"You Don't Need Guidance . . ."

[Redsabre]

Whew! I've seen AOTC 5 times in four days, and I noticed that the beginning of Anakin's fall to the Dark Side takes place relatively early in the film, NOT when he takes his revenge against the sandpeople who killed Shmi.

First, we saw Anakin levitating that sphere in Amidala's quarters . . . he was doing that simply for the sake of trying to impress her with his skills. And later on Naboo, when he uses the Force to float that piece of fruit from Amidala's plate so that he can cut it for her, he remarks
" If Master Kenobi saw me doing this, he'd be really upset."
Why? Could it be that Anakin has a habit of using his powers playfully and to no purpose? "With great power comes great resonsibility." That's not just a line from Spider-Man, but one of the truths about power that applies in the world we live in. Anakin seems to use his abilities almost childishly, for the purpose of drawing attention to himself. The only problem is, using your power to impress someone isn't but a couple of short steps from using your power to intimidate and threaten others.

[catwmnjedi]

Yes, RS, I found that interesting and surprising that Anakin was already exploring the "Dark Side" before AOTC, probably without Obi-Wan realizing it. I realize it's not SW Cannon, but I read "Rogue Planet", in which Anakin actually kills another being with the Force for the first time at age 12. Granted it was self-defense, but the book left the impression that he never told Obi-Wan about the incident.

I'm starting to think Palpy's role in Anakin's life is even bigger than we first realized. One of my theories is that Anakin DID have a father, Shmi just didn't know who it was. It will be interesting to see if this is revealed in EP3.

With great power comes great responsibility, but absolute power corrupts absolutely! Anakin seems willing to take on that role, but why? When he was little his mother claimed he gave without thought of reward. He dreamt about being a Jedi, so leaving his mother would distress him, but you'd think he could handle that in time.

I wish they would have played more on how Qui-Gon's death likely affected both Anakin and Obi-Wan. There were hints of it, like when Obi-Wan said "dreams fade in time"... I assumed he was also referencing his own nightmares about Qui-Gon's death. All those events are connected and contribute to Anakin's fall. I hope EP3 makes that even more clear.

[Redsabre]

I didn't read Rogue Planet , so I can't really comment about the events of that book. If it was self-defense, I don't think it could be termed as a use of the Dark Side.

Now . . . I watched TPM again the other night, and I noticed that before the pod race, Qui-Gon tells Anakin
"Feel. Don't think. LIve in the moment." Then early on in AOTC, Palpatine tells Anakin "You don't need quidance. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings." It's significant that the times we see Anakin using his powers lightly all take place out of Obi-Wan's presence.

And then later towards the end of AOTC, I think we saw a bit of foreshadowing of the conflict to come between Obi-Wan and Anakin, when Obi-Wan yells at Anakin to "Think! Use the Force!" Obi-Wan seems to be the only one who's urging Anakin not to trust his feelings. Hmmmm.....
perhaps a continuation of the debate between the "living Force" and the "Unifying Force" is in the future.

[Tovor]

I have a small but major comment to make, and bump this up to the top of the list because this subject has merit. *In the AOTC novel, which I purchased just today but only got to read the first couple of pages so far, Anakin was troubled from his nightmares, but he didn't feel he could talk to Obi-Wan about it, and did not intend to tell him. Instead he couldn't wait to return to Coruscant to seek guidence from one who could help him deal with his feelings. *Not Yoda or Mace, but Chancellor Palpatine. *In the film, in Palpatine's office, we got the idea that Anakin had received some guidence from Palpatine. But the section that I just read indicated that Palpatine had been guiding him for the last 10 years, having taken an interest in him after the Naboo conflict. *I suspect now that far more than his age or his immaturity, it is Palpatine's subliminal suggestions that have turned Anakin against Obi-Wan's superior teaching. *I see now that just as he has been planning his clone army for 10 years and his rise to higher power, he has also been grooming Anakin for 10 years to fall into his lead, not Obi-Wan's lead. *In the Bible Jesus said you cannot serve 2 masters,(God and Money), and here is the similarity. *Anakin was serving 2 masters, one a Jedi and the other a Sith, long before he turned to the dark side, and the one was carefully guiding Anakin to disregard the other's teachings.

[DanielSkywalker]

Yep, you hit the nail on the head, Tovor. I too noticed that line where Anakin noted that Palpatine's guidance had helped him throughout his time training to become a Jedi. I think that this will definitly be a factor in EPIII, where he chooses to follow Palpatine's guidance over that of Obi-Wan's and the Council's thus subjecting himself to the temptation of the Dark Side.

[JediBendu]

ya but is it force guidence or just guidence on how to pick up gorgeous senators.
For such a small scene it really spoke volumes.
I don't think a Jedi would be seeking guidence on anything else but the application of the force. His candid levatation in front of Padme shows he's already practicing what he should be doing. The impetuousness of the exchange also points to the dark side coursing through his veins.
Which leads to another question, if Anakin is receiving force guidence from Palpatine, why hasn't he told the council. Because his selfishness and pride want him to find out more of Palpatine's teaching, going behind Obi's back.

[Kyan]

Anakin's fall from grace began, in my opinion, before AOTC. His arrogance illustrated by his defiance of Obi-Wan's lead; the way he seeks thrills when he flies his speeder over Corusant (much to the alarm of his Master); he’s brash and impatient exemplified by his wanting to rush into the bar to chase the bounty hunter and not listening to the lessons Obi-Wan is trying to instil in him, but merely dismissing them with a courteous ‘yes, Master’, ‘I try, Master’; when over Zam Wessel's maimed body, he deliberately intimidates her (to the obvious surprise of Obi-Wan) by yelling 'TELL US NOW!'; and as mentioned before, the way he uses the Force to impress Padme by levitating the sphere and piece of fruit.

