overpowering and brutal. But against a Masterful Form 4 Ataru, it might be near impossible to land a killing blow, especially given Yoda's diminished profile. Basically, Yoda would take Anakin down, and Sidious and Kenobi would tie out.

[Fallen One]

for these two possibilities, the Lightsaber forms that each used must be taken into consideration. Let us start with Kenobi. He was a Master of Form 3 (Soresu), a defensive form that offers little in the way of stegnths
or weaknesses. Kenobi used it, but unlike almost any of the other Jedi and Sith's preferred Forms, it answered to no weakness inherent in him. Mace Windu told him as much, and gave specific examples: he used Vaapad/Juyo as a counter to his love of fighting and his inner darkness, Yoda used Ataru and a short lightsaber due to his short stature and age limitations, Dooku used Form 2 Makashi because of his love of dueling and elegance, but what weakness did Soresu answer to for Kenobi? BTW: this was why he of all Jedi was selected to take out Greivous, who knew all the forms, including Maces Vaapad. Against a Dark Lord of the Sith, he likely would have stood a VERY good chance even against Sidious' lethal combination of Juyo and Ataru, and Dark Lord knows what other forms. As for Yoda against Anakin, I would throw my money down on Yoda, though narrowly. Anakin was an expert of Form 5: Djem So, (as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen) which is an agressive, offensive form that can be rather overpowering and brutal. But against a Masterful Form 4 Ataru, it might be near impossible to land a killing blow, especially given Yoda's diminished profile. Basically, Yoda would take Anakin down, and Sidious and Kenobi would tie out.I truly believe anybody else besides Obi-wan would have fallen to anakin including yoda. Obi-wan had two things going for him 1. he was the greatest defensive saberist ever 2. the way things had work out with his relationship with anakin being his padawan and well being bascially family,brothers anakin was unfocused emotionally a mess not locked on to his concentrated anger ala the his second Duel with Dooku. With anakin's level of Djem So add in his Unmatched brutal power, strength etc, another offensive form like a Ataru or Vaapad/Juyo etc woulda had little to no answer for him but that's just what I believe..:yoda:

[Cassus Fett]

Just remembered what Sidious said to Yoda, "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us". so i guess Sidious would have been taken back by the death of Vader and possible have been killed by Yoda but then you have the problem with all the Clonetroopers across the galaxy.

[faloy]

so you guys are saying kenobi could kill yoda, no way. obi-wan is good with his lightsaber but yoda is very wise and good with the force. yoda even said to obi-wan that sideus was to powerful for him.

damn george lucas should have made an altenate ending.

[lovelucas]

cut and dry answer - there would be no OT -
Obi Wan and Anakin were no match for either of the real masters - but what would also be lost is the emotional investment of the original pairings which are the climactic duels of the PT - 2nd only to the duel of RotJ/father and son.

[Darth Massacrus]

Lord Sidious didnt count on Mustafar, and when he said that Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us, he was likely taunting Yoda with the fact that even if he died, there was still a more powerful and angry and desperate Sith Lord out there to pick up where he left off.

[nefertiti]

I can't even imagine the idea of Sidious and Obi-1 without cringing. Anakin against Yoda? Wow...true the story as it stands would have been toast...But what if Obi-1 did by chance take Sidious? That would leave Anakin against Yoda and Obi-1 - that might have been a very interesting duel.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

for these two possibilities, the Lightsaber forms that each used must be taken into consideration. Let us start with Kenobi. He was a Master of Form 3 (Soresu), a defensive form that offers little in the way of stegnths
or weaknesses. Kenobi used it, but unlike almost any of the other Jedi and Sith's preferred Forms, it answered to no weakness inherent in him. Mace Windu told him as much, and gave specific examples: he used Vaapad/Juyo as a counter to his love of fighting and his inner darkness, Yoda used Ataru and a short lightsaber due to his short stature and age limitations, Dooku used Form 2 Makashi because of his love of dueling and elegance, but what weakness did Soresu answer to for Kenobi? BTW: this was why he of all Jedi was selected to take out Greivous, who knew all the forms, including Maces Vaapad. Against a Dark Lord of the Sith, he likely would have stood a VERY good chance even against Sidious' lethal combination of Juyo and Ataru, and Dark Lord knows what other forms. As for Yoda against Anakin, I would throw my money down on Yoda, though narrowly. Anakin was an expert of Form 5: Djem So, (as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen) which is an agressive, offensive form that can be rather overpowering and brutal. But against a Masterful Form 4 Ataru, it might be near impossible to land a killing blow, especially given Yoda's diminished profile. Basically, Yoda would take Anakin down, and Sidious and Kenobi would tie out.

Whilst I agree with your statements regarding the lighsaber duelling prowess of each of the above, it must be remembered that Sidious was clearly far stronger than Obi Wan in the force. If Sidious knocked the lightsaber out of his hand it would be game over relatively quickly. Even if not, Sidious may have been able to use the force to harm Obi Wan even whilst fighting, rather like Dooku had at the beginning of ROTS.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I truly believe anybody else besides Obi-wan would have fallen to anakin including yoda. Obi-wan had two things going for him 1. he was the greatest defensive saberist ever 2. the way things had work out with his relationship with anakin being his padawan and well being bascially family,brothers anakin was unfocused emotionally a mess not locked on to his concentrated anger ala the his second Duel with Dooku. With anakin's level of Djem So add in his Unmatched brutal power, strength etc, another offensive form like a Ataru or Vaapad/Juyo etc woulda had little to no answer for him but that's just what I believe..:yoda:

I have to disagree there, I believe that Yoda was so wise he would just have maintained his calm and waited for Anakin to make a mistake due to his anger, just as Obi Wan had. Yoda's ability to move so quickly would also have been a big benefit in the Mustafar surroundings. Plus Dm made a good point that Yoda is a far smaller target to aim at so Anakin would have to be extremely accurate with a potential killer blow. I think Yoda's speed would have beaten Anakin's aggressive style.

[Darth Massacrus]

amen to that!:yoda:

[silverbolt]

obi one vs palps and yoda vs ani would equal dead obo one and dead ani and then yoda and palps would have fought and it would have landed everyone back to sqaure one only no vader and no obi one and so no later future for the rebellion in the form of luke

[Fallen One]

I have to disagree there, I believe that Yoda was so wise he would just have maintained his calm and waited for Anakin to make a mistake due to his anger, just as Obi Wan had. Yoda's ability to move so quickly would also have been a big benefit in the Mustafar surroundings. Plus Dm made a good point that Yoda is a far smaller target to aim at so Anakin would have to be extremely accurate with a potential killer blow. I think Yoda's speed would have beaten Anakin's aggressive style.Ataru is a aggressive form not like Soresu which is one of the reasons obi-wan abandoned it when Qui-gon was killed by maul. Obi-wan Felt Ataru form is falwed in its defensive capabilities Everyone has different Thoughts on this But I still believe any form other than Soresu would have fallen to anakins freakishly brutal From V including yoda and just to throw in the fact there would be little to no emotional handicap for anakin dealing with yoda as opposed to Obi-wan but that's just my thought. You can blame GL for making it a guessing game very unclear..

[Darth Massacrus]

Sidious and Kenobi= stalemate

Yoda and Skywalker= one less 'Chosen One'

ya gotta understand this

[Fallen One]

Sidious and Kenobi= stalemate

Yoda and Skywalker= one less 'Chosen One'

ya gotta understand this I never claimed to have the answer that's just what I believe I stated my belief's It was said by someone yoda would go defensive that's just not his style Ataru is a highly aggressive style it is in no way defensively based. I'm just wondering how yoda would deal with being driven back being forced into a defensive mode being overpowered like Dooku and Obi-wan was forced while Dueling with ROTS anakin. Now force strength yoda would have a edge due to the fact of his experince not because he is levels above anakin, anakin just lacked the experince and control over his power and emotions. But when it comes to saber dueling I just believe anakin would have taken yoda, styles make fights Ataru would leave quite a oppurtunity to a Form V user especially Anakin.

[Darth Massacrus]

assuming he could hit Yoda...

[nefertiti]

But what about the emotional aspect. Yoda had maturity and the ability to focus - to move away from the fear, anger...ect... . Anakin was adrenalin-on-the-run... that alone would have given Yoda one of several upper hands.

[Fish1941]

Yoda would have destroyed Vader (as he know longer was Anakin) and as for Obi-Wan well his track record fighting Sith Lords isn't that spectacular, look at his duel with Darth Tyrannus, so Sidious would have destroyed him within a matter of minutes.


Isn't it possible that we don't really know the answer to this question? Life has a way of surprising us, sometimes.

[faloy]

george lucas should make a video on this or somebody, because i would love to see this. i mean come on yoda has never fought anakin and obi-wan has neevr fought sideus. ("i don't think
)"

[Jedi Master 2k5]

Simple Yoda would have killed Vader and Obi-Wan would have died.

[faloy]

yes but what i am trying to figure out is what would happen if this did happen. but ya you are right. obi-wan would have died and so woul dhave anikan. damn

[Galileo]

I like to think that Sidious would have a hard time taking Obi-Wan down. I think OBI-Wan is not as caught up in the Jedi arrogance that Yoda seems to have been caught up in. It seems to me that Obi-Wan has a clearer vision of the force and therefore closer to it than Yoda.

I don't know if I'm making sense here?

[faloy]

your making sense but sidious is still powerful wether obi-wan has clear vision or not, so it really wouldn't make a difference.

i think yoda should have stayed and fought for a little while longer. i mean come on he did like block that force lightning coming at him. and it wan't just a little block he was like absorbing it.

[Galileo]

You'e right faloy. Yoda should have stuck it out a little longer. Can it be that he had a moment of self doubt?

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ He realised he couldn't win at that point in time so went into exile waiting for the right time to try and overthrow Sidious. Personally though, I never understood why he and Obi Wan didn't look for other Jedi who had survived and then form their own alliance to remove the Emperor.

[Galileo]

I think time was of the essence here. The more time went by the strong Sidious' hold over the Reuplic got. I think it was right to try and take him out ASAP. I do see you point though but Sidious would have had those surviving Jedi too. It's not a very clear cut situation.

[Jedi Master 2k5]

True^^^^^^

[Fish1941]

I think time was of the essence here. The more time went by the strong Sidious' hold over the Reuplic got. I think it was right to try and take him out ASAP. I do see you point though but Sidious would have had those surviving Jedi too. It's not a very clear cut situation.


I wonder if you had ever consider how the Senate would react if Yoda had killed Palpatine. How do you think they would have reacted. Unlike the Imperial Era by the time of ANH to ROTJ, Palpatine was not that popular. But he was very popular around the time of ROTS. That is why the Senate literally applauded his declaration as the galaxy's new emperor. How do you think they . . . and the galaxy at large, would have reacted if Yoda had killed Palpatine?

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ I think that most people would want to know exactly why he had been killed. And that could be when the proverbial hits the fan.......it would come down to different people's opinions of Sith Lords and I guess the perception of the myth of them. But I think from this point onwards it is just pure speculation - so any opinion is valid.

