Notes on Revenge of the Sith

[Fish1941]

EPISODE 3 – REVENGE OF THE SITH


Notes and Observations


The following is a list of minor notes and observations that came to me, during my recent viewing of “Episode III: Revenge of the Sith”. I hope that you enjoy them:

*How ironic that this story begins with the “rescue” of Chancellor Palpatine – the very person who has exploited the Jedi’s weaknesses to bring about their downfall. I wonder if both Anakin and Obi-Wan ever came to regret the success of their mission.

*I noticed how both Anakin and Obi-Wan seemed to be flying in perfect sync with each other in the opening sequences. And yet, as they get closer to Palpatine (who is “being held prisoner” aboard Grievous’ ship), things begin to go wrong. Perhaps this situation is an allegory of their relationship at this stage of the story.

*”Flying is for droids.” – Odd comment for Obi-Wan to make, considering that his former padawan is such an excellent pilot. Does this mean that Anakin can be viewed as a future droid?

*Poor R4-D17. At least he had three good years with Obi-Wan

*The usually cautious Obi-Wan zips out of his starfighter cockpit in a flash and starts striking down droids. Meanwhile, Anakin takes his time to unfasten his safety restraint and climb out of his cockpit. This might possibly be a sign of how the two men have adopted each other’s way of handling matters. This also reminds me of how both men had dealt with their “animus” nature inside the Geonosis arena in AOTC.

*Notice how both Count Dooku and General Grievous seem to foreshadow Anakin’s future as Darth Vader. Count Dooku represented the Jedi Knight/Master who became Palpatine’s Sith apprentice. Grievous represented the cyborg that Anakin will become.

*R2-D2’s efforts to hide from the Separatist droids must be one of the funniest sequences I have ever seen in a STAR WARS movie.

*”Uh, no loose wire jokes.” – Dear Anakin. It’s nice to see there is one advocate for the droids.

*The Chancellor’s seat on Grievous’ ship strongly reminds me of his throne in ROTJ.

*”Chancellor Palpatine, Sith Lords are our specialty.” – Oh dear. Obi-Wan seemed to be in danger of becoming too self-assured. The last time he had believed that he and Anakin could take out Dooku, Yoda ended up saving them.

*”Good! Twice the pride. Double the fall.” – It seems that Count Dooku is also suffering from the same kind of arrogance.

*Anakin tells Dooku that he has become twice as powerful, since their last encounter on Geonosis. How is it that despite the loss of an arm, his connection to the Force has strengthened? Makes me wonder if Lucas’ comment that Anakin’s loss of limbs on Mustafar had weakened his connection to the Force is a lot of bull.

*Anakin and Obi-Wan’s pride and aggression nearly cost them in their second duel against Dooku. Only Dooku’s own pride and arrogance saved them in the long run.

*Dooku had been right to criticize Anakin for not using his anger in their lightsaber duel. When Anakin finally did, he pretty much had it in control . . . until Palpatine convinced him to lose that control and kill Dooku.

*I also noticed that unlike Obi-Wan and Dooku, Anakin’s lightsaber skills do not seem as flashy as theirs. His style seemed to be similar to Qui-Gon and Mace – very direct and with very little complicated moves.

*I could not help but wonder what was going through Palpatine’s mind, when his life – along with Anakin and Obi-Wan’s – were in danger, while trying to escape from Grievous’ ship.

*”General Grievous . . . you’re shorter than I had expected.” – Hmm, now I see from whom Leia had inherited her sardonic manner.

*Has Obi-Wan become a little too cocky about his skills? He had chopped off the head of a Magna guard and walked away . . . only to be surprised to learn that it could still fight.

*Meanwhile, Anakin managed to show a predilection for patience – only in the wrong situation. It almost seemed as if an alien spirit had taken control of his body. Obi-Wan noticed and quite wisely disapproved. He knew that Anakin was not being true to himself.

*General Grievous’s escape from his ship struck me as being quite daring and masterful. I could also say the same about how Anakin had landed Grievous’ ship on Coruscant. As Obi-Wan said, “Another happy landing.”

*For the first time, I had noticed that the skies of Coruscant were cloudy . . . overcast. They seemed to hint the rising storm that will eventually erupt throughout the Republic.

*Was that Lucas’ daughter – a blue-skinned alien – amongst the welcoming committee for Palpatine?

*This is rare – Leia’s future father and stepfather actually have a scene together.

*Although Padme seemed to be wearing Leia’s infamous bun hairdo, I noticed that her hairstyle is slightly different.

*The moment that Anakin expressed his desire to end the deception over his marriage to Padme, she quickly opposed the idea. She must have been afraid of facing the consequences of their deception.

*John Williams’ score for this movie seemed darker and more martial than anything else heard in a STAR WARS movie. Has anyone else noticed this?

*I simply love the shot of Padme brushing her hair on the balcony, while Anakin watches her. Very romantic.

*”So, love has blinded you?” –Padme may have been speaking of Anakin. Then again, she may have been speaking of herself. Or both.

*It is interesting that Anakin has been reluctant to express his troubles to Padme. This must have been the case ever since his murder of the Tusken Raiders on Tatooine. One would say that all is not paradise with their marriage. But I must say . . . if their marriage had seemed like paradise, I would have been suspicious.

