What was Mace supposed to do??

[RollaFett]

In the "Notes about ROTS" thread, lovelucas posted this in regards to Anakin chopping off Mace Windu's hand:


regarding the decapuhanding of Mace - Anakin did not arrive with the intention of killing Mace or even wounding him - he came there to ensure that Palpatine would not be killed so that
#1 - he would stand trial (and Anakin does state this to Mace)
#2 - and that by living, Palpatine will be able to deliver his promise - "only through me......will you discover the secret of saving Padme"

If only Mace hadn't stepped so close to the dark side himself....if only he could have trusted what Anakin told him.....if only he hadn't been so intent on preserving his beloved Republic ...talk about clouded vision.


Anyway, that got me thinking. What choice did Mace possibly have at that point?
If he lets down his guard against Palpatine, he's toast. Hell, he did for just a second when Anakin arrived and Palps took full advantage with the force lightning and Mace barely was able to defend himself.
Also, what exactly did Anakin say that Mace was supposed to trust?

Now, I will agree that Mace easily was dancing around the Dark Side during the closing moments of that battle, but that was what the fight called for. He saw how easily Palpatine took out 3 Jedi masters at the beginning when all they did was announce that he was under arrest. Yes, their lightsabers were drawn, but they didn't move to attack. (note: in the novel, Palpatine's killing of the Jedi in this scene is even more calculated and evil. Hell, it's pretty cool in fact)
Upon seeing how dangerous Palpatine is, Mace is left with little choice but to attempt to kill him no matter what. There is no way that he feels he can trust Palpatine to be arrested and sit in a cell at that point. Especially after he had just tried to fry him with the lightning. That was the deciding factor. Besides, there is no way that he can possibly believe he can be contained. He had just defeated him in lightsaber battle, and had him at his mercy. Then, he's set to arrest him. After the sneak lightning attack, that's it. It's time to die.
"He's too dangerous to be left alive." Mace says, and he couldn't have been more right.

[lovelucas]

Well IMO it all began with Mace refusing to believe Anakin – the old IF what you say is true THEN you will have earned my trust….and this after Anakin came to him with the news that the Sith the Jedi were looking for was Palpatine….the same Palpatine the Jedi Council accused Anakin of being too close to; the same Palpatine they asked him to spy on…..Now here he is, delivering the news to Mace and his posse….and it would have made all the difference IF they had believed that Palpatine is the Sith Anakin has revealed him to be. Forewarned they would have been instead of Mace not believing Anakin is telling the truth. And if Mace would have believed Anakin he would have had Anakin as part of his posse – 4 Jedi masters and the chosen one? Palpatine wouldn’t have stood a chance. Instead Mace sends Anakin to purgatory to wait, even after Anakin told him he would need his help. It all goes back to Mace and his refusal to believe.

But at this point when it is too late for the posse – they’re all dead – Mace could have chosen not to assume that strike position that prompted Anakin’s immediate reaction in order to save Palpatine. Mace might have chosen to mention to Anakin that 3 Jedi have just been slain by Palpatine and that he needs Anakin’s help to take Palpatine into custody, but Mace was convinced a fair trial would have been impossible so he became the dark trilogy of judge, jury and executioner. If he and Anakin had joined forces the Star Wars story would have completely been changed. But the bottom line is, we really don’t want it changed, do we?

[borgmatrix]

And if Mace would have believed Anakin he would have had Anakin as part of his posse – 4 Jedi masters and the chosen one? Palpatine wouldn’t have stood a chance.
Well, honestly, they should have been able to handle Palpatine by themselves. I don't know what those other two "Masters" were doing, but their deaths might be the most embarrassing I've ever seen on screen.

But in regards to Mace's attitude toward Anakin, remember that he did accurately sense "a great deal of confusion" in the young jedi. And that confusion stemmed from Anakin's contemplation over using the Dark Side to prolong/save Padme's life. His desire to save his wife was his underlying reason for what he did later in Palpatine's office, and that was indefensible. If Mace had taken the time to question Anakin fully, and if Skywalker had come clean about everything that motivated him, Mace would have had even more reason to distrust him.

Mace might have chosen to mention to Anakin that 3 Jedi have just been slain by Palpatine and that he needs Anakin’s help to take Palpatine into custody, but Mace was convinced a fair trial would have been impossible so he became the dark trilogy of judge, jury and executioner.
Mace was right in his assessment. There was no possible way Palpatine would have been brought to trial. He had too much control and power. What's unfortunate is that Mace realized that too late. The whole thing was a trap, and he walked right into it.

If he and Anakin had joined forces the Star Wars story would have completely been changed. But the bottom line is, we really don’t want it changed, do we?
That's more Anakin's fault than Mace's.

But if Mace had listened to Anakin and tried to take Palpatine into custody, there's no way he would have left that room alive. By that point, he was dead no matter what (since there's no way Anakin would have brought any harm to Palpatine).

[DblDwn]

I have to admit that lovelucas does present a very strong point. The Council, especially Mace, do not trust Anakin. They think he is too close to Palpatine for his own good. So they assign him off the books to spy on Palpatine for them. To let them know if he is up to no good. Then, as they are about to go and 'request' him to release his emergency powers now that Grievous is dead, Anakin shows up to reveal that Palpatine is the Sith Lord they have been looking for since Mace himself asked Yoda at Qui-Gon's funeral if Maul was the Master or the Apprentice. Even after Palpatine manipulated Anakin for over 10 years, and Palpatine told him that the Dark Side was the only way to save Padme, Anakin still held true to the mission he was given, the mission that he was so adamantly against when Obi-Wan gave it to him, and reported to Mace, the one man on the Council who absolutely did not trust him at all, that Palpatine was the bad guy.

And Mace still has doubts. He still says, "If what you say is true then you will have earned my trust." Of course it was true. Deep down they all knew it. Mace had told Yoda before that the Dark Side surrounds Palpatine. They knew. They just couldn't prove it and, to a degree, didn't want to accept it. Then Anakin shows up to provide confirmation, the very confirmation they wanted him to obtain (why else did they give him the assignment), and Mace is still hesitant to accept that Anakin is telling the truth. Anakin couldn't get a break.

I agree 110% with Rolla because Mace had no choice but to kill Palpatine. "He's too dangerous to be kept alive." But Mace also made a major mistake when he didn't completely trust Anakin. The Chosen One proved his loyalty to the Jedi that day. Loyalty that even went beyond saving his wife. He answered the question that we ask about his true allegiance. But Mace wasn't having any of it and he, along with the rest of the Jedi Order and the galaxy as a whole, paid greatly for his skepticism.

[silverbolt]

I agree 110% with Rolla because Mace had no choice but to kill Palpatine. "He's too dangerous to be kept alive." But Mace also made a major mistake when he didn't completely trust Anakin. The Chosen One proved his loyalty to the Jedi that day. Loyalty that even went beyond saving his wife. He answered the question that we ask about his true allegiance. But Mace wasn't having any of it and he, along with the rest of the Jedi Order and the galaxy as a whole, paid greatly for his skepticism.

i agree, if only the jedi could tell the future it was Mace's refusal to listen to anakin combined with the councils mistrust adn refusal to make him a master that eventually drove Anakin over the edge and fully into Palpatines influence. AS good as teh jedi are they were clouded by thier own self rightousness and all to plain goodness

[borgmatrix]

The Chosen One proved his loyalty to the Jedi that day. Loyalty that even went beyond saving his wife. He answered the question that we ask about his true allegiance.
And yet, not too much later, Anakin aided in the killing of Mace Windu. How loyal was he then? As I said above, Mace accurately picked up on Anakin's "confusion". He was right to not want Anakin present during the attempted arrest, because as we saw, when push came to shove, Anakin was too conflicted to make the right decision.

The big mistake Mace made was not taking the time, even just a few minutes, to think things through. If he had asked Anakin how he discovered Palpatine was the Sith Lord, it would have shed light on the fact that something was very wrong with the situation...that Palpatine wanted them to come to him. At the least, Mace would have realized that Palpatine was looking to provoke action that would look like a Jedi insurrection. And then the Jedi Master could have proceeded more carefully.

Instead, he rush to action and barged into Palpatine's office with little-to-no actual planning. That was his mistake, not excluding Anakin.

[DblDwn]

And yet, not too much later, Anakin aided in the killing of Mace Windu. How loyal was he then?

I disagree with the line of thought that you are using. He didn't aid in the killing of Mace, he prevented Mace from killing Palpatine. He did what he had to do to save Palpatine, in hopes of later obtaining his help in saving Padme, but he didn't necessarily aid in killing Mace. Once Palpatine killed Mace Anakin had no choice but to join Palpatine because it was this first step, the slicing off of Mace's hand, that allowed Palpatine to regain the upper hand, pun intended, and enabled him to kill Mace. But that isn't Anakin's fault in the sense that you are claiming it to be.

Anakin completed his mission and reported to Mace what the Council wanted. Mace didn't trust him and that is Mace's fault. Anakin did what was asked of him, something that he felt uncomfortable doing in the first place, and then Mace was still skeptical of him. Sure he saved Palpatine. But at least Palpatine trusted him, as per Anakin's impressions, and didn't treat him like a lesser person. He gave Mace what he wanted and Mace still turned him away. It only stands to reason that he would say, "F*** it," and turn to Palpatine because at least he treated him like a man.

Instead, he rush to action and barged into Palpatine's office with little-to-no actual planning.

I agree.

[Tovor]

I have to admit that lovelucas does present a very strong point. The Council, especially Mace, do not trust Anakin. They think he is too close to Palpatine for his own good. So they assign him off the books to spy on Palpatine for them. To let them know if he is up to no good. Then, as they are about to go and 'request' him to release his emergency powers now that Grievous is dead, Anakin shows up to reveal that Palpatine is the Sith Lord they have been looking for since Mace himself asked Yoda at Qui-Gon's funeral if Maul was the Master or the Apprentice. Even after Palpatine manipulated Anakin for over 10 years, and Palpatine told him that the Dark Side was the only way to save Padme, Anakin still held true to the mission he was given, the mission that he was so adamantly against when Obi-Wan gave it to him, and reported to Mace, the one man on the Council who absolutely did not trust him at all, that Palpatine was the bad guy.

And Mace still has doubts. He still says, "If what you say is true then you will have earned my trust." Of course it was true. Deep down they all knew it. Mace had told Yoda before that the Dark Side surrounds Palpatine. They knew. They just couldn't prove it and, to a degree, didn't want to accept it. Then Anakin shows up to provide confirmation, the very confirmation they wanted him to obtain (why else did they give him the assignment), and Mace is still hesitant to accept that Anakin is telling the truth. Anakin couldn't get a break.