[faloy]

i never knew a siple question would lead to...................well this conversation.

so ya just like i said before. the galaxy would have beed screwed

[Jedi Master 2k5]

True.

[Fish1941]

I find it interesting that so many fans are willing to excuse Yoda's attempts to kill Palpatine, but at the same time tend to condemn Mace for trying to do the same.

Why does Yoda escape judgment and Mace doesn't? Because the former is a "beloved" figure from the OT?:blink:


And I wonder why many believe that the Senate and the galaxy's citizens would excuse Yoda if he had successfully killed Palpatine? The Jedi have no real evidence that Palpatine had started the war. As for the massacre at the Jedi Temple, word had already spread that the Jedi were attempting a major coup against Palpatine. What on earth did Yoda think he could get away with such actions without reaping the consequences? Had it ever occurred to him that Palpatine's cronies might take over the Senate . . . and that the surviving Jedi would be in danger of being wiped out, more than ever?

[leiaorgana]

^ I think that most people would want to know exactly why he had been killed. And that could be when the proverbial hits the fan.......it would come down to different people's opinions of Sith Lords and I guess the perception of the myth of them. But I think from this point onwards it is just pure speculation - so any opinion is valid.
I share your point of view and I believe you have a good point here.

[Obi-wannabe]

Yoda would have destroyed Vader (as he know longer was Anakin) and as for Obi-Wan well his track record fighting Sith Lords isn't that spectacular, look at his duel with Darth Tyrannus, so Sidious would have destroyed him within a matter of minutes.


His record with Sith lords is acually not bad it's his record against Dooku that's suspect.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

His record with Sith lords is acually not bad it's his record against Dooku that's suspect.

I thought that other than his first fight against Vader, Obi-Wan had lost all his battles with Sith Lords?

[Darill Cyllem]

I thought that other than his first fight against Vader, Obi-Wan had lost all his battles with Sith Lords?

What about Maul? Or does he not count as a "lord?"

[Jedi Master Harrison]

*Shoots himself for poor memory* Thank you Darill, I thought I must have been missing something! :) *Slopes off to read all other posts he has made today to save from further embarrassment*

[Obi-wannabe]

I thought that other than his first fight against Vader, Obi-Wan had lost all his battles with Sith Lords?
Ahh I missed the word Lord. But if you look at it this way Kenobi was the only Jedi with a respectable record against the Sith while remaining a true jedi in control of the force.

Yoda did not defeat Dooku and lost to Sideous.
Mace is a question mark, was he in control or was it a trick by Sideous.
Luke lost to Vader once, then defeated him by slipping to the darkside then back again.
Kenobi would have been killed by dooku 2x but he also defeated Maul and Vader and Grievous( not a Sith but close enough). I don't count the duel in ANH for obvious reasons.

[Kam Solusar]

Well, if you're counting Maul as a Lord (which you probably should if you count the first Vader fight as one, since Maul was a Sith far longer than Vader), he slipped visibly in that one. He was extremely pissed off after Maul runs Qui-Gon through. He's practically hopping behind the screen, waiting for it to drop, and he's visually angered when him and Maul lock sabers. I have to believe this was a conscious decision to mirror Luke's slip and recovery in RotJ.

[Balnazzar]

Very easily answered; Yoda would slay Anakin on that landing platform, and Obi Wan would be chopped apart by Sidius. And that would lead to yet traditional fight between Yoda and him.

[Fish1941]

Very easily answered; Yoda would slay Anakin on that landing platform, and Obi Wan would be chopped apart by Sidius. And that would lead to yet traditional fight between Yoda and him.


Very easily answered? How about . . . I don't know?

[Balnazzar]

Very easily answered? How about . . . I don't know?

Well, if that would be your answer then I suggest it's time for you to watch the movies or read the novels again and see that Yoda and Sidius were MASTERS and Obi-Wan and Anakin two Jedi punks with low scale of powers if compared with :yoda: and :holosid:.

[RollaFett]

Very easily answered? How about . . . I don't know?

Sure, that's one way to answer it. But sitting on the fence doesn't really lend itself to interesting discussion, right?

As for me, I'd say that Sidious would've beat up Obi-Wan, while Yoda would've made quick work of Anakin. Then, you have Sidious vs. Yoda again, and I see that fight playing out the same way as it already did. Although, I would hope that Yoda would try to get back into it somehow after his fall.

[lovelucas]

It is interesting speculation because the primary reason Anakin lost to Obi Wan was his anger towards him and his sense of betrayal by both Padme and Obi Wan....How angry could he be at Yoda? and if he wasn't angry wouldn't that make him more skilled, so to speak?

[RollaFett]

Ahhh...a very good point. That said, I have a sneaky suspicion that Anakin would've found some anger in him to direct towards Yoda. That seemed to be one of his gifts.

[Balnazzar]

It is interesting speculation because the primary reason Anakin lost to Obi Wan was his anger towards him and his sense of betrayal by both Padme and Obi Wan....How angry could he be at Yoda? and if he wasn't angry wouldn't that make him more skilled, so to speak?
Good point. But I still think it wouldn't have matered. Yoda was just too powerful, he would've just thrown Anakin in the boiling lava with his mega powerful force-push and say goodby to lord Vader.

[Kam Solusar]

Honestly, I don't think Anakin lost against Obi-Wan because of his anger. He is too enamored of his own powers and drunk with the power of the dark side and is entirely too over-confident. He's not calm when he tries to get to the embankment where Obi-Wan is, but he's not enraged either. He thinks he can do it quicker than Obi-Wan can react, and he's wrong. He pays for it.

[faloy]

honestly i think that yoda would have had a pretty good fight against anakin, he wouldn't have been as angry when he fought, because when he fought obi-wan he was pissed off, and he thought he was a big shot, and jumped at obi-wan when towled not too. he was so pissed off he kepted himself alive when being boiled in lava, come on. i think that anakin would have won, because yoda would back down, and try too get him too back down, but yet when he was talking to obi-wan, he said that anakin is lost too the dark side, so its a very hard thing too think about. all i'm saying is look at all these movies, you can clearly see that sith rules, and anger gives power. thats why the sith is so powerful. the reason why the sith is dead because luke spazed out on his father, and vader came too his sences. well there you have it thats my theory.
see ya

[Balnazzar]

honestly i think that yoda would have had a pretty good fight against anakin, he wouldn't have been as angry when he fought, because when he fought obi-wan he was pissed off, and he thought he was a big shot, and jumped at obi-wan when towled not too. he was so pissed off he kepted himself alive when being boiled in lava, come on. i think that anakin would have won, because yoda would back down, and try too get him too back down, but yet when he was talking to obi-wan, he said that anakin is lost too the dark side, so its a very hard thing too think about. all i'm saying is look at all these movies, you can clearly see that sith rules, and anger gives power. thats why the sith is so powerful. the reason why the sith is dead because luke spazed out on his father, and vader came too his sences. well there you have it thats my theory.
see ya

Your theory is two-faced; You talk about how The Sith are powerful and how they rule with hatred and you say that the anger gives them power.
On the other hand, you think Anakin would have won against Yoda if he was calm or something?

Well, here's my theory; Anakin is toasted, why? Because he is not a match for Yoda, angry or not angry. Let me remind you Yoda mastered almost all existing lightsaber techniques, so Anakin's style wouldn't have availed him much.
Of course Yoda would've tryed to persuade Anakin to come back to the light, and that would have enraged him, I think, and now you have the same Anakin that fought Obi-Wan.

[faloy]

yes but what if obi-wan died before yoda fought anakin, wouldn't yoda be like weak inside.........would that have messed him up.
wow there are a you of theorys for this question. i really don't know what would happen.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

yes but what if obi-wan died before yoda fought anakin, wouldn't yoda be like weak inside.........would that have messed him up.
wow there are a you of theorys for this question. i really don't know what would happen.

Yoda already knew that many Jedi had been killed and so, in perspective, losing one more would have made little difference. He would have used the force to compose himself and did not mourn death. So I don't think that Obi-Wan's death would have made Yoda any weaker if he was to fight Anakin.

[Darill Cyllem]

Yoda and Sidius were MASTERS and Obi-Wan and Anakin two Jedi punks with low scale of powers if compared with :yoda: and :holosid:.

:rofl: Jedi punks! That's fantastic!

I might quibble with the use of the term as applied to Obi-Wan, though, who was in fact a Jedi Master (though certainly not the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, as was Yoda) and - if you like to include information from the novelizations of the movies, Obi-Wan was the Master of Soresu (Form III), according to Master Windu, at any rate.

But i agree that Yoda would have defeated Anakin. Not as sure about Sidious vs. Obi-Wan, though Sidious, as much as i hate to admit it, probably would have come out on top. And then we'd be back to Yoda vs. Sidious again.

[Balnazzar]

I know that Obi-Wan is a Master,- and a good one , in my opinion.
My point was; "if compared with Yoda and Sidius" who were the oldest and supreme force-masters at that time.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Obi-Wan was a good Jedi Master, but we must remember that he was quite easily beaten by Dooku. Sidious was superior in power to Dooku, so I would conclude that it would be highly unlikely that Obi-Wan could defeat Sidious.

[Darill Cyllem]

Well, Anakin was trolloped pretty easily by Dooku the first time they met as well. Both did better for themselves in the second duel with Dooku. Arguably, Anakin only beat Dooku by using his anger. This is different than how Obi-Wan handled his duel against Grievous.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you, really, Balnazzar and JMH - I just love Obi-Wan! I admit, however, that Kenobi would've been history on the Invisible Hand had Anakin not been there.
In any case... i'm skating off topic... sorry.

[nefertiti]

Where I do agree that Anakin's feelings of betrayal add to his anger, he has also just broken his ties to the Jedi - by murder - and finished up the day with the Seperatists. This kid has more bedpost marks than...well.

He's already told Pad that he can kill the Emperor and they will rule the Empire. It's the power that causes him to loose to Obi-1 - his complete belief in the darkside. Ob-1 cautioned him as to the "higher ground" but in his arrogance Anakin couldn't or wouldn't believe what was strategically pointed out applied to him.

Obi-1 will always under those circumstances win over Anakin.

As Sidious might not always win over Obi-1. We saw in TPM Obi-1 delve into darkness to win over Maul. If he took that path again to defeat Sidious - he might win. But would loose as a Jedi. The question is then would Obi-1 have gone to darkness to defeat Sids?

Yoda might have defeated Anakin. He's watched this boy through the years. At some point in time, accepted Anakin as the Chosen One. Would he have questioned Anakin's behavior as the "will of the Force" and retreated from his personal duel with Anakin? When Yoda dies in ESB, he tells Luke that he - Yoda - is very strong in the Force. As the "representative" of the Force and leader of the Jedi, what did Yoda believe of the Force? It doesn't lie. It doesn't betray. Then wouldn't he have ran from Anakin as he did Sidious? Because this was the will of the Force.