But also... throughout the film you can track his demise as he looses control. He's too 'frightened' to tease the Senator on Naboo; he ‘hates’ the Sandpeople (for good cause, but hates them nonetheless); he berates Obi-Wan to Padme for holding him back persistently, even as far as going to say that he’s surpassed Obi-Wan himself.

You can tell that he has not learned well the principles of being a Jedi after 10 years of training. Palpatine only helps to fuel Anakin’s ego by saying things like he ‘doesn’t need guidance’ and that he’ll be the ‘greatest Jedi of them all’. All a part of his great plan to woo a disgruntled Anakin to the freedom of the Dark Side, undoubtedly!

[Count Dooku]

True. Anakin seemed arrogant through out the movie. Plus Palpatine took advantage of Anakin's attitude, and also took advantage by deciting him so he'd go to the dark side maybe we'll see in Ep3.

[Tovor]

http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/otn/blobs/vuur1.gifBump. http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/otn/blobs/ukliam2.gif

[MegoHulk]

Yes it's a subtle hint that Palpatine is the Emperor, well for those who don't think he really is anyways. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif I really like the scenes with Palpy and Anakin in both movies..great forshadowing. By the way...I like your sig RedSabre style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

"It's just a jump to the left......."

[maddog62]

I think the actions, we see with Anakin are to show his reckless behavior. In life when you act with risky behavior eventually it leads to destructive behavior. We see Watto who up until Anakin becomes 5years old, is his only father figure. Qui-Gon tells him that when you gamble you eventually loose. In Attack of the Clones we visit Watto and see that he has hit rock bottom and the destructive behavior effected himself. Anakins risky behavior will lead to his destructive nature but it will not just effect him, Jedi, innocent people , and the whole known galaxy will be effected. That is why Yoda is quick to point out to Luke that he is RECLESS. Yoda try's to get the Son of Skywalker to plan out his actions carefully before he acts. We see this success during the rescue of Han on Tatoonie. Yoda's influence sits in Lukes mind. The difference between Luke and Anakin is Anakin acts without thought of consequences and Luke although acts on his emotions doesn't want to let down Yoda and Obi-Wan. Maybe this attribute comes from the fact that Luke was brought up well from his Uncle. Hence you can take the farm boy off the farm and train him to be a Jedi but you will never take the farm out of the Jedi.

[Plo Koon]

Originally posted by Redsabre@May 21 2002, 09:29 PM
I didn't read Rogue Planet , so I can't really comment about the events of that book. If it was self-defense, I don't think it could be termed as a use of the Dark Side.

Now . . . I watched TPM again the other night, and I noticed that before the pod race, Qui-Gon tells Anakin
"Feel. Don't think. LIve in the moment." Then early on in AOTC, Palpatine tells Anakin "You don't need quidance. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings." It's significant that the times we see Anakin using his powers lightly all take place out of Obi-Wan's presence.

And then later towards the end of AOTC, I think we saw a bit of foreshadowing of the conflict to come between Obi-Wan and Anakin, when Obi-Wan yells at Anakin to "Think! Use the Force!" Obi-Wan seems to be the only one who's urging Anakin not to trust his feelings. Hmmmm.....
perhaps a continuation of the debate between the "living Force" and the "Unifying Force" is in the future.
??? Would trusting your feelings be a good thing or a bad thing. In ANH Obi-Wan told Luke to do just that.

[Jacen Solo]

Originally posted by Tovor@Jun 5 2002, 12:54 AM
In the Bible Jesus said you cannot serve 2 masters,(God and Money), and here is the similarity. *Anakin was serving 2 masters, one a Jedi and the other a Sith, long before he turned to the dark side, and the one was carefully guiding Anakin to disregard the other's teachings.
Well said, Plo Koon. Y'all have some really great ideas. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[Angel_Blue]

How anikin falls to the dark side has been discused alot before this,but they are really old I think,so it's good to have one that is up to date.

[Javen]

What has Palpitine told him is the question.

Has he possibly been telling him that the Jedi are all but extinct or failing or what could he be telling Anakin?

[Lord Laviathan]

But you forget that Yoda stated being arrogant is a trait being seen more and more. Im sure some Jedi when there younger love to show off what they learned to do,even in our world im sure you all have something unique to all of you that you all love to show off with the opportunity. This is not mean he is bad or a child just his cahracter relates to all of us,and dont deny it you all do it. His first real step and GL even said it was when his mother died and he was overwhelmed by anger,selfishness,and fear. Other than that Anakin is only Arrogant and unpredictable.

[echoseven]

Great points by everyone. I think the major key to Anakin's turn is "point of view".
Palpatine has been giving Anakin guidance and from Anakin's point of view, Palpatine is a great man, why? Because he feeds into Anakin's ego and so on. To Anakin, the Jedi will likely be viewed as Traitors. IF the star wars saga were written from Palpatine's point of view, they would be traitors as well.

[Jacen Solo]

I wouldn't be surprised if Palpatine has counseled Anakin on matters of love, too. For example ...

Palpatine: What is troubling you, Anakin?
Anakin: Well ... the girl of my dreams has come back into my life for the first time in ten years, and I ...
Palpatine: Oh, dear. Is it Senator Amidala? (Anakin nods.) Why is this troubling you? I should think you would be very happy!

Et cetera, et cetera.
I am suggesting that perhaps Palpatine's counsel has helped make Anakin's attachment to Padme Amidala much stronger, thus drawing him away from his Jedi commitments.
Thoughts?