I agree 110% with Rolla because Mace had no choice but to kill Palpatine. "He's too dangerous to be kept alive." But Mace also made a major mistake when he didn't completely trust Anakin. The Chosen One proved his loyalty to the Jedi that day. Loyalty that even went beyond saving his wife. He answered the question that we ask about his true allegiance. But Mace wasn't having any of it and he, along with the rest of the Jedi Order and the galaxy as a whole, paid greatly for his skepticism.
Although what counts in the film experience is only what we see on film, and we don't know if what Stover wrote in this instance was part of the original script but editted out, what I remember from the novel is that the Council never suspected Palpatine in any remote form of being a Sith. They did however, suspect that Sidious may be among Palpatine's inner circle of advisors, or that he had a plant within his circle, and was manipulating and/or outright controlling Palpatine. Obi-Wan even revealed to Anakin at one point, when Anakin protested his assignment, that Palpatine himself could be in danger from the Sith Lord. If this was in the original script indeed, I think it should have remained in the film, because it would have made more sense that when Mace stated that the dark side surrounded the Chancellor, that he was thinking that the dark side was being used against Palpatine by Sidious. As it is, even though I knew a bit of the story before seeing the film, when Mace made his observation my thoughts were, "If you know that he is a Sith, why not arrest him right now?" It simply would have made more sense, and provided a better narrative, if it had been explained via earlier Jedi speculation that Mace thought Palpatine was being manipulated by the dark side, rather than being the one using it.

Because as it stands, these 2 lines don't make enough sense without the above elaboration:
"The dark side of the Force surrounds the chancellor."
(...Palpatine is a Sith lord)
"Are you sure? How do you know this?"

I mean, jeez, put Homer Simpson in a Jedi robe and get more accomplished in the Jedi think tank, ya know?

[Tovor]

...it would have shed light on the fact that something was very wrong with the situation...that Palpatine wanted them to come to him. At the least, Mace would have realized that Palpatine was looking to provoke action that would look like a Jedi insurrection. And then the Jedi Master could have proceeded more carefully.

Instead, he rush to action and barged into Palpatine's office with little-to-no actual planning. That was his mistake, not excluding Anakin.
I agree with that.

[borgmatrix]

I disagree with the line of thought that you are using. He didn't aid in the killing of Mace, he prevented Mace from killing Palpatine.
By cutting of his hand instead of simply blocking his lightsaber? Come on. Anakin acted for selfish reasons against a senior Jedi master who at that moment needed his support. No matter how you frame it, that's not loyalty. Everything Mace said about Palpatine controlling the courts and senate was correct, and Anakin knows that, but he doesn't care because all he wants is Padme safe. So you can hardly put the blame on Mace for things turning out as they did.

As I said in my previous two posts, Mace correctly recognized the confusion/conflict in Anakin. He was right, and the proof is in Anakin's actions in Palpatine's office. That's why he didn't want him there. Do you honestly think things would have gone differently if Mace had trusted him and brought him along in the first place? Palpatine would have still have made a play to bring Anakin to his side (since that was partially the point), and Anakin would have ultimately have been faced with the same choice.

It only stands to reason that he would say, "F*** it," and turn to Palpatine because at least he treated him like a man.
Anakin was completely manipulated by Palpatine, which isn't being treated like a man. And Anakin knows this by the time of the confrontation in Palpatine's office. We saw the palpable sense of betrayal when the Chancellor revealed himself to Anakin. We felt that when the young jedi said he would like to kill him. He didn't attack Mace because Palpatine was treating him like a man, but because he wanted Padme alive and believed Sidious was the only one who could assure that. Anakin's exclamation of "what have I done" and the look of complete disgust as he knelt before Sidious was clear indication that he didn't truly want any of this and was doing it only to save Padme. That is what had conflicted him and it was poor motivation. Mace sensed that conflict, even if he didn't know what it was over, and was correct to want Anakin to stay away.

Mace should have trusted his feelings more regarding Anakin and put him under watch. And, he should have thought things through more before going after Palpatine.

[Tovor]

Anakin was completely manipulated by Palpatine, which isn't being treated like a man. And Anakin knows this by the time of the confrontation in Palpatine's office. We saw the palpable sense of betrayal when the Chancellor revealed himself to Anakin. We felt that when the young jedi said he would like to kill him.

Mace should have trusted his feelings more regarding Anakin and put him under watch. And, he should have thought things through more before going after Palpatine.
Sure Palp's was a manipulator and user, but in AOTC we saw how often Obi-Wan belittled and mistrusted Anakin's skills and foresight, slighting him by lack of recognition. And Palpatine showed Anakin how much he recognized and respected Anakin's achievements when they were alone (I can see already you are becoming the greatest of all Jedi...). So despite Palpatine having been a deceiver and a user, in Anakin's mind he had always been treated as the great man that he was, by Palpatine.

[DblDwn]

By cutting of his hand instead of simply blocking his lightsaber? Come on. Anakin acted for selfish reasons against a senior Jedi master who at that moment needed his support. No matter how you frame it, that's not loyalty.

Even after Palpatine explained to him during the Sith revelation scene that the Dark Side through him was the only way to save Padme, Anakin still went to Mace and told him the truth about Palpatine. That is loyalty regardless of what followed. He didn't want to betray his perception of friendship that Palpatine had always provided for him when given the assignment but he still ended up obeying his mandate. He found out the truth about Palpatine and reported it to Mace, as instructed. That is loyalty.

As I said in my previous two posts, Mace correctly recognized the confusion/conflict in Anakin. He was right, and the proof is in Anakin's actions in Palpatine's office. That's why he didn't want him there. Do you honestly think things would have gone differently if Mace had trusted him and brought him along in the first place? Palpatine would have still have made a play to bring Anakin to his side (since that was partially the point), and Anakin would have ultimately have been faced with the same choice.

I agree completely but that still doesn't disprove that Anakin, by going immediately to Mace with the truth about Palpatine, showed his loyalty to the Jedi and what they had asked of him.

Anakin was completely manipulated by Palpatine, which isn't being treated like a man. And Anakin knows this by the time of the confrontation in Palpatine's office.

Incorrect. Tov is spot on in his above post. The Council in TPM by not initially approving his training, Obi-Wan in AOTC at Padme's and throughout the movie really, the Council in ROTS by not making him a Master once appointed to the Council, the Jedi, and especially those Jedi closest to him, had a long history of reminding Anakin that he was younger and less powerful than he kept telling himself he was. "In some way, a lot of ways, I'm ahead of him" Anakin tells Padme in AOTC. Palpatine sensed this frustration in Anakin and told him such things as, "I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi" and "They need you more than they know" and so on. He talked to Anakin, not down to him, and that is how he spoke to him as the man he thought he was ready to be.

And he doesn't know that by the time of the confrontation. Anakin still believes that Palpatine has been honest with him. Why else would he need him to save Padme? Palpatine told him that he knew now to prevent others from dying but, after Anakin pledges himself to Palpatine, Sidious says, "To cheat death is an ability that only one has achieved but, if we work together, I know we can discover its secret," or something like that. That should have told Anakin that Palpatine had lied to him the whole time, after Mace was killed, but by then it was too late because Anakin, after having inadvertantly aiding in Mace's death (he wasn't trying to kill him just stop him from killing Palpatine), could not have gone back to the Jedi and gotten away with apologizing for helping kill one of the highest ranking members of the Order.

We saw the palpable sense of betrayal when the Chancellor revealed himself to Anakin. We felt that when the young jedi said he would like to kill him.

Out of betrayal, sure, but also out of a loyalty to the Jedi Order. His loyalty to the Order isn't in question. The only problem is that the Jedi were second on his loyalty list. Palpatine wasn't number one. Padme was. Pseudo-loyalty to Palpatine only arose because he offered a way to save Padme, his top priority, while he had to hide all traces of their marriage and their relationship from the Jedi. Palpatine could help. The Jedi couldn't even know. How's that for a dilema?

He didn't attack Mace because Palpatine was treating him like a man, but because he wanted Padme alive and believed Sidious was the only one who could assure that. Anakin's exclamation of "what have I done" and the look of complete disgust as he knelt before Sidious was clear indication that he didn't truly want any of this and was doing it only to save Padme.

We agree on the same things but our reasoning is slightly off. But I hear you loud and clear.

[borgmatrix]

He found out the truth about Palpatine and reported it to Mace, as instructed. That is loyalty.
Then he was instructed to remain in the Council chambers, and he didn't listen. He shows loyalty in once scene, and then doesn't in another. My point is that he's wavering. Just within a span of an hour or two, he's going back and forth. He came to Mace about Sidious, as he was supposed to, but at the same time Mace could sense there was still conflict. It's a difficult thing, but what's Mace supposed to do? Mace didn't act improperly in wishing Anakin to remain out of things from that point on. If Anakin had continued to be loyal, listened, and remained where he was, he would have been in a far better position.

Palpatine sensed this frustration in Anakin and told him such things as, "I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi" and "They need you more than they know" and so on. He talked to Anakin, not down to him, and that is how he spoke to him as the man he thought he was ready to be.
Yes, but he wasn't being genuine. I understand how Palpatine had appeared to Anakin, but the reality is he was telling Anakin what Anakin wanted to hear in order to eventually drive a stake between him and the Jedi.

And he doesn't know that by the time of the confrontation. Anakin still believes that Palpatine has been honest with him.
That's simply not true. Palpatine had never previously told him he was a Sith. So he's been outright dishonest.

Why else would he need him to save Padme?
Because he has nowhere else to turn. Regardless of whether Palpatine's lying or not, Anakin (in his mind) has to risk it because there's no other out that he can see. The Dark Side seems like the only possibility to save Padme. He knows the Sith are about deception, because Palpatine's been deceiving him all these years about his true identity. But it's the only chance he can see to possibly save Padme.

[DblDwn]

Then he was instructed to remain in the Council chambers, and he didn't listen. He shows loyalty in once scene, and then doesn't in another. My point is that he's wavering.

I'm not talking about when he leaves the Council Chamber and goes to the senate building. I'm talking about the fact that he didn't feel comfortable spying on Palpatine for the Council, he felt bad betraying Palpatine's trust, but he did so anyway and still came and told Mace what he had found out. At that moment, regardless of everything else, he maintained loyalty to the Jedi.

Yes, but he wasn't being genuine. I understand how Palpatine had appeared to Anakin, but the reality is he was telling Anakin what Anakin wanted to hear in order to eventually drive a stake between him and the Jedi.

It doesn't matter that we, as viewers, know he is not being genuine. Anakin thinks he is being genuine, and treating him with the mature level of respect that he feels he deserves, and that is all that matters.

That's simply not true. Palpatine had never previously told him he was a Sith. So he's been outright dishonest.

Well to be fair he more than likely never told Anakin that he wasn't a Sith Lord either. So he wasn't being dishonest, he was being deceptively coy. There is a slight difference in the context of what we are discussing.

Because he has nowhere else to turn. Regardless of whether Palpatine's lying or not, Anakin (in his mind) has to risk it because there's no other out that he can see. The Dark Side seems like the only possibility to save Padme. He knows the Sith are about deception, because Palpatine's been deceiving him all these years about his true identity. But it's the only chance he can see to possibly save Padme.

That is, more or less, the same thing I said before. As I stated, we agree on most of the same things but our reasoning is where we differ.