[RollaFett]

We saw in TPM Obi-1 delve into darkness to win over Maul.

I whole-heartedly disagree! I'd go into more detail, but instead I'll simply provide you with a link to a thread I started 2 years ago about this very point: http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=10252

[nefertiti]

I've linked to your thread and will go over it, but isn't it a personal thing? Obi-1 had an attachment to Qui-gon - his mentor, now dying. It is reasonable to believe that he is angry and in that anger stands on a precipice between light and darkness. On this one I didn't read the book, so if the clues are there, I'm clueless :wink: - but I was mad that Qui-gon was down and I was only a participating audience member, I think Obi-1 was angry. Does being angry mean touching the darkness? Maybe not. And that's ok. But I think his anger - whether light or dark - gave him the additional "hump" he needed to finish off Maul.

But I promise, I'll read through your thread. :)

[RollaFett]

Yeah, I sugeest reading the thread. My disagreemant will make a lot more sense then, trust me.

[nefertiti]

Mr. Rollafett, sir...Aye! Aye!

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I thought I'd already written this somewhere but can't seem to find it. :scratchchin:

Obi-Wan initially used his anger and put Darth Maul on the back foot, but Maul was more skilled and so forced Obi-Wan over the edge, into a seemingly desperate position. It was only once Obi-Wan had centered himself again and let go of his anger that he was able to call on the force and make that leap and destroy Maul. So it was his calmness that actually won the fight, not his anger. He was not in control of his anger and had he carried on in that vein he would have been killed, undoubtedly.

[RollaFett]

^ Yup. That's pretty much what I say in the thread I was referring to. I would've said it again, but I want my sad little thread to get a little more attention. :um:

[Tovor]

I thought I'd already written this somewhere but can't seem to find it. :scratchchin:

Obi-Wan initially used his anger and put Darth Maul on the back foot, but Maul was more skilled and so forced Obi-Wan over the edge, into a seemingly desperate position. It was only once Obi-Wan had centered himself again and let go of his anger that he was able to call on the force and make that leap and destroy Maul. So it was his calmness that actually won the fight, not his anger. He was not in control of his anger and had he carried on in that vein he would have been killed, undoubtedly.

^ And that is exactly how I feel that Kenobi passed "the trials". He was tempted by the dark side and came back, and used the good side to overcome his enemy. Same as Luke falling toward the dark side against Vader, defeating him, and then coming back to the good side when Sidious tempted him further. That's how Luke passed the Jedi trials. And that, btw, is why I feel that Anakin failed his first trial in AOTC against Dooku, because he used his anger and hatred, but he never did overcome it before losing the fight.

[Mothman]

.....And that, btw, is why I feel that Anakin failed his first trial in AOTC against Dooku, because he used his anger and hatred, but he never did overcome it before losing the fight.

.....and then brags about how his powers have doubled when they meet for Round II in Episode III. Not very Jedi-like, IMO.



:bye:

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I think that was just a bit of pre-fight banter, I personally don't read too much into that statement, but of course, it could probably be taken either way.

[Tovor]

.....and then brags about how his powers have doubled when they meet for Round II in Episode III. Not very Jedi-like, IMO.



:bye:
Indeed.

I think that was just a bit of pre-fight banter, I personally don't read too much into that statement, but of course, it could probably be taken either way.
That too.

[Lord Tesla]

I should think the answer straight forward. If we assume they are all assembled in one place, then Obi-Wan folds like a shirt under Sidious's attack, ending up incapacitated or dead (and likely taking a nice lava bath, either way), after which Sidious and Vader turn to Yoda, and...

Well, the emperor would have had Yoda's ears for slippers, Vader would have had a green wakizashi to go with his lightsaber, and they would have ruled the galaxy evil-ly ever after. And Leia would probably have been named Shmi. Lord knows what Luke would have been stuck with, name-wise.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ Your faith in the Darkside misplaced, may be.

[Lord Tesla]

^ Your faith in the Darkside misplaced, may be.


It requires no faith at all, really. My modest embellishments aside, We know that Yoda is the most powerful of the Jedi Masters, and that Mace Windu was no slouch. Palpatine dispatched Windu. (Anakin helped, you say? Theater, I say: Palpatine was in little or no danger from Windu; the situation was engineered by Palpatine to force Anakin to choose between the Sith and the Jedi, nothing more.) Palpatine stood Yoda on his ear twice, after which Yoda made a break for it with Jimmy Smits. Obi-Wan was not going to win against Sidious. He couldn't even hold his own against Dooku. And Yoda, who couldn't stand against Sidious, managed to do just fine against Dooku.

With Obi-Wan out of the way, I don't see Sidious standing back while his new apprentice offed Yoda. Recall from Sidious's dialog in the canonical confrontation with Yoda, he had been looking forward to that moment.

And I don't see Yoda, who had his hands full trying for a draw against Sidious, fending off Sidious and Vader both. Never mind that if they were on Mustafar (as seemed to be the general assumption in the thread prior to my arrival, and has been my assumption throughout), there would have been at least Palpatine's personal guard, blasters at the ready.

Yoda was not going to survive that. I don't think Vader was going to get he roasting he did in the actual-so to speak--event.

It is somewhat more speculative to assert that Padmé would have survived and given birth to two healthy children, but hardly unwarranted. And if that happened, no doubt they would have been in the custody of Sidious and Vader, and Vader would have given them names. It seems not unlikely he would have given the girl the name of his beloved mother.

I've done more thinking about Luke, and perhaps there is a possibility there: Anakin could have named him after his best friend Kitster. Or maybe Watto...

[jedimasterElizabeth]

Obi-Wan versus Palpatine= Die
Yoda versus Anakin = Live and maybe sliced Anakin until his mother cannot even know which is his hands, legs, eyes and etc.

[borgmatrix]

Palpatine stood Yoda on his ear twice, after which Yoda made a break for it with Jimmy Smits.
Let's not forget that it was Sidious who made a break for it early on after he was blasted over his desk. That look of fear on his face was priceless. Even better was the desperation with which he searched for Yoda after narrowly avoiding that spinning pod. Best of all, maybe, was the the look of horror as Yoda channeled his lightening back at him. When it came to battling Yoda, the guy was a coward, displaying how little confidence he had himself as he panicked every single time the tide turned against him. If Sidious hadn't been fortunate enough to have a handle to grasp onto, it would have been him plummeting down to a hard landing, and defeat soon after.

You're right that that Obi-wan would have been a goner against Sids. But Anakin would have been fried just as quickly against Yoda. And unlike Obi-wan, Yoda would have finished him rather than leaving him for dead.

At that point, things would play out relatively the same. Sids would surround himself with protection deep within the Empire. So Yoda's chance to kill him would be gone. He'd have to go into hiding.

And, years later, maybe train Luke. Or Leia.

[Lord Tesla]

Let's not forget that it was Sidious who made a break for it early on after he was blasted over his desk. That look of fear on his face was priceless.

I just finished reviewing the duel. Sidious struck the first blow, remember. True, he did head for the exit, but reading the expression on his face at that moment as fear is rather a stretch. For one thing, it's extremely brief. Surprise, no more surely. There was surely no trace of fear when he produced his lightsaber seconds later.

Why did he head for the exit? Perhaps that "there are alternatives to fighting" was a part of the store of wisdom common to both the Sith and Jedi, who were alike in almost every way, we have been told. It's not as if the Sith were accustomed to proceeding by open confrontation during their millennial eclipse.

Even better was the desperation with which he searched for Yoda after narrowly avoiding that spinning pod.

Again, I just reviewed this. We see only the report on the search from the clones. Desperation is nowhere evident. Interest, understandably, in the fate of Yoda, but no desperation. He was more concerned with the imminent danger to Lord Vader he perceived, and even that seemed to disturb his composure little, if any.

Best of all, maybe, was the the look of horror as Yoda channeled his lightening back at him. When it came to battling Yoda, the guy was a coward, displaying how little confidence he had himself as he panicked every single time the tide turned against him. If Sidious hadn't been fortunate enough to have a handle to grasp onto, it would have been him plummeting down to a hard landing, and defeat soon after.

He did seem genuinely disturbed by Yoda's deflection of the Force lightening, but there's no evidence of cowardice that I can see. He drew his weapon, he faced his opponent, and gave as good as he got, and a little better: It was Yoda quit the field, not Palpatine. Neither did I see any sign of panic. An almost feral quality, a ferocity, similar to that shown in the confrontation with Windu, was evident, but that appeared to me as nothing more than a Sith giving reign to his anger and hatred in combat.

Neither is it evident to me that, even had he fallen to the ground, Sidious would have been defeated. He took everything Yoda threw at him, literally, and still kept coming. Yoda was the one who decided to call it a day.

You're right that that Obi-wan would have been a goner against Sids. But Anakin would have been fried just as quickly against Yoda. And unlike Obi-wan, Yoda would have finished him rather than leaving him for dead.

I will entertain that there was a chance for Yoda to have prevailed against Anakin, if it were a duel against Anakin alone. Perhaps I missed something earlier on, but if, as I understood it, they were all gathered in one spot, then I do not see it happening otherwise than this: Sidious defeats Obi-Wan, then Sidious and Anakin together send Yoda off to see Qui-Gon.

Even if we separate them, there is still a good chance for Anakin to have prevailed against Yoda, for this reason: His mind would have been clearer. Anakin did not seem to have the same intense, personal hatred of Yoda that he did of Obi-Wan; the master-apprentice relationship gone wrong was not there to overload his thinking. With greater power, and a clearer head, he might very well have done at least as well as Palpatine had.

[borgmatrix]

I just finished reviewing the duel. Sidious struck the first blow, remember. True, he did head for the exit, but reading the expression on his face at that moment as fear is rather a stretch. For one thing, it's extremely brief. Surprise, no more surely. There was surely no trace of fear when he produced his lightsaber seconds later.
It wasn't that brief. As he rose there was a definite mix of fear and horror. And when he produced his lightsaber, take note of exactly what he said to Yoda: "Darth Vader shall become more powerful than either of us."

Those aren't the words of someone who believes he's about to win a fight. He's basically saying, yeah, I might lose to you today, but it doesn't matter because Vader will be more powerful than either of us. The Sith still win. After all the laughing and cackling from him just moments later, you'd expect some boasts about his own strengths and abilities. If he has to reference Vader as his victory, then he's already bracing himself for death and defeat.

Why did he head for the exit? Perhaps that "there are alternatives to fighting" was a part of the store of wisdom common to both the Sith and Jedi, who were alike in almost every way, we have been told. It's not as if the Sith were accustomed to proceeding by open confrontation during their millennial eclipse.
Except that just seconds earlier, he was saying "I have waited a long time for this," while cackling in absolute delight. Plain and simple, Palpatine was afraid after Yoda's strike against him.

Again, I just reviewed this. We see only the report on the search from the clones. Desperation is nowhere evident. Interest, understandably, in the fate of Yoda, but no desperation. He was more concerned with the imminent danger to Lord Vader he perceived, and even that seemed to disturb his composure little, if any.
No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the moment immediately after he escapes the spinning pod Yoda sent back at him. After he lands, he searches desperately for a moment, having lost sight of Yoda. The expression on his face is similar to the one after he was thrown over his desk and completely opposite from the laughing/cackling whenever he felt he had the upper hand.

Neither is it evident to me that, even had he fallen to the ground, Sidious would have been defeated. He took everything Yoda threw at him, literally, and still kept coming.
Both were handling what the other threw at them. The big difference is that Yoda held his composure throughout. When he decided to "call it a day", it was a calculated move. With the "higher ground" aspect (which Lucas would come back to later with the Obi-wan/Vader fight) and the likelihood that clone troopers would soon arrive, Yoda's assessment was that he had lost his opportunity and so the "live to fight another day" aspect that you referenced came into play. Now, he might have been wrong, and that I might agree with. But it wasn't a move made out of fear or any sense of being overwhelmed.

Like I said, if Sids had been the one to take the fall and Yoda had something to grasp onto, the outcome would likely have been completely reversed.

My point, ultimately, is that Sidious was hardly kicking ass. It was a damned even fight but, if any advantage is to be given, it should be to Yoda. He held his composure, while with Sidious, there seemed the sense that he could crack at any time, ultimately ruled by fear. And is that surprising, given his commitment to the DS, which at heart is ruled by fear giving rise to anger and hate? It was the only thing that really separated them, Sidious betraying his inner fear and its hold over him, while Yoda maintained his mental discipline. Otherwise, they were near equal in ability and power.

I will entertain that there was a chance for Yoda to have prevailed against Anakin, if it were a duel against Anakin alone.
I'm assuming it'd be alone, since I'm assuming similar circumstances to that of the movie, but with Yoda tracking Vader to Mustafar instead of Obi-wan. And there's more than a chance here for Yoda. Obi-wan very likely was holding back, since he didn't quite seem to have it in him to kill his former friend. For Vader, fueled by rage and sense of betrayal, to still not be able to overcome him really doesn't speak well for his chances against Yoda.

Even if we separate them, there is still a good chance for Anakin to have prevailed against Yoda, for this reason: His mind would have been clearer. Anakin did not seem to have the same intense, personal hatred of Yoda that he did of Obi-Wan; the master-apprentice relationship gone wrong was not there to overload his thinking. With greater power, and a clearer head, he might very well have done at least as well as Palpatine had.
That's possible. But you also have a clear-headed Yoda as well, not burdened by friendship with the former Jedi. Vader's still young. And even without Obi-wan's presence there, the anger over Padme's refusal to join him would still be weighing on him. I don't see the young Sith, who's an emotional mess in the middle of something he never truly wanted, being able to overcome the focused and disciplined grandmaster of the Jedi.

[Kommandant Felix]

It requires no faith at all, really. My modest embellishments aside, We know that Yoda is the most powerful of the Jedi Masters, and that Mace Windu was no slouch. Palpatine dispatched Windu. (Anakin helped, you say? Theater, I say: Palpatine was in little or no danger from Windu; the situation was engineered by Palpatine to force Anakin to choose between the Sith and the Jedi, nothing more.) Palpatine stood Yoda on his ear twice, after which Yoda made a break for it with Jimmy Smits. Obi-Wan was not going to win against Sidious. He couldn't even hold his own against Dooku. And Yoda, who couldn't stand against Sidious, managed to do just fine against Dooku.

With Obi-Wan out of the way, I don't see Sidious standing back while his new apprentice offed Yoda. Recall from Sidious's dialog in the canonical confrontation with Yoda, he had been looking forward to that moment.

And I don't see Yoda, who had his hands full trying for a draw against Sidious, fending off Sidious and Vader both. Never mind that if they were on Mustafar (as seemed to be the general assumption in the thread prior to my arrival, and has been my assumption throughout), there would have been at least Palpatine's personal guard, blasters at the ready.

Yoda was not going to survive that. I don't think Vader was going to get he roasting he did in the actual-so to speak--event.

It is somewhat more speculative to assert that Padmé would have survived and given birth to two healthy children, but hardly unwarranted. And if that happened, no doubt they would have been in the custody of Sidious and Vader, and Vader would have given them names. It seems not unlikely he would have given the girl the name of his beloved mother.

I've done more thinking about Luke, and perhaps there is a possibility there: Anakin could have named him after his best friend Kitster. Or maybe Watto...


Let's analyze this again. First of all, Windu had Sidious. That's needs to be established first. Sidious is not some all powerful Sith that pwns everyone. Sidious, was defeated in a lightsaber duel by Windu, and could only defeat him after His lightsaber hand was removed. Also, according to the official novelization of ROTS, Mace Windu had used the Force to find Palpatine's shatterpoint: which was his own fear. Because of this, we must deduce that Mace did indeed best Palps in a fair fight. This proves that Sidious is not all powerful.

Furthermore, Yoda was not absolutely destroyed in the battle with Sidious. on the contrary, I would say that should the location be different, the outcome could have been quite different. My good friend Borgmatrix has already pointed out the weaknesses of Sidious in terms of his fear and cowardice in the battle, and his attempted fleeing of the battle scene before it truly began.

Now moving on to a duel, I do not think that Anakin would prevail against Yoda. Remember, Yoda was the top Jedi Master of the time, and his knowledge of the Force was much more advanced than Anakin's. Furthermore, he was fast. Sidious and Dooku could never win in an all out lightsaber duel against Yoda...Sidious only won because he had Force lightning. Anakin had no such weapons, just anger and relatively Minor Force abilities.

I'm also not sure about the Obi-Wan vs Sidious deal. While Obi-Wan was not strong enough to take on Sidious, was it because of his poor lightsaber skills? I somehow don't think so. Remember, Dooku was a practitioner of the Form II Makashi style of lightsaber dueling, which was meant for lightsaber on lightsaber action. That was why Obi-Wan was destroyed so easy. I think that Obi-Wan would be defeated, but probably because he lacked the abilities to combat Sidious Force abilities (his lightning would probably have been too strong for Obi-Wan to deflect, even with a lightsaber.).

Now,the only question remains is whether Yoda could take on both Sidious and Anakin. I believe so, given the right conditions. Let's remember, Palps wasn't the fastest guy in the world. I don't think the two Sith would work together well, each one trying to beat Yoda for themselves. Also remember, Anakin was feeling particularly traitorous towards Palps at that time. Two Jedi usually work much better together than two Sith, so Yoda and Obi-Wan would be there to complement each other, while the two Sith would each be working separately, trying to steal the glory for themselves. Hypothetically, if Obi-Wan was defeated, then Yoda and Anakin would have raced around the complex, leaving Palpatine in the dust. Yoda could definitely take Anakin on Mustafar, and would probably end up either killing him outright in a lightsaber fight, or pushing him into the lava with a Force push. Anyways, then it would have came to Yoda vs Sidious on Mustafar, which it could go either way.

In conclusion, I would just like to reiterate that Yoda would not necessarily be defeated by a Sidious/Vader combo...especially if Obi-Wan were there for support.

[Lord Tesla]

It wasn't that brief. As he rose there was a definite mix of fear and horror. And when he produced his lightsaber, take note of exactly what he said to Yoda: "Darth Vader shall become more powerful than either of us."

Actually, it is extremely brief, he said, in full, "You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us," and it still amounts to no more than a moment of surprise, expressionwise. The dialog certainly has nothing to do with defeat. He's saying just this, I can't be defeated, even if you prevail here, because Lord Vader will remain.

Those aren't the words of someone who believes he's about to win a fight.

Nope, in fact, they are exactly that. And he did win.

He's basically saying, yeah, I might lose to you today, but it doesn't matter because Vader will be more powerful than either of us. The Sith still win. After all the laughing and cackling from him just moments later, you'd expect some boasts about his own strengths and abilities. If he has to reference Vader as his victory, then he's already bracing himself for death and defeat.

Why would we expect boasts at that particular moment? And the brace for death and defeat, well, that's at least in part the Sith way. There are only two, they advance by killing their masters. A master falls, a master rises--and Palpatine can look forward to the most powerful successor of all rising to take his place. Doesn't mean he was scared, doesn't mean he was planning on losing, only that he was prepared for death, should it come.


Except that just seconds earlier, he was saying "I have waited a long time for this," while cackling in absolute delight. Plain and simple, Palpatine was afraid after Yoda's strike against him.

I fail to see how it follows that Palpatine was afraid. What he had been waiting for, I'm sure he was prepared to see done by other means, should he prove unable to achieve it himself.

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the moment immediately after he escapes the spinning pod Yoda sent back at him. After he lands, he searches desperately for a moment, having lost sight of Yoda. The expression on his face is similar to the one after he was thrown over his desk and completely opposite from the laughing/cackling whenever he felt he had the upper hand.

Lose sight, lose the fight. Same in dueling as in flying fighters. Wouldn't you try to get a fix on your opponent in such a circumstance? Wouldn't anyone with any sense? That is not fear, that is sound tactics.

Both were handling what the other threw at them. The big difference is that Yoda held his composure throughout. When he decided to "call it a day", it was a calculated move. With the "higher ground" aspect (which Lucas would come back to later with the Obi-wan/Vader fight) and the likelihood that clone troopers would soon arrive, Yoda's assessment was that he had lost his opportunity and so the "live to fight another day" aspect that you referenced came into play. Now, he might have been wrong, and that I might agree with. But it wasn't a move made out of fear or any sense of being overwhelmed.

"Into exile I must go. Failed I have." I don't hear any fear when I run the disk, but I don't sense him thinking he has a snowball's chance against Palpatine, either.

Like I said, if Sids had been the one to take the fall and Yoda had something to grasp onto, the outcome would likely have been completely reversed.

Why? Palpatine would have had two things going for him, had the fight continued, weapons Yoda did not possess: Force Lightning and Clones.

My point, ultimately, is that Sidious was hardly kicking ass. It was a damned even fight but, if any advantage is to be given, it should be to Yoda. He held his composure, while with Sidious, there seemed the sense that he could crack at any time, ultimately ruled by fear. And is that surprising, given his commitment to the DS, which at heart is ruled by fear giving rise to anger and hate? It was the only thing that really separated them, Sidious betraying his inner fear and its hold over him, while Yoda maintained his mental discipline. Otherwise, they were near equal in ability and power.

If he didn't kick ass, it was the only thing he didn't kick. Yoda was beaten. Palpatine had to work at it, but he did it. Saying Yoda had the advantage because he was composed...well, it seems to assume Palpatine was trying to retain a Jedi-like detachment and composure, which, for a dark side master, seems highly unlikely.


I'm assuming it'd be alone, since I'm assuming similar circumstances to that of the movie, but with Yoda tracking Vader to Mustafar instead of Obi-wan. And there's more than a chance here for Yoda. Obi-wan very likely was holding back, since he didn't quite seem to have it in him to kill his former friend. For Vader, fueled by rage and sense of betrayal, to still not be able to overcome him really doesn't speak well for his chances against Yoda.