[borgmatrix]

I'm not talking about when he leaves the Council Chamber and goes to the senate building. I'm talking about the fact that he didn't feel comfortable spying on Palpatine for the Council, he felt bad betraying Palpatine's trust, but he did so anyway and still came and told Mace what he had found out. At that moment, regardless of everything else, he maintained loyalty to the Jedi.
That's true. And it's admirable. There's no doubt that in his heart, Anakin had some decency. And unfortunately, Palpatine manipulated this. Well, no argument on that. My point was just that Anakin's loyalty did waver as well. And that in regards to his inner conflict, Mace was right to not include him in the arrest attempt.

It doesn't matter that we, as viewers, know he is not being genuine. Anakin thinks he is being genuine, and treating him with the mature level of respect that he feels he deserves, and that is all that matters.
And that's true up until Palpatine reveals himself as Sidious. Obviously, it would be hard for Anakin to let go of everything he felt towards the man before then. But my point was just that at that moment, Anakin finally saw that there had been a huge level of deception on Palpatine's part. And in that sense, there was no way he could proceed with a sense that Palpatine was a completely honest, trustworthy individual.

Well to be fair he more than likely never told Anakin that he wasn't a Sith Lord either. So he wasn't being dishonest, he was being deceptively coy.
I knew you were going to pull that out. :D I understand what you're saying, but that's taking the definition of honesty a bit too far. Anakin's been confiding in Palpatine and all these years they were supposedly trying to end the war and bring down the Sith Master. The fact that all this time Palpatine was in fact that very Master but never mentioned it is more than a little dishonest.

I brought this up simply to indicate that when it comes to the scene in the office with Palpatine and Mace, Anakin knows Palpatine isn't trustworthy because he's been manipulating the war from the inside.

As I stated, we agree on most of the same things but our reasoning is where we differ.
Yeah, we're mostly on the same page. Good discussion, DblDwn. Talking about this stuff, I realize more than ever how much I love this movie. And I'm guessing most of this stuff is passing well over the heads of many among the general audiences. So many criticise these movies quickly and easily, but likely have a poor appreciation of the significance of so many of these scenes.

[DblDwn]

I agree. There is certainly much more going on than some realize. Great discussion.

[silverbolt]

Anakin was torn between his loyalty to the jedi and his loyalty adn love for Padme, Palpatine knowing this manipulated Anakin to bring him even further under his thumb. Anakin wanted to do the right thing by reporting palpatine to Windu who for a jedi was very impetuous and violently minded (being a warrior jedi and all that).
His actions to save Palpatine were guided by his desire to keep Padme safe.
Also Mace wasnt aware of the full situation none of teh jedi including Ben kenobi knew that Anakin was married to Padme and she was carrying his child(ren). Yet Mace must have been aware that Anakin was hiding something whice he misconstrued as hidden loyalties beyond the council to Palpatine.

[RollaFett]

Borg- You and I are completely on the same page. Mace was quite wise to leave Anakin out of the arrest attempt. He doesn't trust him to begin with, and had made that very clear to many, including Anakin. Plus, he senses conflict in Anakin after he does his job and reports the news to Mace. That just reeks of trouble in you include him. Yes, maybe it would have been more than Palpatine could handle and the arrest may have actually happened. More likely, however, that Anakin doesn't give himself fully to the fight and you wind up with something similar to what happened anyway.
And all of that is due to Anakin's wavering loyalties.

DblDwn- Speaking of loyalties, I couldn't agree with you more. Sure, Anakin wasn't quite sure of where his loyalties stood whe it came to the Jedi and Palpatine, there was no wavering when it came to Padme. His absolute devotion to her is what drives him ultimately towards the dark side. It's funny, though, that once he fully gives himself to that very dark side, he easily becomes less loyal to Padme. He didn't hesitate to force choke her on Mustafar when Obi-Wan showed up.

Now, back to our boy Mace. As others have noted, he sure did jump the gun on the arrest, huh? Can't argue there. Why not take a few moments to discuss this enormous revelation with Anakin? There was ne need to rush off like that.
And that brings me to another point about that subplot. Why do the Jedi decide to see what Palpatine will do with his emergency powers once Obi-Wan has engaged Grievous? Why not wait to see how that battle turns out before playing that hand? If Obi-Wan was killed, and Grievous remained in charge of the Separtist army, then logic would dictate that Palpatine should retain those emergency powers, right? That's a seperate issue, though, I suppose.

On a side note, shortly after the release of the film, I remember reading an article on TOS about how the arrest scene was completely reshot months later, and we wind up seeing the reshoot. In the original, Anakin is at Palpatines side when Mace and the other completely useless masters show up. Anakin refuses to stand with the Jedi, then Palpatine force grabs Anakin's lightsaber, kills the 3 useless masters, and fights Mace, all while Anakin simply watches. I couldn't find the article on TOS, but did find something on it at T's site: http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/plugins/p2_news/printarticle.php?p2_articleid=306

[DblDwn]

Sure, Anakin wasn't quite sure of where his loyalties stood whe it came to the Jedi and Palpatine, there was no wavering when it came to Padme.

Agree completely.

His absolute devotion to her is what drives him ultimately towards the dark side.

Correct

It's funny, though, that once he fully gives himself to that very dark side, he easily becomes less loyal to Padme. He didn't hesitate to force choke her on Mustafar when Obi-Wan showed up.

He chokes her more out of betrayal or, more accurately, what he preceives to be betrayal. He sacrifices everything for her and he honestly, in that moment, feels that she has brought Obi-Wan to kill him. Sure that ease of violence toward Padme is brought on by his consumption by the Dark Side, but it is still more about betrayal than anything else.

[RollaFett]

Yeah, that's true. But it tells how being consumed by the dark side can suddenly make you change your priorities and loyalties. He did all of that out of loyalty to her, but doesn't hesitate attempt to kill her and throw those loyalties away when consumed by the dark side.

[DblDwn]

Well stated Rolla.

[borgmatrix]

He did all of that out of loyalty to her, but doesn't hesitate attempt to kill her and throw those loyalties away when consumed by the dark side.
Right. But I don't see it as truly throwing that loyalty away. It's a more a sense of that loyalty seemingly being thrown away by Padme. And from that perspective, his anger is understandable. He's sold his soul to the devil, commited these atrocities which he doesn't truly enjoy, all for Padme, and then to believe after all that horror, her response is to bring Obi-wan to Mustafar to kill him...yeah, I'd probably be enraged too.

The guy I really blame is Obi-wan. I don't mean that in the sense of absolving Vader from what he did, but just in the sense that Obi-wan really should have known better and not been so careless. As soon as the ship set down, he should have revealed himself and made certain Padme remained safely on the ship. Instead, he remains hidden while she goes out to greet someone that Obi-wan knows is a Sith Lord and whom he's been sent to kill. How intelligent is that? Surely he must have realized that Vader would sense him (which he did just before Kenobi appeared) and that the whole thing would look really bad for Padme and set off an already confused and unstable Anakin/Vader.

But anyway, like DD was saying, from Vader's perspective it was the ultimate betrayal. He's brought hell upon himself for her and then, it appears, she answers that by bringing Obi-wan to kill him. He reacted too quickly, of course, and brought about the very thing he was trying to stop. But I completely understand how he misread the situation.

[RollaFett]

The dark side is a bad place, methinks.

Anyway, we've veered off topic a tad, it seems. Back to Mace and his three stoog--err, I mean "masters".
If there was anything about ROTS that I absolutely couldn't stand, it was how lame and easily those guys were whacked. At least, in the novel, Palpatine seemed to really catch them by surprise and killed them in cool ways.

[DblDwn]

If there was anything about ROTS that I absolutely couldn't stand, it was how lame and easily those guys were whacked. At least, in the novel, Palpatine seemed to really catch them by surprise and killed them in cool ways.

I haven't read the novel but, in the movie, it does stand to reason that even a few Jedi Masters would be nothing compared to the most powerful of Sith Lords. Mace, through his skills as a warrior, is the only one there who truly stood a chance.

The smart move would have been for Mace to call back all of the leading members of the Order. The Council members. If Mace, Yoda, Ki-Adi, Plo Koon, Obi-Wan, etc all rolled in to remove Palpatine from his office then they certainly would have stood a better shot. But, as they say, hindsight is 20/20.

[borgmatrix]

I haven't read the novel but, in the movie, it does stand to reason that even a few Jedi Masters would be nothing compared to the most powerful of Sith Lords. Mace, through his skills as a warrior, is the only one there who truly stood a chance.
I think that was certainly the intent, but the way it came off on-screen was beyond lame.

I also didn't care for Palpatine jumping off the wall Yoda-style a little later. Completely unnecessary and just doesn't seem to fit Palpatine's demeanor. And I might as well throw in that twirling leap from behind his desk. A little too much in places.

[DblDwn]

A little too Keri Strug for me too but I did give him a 9 for sticking the landing.

[RollaFett]

I haven't read the novel but, in the movie, it does stand to reason that even a few Jedi Masters would be nothing compared to the most powerful of Sith Lords. Mace, through his skills as a warrior, is the only one there who truly stood a chance.


I can fully understand that Palpatine can kick some Jedi master ass, but as Borg said, it looked horrible on-screen. A lot of that is probably due to the fact that Ian McDiarmid is a very poor physical actor, as Lucas even pointed out in the commentary for ROTS. That said, though, they managed to make a much older Christopher Lee look extremely agile in AOTC and ROTS. I don't know why they didn't go with more of that technique for McDiarmid.

[DblDwn]

That's a good point. The old stunt man with McDiarmid's face CG'd over trick. That would have worked better. I agree.

[Fish1941]

Now, back to our boy Mace. As others have noted, he sure did jump the gun on the arrest, huh? Can't argue there. Why not take a few moments to discuss this enormous revelation with Anakin? There was ne need to rush off like that.
And that brings me to another point about that subplot. Why do the Jedi decide to see what Palpatine will do with his emergency powers once Obi-Wan has engaged Grievous? Why not wait to see how that battle turns out before playing that hand?

Actually, when the Jedi learned of Grievous' death at the hands of Obi-Wan, Mace made it clear that he was going to pay a visit to Palpatine and ask the latter to consider stepping down from office. However . . . before Mace could leave, Anakin told him about Palpatine being a Sith Lord. And this is where Mace made his mistake . . . he decided to go and arrest Palpatine - without the Senate's authorization, I might add - instead of keeping Anakin's accusations to himself and go ahead with his original intention. By doing that Mace could have waited to see if Palpatine was willing to step down. And if not, find more evidence on Palpatine being a Sith Lord and have the Jedi present it to senators like Bail Organa, Mon Mothma and Padme Amidala. The Jedi should have considered violence and aggression as a last resort. This is something that Mace and later, Yoda had failed to do.

As for Anakin, he should have remained at the Temple as he was instructed. Someone stated that Mace should have left someone to look after Anakin. I don't agree. Anakin's refusal to remain behind was his own fault. He was not a child. And even if someone had remained behind, how do we know that Anakin would have overcome that person and headed for Palpatine's office, anyway? No, only Anakin is to blame for not following Mace's orders.