Hmm. Obi-Wan, fighting the most powerful being in the galaxy, held back? And not only lived, but maimed the aforementioned most powerful being in the galaxy? As to whether or not he had it in him to kill Anakin: he maimed him, watched him burn, and then walked away. Not the same thing as killing him, but it's the next best thing. Not only that, there were several blows dealt in the duel previous to that point that, had they not been parried, would surely have resulted in Anakin's death. I think Obi-Wan was giving it his all.

[Lord Tesla]

Let's analyze this again. First of all, Windu had Sidious.

No. Sidious had Windu.

That's needs to be established first. Sidious is not some all powerful Sith that pwns everyone. Sidious, was defeated in a lightsaber duel by Windu, and could only defeat him after His lightsaber hand was removed.

That was theater, staged, to force (no pun intended) Anakin to make his choice. Palpatine was in very little danger.


Also, according to the official novelization of ROTS, Mace Windu had used the Force to find Palpatine's shatterpoint: which was his own fear. Because of this, we must deduce that Mace did indeed best Palps in a fair fight. This proves that Sidious is not all powerful.

Only if you credit the novels as canon, and ignore the evidence of the film. Considering that the Jedi's ability to use the Force, especially when it came to perceiving their dark side opponents, was severely limited at that point, I'd be surprised if Master Windu could have found his own hip pockets with both hands and visual aids. If, and I say if, he detected anything, it was what Palpatine permitted him to detect.

Furthermore, Yoda was not absolutely destroyed in the battle with Sidious. on the contrary, I would say that should the location be different, the outcome could have been quite different. My good friend Borgmatrix has already pointed out the weaknesses of Sidious in terms of his fear and cowardice in the battle, and his attempted fleeing of the battle scene before it truly began.

The fear is not proven. See my reply to your good friend. :yoda:

Now moving on to a duel, I do not think that Anakin would prevail against Yoda. Remember, Yoda was the top Jedi Master of the time, and his knowledge of the Force was much more advanced than Anakin's. Furthermore, he was fast. Sidious and Dooku could never win in an all out lightsaber duel against Yoda...Sidious only won because he had Force lightning. Anakin had no such weapons, just anger and relatively Minor Force abilities.

Say not, "Palpatine only won because he had Force lightning." Say rather, the duel ended when Palpatine blew the lightsaber out of Yoda's hand. Prior to that, Palpatine showed no trouble dealing with Yoda. It is more accurate. As to his speed, it took him a great deal longer to get that disk spinning and flying against Sidious than it took Sidious to break it free and hurl it at him in the first place. He was quick, but Sidious seemed unhampered by this fact.

And calling Anakin's Force abilities minor... Obi-Wan told him that he would soon be made a master. Would the Council have done that had he been still a minor talent?

[RollaFett]

Ok, I'll quickly address the Mace/Sidious fight.
Mace had Sidious.
Yes, Sids was playing him and perhaps not goving that duel everything he had in order to force Anakin's hand, however, the fact remains that Sids is playing a very risky game at this point. He's risking his life on the assumption that Anakin will show up and betray Mace. It pays off for Sids, yes, so it's a calculated risk, but it's a risk nonetheless.
It also makes perfect sense for Sidisous to do this. He's waited decades to unveil his master plan, and it all hinges upon the behavior of one person. He knows that he must put his life on the line to have his plan work. If Anakin fails to show up and betray Mace, then Sidious is going to die. At that point, there would've been no point to for him to live anyway, as his plan already had failed.

Moving on...I agree with Borg and KF. Sidious wanted very little to do with Yoda after he got knocked on his ass. His attempt to cut and run makes that VERY clear. Now, did he hold his own once he was forced to fight? Sure he did. Hell, he controlled a good deal of the fight as well, but it doesn't mean that he was on his way to winning. When he's hurling the senate pods at Yoda, you can see that Yoda is tracking him, moving in, ready to fully engage Sidious instead of attacking from afar in a cowardly fashion.
Again, once Yoda gives him a taste of his own medicine by catching and throwing a pod right back at him, you see how quickly Sidious runs away. Yoda didn't do that.
Then, when Sidious disarms Yoda (which was a great move for him, BTW), Yoda still stands his ground and battles back against Sidious with his own dark lightening to a stalemate that ultimately knocks them both on their asses.
At this final point, Yoda sees that victory (victory meaning that he has to kill Sidious) is going to be near impossible to gain and lives to fight another day.
However, none of that means that Sidious won that fight, or was on his way to winning.
At best, that fight was a draw.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Palpatine was in very little danger.




Only if you credit the novels as canon, and ignore the evidence of the film. Considering that the Jedi's ability to use the Force, especially when it came to perceiving their dark side opponents, was severely limited at that point, I'd be surprised if Master Windu could have found his own hip pockets with both hands and visual aids. If, and I say if, he detected anything, it was what Palpatine permitted him to detect.


Say not, "Palpatine only won because he had Force lightning." Say rather, the duel ended when Palpatine blew the lightsaber out of Yoda's hand. Prior to that, Palpatine showed no trouble dealing with Yoda. It is more accurate. As to his speed, it took him a great deal longer to get that disk spinning and flying against Sidious than it took Sidious to break it free and hurl it at him in the first place. He was quick, but Sidious seemed unhampered by this fact.

And calling Anakin's Force abilities minor... Obi-Wan told him that he would soon be made a master. Would the Council have done that had he been still a minor talent?

Sidious in very little danger? A Jedi Master holding a lightsaber to his throat? You're a brave man if you think that is little danger!

I believe sensing shatterpoints is not a similar force ability to that of sensing the darkside in someone, so there is no reason why Mace could not sense Sidious' shatterpoint, after all, it was his 'special talent'. I think perhaps you should have a little more respect for the Jedi's powers! :nahnah:

Of course it took Yoda more time to lauch the Senate seat at Sidious - he had to first stop it from hitting him, then manoeuvre it up against gravity.

I think Rolla's summary is a more reflective account of what actually happened in the film, despite some possible ambiguity in interpretations.

[borgmatrix]

Actually, it is extremely brief, he said, in full, "You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us," and it still amounts to no more than a moment of surprise, expressionwise.
Oh, yeah, it's surprise. But tempered with something more. Again, he's cackling in delight on moment, standing there and allowing Yoda to get up, completely savoring the domination he's about to maintain. And then the next, he's been blasted over the desk and immediately bolts. LT, it's as clear as daylight who's the coward here. Yoda didn't run for it after he took the lightening hit. He got back up and dished things right back. A very different response than from Sidious, who tried to escape.

The dialog certainly has nothing to do with defeat. He's saying just this, I can't be defeated, even if you prevail here, because Lord Vader will remain.
The words spoken are of tremendous importance. No one, especially an arrogant, powerful Sith Lord who's manipulated events on such a large scale over years, brings up a newly acquired apprentice as his boast of victory if he truly believes in himself and his strength. In my career training, I've been taught to look for the underlying reason behind a patient's visit and the words they speak. Here, with Palpatine, there's an undercurrent of fear.

And as I said, that's hardly surprising. Fear is at the heart of their path. As Palpatine said earlier, all who have power fear losing it. He was seeing the end of his reign as Emperor flashing before his eyes.

Nope, in fact, they are exactly that. And he did win.
But not in the way you make out. It's a dead even fight and luck brings victory for Sidious, not any sense of brilliance or overwhelming power.

Lose sight, lose the fight. Same in dueling as in flying fighters. Wouldn't you try to get a fix on your opponent in such a circumstance? Wouldn't anyone with any sense? That is not fear, that is sound tactics.
I never said there was anything wrong with seeking out his opponent. It's his demeanor and fear as he's searching that I'm pointing to.

"Into exile I must go. Failed I have." I don't hear any fear when I run the disk, but I don't sense him thinking he has a snowball's chance against Palpatine, either.
As I said, he makes a calculated decision. At this point, on the lower ground and with troopers probably on the way, he feels he's lost his opportunity and decides to leave. It's completely different motivation from Sidious' attempt to flee earlier. But when it comes to facing Sidious mano-y-mano, Yoda doesn't fear him. Sidious hits him with lightening, Yoda gets up and blasts him right back. Sidious throws pods at him. Yoda stops one, spins it, and sends it right back at him. Sidious knocks his saber away and sends more lightening. Yoda takes it in his hands and sends it right back at Sidious. Yoda stands more than a snowball's chance. He was right with Sids throughout. But at the end, circumstances had changed to his disadvantage, in his opinion, and so he left.

Did Sidious actually defeat him? No. It was more a draw. But as far as the bigger picture, Sidious remains Emperor and has won the war.

Why? Palpatine would have had two things going for him, had the fight continued, weapons Yoda did not possess: Force Lightning and Clones.
Yoda can handle lightening, as he proved. Clones would prove overwhelming, but that has nothing to do with Sidious. My point, again, is that Sidious as an individual is nothing special compared to Yoda. If I had to pick one as having a slight edge, again, its Yoda for his mental discipline.

If he didn't kick ass, it was the only thing he didn't kick. Yoda was beaten. Palpatine had to work at it, but he did it. Saying Yoda had the advantage because he was composed...well, it seems to assume Palpatine was trying to retain a Jedi-like detachment and composure, which, for a dark side master, seems highly unlikely.
It has nothing to do with being Jedi-like. Mental focus is huge in any physical, one-on-one competition. One of my favorite sports to watch is tennis. You have two guys committed against one another. So often, as these matches go on, talent doesn't end up being the deciding factor. It's how composed one can remain, how well they can control their minds. That's why Federer dominates the tennis world. He's damn near unflappable, almost nothing shaking him. Meanwhile, almost everyone he faces has at least a moment of mental collapse, Feds is all over it. He's great, talent-wise, but what separates him is is near unwavering focus. All other things being equal, as they pretty much were with Yoda and Sidious, mental discipline is the deciding factor.

Hmm. Obi-Wan, fighting the most powerful being in the galaxy, held back? And not only lived, but maimed the aforementioned most powerful being in the galaxy? As to whether or not he had it in him to kill Anakin: he maimed him, watched him burn, and then walked away. Not the same thing as killing him, but it's the next best thing. Not only that, there were several blows dealt in the duel previous to that point that, had they not been parried, would surely have resulted in Anakin's death. I think Obi-Wan was giving it his all.
I'm not saying he was being casual. But he was inhibiting by not ultimately wanting to fight Vader. And the Sith Lord, on the other hand, was an emotional mess, not entirely focused, and very much still "the learner." We saw that in the sheer stupidity of his final move. That, and not anything particularly special from Obi-wan, lead to the maiming. I don't care how powerful he was. His raw talent couldn't match Obi-wan's experience. Vader hadn't yet achieved his full potential. And, sadly, never would.

[Lord Tesla]

Sidious in very little danger? A Jedi Master holding a lightsaber to his throat? You're a brave man if you think that is little danger!