Even if Mace had allowed Anakin to accompany him, we still do not know whether Anakin would have done the same thing and prevent Mace or any of the other Jedi from killing Palpatine. After all, the prevention of Padme's death was the main thing on Anakin's mind. Mace was correct about sensing conflict within him. I hate to say this, but not even I would have trust to have Anakin accompany me . . . especially with him in such a state of emotional turmoil.


I can fully understand that Palpatine can kick some Jedi master ass, but as Borg said, it looked horrible on-screen. A lot of that is probably due to the fact that Ian McDiarmid is a very poor physical actor, as Lucas even pointed out in the commentary for ROTS. That said, though, they managed to make a much older Christopher Lee look extremely agile in AOTC and ROTS. I don't know why they didn't go with more of that technique for McDiarmid.

It did not look horrible to me. But it certainly did not look exceptional.


The guy I really blame is Obi-wan. I don't mean that in the sense of absolving Vader from what he did, but just in the sense that Obi-wan really should have known better and not been so careless. As soon as the ship set down, he should have revealed himself and made certain Padme remained safely on the ship. Instead, he remains hidden while she goes out to greet someone that Obi-wan knows is a Sith Lord and whom he's been sent to kill. How intelligent is that?

Frankly, I feel that Obi-Wan should not have snuck aboard Padme's ship in the first place. I think that he should have placed a tracking device on her ship and followed her. And I also feel that he should have waited to see how Padme would deal with Anakin before making his appearance.

[DblDwn]

Technically he did. He didn't show himself until it was apparent that Anakin was consumed by the Dark Side. If he wasn't going to listen to his wife, and the mother of this child(ren), then there wasn't much chance of his listening to anyone, let alone Obi-Wan.

[Fish1941]

Technically he did. He didn't show himself until it was apparent that Anakin was consumed by the Dark Side. If he wasn't going to listen to his wife, and the mother of this child(ren), then there wasn't much chance of his listening to anyone, let alone Obi-Wan.


That is not the impression I got. It seemed to me Anakin truly became consumed by his inner darkness AFTER he spotted Obi-Wan disembarking from Padme's ship. I think that Obi-Wan's timing was really off in that scene.

[DblDwn]

Obi-Wan's perception of Anakin's decent, and Anakin's actual decent, more than likely are too different things. But, still, Anakin told Padme that he could kill the Emperor and that they could rule the galaxy as they wanted to. He had already stormed the temple and killed the Younglings. Perception or misperception not withstanding, I agree that Obi-Wan should have tracked the ship as opposed to stowing away.

[borgmatrix]

This is something that Mace and later, Yoda had failed to do.
Explain, regarding Yoda. Are you referring to his confrontation with Sidious?

Someone stated that Mace should have left someone to look after Anakin. I don't agree. Anakin's refusal to remain behind was his own fault. He was not a child. And even if someone had remained behind, how do we know that Anakin would have overcome that person and headed for Palpatine's office, anyway? No, only Anakin is to blame for not following Mace's orders.
Of course Anakin is to blame. But given the fact that Anakin has been very close to Palpatine, who is apparantly a Sith Lord, and Anakin's confusion, which Mace could sense, he absolutely should have had someone remain with Anakin. Not to babysit, but, given the extremely high stakes, to make certain something very bad doesn't happen. And of course, Anakin not listening did result in something extremely bad. Given what Mace was sensing from Anakin and the possibility of his mentor, Palpatine, being a Sith Lord, he should have shown not only better judgment, but more responsibility.

I hate to say this, but not even I would have trust to have Anakin accompany me . . . especially with him in such a state of emotional turmoil.
Exactly. So how could he trust him to stay put and not intervene?

It did not look horrible to me. But it certainly did not look exceptional.
That's how I would characterize the Palps-Mace battle on the whole. But the killing of Mace's stooges (which does sound more accurate, Rolla) made them look extremely incompetent and incapable.

And I also feel that he should have waited to see how Padme would deal with Anakin before making his appearance.
That's what I feel his big mistake was. He's been sent to kill Vader, so obviously they're dealing with an extremely dangerous individual. To let Padme interact with him alone, and without knowing Obi-wan's there, was an extremely poor choice. If he wanted to see if Padme could talk him down, fine. But go with her and let her do the talking. Yes, Vader probably would have reacted badly the moment he saw Obi-wan, but that's certainly better than leaving Padme vulnerable when he appears later.

Like I said before, I don't think Obi-wan should have let Padme leave the ship.

Also, in regards to timing, Vader sensed him before he was visible. As Padme's talking, we see him look toward the ship, his expression slowly changing. Then Obi-wan steps out into view. This is why it was terrible choice to allow Padme to go out there. Vader would eventually sense Obi-wan on the ship, and then things would go bad (as they did).

[RollaFett]

Today 12:21 PMFish1941Quote:
Now, back to our boy Mace. As others have noted, he sure did jump the gun on the arrest, huh? Can't argue there. Why not take a few moments to discuss this enormous revelation with Anakin? There was ne need to rush off like that.
And that brings me to another point about that subplot. Why do the Jedi decide to see what Palpatine will do with his emergency powers once Obi-Wan has engaged Grievous? Why not wait to see how that battle turns out before playing that hand?
Actually, when the Jedi learned of Grievous' death at the hands of Obi-Wan, Mace made it clear that he was going to pay a visit to Palpatine and ask the latter to consider stepping down from office. However . . . before Mace could leave, Anakin told him about Palpatine being a Sith Lord.

My bad. You're right. I got a little mixed up with the order of things. When the Jedi learn of Obi-Wan's engagement of Grievous, they order Anakin to tell Palpatine to get a sense of his intentions. Then, Anakin reports to Mace when they are leaving to arrest him. Correct. My mistake.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

My take on this is linked to the title of this thread, 'what else was Mace supposed to do'?

He has just been told by Anakin that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, he takes 3 other Jedi Masters, all allegedly strong swordsmen, to arrest Palpatine. He leaves Anakin behind as 'he senses great confusion in him' which couldn't be more accurate (this is stated even more explicitly if you read the novelisation).

Sidious kills 3 Jedi in super quick time (yes, the first 2 deaths were beyond lame and the 3rd wasn't much better, hardly skilled swordsmen in the movie!), Mace drops his guard for half a second and nearly gets fried by darkside lightning. It was obvious how strong Sidious was, but Mace beat him in the duel, albeit by flirting with the darkside using his Vaapad style. But remember that his style was unique, he was the only Master of it at the time and he had designed it to cover a weakness in himself. Sidious was clearly too strong to be kept alive and it is true that he was too dangerous to be kept alive. IMO Mace had no option but to kill him.

Those that blame Mace for not trusting Anakin are off the mark as Anakin did eventually betray Mace, so Mace was right to sense the confusion in him and not fully trust the boy. Had Anakin chosen the right path he would have stayed at the temple and never been involved in the Sidious/Mace fight. There is no-one, other than Mace and Yoda (IMO) who would have been sufficiently strong to 'babysit' Anakin and as Yoda was on Kashyyyk and Mace was needed to attempt to arrest Palpatine, this was impossible. The Jedi had to rely on Anakin doing what was right, which he was, ultimately, unable to do.

I don't believe that Anakin meant to kill Mace, but if he wanted Palpatine alive, he could have just blocked Mace's saber as it attempted to kill him, rather than taking his hand off. I think that Mace had to attempt the arrest as soon as possible after finding out Palpatine's true identity, before he became surrounded by guards, so I can fully understand his swift action and I believe the Jedi went there as favourites, with the 4 personnel they had.

[borgmatrix]

I think that Mace had to attempt the arrest as soon as possible after finding out Palpatine's true identity, before he became surrounded by guards, so I can fully understand his swift action and I believe the Jedi went there as favourites, with the 4 personnel they had.
If he's going to barge into the Chancellor's office with lightsaber drawn and absolutely no evidence, the least he could have done was question Anakin a little more first. That's all I'm saying. He should have asked Anakin exactly how he discovered that Palpatine was Sidious. The answer to that question would have been enough to alert Mace to the trap that awaited. With that knowledge, it's highly unlikely Mace and his stooges would have been caught so off guard.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Possibly, however I believe that the Council, or at least the major players suspected Sidious to be the Sith Lord (this is explicitly stated in the novelisation). So when Anakin told Mace he had no reason not to believe him and as a Jedi, Anakin's word was accepted, I see nothing wrong with that. Anakin was clearly upset as Palpatine was his friend and mentor, so it was obvious that he was telling the truth. Had Mace et al not gone to Palpatine's office at that moment, what else could they have done?

[borgmatrix]

Anakin was clearly upset as Palpatine was his friend and mentor, so it was obvious that he was telling the truth. Had Mace et al not gone to Palpatine's office at that moment, what else could they have done?
I'm not questioning Anakin's honesty or Mace's perception of it. That's not an issue for me. It's the context of Anakin's discovery that matters. Anakin has been close to Palpatine. Mace knows this. So what's changed now that has allowed Anakin to figure out this secret identity? Palpatine being Sidious is huge, but it's not everything. What's also critical is what Sidious is planning to do. What's his next move?

If Mace had questioned Anakin further and discovered that it was Palpatine who revealed himself to Anakin (rather than Anakin discovering it for himself), it would have put the situation in an entirely new context. Mace would realize that Sidious knows Anakin has gone to the Jedi with his identity. And that Sidious initiated the whole thing. That changes everything.

And all it would have required was Mace taking an additional couple of minutes with Anakin.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ Good point mate. I hadn't thought of it in those terms before, in the sense that Sidious revealed himself rather than Anakin finding out, should have made Mace wonder what his motives were for this.

[borgmatrix]

^ Good point mate. I hadn't thought of it in those terms before, in the sense that Sidious revealed himself rather than Anakin finding out, should have made Mace wonder what his motives were for this.
Yeah, exactly. Even with that knowledge, Mace might have still barged in there, but I'd like to think he would have been more careful knowing that Sidious was expecting them and possibly hoping for the confrontation.

[RollaFett]

I don't believe that Anakin meant to kill Mace, but if he wanted Palpatine alive, he could have just blocked Mace's saber as it attempted to kill him, rather than taking his hand off.

I don't believe that Anakin meant to kill Mace either, but merely blocking his lightsaber would've accomplished nothing more than getting into a fight with Mace. I don't think Anakin wanted that, because if Mace defeated him, then Palpatine is fair game for Mace, and Palpatine living was the sole reason of Anakin being there in the first place.
He needs to disarm Mace, pun intended, in order to save Palpatine's life.

[lovelucas]

so...... we know how manipulative Palpatine has been and since he was also playing possum when Anakin arrived, is there a true sense of who actually won this fight before Anakin's interference? yes - Mace was methodically backing Palpatine up - Palps was even reduced to crawling backwards...but......wasn't this all part of his plan? Spectacularly timed where Anakin would only witness a vigorous assault by Mace on poor, old Palpatine. Witnessing the way Palpatine killed all 3 members of the posse and then dominated Mace, it seems he could have chosen to finish the job - but that, IMO, was never his intention - he wanted Anakin to disavoy the Jedi and make the committment to the Dark Side. Killing Mace would not have achieved that.

Mace was "played" in more than one way...and made the wrong decision, just like Palpatine knew he would.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ I have been thinking about that possibility too. Unfortunately it does not seem obvious in either the film or the novel as to whether Mace was winning fair and square or whether Sidious was in control and had it all planned. I mean, to what extent could a Jedi or a Sith see into the future.

I like to believe that Mace was winning as he was simply stronger with a lightsaber. Further, Sidious was very good at adapting circumstances to suit himself. He was not always in control of everything, things did not always go as he planned. (E.g. the death of Darth Maul before he knew about Anakin [again assuming Sidious couldn't see this beforehand using the force.]) So my take is that as he was being beaten he had to 'think on his feet' as it were and adapt his plans and well, the rest is history......

[Wild Karde 66]

I agree lovelucas. Even if it is not clear whether Mace was winning, the timing was perfect. All Anakin saw was Mace attacking an unarmed Palpatine. Throw in the dialogue of "he can't be left alive" and the situation was perfect - the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic.

Whether Mace was right or wrong not to take Anakin along and of course, Anakin should not have left the temple, is irrelevant. Mace didn't take him and Anakin showed up on his own, just in time to save Palps from Mace's attack - the Jedi attack on the republic.

And I agree that Palps needed Anakin to make the choice himself - the only way for Anakin to turn was to make the choice himself. Palps just set up the scence perfectly.


Had Anakin been there from the beginning, things might have changed - he would have witnessed the Palps taking out 3 Jedi in a flash and maybe would have seen for himself that it was the Sith lord orchestrating everything.

[lovelucas]

All Anakin saw was Mace attacking an unarmed Palpatine. Throw in the dialogue of "he can't be left alive" and the situation was perfect - the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic.

Yep - with those words- the same words Palpatine had said himself about Dooku ("He's too dangerous to be left alive" - Mace sealed his own fate....in Anakin's eyes he had no choice but to act to save Palpatine and thus Padme.... in disarming Mace both in the physical and defensive definitions (lightsaber was gone too) Anakin unintentionally gave Palpatine the upper, umm "hand".


Had Anakin been there from the beginning, things might have changed - he would have witnessed the Palps taking out 3 Jedi in a flash and maybe would have seen for himself that it was the Sith lord orchestrating everything.

Actually this is why George filmed the scene a second time - originally Anakin was there before the posse.
Anakin revealing that Palpatine is a Sith Lord to Mace, Mace not trusting him and leaving him behind and Padme’s Ruminations were all added after the confrontation in Palpatine’s office was re-thought and re-shot. I do think it works best in the film as it is - with Anakin not knowing the true nature of Palpatine until it’s too late.

[Wild Karde 66]

Then I'm glad he changed it - it would have looked horrible if Anakin decided to go over to the dark side just for Padame.

[lovelucas]

but....I think that's exactly what he did


IMO of course

[borgmatrix]

but....I think that's exactly what he did


IMO of course
No, you're right. Anakin turned because of Padme. And later, of course, got intoxicated by the power and wanted more.

The main reason Lucas changed things was to make Anakin's turn more believable. I believe initially, when Palpatine revealed himself to be Sidious and asked Anakin to join him, he did. And that's why he was already present when Mace and his stooges arrived. Lucas felt that wasn't believable and too quick, and changed it so that Anakin decides to go to the Council first, wrestling with his decision internally. Then, a little later, he arrives at the Chancellor's office and joins him.

It plays out better that way as we get a better sense of Skywalker being backed into a wall. His choice feels less arbitrary and his internal struggle more believable as it's expanded over a longer period of time.

[Wild Karde 66]

Yes he did go over just for Padame, but at least with the scence set up this way, he was backed into a corner and had to make a choice right away so it is more believable that he choose that path. And there was this underlying current of Mace not following the Jedi principles - ie just like Palps told Anakin - the Jedi are looking to take over.

If Anakin just said yes, it would have looked silly.

[Fish1941]

Explain, regarding Yoda. Are you referring to his confrontation with Sidious?


Yes, I am. Yoda went to Sidious' office with the full intent to commit political assassination. Like Mace before him, he felt that physical violence was the answer to dealing with the "Sith problem", failing to forget that Palpatine was a legally elected leader of the Republic, and that the Senate had unaminmously accepted his declaration as emperor. Even if Yoda had succeeded, he would have been guilty of murder and treason. And there is a good chance that the Senate would be more determined than ever to hunt down and kill the remaining Jedi.

As Luke would prove in ROTJ, using evil (namely violence and murder) to eradicate evil is not always the answer. This is something that both Yoda and Mace had failed to realize in the PT.


Then I'm glad he changed it - it would have looked horrible if Anakin decided to go over to the dark side just for Padame.


He did go over to the dark side for Padme. That was his real reason. He even said so after Mace's death. Mace's attempt to kill Palpatine was nothing more than an excuse for Anakin.

[Wild Karde 66]

Well yes, he did go to the dark side for Padame, but by filming the scence as shown in the movie, he was not allowed time to think - he had to act. And fast.

But I do think the exchange between him and Mace being "not the Jedi way" did help him lean towards going dark. Especially since Palps was filling his head with ideas that the Jedi wanted to take him out.

[Fish1941]

but by filming the scence as shown in the movie, he was not allowed time to think - he had to act. And fast.

Yes, but by chopping off Mace's hands?

It almost seems as if fans are trying to justify Anakin's part in Mace's murder. Couldn't he have thought of another way to save Palpatine's life without giving the latter an opportunity to take Mace's?

[borgmatrix]

It almost seems as if fans are trying to justify Anakin's part in Mace's murder. Couldn't he have thought of another way to save Palpatine's life without giving the latter an opportunity to take Mace's?
There's no doubt Anakin was complicit.

But I think Anakin acted as he did (cutting through Mace's forearm rather than simply blocking) because he knew by that point there could be no in between. Mace was completely committed to killing Sidious by that point. Whoever Anakin sided with, he knew the other had to die. And since he couldn't allow Sidious to die (in order to save Padme), it had to be Mace.

If you look at Anakin's reaction just before he leaves the Council chambers, I think we can see that he's already cognizant of what he might have to do to protect the Chancellor. He tried hard to not allow it to come to that, but when push came to shove, Mace wasn't going to back down. So he had to die.

[Fish1941]

But I think Anakin acted as he did (cutting through Mace's forearm rather than simply blocking) because he knew by that point there could be no in between. Mace was completely committed to killing Sidious by that point. Whoever Anakin sided with, he knew the other had to die. And since he couldn't allow Sidious to die (in order to save Padme), it had to be Mace.

But it seems as if you're still trying to justify Anakin's actions. I'm not saying that Mace was justified in trying to kill Palpatine. But if he could have taken a less lethal attempt to deal with the threat of the Sith Master, couldn't Anakin have done the same in regard with Mace? It seems to me that you're saying that Anakin didn't have a choice. But he did. Yes, he had to stop Mace from killing Palpatine. But what I'm trying to say that Anakin could have tried to find another way to stop Mace and give Palpatine the opportunity to kill the Jedi Master. He saw that Palpatine was capable of using Force lightning. And even when he was trying to convince Mace not to kill Palpatine, he brought up the matter that he needed the Chancellor to keep Padme alive:

ANAKIN: It is not the Jedi way . . .
MACE raises his sword to kill the CHANCELLOR. ANAKIN: (continuing) He must live . . .
PALPATINE: Please don't, please don't . . .
ANAKIN: I need him . . .
PALPATINE: Please don't . . .
ANAKIN: NO!!!

So, even though he tried to point out to Mace that it was not the Jedi way to kill Palpatine in cold blood, in the end Anakin was thinking more of Padme, instead of Mace's moral state.

[borgmatrix]

But it seems as if you're still trying to justify Anakin's actions.
Anakin was flat out wrong. Plain and simple. So I'm not trying to justify it. Rather, I'm explaining why he did what he did. Could it be said that he didn't have a choice? In his own mind, yes. And that's where I'm approaching this from.

I guess what I'm saying is this: Anakin acted as he did because he was completely unwilling to let Padme die and believed Sidious was the only one who could potentially save her. If we accept that premise, then no, he didn't have any other choice. Now, I don't find Padme to be a justified reason for turning on Mace and the Jedi and dooming the galaxy. So I'm not in support of him here. He was wrong. But, if we're to accept that Padme must live and only Sidious can save her, then there's no other action at this point.

He could have blocked Mace's lightsaber, but Mace wouldn't have backed down, so a full on fight would have resulted which Anakin could have lost. And if he did, Palpatine's dead.

[Wild Karde 66]

I agree - not trying to justify what Anakin did to Mace - just trying to get inside his head, so to speak, as to why he made the choice he did.

[lovelucas]

But Anakin did not know, did not expect to have the "helpless" Palpatine all of a sudden have a robust, terminal and secret weapon - no one had any idea at all about that lightening.

When Anakin used his lightsaber to disarm Mace, Palpatine did not have a weapon. Therefore I don't think he was consciously choosing to have Mace die here....

He was surprised and distraught at Palaptine's actions and finally recognized what he was dealing with...too late.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Sidious had already used his lightning though, which Mace had fended off with his lightsaber in front of Anakin. So, in effect, Sidious did still have a weapon when Anakin disarmed Mace. I agree with the thought that Anakin already knew that he would do anything to stop Sidious from dying, from the minute he left the Jedi temple.

[lovelucas]

the lightening came AFTER the dis-arming.

[RollaFett]

^ Uh, you're wrong. Mace blocked the first salvo of lightening with his saber, remember?
The second salvo came after he had his hand sliced off.

[lovelucas]

yep - you are correct - the first appearance Mace was able to block - but Palpatine did not release the full "unlimited" power of the double whammy until Mace was singled handed. and neither Mace nor Anakin knew or expected this - and Palps was playing possum until this action.

[Fish1941]

yep - you are correct - the first appearance Mace was able to block - but Palpatine did not release the full "unlimited" power of the double whammy until Mace was singled handed. and neither Mace nor Anakin knew or expected this - and Palps was playing possum until this action.

Although I don't believe that Palpatine was completely unable to defend himself, I do believe that he was in serious danger of being killed by Mace. He wasn't completely faking his fight against Mace. Lucas and company has made that perfectly clear.

[Wild Karde 66]

I have to agree - Palps wasn't totally faking - there was a chance that Mace was going to defeat him. Anakin walking in when he did allowed Palps to stop his lighting to turn Anakin.

[RollaFett]

yep - you are correct - the first appearance Mace was able to block - but Palpatine did not release the full "unlimited" power of the double whammy until Mace was singled handed. and neither Mace nor Anakin knew or expected this - and Palps was playing possum until this action.

I disagree. Mace knew just how dangerous he was. That's exactly why he wanted to kill him. I realize he was playing possum, but that doesn't mean that mace bought it. If he did, he simply would've arrested him. No, he knows that as a Sith lord, he's capable of anything.
Now, who knows what would've happened if Anakin didn't intervene, but he did, Mace lost his hand and then his life.
Y'know, I do wonder how that would've played out if Anakin didn't stop Mace. Would Palpatine have been able to avoid getting sliced up in time? Hmmmm...