First, he was in more danger aboard General Grievous's ship.

Second, the saber was right where he wanted it.

Third, later, Palpatine blasted the saber out of Yoda's hand with Force Lightning. If he could do that to Yoda, mightiest of the Jedi Masters, could he not have done the same to Windu, whenever he pleased?

Fourth, I must be brave, then, because I do think that. :yoda:

It was theater. Designed to influence Anakin.

I believe sensing shatterpoints is not a similar force ability to that of sensing the darkside in someone, so there is no reason why Mace could not sense Sidious' shatterpoint, after all, it was his 'special talent'. I think perhaps you should have a little more respect for the Jedi's powers! :nahnah:

I really am going to have to read Shatterpoint it seems, so I can find out about Mace's special talent. I've had rather a low opinion of these EU phenomena ever since encountering Quinlan Vos's psychometry gimmick way back in...well, one of those pre-AOTC comics. They all seem redundant to me, and to trivialize the power of the Force.

And it wasn't just their dark-guy-finding powers that were reduced. Windu spoke of their ability to use the Force, without qualifiers.

Of course it took Yoda more time to lauch the Senate seat at Sidious - he had to first stop it from hitting him, then manoeuvre it up against gravity.

Maybe. I am willing to entertain the possibility that that accounts for the difference.

I think Rolla's summary is a more reflective account of what actually happened in the film, despite some possible ambiguity in interpretations.

Rolla's summary is a model of decorum and moderation. (Appropriate, that.) I do however differ with it at certain points. Which I'm sure surprises no one.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Third, later, Palpatine blasted the saber out of Yoda's hand with Force Lightning. If he could do that to Yoda, mightiest of the Jedi Masters, could he not have done the same to Windu, whenever he pleased?

It was theater. Designed to influence Anakin.

I thought that when the lightsaber was blasted out of Yoda's hand that it was because of the angle the lightning hit it at - and the short range, simple physics. No-one is denying that Sith lightning is a potent weapon, but it didn't seem that Sidious could do exactly as he wanted with it - Mace held it off long enough using his lightsaber. At the point when Mace is holding it to Sidious' throat, with Jedi reflexes, the guy is dead if he strikes. But as has been said Sidious took a gamble on Anakin, which turned out to be a brilliant one.

I'm still not convinced how much theatre was involved in that fight, that was never mentioned in the novel and I don't come to that conclusion through watching the film. Mace was very strong and often underestimating an opponent can have disasterous consequences for the stronger party. Whilst Sidious was obviously overconfident with the darkside, was he really stupid enough to underestimate Mace's abilities? He certainly didn't underestimate Yoda - hence he tried to flee from him after Yoda's force push.

[RollaFett]

Rolla's summary is a model of decorum and moderation. (Appropriate, that.)

Aww shucks. Stop it now or you'll make me blush. :blush:

At the point when Mace is holding it to Sidious' throat, with Jedi reflexes, the guy is dead if he strikes. But as has been said Sidious took a gamble on Anakin, which turned out to be a brilliant one.


Hell, forget about holding it to his throat. Once Sidious had fallen and Mace moved in, if he had went for his throat immediately instead of just holding it at his throat, ballgame's over.

I'm still not convinced how much theatre was involved in that fight, that was never mentioned in the novel and I don't come to that conclusion through watching the film.

Well, I actually do agree with Tesla here, to a point. While, as an audience, we're not directly told anything to indicate that Sidious had a plan, it's made pretty clear throough the rest of the films how much Sidious does, in fact, control. So, it's not exactly a stretch to come to that conclusion.
Now, I'll reiterate that whether or not he had a plan in place still doesn't mean that he wasn't risking his life to pull it off. It's an extremely risky plan considering who he is fighting at the time.

[VADERGOTH]

well for a start if obi-wan had fought sidious he would have been fried to a crisp in seconds even against tyranus he had to use his light sabre to absorb his lightning

and attack of the clones tells you that anakin has had lightsabre traing against yoda when obi-wan tells anakin that he would rival master yoda as a swordsman if he practised his sabre more than his wit

and anakin beleives he allready does so with that confidence and knowing that he beat dooko so easy i think his arrogance would see him throgh

[Raganork8]

Sorry guys Lord Telsa is right...


Think of it; Palpatine KNEW that Anakin was going ton tell the Council, had he feared they were going to kill him he would have skipped town right away and blew up the council with a star destroyer or something.


When Mace knocks the lightsaber from him and has the saber to his throat Palpatine is most at home. There was no way Palpatine was going to die there, he had too much going for him. Anakin came in and Palaptine had it all in the bag. Just because he's convincing don't confuse that for weakness. Here's a man who's been planning this for so many years, I'm sure he's had every possible tangent thought out, and I'm sure Mace Windu was one of the common problems he thought he'd be faced with.


If Palpatine destroyed Windu where would that leave Anakin.

Just as Telsa has so wonderfully put; he knocked the lightsaber out of Yoda's hand, there's a totally different degree of Force lightning in places. we see it do nothing to windu, then knock yoda across the room then project Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand. Clearly in my opinion; Palpatine was playing the two sides against each other and using himself as a good bait.

[Raganork8]

and attack of the clones tells you that anakin has had lightsabre traing against yoda when obi-wan tells anakin that he would rival master yoda as a swordsman if he practised his sabre more than his wit

and anakin beleives he allready does so with that confidence and knowing that he beat dooko so easy i think his arrogance would see him throgh


WHAT?

What Obi Wan was saying is that Anakin is so witty that if he applied that to Saber training he'd be amazing. not that he's ever fought Yoda before.


and when did Anakin Beat Dooku easily? Even in Attack of the clones, he seemed to have some trouble. The man fought off two Jedi, Yoda, and then Obi Wan again and came out victorious Until, choppy mc choppers came and cut his hands off.

Dooku beat them and was a powerful jedi and opponent.

But yes, Obi wan would have probably got really badly beaten.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Sorry guys Lord Telsa is right...


Think of it; Palpatine KNEW that Anakin was going ton tell the Council, had he feared they were going to kill him he would have skipped town right away and blew up the council with a star destroyer or something.


When Mace knocks the lightsaber from him and has the saber to his throat Palpatine is most at home. There was no way Palpatine was going to die there, he had too much going for him. Anakin came in and Palaptine had it all in the bag. Just because he's convincing don't confuse that for weakness. Here's a man who's been planning this for so many years, I'm sure he's had every possible tangent thought out, and I'm sure Mace Windu was one of the common problems he thought he'd be faced with.


If Palpatine destroyed Windu where would that leave Anakin.

Just as Telsa has so wonderfully put; he knocked the lightsaber out of Yoda's hand, there's a totally different degree of Force lightning in places. we see it do nothing to windu, then knock yoda across the room then project Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand. Clearly in my opinion; Palpatine was playing the two sides against each other and using himself as a good bait.

Whilst I agree that this is a possibility, IMO there is nothing in the film, nor the novel, which confirms that this was the case. Interesting, seeing as the novel recounted how Dooku thought the battle v Anakin & Obi-Wan was easy, until he realised they were fooling him - and of course he got beaten.

If someone with Jedi reflexes has a lightsaber at your throat, he can kill you before you can even raise your arms and use Sith lightning. Was there some degree of theatre, likely. At the moment Mace held the lightsaber to Sidious' throat though, he was in real danger. But as has been previously stated, Sidious gambled and it paid off.

[Raganork8]

But; in what you say the novel contradicts the movie.

Dooku wasn't being toyed with in the movie, he was actually kicking obi wan's ass and then Anakin's anger brought him to his end; with some prodding from Palpatine.

There's no proof in the film of what you're saying now; all we see is that Mace has him on the ground with a lightsaber to his throat.

Some time later Mace is dead and Palpatine gains control of the galaxy.

but everything into play here...

Anakin heard Palaptine's voice in the jedi council chamber; we don't know if this was a actual voice or a memory Anakin had; but, we do not hear Palpatine say those words at any point of the film.

It's my belief that Palpatine KNEW that Anakin was coming and would pick Padme over the council and that Mace would initially hesistate in killing him because is isn't in fact, the jedi way. That was all he need.

Plus don't assume Palpatine does not have Jedi reflexes; Mace does and so does Palpatine, from the moment Anakin stepped in the room Mace was at the disadvantage even with the lightsaber at his throat, Palpatine may have had something else planned for Mace.


"Please don't kill me I don't want to die"

very unbelievable and seemed to be played up for Anakin, For a sith I didn't sense much fear in Palaptine at that moment and I think it was because he had everything under control.

[borgmatrix]

If someone with Jedi reflexes has a lightsaber at your throat, he can kill you before you can even raise your arms and use Sith lightning. Was there some degree of theatre, likely. At the moment Mace held the lightsaber to Sidious' throat though, he was in real danger. But as has been previously stated, Sidious gambled and it paid off.
Keep in mind that Mace went to the office to arrest Palpatine, not kill him. That intent didn't change until after Palpatine was disarmed yet continued to attack. So the danger wasn't as great as it might have appeared. Mace wasn't going to kill him, re-iterating to the downed Palpatine, "You are under arrest, my Lord." There was no intent to kill yet, so Palpatine had time.

Yeah, Sidious was taking a risk. But he was controlling things to such a great degree. The whole thing was a set up. Primarily to ensnare Anakin, and secondarily to frame the Jedi.

As I've said many times in the past, Mace was pretty much dead before he walked in the room. Was it possible he was going to win? Yeah. But events were greatly stacked against him and he didn't know it. He just didn't have a clue. And so he was pretty much screwed.

[lovelucas]

welllllllllll - he could have chosen to arrest him.
He doesn't know it's futile.

But I do agree - Mace's fate was sealed before he even arrived.
and you and I will continue to disagree if his fate would have been different had he brought Anakin with him, on his side, as part of the posse.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ How would he arrest him? Not a possible option unfortunately.

[lovelucas]

as I mentioned, (sorry edited) with an enlarged posse, which would have included Anakin

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Wouldn't Anakin have made exactly the same decision though? I mean, the decision he made was a pretty major one, I don't see it would change dramatically just because he was included as part of the posse.

[Raganork8]

^ I'm not sure

At least Palpatine would have been alive, the only that made Anakin do what he did was because he feared Palpatine would have been destroyed and he would never learn the secret.

There has to be a part of him that wanted to arrest Palpatine because he did tell Mace.

[Kommandant Felix]

Sorry guys Lord Telsa is right...


Think of it; Palpatine KNEW that Anakin was going ton tell the Council, had he feared they were going to kill him he would have skipped town right away and blew up the council with a star destroyer or something.


When Mace knocks the lightsaber from him and has the saber to his throat Palpatine is most at home. There was no way Palpatine was going to die there, he had too much going for him. Anakin came in and Palaptine had it all in the bag. Just because he's convincing don't confuse that for weakness. Here's a man who's been planning this for so many years, I'm sure he's had every possible tangent thought out, and I'm sure Mace Windu was one of the common problems he thought he'd be faced with.