[lovelucas]

And guess I’ll have to disagree with both of you…..no one knew about the lightening – saying a Sith is capable of anything really doesn’t address how to prepare for “anything”. Mace didn’t even believe Anakin was telling the truth about Palps in the first place. “A Sith Lord”, he said incredulously. “IF what you say is true THEN you will have earned my trust.”

There have been implications that Mace briefly held the umm upper “hand” especially once Palps was weaponless however by that definition Mace was attacking an unarmed man, taking justice into his own hands (funny how many clichés have hand/hands in them) going against the Jedi Code, and by those actions had already lost the duel. He was so intent in saving his beloved Republic he let that intention dictate his actions – and with that, my friends, Mace clouded his own vision. He wouldn’t listen to or believe Anakin at the Temple – he doesn’t listen to him now… and all Anakin sees is Mace pronouncing judgment and “executing” that judgment – when it wasn’t his decision to make. Now I know Mace doesn’t have the luxury to weigh his options here – but this was not the right decision. He had Anakin right there who DID make the right call – Palpatine must stand trial. Between the two of them, they most definitely could have taken Palps into custody but they had to be united in intent and purpose and they were as divided as the Grand Canyon.

[RollaFett]

If Mace didn't suspect that Palpatine was still quite dangerous and capable of another batch of lightening or whatever Sith trick he may have had up his sleeve while lying there on the floor, then why try to kill him? Because he damn well knew how dangerous he was. He saw how easily he killed 3 Jedi Masters and he knows that he is a Sith and they cannot be trusted. Sure, maybe he looked helpless, but Mace was wiser than that.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

OK, Mace and Anakin might well have beaten Sidious in a lightsaber battle, but after that, how do you imprison someone and await them to stand trial when at any given minute they could use any number of force actions (e.g. darkside lightning) to hurt anyone or break free? I definitely think Mace was correct when he stated that Sidious was too dangerous to keep alive.

[borgmatrix]

Mace didn’t even believe Anakin was telling the truth about Palps in the first place. “A Sith Lord”, he said incredulously. “IF what you say is true THEN you will have earned my trust.”
Actions speak louder than words. Mace barged into Palpatine's office with 3 other masters and all of whom ignited their lightsabers immediately. He definitely believed it. There was no other reason for such a show of strength and aggression.

Now I know Mace doesn’t have the luxury to weigh his options here – but this was not the right decision.
It was. By this point, it was too late to do things by the book. Mace correctly pointed out that Sidious controlled the Senate and the Courts. And, there was zero evidence against the Chancellor. There was no way he was going to be found guilty. As unfortunate as it may have been, Sidious had to die. If events had unfolded differently much earlier, then perhaps that could have been avoided. But by this point, killing Sidious was the only way to end the Sith threat.

He had Anakin right there who DID make the right call – Palpatine must stand trial.
Anakin made the wrong call for the wrong reason. It was the wrong call as described above. It was for the wrong reason, because what Anakin truly cared about was saving Padme, not ensuring peace for the galaxy. "I need him!" was Anakin's final (and truest) statement to Mace before acting against him to save the Chancellor. That was his motivation.

[lovelucas]

Sure, maybe he looked helpless, but Mace was wiser than that.

Didn’t turn out very well for such a wise man.

He definitely believed it. There was no other reason for such a show of strength and aggression

But he didn’t let Anakin know he believed it, did he? Actually, quite the contrary. And that changed his destiny…and Anakin’s and Palpatine’s.

It was. By this point, it was too late to do things by the book. Mace correctly pointed out that Sidious controlled the Senate and the Courts. And, there was zero evidence against the Chancellor. There was no way he was going to be found guilty.

Thus Mace abandons the Jedi Code – IMO everything was heading down that slippery slope when the Jedi themselves abandoned their historical roles as peacekeepers and became active participants, (even generals in the Clone Wars) making decisions, enacting on those decisions and getting involved – remember when Qui Gon said they could not fight the battle for them (referencing the Battle for Naboo)? THAT was being true to the Jedi Code.

Anakin made the wrong call for the wrong reason. It was the wrong call as described above.

And again, I respectively disagree. Yes, it may have been for the wrong reason but it was indeed the right decision if you’re a Jedi.

[Kam Solusar]

I think, personally, the main thing that all three prequels show very well is that the Jedi have become complacent. By becoming complacent, they become arrogant (a point Yoda brings up, but should have been mentioned more, especially in RotS), so by the time Mace shows up at the Chancellors office, the Jedi have already lost.

If you think about it, what Mace should have done was recalled all the Jedi in the field, or at least sent them messages informing them of the discovery. At the very least, they could have been on guard when Order 66 came down, if not back at the Temple for more even battle. That's even if Order 66 goes through in that sequence of events.

Of course, there's also the idea that it was moot, since Palpatine had machinated events to turn out the way they did. It's been pointed out that Stover's novelization isn't exactly canon, but many of the things in there flesh out the movie so much better. The whole concept of the Jedi Trap, plus the specific idea of getting the Jedi involved in the Clone Wars specifically so they'd be spread all over the galaxy and back...the very idea, specifically "said" aloud that the Clone Wars existed only to be a very large, and very convoluted, and nearly perfect Jedi Trap. If you buy in to that, even a little, then it doesn't matter what Mace does, because as I already mentioned, he already lost. He lost before he even knew he who he was fighting.

[RollaFett]

Sure, maybe he looked helpless, but Mace was wiser than that.

Didn’t turn out very well for such a wise man.

Can't argue with that.


It was. By this point, it was too late to do things by the book. Mace correctly pointed out that Sidious controlled the Senate and the Courts. And, there was zero evidence against the Chancellor. There was no way he was going to be found guilty.

Thus Mace abandons the Jedi Code – IMO everything was heading down that slippery slope when the Jedi themselves abandoned their historical roles as peacekeepers and became active participants, (even generals in the Clone Wars) making decisions, enacting on those decisions and getting involved – remember when Qui Gon said they could not fight the battle for them (referencing the Battle for Naboo)? THAT was being true to the Jedi Code.


This is a point that occurred to me earlier but I forgot to write about it. Let's say that Mace succeeds and kills Palpatine. Now based on what we know about the Jedi, and considering that there would've been a witness to his actions (Anakin), I think that Mace would've had a lot to answer for and may very well have been in a world of trouble for the murder. He would've wound up standing trial and perhaps expelled from the Jedi, at the least. Yes, he probably would've saved the galaxy from the Sith threat, but Anakin surely would've pointed out the fact that a murder took place to do it. Also, to that point, the only people that would've known that Palpatine was Sidious were in that room. Anakin and Mace.
I suppose at that point, it would've been who's word the Jedi believed, but I highly doubt that Mace would've lied.

[borgmatrix]

Now based on what we know about the Jedi, and considering that there would've been a witness to his actions (Anakin), I think that Mace would've had a lot to answer for and may very well have been in a world of trouble for the murder. He would've wound up standing trial and perhaps expelled from the Jedi, at the least.
There's no doubt. And actually, I believe it would be worse than that. In some thread in the past, I brought this up. In all likelihood, Mace killing Palpatine would have meant not just the end of Mace's career, but probably the end of the entire Jedi Order. All trust would have been shattered, given that already people were distrustful of individuals holding such power. A former Jedi leading the Separatists, and then a Jedi killing the Chancellor...there's no way the Order survives that with the high trust that the populace had put in Palpatine (and no evidence of any wrong-doing on his part). I'm certain Order 66, or something like it, would have still occurred. The Jedi would not have survived killing the Chancellor.

But like you said, Rolla, such an action by Mace would have saved the galaxy. And that's the issue, lovelucas. Being a Jedi and standing by the Jedi Code is all well and good. But it has to mean something. Context matters. The most important thing was acting for the benefit of the people and the galaxy. It would be a hollow action and decision to arrest Sidious knowing full well he'd go free and that the galaxy would be enslaved. Rigid adherence to the Code out of principle would have brought nothing to the galaxy in this instance, and was of far less importance than simply doing what was right: ending evil even at the cost of the Order.

By the time of ROTS, the Jedi Order's grave had already been dug. All that was left for them, unfortunately, was making sure the Sith didn't survive, either.

[RollaFett]

You're right. I was only considering Mace's consequences within the order, but as you pointed out, the Jedi order would probably have been done with after that act.
But, as we both pointed out, the greater good would've been served. Sure, the rest of the galaxy would never really know that because there was no proof of Palpatine's Sithdom, but the Jedi would at least know in their hearts.

[Wild Karde 66]

To truly answer the question of the topic - nothing Mace could do would be right. He lost before he ever got to the chancellor's office to arrest palps. Hell the entire Jedi order lost by that point - there was nothing they could do at this stage to stop the shroud from lifting.

I think this is from the novelization and pretty much sums up the Jedi's chance during this whole period - how can you fight an enemy you think is your friend?

[lovelucas]

and Mace's vision was clouded long before this confrontation. If he had been willing to acknowledge his attachment to the Republic and to recognize that attachment took priority over all else he, the Jedi, and the galaxy may have had a chance to checkmate Palpatine. but, as wild carde noted, it was a moot point - damned if you do, damned if you don't.
At this point Mace was acting on desperation, crossing over to the dark side and actually willing to abandon the code because of that desperation.

awwww - it all began with that faceoff between the Jake Lloyd Anakin and the rigidly arrogant Mace - "he will not be trained".
Mace had the chance to at least consider Anakin was telling the truth about Palaptine. His determination to save the Republic at all costs was actually the weapon that doomed him.

[borgmatrix]

and Mace's vision was clouded long before this confrontation. If he had been willing to acknowledge his attachment to the Republic and to recognize that attachment took priority over all else he, the Jedi, and the galaxy may have had a chance to checkmate Palpatine.
I don't agree with that. The Jedi take a lot of flak for getting complacent. Maybe to a degree they did. But, honestly, as things were portrayed in the PT, I don't see what they could have done. More than anything, this seems to be a case of Sidious being too good. The DS was clouding the Force, Sidious was weaving a complicated web...what could they have done? There's no moment in the PT I can see where we could say "there, that's the moment. The Jedi could have ended all of this if they'd acted." By ROTS, it was too late.

At this point Mace was acting on desperation, crossing over to the dark side and actually willing to abandon the code because of that desperation.
He wasn't acting out of anger or hate. He came to the logical conclusion and tried to do what was, at that moment, the best option available to him. I'm sure there was some desperation. But it was the move that needed to be made. Unfortunately, Sidious pretty much already had Anakin in his pocket.

Like I said before, blindly following a code isn't a good thing. There needs to be some thought. The Jedi's greatest problem was probably too rigid a code and expected adherence.

Mace had the chance to at least consider Anakin was telling the truth about Palaptine. His determination to save the Republic at all costs was actually the weapon that doomed him.
As I think we've already discussed, Mace had every reason to distrust Anakin. Skywalker's motivation and actions in that pivotal scene with Mace and Palpatine prove that. Despite that, Mace showed his ultimate trust with a strong entrance with the other Jedi Masters and a firm demand for arrest.