If Palpatine destroyed Windu where would that leave Anakin.

Just as Telsa has so wonderfully put; he knocked the lightsaber out of Yoda's hand, there's a totally different degree of Force lightning in places. we see it do nothing to windu, then knock yoda across the room then project Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand. Clearly in my opinion; Palpatine was playing the two sides against each other and using himself as a good bait.

Let's remember, folks. Yoda was a midget. He doesn't have the same amount of strength that Mace Windu had wielding in terms of lightsaber combat. That's why he was so fast. We see that when Mace and Palpatine were dueling, Palpatine was having trouble keeping up with Windu's strength when their sabers were locked, whereas Sidious had no trouble matching Yoda's strength when they dueled. So, knocking the lightsaber out of Yoda's hands is more plausible, since he is the weaker person. Besides that, Yoda had just handed on a pod when he was hit, so he was caught mostly off guard. We see from Mace's quick reactions in ROTS that he was somewhat ready for a sneak attack from Palpatine. Furthermore, let's also remember that though Palpatine was a powerful Sith Lord, Windu was also a Jedi Master, second only to Yoda.

Second of all, Palpatine couldn't have just blown up the Jedi Temple, simply because too many unanswered questions would have been left hanging, and the Senate, while corrupt, would never have stood for it unless there were reasonable evidence to suggest that the Jedi were trying to kill him.

Now comes to the place of conjecture. I personally believe that Palpatine did indeed set up Anakin, however, I think that his fear dueling Windu was real. The looks on his face not only indicate fear, but then the question would come up: What if Anakin did not arrive in time? He would be dead. Besides that, Mace was extremely aggressive with a lightsaber, and the novelization clearly points to the fact that Mace pwned Palpatine by using his fear against him (you can argue with validity all you want, but that's what the novelization of the film said and that book elaborates on the story). However, that being said, I think that Sidious did start to manipulate the situation once Anakin got there. The obvious, "Help me!" line was a ploy to suggest he was helpless. Also, while Mace was arguing with Anakin ROTS showed a sneaky look by Palpatine, one suggesting that he was playing it up a bit. Check it out for yourselves. Play the scene over again, taking close inspection of the faces of the duelists.

But let's just not necessarily say that Mace was weaker than Palpatine, because all evidence points to the contrary. While Palps is a powerful Sith, it doesn't mean he knows exactly what was going to happen. It was a hunch, a daring gamble, at best that saved his life.

[Raganork8]

Let's remember, folks. Yoda was a midget. He doesn't have the same amount of strength that Mace Windu had wielding in terms of lightsaber combat. That's why he was so fast. We see that when Mace and Palpatine were dueling, Palpatine was having trouble keeping up with Windu's strength when their sabers were locked, whereas Sidious had no trouble matching Yoda's strength when they dueled. So, knocking the lightsaber out of Yoda's hands is more plausible, since he is the weaker person. Besides that, Yoda had just handed on a pod when he was hit, so he was caught mostly off guard. We see from Mace's quick reactions in ROTS that he was somewhat ready for a sneak attack from Palpatine. Furthermore, let's also remember that though Palpatine was a powerful Sith Lord, Windu was also a Jedi Master, second only to Yoda.

Second of all, Palpatine couldn't have just blown up the Jedi Temple, simply because too many unanswered questions would have been left hanging, and the Senate, while corrupt, would never have stood for it unless there were reasonable evidence to suggest that the Jedi were trying to kill him.

Now comes to the place of conjecture. I personally believe that Palpatine did indeed set up Anakin, however, I think that his fear dueling Windu was real. The looks on his face not only indicate fear, but then the question would come up: What if Anakin did not arrive in time? He would be dead. Besides that, Mace was extremely aggressive with a lightsaber, and the novelization clearly points to the fact that Mace pwned Palpatine by using his fear against him (you can argue with validity all you want, but that's what the novelization of the film said and that book elaborates on the story). However, that being said, I think that Sidious did start to manipulate the situation once Anakin got there. The obvious, "Help me!" line was a ploy to suggest he was helpless. Also, while Mace was arguing with Anakin ROTS showed a sneaky look by Palpatine, one suggesting that he was playing it up a bit. Check it out for yourselves. Play the scene over again, taking close inspection of the faces of the duelists.

But let's just not necessarily say that Mace was weaker than Palpatine, because all evidence points to the contrary. While Palps is a powerful Sith, it doesn't mean he knows exactly what was going to happen. It was a hunch, a daring gamble, at best that saved his life.


Its not a coincidence that Palpy loses the fight the exact moment Anakin Comes in...up until that point he was doing pretty well.

[lovelucas]

what a cunning, manipulative, and thoroughly nasty villian is Palpatine. Yet you have to admire his resolution, patience, his intelligence and his ability to predict what the Jed Council will do, what Anakin will do, what nearly all the senators will do and this after he's already formed all the alliances with everyone else.

"I love the Republic" - with such sincerity.
What a piece of work.

[borgmatrix]

Now comes to the place of conjecture. I personally believe that Palpatine did indeed set up Anakin, however, I think that his fear dueling Windu was real. The looks on his face not only indicate fear, but then the question would come up: What if Anakin did not arrive in time?
Palpatine was taking a risk, and that involved being able to stay alive long enough for Anakin to arrive. I wouldn't say there was any fear from Palpatine when dueling Mace, but certainly concentration and intensity, because his defense had to hold up. He might not have been pressing offensively, since he didn't want to defeat Mace, but his defense had to be for real.

As for Anakin not arriving in time, remember that later in the senate chamber, Sidious could sense that Vader was in trouble on an entirely different planet. So naturally, he could sense Anakin when they were much closer. Sids still had to make certain he wasn't killed, but that was made easier by being able to sense where Anakin was so that he knew when he could ease back and let himself be overpowered. As rags mentioned, he happens to go down just as Anakin's arriving. Doubtful that's a coincidence. He also just happens to lose his saber out the window, making him appear completely defenseless when Anakin strides in. Not saying the saber thing was pre-planned, but I'm sure with the window blown out, he saw the opportunity to hide the fact there had even been a fight by getting rid of his weapon.

[VADERGOTH]

my opinion on palpatin vs mace windu is that palpatine was useing himself as bait thats why he allowed anakin to tell the jedi of his identety .knowing that yoda is on kashykke and obiwan on utapau that mace was cheif jedi on corruscant .mace had never trusted anakin and never made any attempt to hide it even when anakin warned him that palpatine is to powerfull mace shooed anakin away palpatine knew of this rift and played it thats why he told anakin that if they kill him any chance of saving padme would be lost anakin will act in whatever manner to keep padme from dying love is his pashion .

anakin told windu he needed him alive just befour mace attempted the killer blow anakins response was a reflex to his fear if he didnt all he ever loved would be gone his mother padme the baby the prospect would have played significant part but when the realisation of what had just happened kicked in he knew the only thing that meant any thing any more was padme jedi wouldnt make him a master wouldnt give access to the higher teachings or seek awnsers of traditional knolage palpatine was offering everything he ever wanted the chance to save people (his dream as a child was to become a jedi and come back and release all the slaves )

mace wasnt leaving that room alive no matter what happened palpatine had lay in the shadows as darth sidious for years twisting and corrupting with one hand pretendding to try to heal the republic as a senitor and eventually chancelor he had to go through all the schooling and programs to to be a politichion the whole time knowing what is happening to his republic befour it does wasnt gonna let a jedi like mace windu spoil that

[Lord Tesla]

I thought that when the lightsaber was blasted out of Yoda's hand that it was because of the angle the lightning hit it at - and the short range, simple physics. No-one is denying that Sith lightning is a potent weapon, but it didn't seem that Sidious could do exactly as he wanted with it - Mace held it off long enough using his lightsaber. At the point when Mace is holding it to Sidious' throat, with Jedi reflexes, the guy is dead if he strikes. But as has been said Sidious took a gamble on Anakin, which turned out to be a brilliant one.

Firstly, proximity may have had something to do with Sidious's ability to disarm Yoda with Force lightning, but I don't recall anything special in the angle. And, if it was indeed a matter of proximity, was it not the case that he was at least as close to Windu as he was to Yoda?

Secondly, limb-movement is not necessary to use the Force. Or at least it was in the OT: Vader sent a good lot of debris against Luke, pulled some of it from the walls, without ever changing his stance, if memory serves, or even changing his grip on his saber. Seems to me Palpatine was also able to remove Luke's binders without lifting a finger in ROTJ. That being the case, even assuming the inferior technique of lightsaber deflection to be adequate in that situation, or Sidious's force Lightning to be otherwise limited, what was to keep him from blasting Windu with a Force push without raising a finger, or bombarding him with some office furnishings? Even if he were to have thrown him off balance, disturbed his concentration for only an instant, it should have been sufficient, and a sufficient surprise to Windu, to allow Sidious to slip from the trap. Windu might have had Jedi reflexes, but recall that Sidious was also a master, and possessed of Force-enhanced reflexes as well.

Thirdly, it wasn't much of a gamble on Anakin, because 1) Palpatine understood him very well, enough to have a very good idea how he would respond; 2) rumor has it he was pretty good with the Force, and foresaw quite a lot; 3) If Anakin didn't show, or wouldn't throw in with him, Windu would have been easily dispatched.

The only real danger was that Anakin wouldn't turn. But how great a danger was that? Palpatine knew Anakin had a well-developed dark side. Palpatine also knew that Anakin believed he needed Palpatine in order to save Padmé, and that Padmé was what counted first, last and foremost with Anakin.

I'm still not convinced how much theatre was involved in that fight, that was never mentioned in the novel and I don't come to that conclusion through watching the film. Mace was very strong and often underestimating an opponent can have disasterous consequences for the stronger party. Whilst Sidious was obviously overconfident with the darkside, was he really stupid enough to underestimate Mace's abilities? He certainly didn't underestimate Yoda - hence he tried to flee from him after Yoda's force push.

Where is the proof of Mace's tremendous abilities? His duel with Palpatine was shorter, and less intense, than Yoda's with Palpatine (and yet Palpatine seemed less affected after facing Yoda than after facing Mace). And at the end of that duel, the man who had appeared weak, worn-out, beaten, roared back, in a heartbeat, roaring "UNLIMITED POWER!" while frying and flinging Windu out the window. Once a decision had been reached by a certain Anakin Skywalker.

I don't think he underestimated Windu at all. He knew exactly what he was dealing with in Windu, how far he could push, how far he could relent, to put Windu where he wanted him for the big moment.

[Lord Tesla]

Oh, yeah, it's surprise. But tempered with something more. Again, he's cackling in delight on moment, standing there and allowing Yoda to get up, completely savoring the domination he's about to maintain. And then the next, he's been blasted over the desk and immediately bolts. LT, it's as clear as daylight who's the coward here. Yoda didn't run for it after he took the lightening hit. He got back up and dished things right back. A very different response than from Sidious, who tried to escape.