If there's any blame to cast, let's put it on those useless Jedi "Masters". They could have quickly ended things if they hadn't been standing around with their jaws on the floor.

But the largest blame has to fall on Anakin. I understand his confusion. Completely. But attacking Mace in order to protect Sidious so he could maybe save his wife...not a justified reason at all. If Mace had been allowed, he would have ended the threat and saved the galaxy from Sith domination.

[lovelucas]

welllll - I agree with some of what you say.
Yes Palpatine had been patiently moving all the players and hiding in plain site and, as you say, he was just sooooooooo good at being bad.

but - I certainly don't put all the blame on Anakin. Many mistakes were made by many -
Anakin (keeping all those secrets); Obi-Wan (how much did he know and when did he know it? - dreams will pass in time? what if they're nightmares?); Padme (it goes as far back as being the player that allowed Palaptine to become the chancellor but also knowing what she did-acknowledging that an involvement with Anakin would destroy them both yet still not able to stop herself and him); Mace, yes Mace(as mentioned in previous post); the Jedi Council (demanding that Anakin spy on Palpatine yet treating him as a parriah; Yoda (recognizing way too late that Qui Gon was right). and all the good guys seemed to have lost their way - they knew the dark side was growing but couldn't see what was right in front of them.

[Fish1941]

It was. By this point, it was too late to do things by the book. Mace correctly pointed out that Sidious controlled the Senate and the Courts. And, there was zero evidence against the Chancellor.


And this is where I feel that Mace had made his mistake. I think that he should not have acted upon Anakin's revelation and tried to arrest Palpatine. Instead, he and the rest of the Council should have set about finding evidence against Palpatine.

However . . . Palpatine nearly made a fatal mistake by immediately attacking the arresting party. He should have kept his cool and demanded that Mace prove that he was a Sith Lord.

And Anakin made his mistake by leaving the Temple and interferring in the confrontation between Mace and Palpatine.

[lovelucas]

you present some interesting alternatives that would have completely changed the story and galaxy.
Mace was determined to act immediately...what generated that urgency instead of gathering the facts, so to speak. He had already had that discussion with Yoda that the Jedi would have to take over the Senate to ensure a smooth transition.
Obi Wan had just defeated Grevious - if only action could have been delayed until his return....not only for the benefit of Mace but also for Anakin.

[Fish1941]

Mace was determined to act immediately...what generated that urgency instead of gathering the facts, so to speak. He had already had that discussion with Yoda that the Jedi would have to take over the Senate to ensure a smooth transition.

What urgency? I can't recall any real urgency that made it necessary for Mace to immediately act upon Anakin's revelation.


Also, you forgot to add Yoda as among those who had made mistakes - his failure to give Anakin any initial training into the Jedi Order before the latter became Obi-Wan's padawan learner, turning the Geonosis rescue mission into the first battle of the Clone War, agreeing with the rest of the Jedi Council of the plan regarding the Senate . . . and his attempt to kill Palpatine after the latter became emperor.

[borgmatrix]

And this is where I feel that Mace had made his mistake. I think that he should not have acted upon Anakin's revelation and tried to arrest Palpatine. Instead, he and the rest of the Council should have set about finding evidence against Palpatine.
Ideally, that would have happened much earlier. By ROTS, it was too late and there really wasn't any evidence. In that regard, Dooku would have provided the best opportunity for information had Anakin spared him. After Sidious' betrayal, he would have likely been willing to talk. But besides that, there really wasn't anything obvious. The Jedi wouldn't have had time to search around.

However . . . Palpatine nearly made a fatal mistake by immediately attacking the arresting party. He should have kept his cool and demanded that Mace prove that he was a Sith Lord.
You're not taking into account the purpose of that encounter, though. Palpatine was looking for confrontation, first in order to twist things and accuse the Jedi of treason, and second to force Anakin to the Sith side. He was the one who revealed himself to Anakin. Then, when Anakin said he was going to the Council, Palpatine encouraged him. And then waited for the Jedi. If he had been looking to play it cool, or safe, he wouldn't have been there, or he would have had stormtroopers standing by.

Yeah, it was a risk. But one he was willing to take. He downed the 3 Masters quickly, because he couldn't have four of them hanging around. He'd be dead for sure. Then, with just Mace left, he let the battle play out until Anakin arrived, so he could give his performance. Again, yes, it was a risk. Mace could have killed him. But Palpatine had enough confidence in his defense and knew Anakin was on the way.

Things pretty much played out as Palpatine intended.

And Anakin made his mistake by leaving the Temple and interferring in the confrontation between Mace and Palpatine.
No doubt.

He's the one I blame the most, because he had the most knowledge. He knew the circumstances of Palpatine's big reveal and knew that Sidious wanted him as the next Sith apprentice. He had a personal stake and bias, yet chose to go to Palpatine's office anyway. He knew full well that if he acted with Palpatine, he'd be damning everyone else. And he didn't care.

Had he been strong enough, being in the pivotal role he was, he could have ended things well before ROTJ.

[lovelucas]

he did care.... he cared too much.
and Palpatine did not do a full reveal of himself or his intentions until the duel with Mace.

[borgmatrix]

he did care.... he cared too much.
About Padme. I'm talking about caring about the rest of the galaxy and the Jedi Order that he was sending to hell. For them, he didn't care "too much". If he had, he would have remained in the Council chambers as ordered.

and Palpatine did not do a full reveal of himself or his intentions until the duel with Mace.
Palpatine revealed himself to be the Sith Master. That's the biggest reveal that can occur. Just a little thought on Anakin's part would have allowed everything to fall into place.

Palpatine also repeatedly urged Anakin to "know the Dark Side of the Force."

"Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi."

"Use my knowledge, I beg you . . ."

This was all before Anakin went to Mace.

He knew exactly what Palpatine wanted, as well as the level of deception the man had perpetrated on everyone.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I think it's important that we remember that Sidious was very good at adapting situations to fit into his plans. He was not always in control of every situation, people along the way, who he used as pawns, would make decisions he hadn't foreseen or things beyond his control might occur.

I don't believe that Sidious was that much stronger than Mace that he could just play with him and await to be saved by Anakin. At the end of the day had Anakin made the correct choice then Sidious would have been killed. But hey that would leave inconsistencies in the Saga that even GL couldn't explain! :lol:

[borgmatrix]

I don't believe that Sidious was that much stronger than Mace that he could just play with him and await to be saved by Anakin.
JMH, read again what I said above. I never stated or implied that Sidious was toying with Mace. As I said a couple times, he was taking a risk. In fact, I'll say it stronger: Palpatine was taking a big risk. But, like I said, he had enough faith in his own defense to believe he could last long enough for Anakin to arrive. And he did.

I would say Palpatine was genuinely overpowered by Mace. That was the risk he was running. It was inevitable, if he was going to lay back offensively against someone of Mace's caliber. But as long as Palpatine could last long enough, that was all right, since that was the entire point: to appear beaten and on the verge of defeat for Anakin.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Sorry dude, I took the 'let the battle play out' phrase as meaning that Sidious was just toying with Mace, until Anakin arrived.

[Kam Solusar]

I think there was an element of "toying" with him, mainly from the lightning exchange. Palpatine is basically frying himself on purpose. He's throwing lightning at Mace, which Mace is reflecting back at Palpatine...now, I know why Palpatine doesn't just stop throwing the lightning. Mace is about a foot away with a lightsaber. However, why is he just staying still while doing it? He could be shooting bursts and rolling to a safe distance. I think, at this point, he felt Anakin coming and realized this was a perfect setup. He fights back enough to make it look good, and then look "spent." That way it looks to Anakin like Mace is about to kill an "unarmed" helpless adversary.

[borgmatrix]

He fights back enough to make it look good, and then look "spent." That way it looks to Anakin like Mace is about to kill an "unarmed" helpless adversary.
Right, and that's the "performance" aspect I was talking about before. There's no doubt it was for Anakin's benefit. He was faking his weakness, which we saw beyond a shadow of a doubt moments later as he turns it full on with shouts of "Unlimited power!!!"

But with the fight before it, there really wasn't a "toying" aspect. Palpatine was holding back in that he didn't want to end the fight and was waiting for Anakin to arrive. But he'd only be able to do that for so long before Mace overcame him. And that's ultimately what happened. Sidious' defenses broke down and Mace downed him.

But yeah, this whole thing was a setup, and when it came to the "I'm weak, I'm weak" crap, yeah, he was putting on an act.

[RollaFett]

Exactly. Now I'm not saying that he could have, but if he did let completely loose against Mace and managed to kill him before Anakin showed up, what would he use to convince Anakin to turn at that point? All Anakin would've seen were dead Jedi littered all over the office and Palpatine would then need to verbally convince him that he was merely defending himself. And after their last meeting, had Anakin walked in on that scene I don't think he's going to trust Palpatine much at all, let alone join him.
That's why it's easy to feel as though Palpatine was in some sort of control of the fight. Again, I'm not saying that he could simply turn it on and Mace would've been killed quickly. As Borg pointed out, it was a calculated risk that could've easily backfired and cost Palpatine his life instead. But when you're gunning for galactic domination, I suppose you'd have to willing to risk your life to get it, eh?

[borgmatrix]

But when you're gunning for galactic domination, I suppose you'd have to willing to risk your life to get it, eh?
:) Yeah, small price to pay, right?

And you know, we saw the same kind of risk at the beginning, when Palpatine allowed himself to be held prisoner aboard a ship in the midst of battle...all to test whether Anakin had it in him. That ship ended up split in two with their half plummeting through the atmosphere and toward a major crash. Palpatine completely put himself in Anakin's hands there. But he was willing to do that to secure such a powerful apprentice.

I can only imagine his rage when by movie's end, he acquired only a shell of that power.

[lovelucas]

^^^due is some part to his underestimation of Obi Wan

[Fish1941]

But with the fight before it, there really wasn't a "toying" aspect. Palpatine was holding back in that he didn't want to end the fight and was waiting for Anakin to arrive. But he'd only be able to do that for so long before Mace overcame him. And that's ultimately what happened. Sidious' defenses broke down and Mace downed him.


I don't agree. I think that Palpatine was seriously trying to kill Mace. And he had failed before Anakin's arrival. But I do agree that he was faking his weakness upon Anakin's arrival, after Mace had knocked the lightsaber out of his hand.

[borgmatrix]

I don't agree. I think that Palpatine was seriously trying to kill Mace. And he had failed before Anakin's arrival.
Look at Palpatine in his battle against Mace and compare it to his lightsaber duel with Yoda. Are you honestly going to say he's fighting with the same intensity?

Compare the speed of his lightening attack against Mace vs Yoda. Again, there's unquestionably a difference.

And, look at Rolla's last post above and think about what he says. What would Palpatine have accomplished by killing Mace before Anakin arrived? He'd have no leverage to force Anakin to his side. He'd have no scars and deformities to show the Senate to support the Jedi-treason angle.

Ask yourself why Palpatine would even remain in his office, knowing the Jedi were coming, if all he wanted was to kill them before Anakin arrived. Why would he risk his life for no absolutely no reason? Why would he pull out his lightsaber and attack four jedi when he could just plead ignorance? For fun? I don't think so. That's makes absolutely no sense.