Then daylight is a very murky matter indeed. What motivated Palpatine? What factors did he weigh in deciding to attempt to avoid th fight? It is easy enough to call it cowardice, but I call it calculation. It has been said that discretion is the better part of valor. Might not even a Sith master put aside thoughts of reprisal and personal satisfaction, of vengeance, when the culmination of a thousand years of plotting is at hand, and dependent for success on his survival, long enough at least to establish the Empire, and see that his new apprentice is well enough along the road to complete the journey, even should his master perish?

I suggest that Palpatine's motivation is neither less nor more cowardly or brave than Yoda's, when Yoda decided to quit the field. And there was no cowardice shown in battle.


The words spoken are of tremendous importance. No one, especially an arrogant, powerful Sith Lord who's manipulated events on such a large scale over years, brings up a newly acquired apprentice as his boast of victory if he truly believes in himself and his strength. In my career training, I've been taught to look for the underlying reason behind a patient's visit and the words they speak. Here, with Palpatine, there's an undercurrent of fear.

I am not sure how experience gained with patients with hidden (mysterious, perhaps ulterior? I am trying to determine the exact content of "underlying") reasons applies to Sith Lords and Jedi Knights contending for control of the Galaxy.

I am however quite certain that these words are open to more interpretations than just that, than that they indicate a lack of resolve or confidence or courage. The Sith philosophy must be factored in. But even without that, they can very easily be read as the words of a man trying to undermine an opponent's confidence and resolve. They can be read as being in the vein, "Heads I win; tails you lose." Pointing out the futility of an opponent's continued resistance seems to me good psychological warfare, so to speak.

And as I said, that's hardly surprising. Fear is at the heart of their path. As Palpatine said earlier, all who have power fear losing it. He was seeing the end of his reign as Emperor flashing before his eyes.

Seems you see fear everywhere. The Jedi say, "Fear is the path to the dark side." Okay but what do you find once you get there? Is fear really all the Sith find at their destination? I find that hard to credit.


But not in the way you make out. It's a dead even fight and luck brings victory for Sidious, not any sense of brilliance or overwhelming power.

Obi-Wan famously said, "There's no such thing as luck." Show me the luck involved. Define it.

As I said, he makes a calculated decision. At this point, on the lower ground and with troopers probably on the way, he feels he's lost his opportunity and decides to leave. It's completely different motivation from Sidious' attempt to flee earlier.

I believe I addressed this above. The motivations are indeed quite similar, only the outcomes vary. As Palpatine taught Anakin, the Sith and the Jedi are the same in almost every respect...

But when it comes to facing Sidious mano-y-mano, Yoda doesn't fear him. Sidious hits him with lightening, Yoda gets up and blasts him right back. Sidious throws pods at him. Yoda stops one, spins it, and sends it right back at him. Sidious knocks his saber away and sends more lightening. Yoda takes it in his hands and sends it right back at Sidious. Yoda stands more than a snowball's chance. He was right with Sids throughout. But at the end, circumstances had changed to his disadvantage, in his opinion, and so he left.

Which is different from what Lord Sidious did how, precisely? There was one difference, Sidious made a decision at the outset of a confrontation, when there was still some doubt as to which way it might go; Yoda made a decision only after he had been beaten, or pushed close enough to it to see its inevitability.

What had changed in Yoda's circumstances was that he had realized he could not defeat the Emperor, he did not have the strength or the staying power.

Did Sidious actually defeat him? No. It was more a draw. But as far as the bigger picture, Sidious remains Emperor and has won the war.

A draw? No. No way. Palpatine walks away ruling the galaxy. Yoda crawls away...with a one-way ticket to Dagobah.

Yoda can handle lightening, as he proved. Clones would prove overwhelming, but that has nothing to do with Sidious. My point, again, is that Sidious as an individual is nothing special compared to Yoda. If I had to pick one as having a slight edge, again, its Yoda for his mental discipline.

Advantage it may be, but...he still lost. He got out with his life, but surviving does not a victory make, or even a draw. All Yoda's objectives, unmet. Palpatine's...look pretty well taken care of.

I like Yoda. He's my favorite Jedi. I'd much rather make a stand with Yoda than with Palpatine. I don't like it that he lost, but, still...

He lost.


It has nothing to do with being Jedi-like. Mental focus is huge in any physical, one-on-one competition. One of my favorite sports to watch is tennis. You have two guys committed against one another. So often, as these matches go on, talent doesn't end up being the deciding factor. It's how composed one can remain, how well they can control their minds. That's why Federer dominates the tennis world. He's damn near unflappable, almost nothing shaking him. Meanwhile, almost everyone he faces has at least a moment of mental collapse, Feds is all over it. He's great, talent-wise, but what separates him is is near unwavering focus. All other things being equal, as they pretty much were with Yoda and Sidious, mental discipline is the deciding factor.

I still don't see where there's a failing in Sidious here. Where is the evidence he wasn't focusing as a Sith should?


I'm not saying he was being casual. But he was inhibiting by not ultimately wanting to fight Vader. And the Sith Lord, on the other hand, was an emotional mess, not entirely focused, and very much still "the learner." We saw that in the sheer stupidity of his final move. That, and not anything particularly special from Obi-wan, lead to the maiming. I don't care how powerful he was. His raw talent couldn't match Obi-wan's experience. Vader hadn't yet achieved his full potential. And, sadly, never would.


Vader never reached his full potential...?:blink:

Came back from the dark side. Killed the Emperor. Balanced the Force. Did more to ensure the safety and liberty of the galaxy in that one afternoon than the entire rebellion managed to do in two decades. Survived death and was restored to the good graces of his masters.

We should all underachieve so well.

[Raganork8]

While You are right Telsa Vader never reached his Full physical potential and was limited by his lack of appendages.

Thats not to say that he didn't achieve much; but, rather that he did not reach the pinnacle that he could have, had he not made some of the bad choices he did.

[RollaFett]

A draw? No. No way. Palpatine walks away ruling the galaxy. Yoda crawls away...with a one-way ticket to Dagobah.



Where else was Yoda going to go? Palps ensured that he had to get out of dodge by betraying the entire Jedi order, remember? There was noplace left on Coruscant, that's for damned sure.
As for Palps, well he had the seucrity of having the entire Republic/Empire behind him, as well as a few stormtroopers to watch his back. He didn't need to hide.
As far as overall objectives go, yes, Palpatine definately came out ahead. There's little point in arguing that. However, the only absolute victory Yoda could have obtained in the fight was by killing Palps. Not killing him didn't necessarily equate to defeat either.
The fight, in and of itself, is a draw to me. No winners, no losers.
There is another line of thought to consider, though. By not killing Palpatine, Yoda has failed and the Empire & the Dark Side shroud exists for over 2 decades.
By not killing Yoda, however, Palpatine allows a mentor for an unknown enemy (Luke) to survive. 20+ years later, that unkown enemy shows up, and by being able to help turn Vader, ultimately destroys Palpatine. Yoda ultimately did wind up playing an important role in Palpatine's demise. Sure, it was a couple of decades late, but he did wind up winning.

Imagine if Luke had known of the Yoda/Palpatine history and just before Vader dropped him down that reactor shaft if Luke had said the following: "Hey Emperor, remember the little green jedi named Yoda that you thought was long gone? Well, he helped train me as a Jedi. Without him, I wouldn't be here now, and my dad wouldn't be about to kill your wrinkled butt. Hmmm...now why was he able to train me? Oh, that's right, because you weren't able to kill him 20 years ago. Sayonara sucker!"

That's a scene I'd like to see inserted in the next edition of ROTJ.

[Tovor]

No. Sidious had Windu.
That was theater, staged, to force (no pun intended) Anakin to make his choice. Palpatine was in very little danger.
Ok, I'll quickly address the Mace/Sidious fight.
Mace had Sidious.
Yes, Sids was playing him and perhaps not goving that duel everything he had in order to force Anakin's hand, however, the fact remains that Sids is playing a very risky game at this point. He's risking his life on the assumption that Anakin will show up and betray Mace. It pays off for Sids, yes, so it's a calculated risk, but it's a risk nonetheless.
It also makes perfect sense for Sidisous to do this. He's waited decades to unveil his master plan, and it all hinges upon the behavior of one person. He knows that he must put his life on the line to have his plan work. If Anakin fails to show up and betray Mace, then Sidious is going to die. At that point, there would've been no point to for him to live anyway, as his plan already had failed.

Sidious in very little danger? A Jedi Master holding a lightsaber to his throat? You're a brave man if you think that is little danger!

I agree with Lord Tesla. Sidious was in no danger.

I offer into evidence the following lines:
"Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."
"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."
And I am going to call into evidence, if the court will grant me leeway, a movie completely seperate from the Star Wars films, Back to the Future; as well as the Star Trek movies and TV series, which had a great many storylines involving time travel and time scapes being altered by the actions of time-traveling. I know, I hear you all groaning, but bear with me a moment. Back to the Future I and II both showed us how the characters had a tremendous affect on both the present and the future, when they changed or carried out a certain action. Many of the time-travel storylines in ST showed us the same thing.

I know, I know, I know, that's not even remotely related to the SW storylines so what's the point of me bringing it up? I just wanted to remind everyone of the conceptof the present having the potential to be so altered simply by traveling to the past and merely changing one minute action. I'm not suggesting that Sidious was a time traveller and had already visited the future, nor that he had travelled to the past to change the timeline and affect the present. No...but he was so good at seeing into the future that he was a master of manipulating every step leading up to whichever point he wanted to cause to happen, that it was as good as time travelling, for his sensory perception was the time traveller.

Yoda told Luke that seeing the future with certainty was difficult, for "always in motion is the future." But not for Sidious. Because Sidious did not merely sit idly watching the future unfold in his visions; no, he manipulated the present at the same time to see how the future changed in relation to each action that he carried out. So he knew for a fact that if he did this in the present, that would happen in the future; while if he did this thing that way instead of this way, that other thing would happen in the future (Like when Marty McFly saw the images in the photograph vanish or return according to his actions), because he saw it happen in his unfolding visions, which were themselves always adapting and changing in motion with the changing future; the future that he himself was causing to change.

Allow me to paraphrase Sid's statement to Luke in ROTJ:
"Everything that has transpired, and everthing that continues to unfold, has done so and continues to do so according to my design which I planned and set in motion well in advance."

So my point it, he wasn't taking any sort of risk by "letting" Mace overcome him, hoping on Anakin to appear at just the right moment. He knew exactly to the tee when Anakin was going to run into the room, because he had seen it happen already in his visions, as he had shaped the future previously by manipulating Anakin and the Jedi order perfectly along with his unfolding visions. He literally had the foresight of merely needing to glance at the chess piece he might consider moving next, to see in his mind's eye exactly how his opponent was going to respond on the chess board.

It wasn't a risk on whether or not Anakin would arrive at the right time, nor whether he would react toward Mace they way he did. Sidious had already pushed the button, pulled the lever so to speak