You can't look at the battle against Mace in a vacuum. You have to consider it in the context of everything that happens around it to understand the motivations of the characters.

[RollaFett]

^While we're on the same page, I will say that I think Palpatine was indeed having fun. More fun when he fought Yoda, to be sure, but I'm pretty sure he was enjoying himself vs. Mace too. Sure, he didn't attack just to have fun, but fun was had.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Oh, he was sure having fun, he'd been looking forward to it for a long time!

As for how easy it would be for Sidious to defeat Mace, we could comment on it all day, as there is no definitive answer, given the nature of the scene we are discussing. However, regardless of who would win an all out battle with no motive behind it, there is enough evidence to support the fact that Sidious was not significantly stronger than Mace, so that he could just beat him at will. At the time, Mace was the second strongest Jedi lightsaber duellist in the galaxy.

[borgmatrix]

However, regardless of who would win an all out battle with no motive behind it, there is enough evidence to support the fact that Sidious was not significantly stronger than Mace, so that he could just beat him at will. At the time, Mace was the second strongest Jedi lightsaber duellist in the galaxy.
I don't think Sidious would be able to easily defeat Mace, but I do think the Sith Lord was better. I look at Yoda as the best of the best, and Sidious gave him a handful. If Mace and Sidious fought with no other considerations than to defeat the other, I'd lean toward Sids winning.

[lovelucas]

I think we could all agree that Palpatine was surprised at the physical strength and the use of stratigic use of of lightsabers by both Mace and Yoda....at one point Mace was winning his duel....at one point Yoda was winning his duel - but - look who is the victor over both.

therefore, the conclusion could be made that Palpatine had more than a an Anakin trump card being played here.

I think...that with Mace, Palpatine was surprised up to and including the loss of his weapon ...but he always knew he had 2 secret weapons still left - lightening and Anakin and therefore could afford to appear to be losing. with Yoda...I think Yoda could have won but he would have had to sacrifice his Jedi soul to do so.. he would not and could not.

[borgmatrix]

I think we could all agree that Palpatine was surprised at the physical strength and the use of stratigic use of of lightsabers by both Mace and Yoda....
I didn't get that impression exactly. With Yoda, he was definitely aggravated. He kept thinking he had the upper hand, and then just like that, Yoda would answer. And it was clearly pissing him off.

Against Mace, all I saw was the purposeful hate he was exuding, most likely to push Mace to attempt to kill him (rather than arrest him). Almost immediately, Palpatine was overly aggressive, clearly trying to push Mace's buttons.

I think...that with Mace, Palpatine was surprised up to and including the loss of his weapon ...but he always knew he had 2 secret weapons still left - lightening and Anakin and therefore could afford to appear to be losing.
Against Mace, the lightening never seemed like a secret weapon. When he finally used it against Mace, he was so blatantly telegraphing and made the attack so slow and drawn out, that it seemed to be a move to further push Mace into wanting to kill him. Secondarily, it was probably to scar his face for the sake of the Senate (since at any point he could have stopped the lightning, yet he let it warp his face).

with Yoda...I think Yoda could have won but he would have had to sacrifice his Jedi soul to do so.. he would not and could not.
Not sure what you mean. If Yoda had a handle bar in reach to grab onto and Sidious didn't, it would have been Yoda that won that battle. No soul sacrificing needed. He handled everything Sids threw at him, and had far better composure. If not for the fall, he would have defeated the Emperor eventually.

[lovelucas]

Against Mace, all I saw was the purposeful hate he was exuding, most likely to push Mace to attempt to kill him

nicely put :)

Against Mace, the lightening never seemed like a secret weapon.
It certainly was a secret to Mace and Anakin!

with Yoda...I think Yoda could have won but he would have had to sacrifice his Jedi soul to do so.. he would not and could not.

Not sure what you mean. If Yoda had a handle bar in reach to grab onto and Sidious didn't, it would have been Yoda that won that battle. No soul sacrificing needed. He handled everything Sids threw at him, and had far better composure. If not for the fall, he would have defeated the Emperor eventually.

What I mean is this: to defeat Sidious, Yoda would have had to cross over to the dark side - must have been tempting, the dark side was beckoning but Yoda would then have had to abandon, even briefly, all that he and Jedi Order stood for and had embraced as the Holy Grail. and let's remember what he will say in the future to Luke: once down the dark side......forever it will control your destiny. I believe that Yoda's only new hope for a future was found in the advice that Padme gave Bail: live to fight another day.

[borgmatrix]

Against Mace, all I saw was the purposeful hate he was exuding, most likely to push Mace to attempt to kill him

nicely put :)
Thanks. :)

Against Mace, the lightening never seemed like a secret weapon.
It certainly was a secret to Mace and Anakin!
Right, in the sense that they didn't realize he was capable of it. But I meant it didn't seem to be his approach to keep that lightning hidden away until he could spring it. Against Yoda, he used that attack immediately. And would bring it out anytime he was in danger. Such as when he lost sight of Yoda and the Jedi Master suddenly dropped in. Wham! Out came the lightning attack to bail him out and disarm Yoda.

Against Mace, we never saw that. Which again seems to suggest he never truly felt he was in danger, or was controlling things well enough that he didn't feel he needed it. I think if he genuinely feared for his life when Mace jump kicked him, he would have immediately fired off the lightning (as against Yoda). But he knew Anakin was about to arrive and that Mace wasn't about to attempt to end his life.

What I mean is this: to defeat Sidious, Yoda would have had to cross over to the dark side - must have been tempting, the dark side was beckoning but Yoda would then have had to abandon, even briefly, all that he and Jedi Order stood for and had embraced as the Holy Grail.
I don't think there's any reason to say that Yoda needed the DS to win. If he had been completely overwhelmed, perhaps. But that wasn't even close to being the case. Sid's great attack was his Force lightning, and Yoda was more than capable of absorbing it and channeling it back. Sidious with the use of the Dark Side was struggling to defeat Yoda. The little green Jedi Master was doing just fine with the Light Side of the Force. He demonstrated by action what he would later tell Luke: that the DS of the Force is NOT stronger than the LS.

[lovelucas]

but....if Yoda was doing fine w/o assistance then how did he lose? of course this is still just my opinion, but at some point he recognized he was losing the duel - I would say about the time of that extreme closeup where Sidious does have the upper hand, due in some part to his height - he's pressing down on Yoda, lightsaber vs lightsaber - that's when Yoda could have chosen to trip the dark fantastic. It wouldn't have been our Yoda if he had....but the option was there..
This battle was indeed worth fighting and winning - it's the future of the entire galaxy but Yoda knows the power of the dark side and what it can do..permanently.

[borgmatrix]

but....if Yoda was doing fine w/o assistance then how did he lose?
Because he fell. It was as simple as that. And that's my point. It very easily could have been Sidious who fell. It was a very close battle that ended up being decided by positioning, not by who was using which side of the Force. An unfortunate turn of events for Yoda, but it happened.

[RollaFett]

but....if Yoda was doing fine w/o assistance then how did he lose? of course this is still just my opinion, but at some point he recognized he was losing the duel - I would say about the time of that extreme closeup where Sidious does have the upper hand, due in some part to his height - he's pressing down on Yoda, lightsaber vs lightsaber - that's when Yoda could have chosen to trip the dark fantastic. It wouldn't have been our Yoda if he had....but the option was there..
This battle was indeed worth fighting and winning - it's the future of the entire galaxy but Yoda knows the power of the dark side and what it can do..permanently.

Y'know, I kinda like your thinking here, and you can take it even further. Let's say Yoda does tap into the dark side to beat Palpatine, and as Yoda himself says "once you head down the dark side...forever will it dominate your destiny". Well, I think you can come to the conclusion that Yoda fears it would dominate his destiny. Sure, Palpatine is dead, and the galaxy may be saved, but what's to stop Yoda from simply taking Palpatine's place? He's already tapped into the dark side and we know what he feels will happen once you do that. That's enough reason right there to prevent him from doing it.

[lovelucas]

and that Rolla, is exactly what I was trying to say. thanks -

what a great story this is.....I just keep coming back to that essence - with every discussion, with every post.

[RollaFett]

Figured you were thinking that.
All of that said, though, I'm not even sure that any of that even crossed Yoda's mind. However, if it did, I think it's safe to say that he would've thought along those lines.
Now, as far as Mace goes...he definately was flirting with the dark side.

[lovelucas]

Mace was quite the dark side dabbler - remembering Shatterpoint et al. and it was he who talked of taking over the Senate to "provide a peaceful transition" but that was very close to seeking power as Yoda noted "to a dark place this thinking will lead us". Mace always, always had good intentions but he was so intent on preserving the Republic he was willing to flat out kill the temporarily unarmed Palpatine ....but now I realize we've traveled full circle back to the initial debate.

[RollaFett]

Bingo!
As Sidious would say, "Everything is going as I have planned."
[cue evil laugh]

[Wild Karde 66]

So......

What was Mace supposed to do?

[RollaFett]

Ahhh...my young padawan. There are close to six pages discussing that very thing.
My opinion is that he did exactly what he should have, except he failed and got thrown out the window instead.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

My opinion is that he did exactly what he should have, except he failed and got thrown out the window instead.

Agreed, there was nothing else he could have done in the situation he found himself in.

[Wild Karde 66]

Ahhh...my young padawan. There are close to six pages discussing that very thing.
My opinion is that he did exactly what he should have, except he failed and got thrown out the window instead.

Read them all master - I just figured that with coming full circle, the question should have been asked again.

And the answer would have been - mabye ask Ani a follow question other than "A Sith Lord?! How do you know?"

Maybe one or two would have been enough to realize that they were being set up.

[RollaFett]

Yup, yup. And that was another route that was discussed earlier as well, but well worth mentioning again. If there is one aspect that has generally been agreed upon by most participants in this thread it's that Mace definately acted too quickly after Anakin tells him about Palpatine. He didn't ask enough questions after that revelation nor take time to plan on what to do next.

[Wild Karde 66]

Might we say that Mace was just slightly arrogant?

Like most of the Jedi by that time.

[lovelucas]

hate to go here but...
Mace is a bad MF - didn't think he would have any trouble at all no matter what awaited him and his posse over at Palp's Place

[RollaFett]

Yeah, can't argue with that.
I caught the scene where Anakin tells Mace about Palptine yesterday.
Off the top of my head, it goes like this:
Mace: We've just gotten word that General Grievous has been destroyed. We're going to see Palpatine now and see that he gives up his emergency powers.
Anakin: He won't. I've just discovered a terrible truth. I think that Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.
Mace: A Sith lord?!
Anakin: Yes, the one we've been looking for.
Mace: Are you sure?
Anakin: Yes.
Mace: How do you know this?
Anakin: He knows the ways of the Force. He's famaliar with the dark side.
Mace: Then our worst fears have come true.

And then they start walking to the transport and Anakin tries to go with him, etc.
What I found interesting was that Mace actually did ask a couple of quick followup questions that I had forgotten about. Sure, it was