*The scene between Anakin and Yoda struck me as being rather cold. I wonder if this had been the first time Anakin had sought the counsel of the Jedi Master.

*I am curious as to why Obi-Wan had never exerted more effort to discourage Anakin’s friendship with Palpatine.

*I find it interesting that Anakin seemed more disturbed by the Jedi Council’s suggestion that he spy upon Palpatine than he was by the latter’s suggestion that he does the same with the Jedi Council. Especially after he had insisted that Anakin join the Council.

*After Mace reveals the Jedi Council’s decision not to make Anakin a Master, I noticed that both he and Obi-Wan seemed to express momentary flashes of guilt. And Yoda seemed to be making an attempt to distance himself from Anakin’s reaction by closing his eyes for a brief moment.

*Of course, Anakin’s reaction to the decision did seem very immature, as indicated by Mace’s order that he take a seat. But after Anakin had apologized for his outburst, Obi-Wan shook his head in silent disapproval of his former padawan.

*”It’s what you wanted. Your friendship with Chancellor Palpatine seemed to have paid off.” – For those who claimed that Obi-Wan understood Anakin very well, really need to read the above statement or watch that scene again. Why would Obi-Wan assume that Anakin had used his friendship with Palpatine to become a member of the Jedi Council? Why would he accuse Anakin of harboring ambitions to become a Council member, when he had admonished Qui-Gon, years earlier, for failing to reach such an achievement? What a curious man.

*If Obi-Wan was against Anakin spying on Palpatine, why did he insist that the young Knight accept the assignment in the first place? And why didn’t Anakin act on his feelings and refuse the assignment? I believe this scene is a clear case of Obi-Wan failing Anakin . . . and Anakin failing himself.

*Someone once stated that Padme had maintained her idealism of the Republic to the bitter end. And yet, in one scene, she tries to convince Anakin that the Republic was in danger of becoming the very evil she had opposed for so long.

*Why did Padme ask Anakin to discuss ending the war with Palpatine? I can see why he was upset. Like the Jedi, Padme seemed willing to use Anakin to further her own agenda regarding Palpatine.

*I noticed that Padme managed to change the subject from politics to personal matters in the same way Anakin had done during the Naboo picnic scene in AOTC.

*”All who gain power are afraid to lose it.” – Who would have thought that Palpatine would utter the very words that seemed to be the theme of the Prequel Trilogy. His words – more or less – seemed to describe all of the major characters. Including himself.

*Anakin must have been very desperate to believe Palpatine’s claim that he had knowledge of a way to save Padme through the use of the Force.

*Why was the Jedi Council so determined to refrain Anakin from going to Utaapau? Was their decision a reaction to the revelation that Palpatine had suggested that Anakin take part in that military operation?

*I wonder what was going through Anakin’s mind when he and Obi-Wan spoke for the last time as friends.

*So, not only does Anakin believe that the Jedi Council mistrust him, but also Obi-Wan. And I don’t know if he was right or wrong.

MORE TO FOLLOW

[Fish1941]

More notes on REVENGE OF THE SITH:

*”You expect too much of yourself.” – Padme was right. No wonder Anakin was determined to save her from death. A way to make up for Shmi’s death, perhaps?

*I like the look and style of the official that greeted Obi-Wan on Utaapau.

*Once again, Obi-Wan manages to remind me that he can be a little too arrogant in dealing with opponents. Facing Grievous turned out to be more difficult than had possibly imagined. Even if the Separatist general could barely use a lightsaber with barely any skill.

*I find it fascinating that the Jedi Council would even consider getting rid of Palpatine without the Senate’s authority. Even if it meant accepting Ki-Adi Mundi’s suggestion that the Council take control of the Senate.

*Palpatine was right that one must accept all aspects of nature – both the light and the dark. What he had failed to add was that the Sith were just as narrow and dogmatic in their view of the Force, as the Jedi.

*”So uncivilized.” - There’s nothing like a good blaster at your side, eh Obi-Wan?

*”For your own good, stay out of this affair. I sense a great deal of confusion in you, young Skywalker. There is much fear that clouds your judgment.” – Many people believe that Mace was wrong not to include Anakin in Palpatine’s arrest. I feel differently. Just listening to his words, made me realize that he had accurately sensed Anakin’s emotional state. If only he had heeded Mace’s words, Anakin would not have ended up with more blood on his hands. For those who say that Anakin would have destroyed Palpatine if Mace had allowed him to participate in the arrest. In truth, no one really knows what would have happened. Unfortunately, no one wants to admit this.

*Mace and the other three Jedi Knights did activate their lightsabers first. If they were there to arrest Palpatine, surely they should have received permission from the Senate. However, I noticed that Palpatine was the first to attack. And he nearly paid the price for his act of aggression.

*Aside from Mace, Palpatine failed to immediately kill Kit Fisto. And all because Mace had briefly intervened.

*Anakin arrived when Mace declared Palpatine under arrest. Then the latter attacked the Jedi Master with Force electrokinesis. Because he had disobeyed Mace, Anakin took his final steps into becoming a Sith Lord.

*”To cheat death is a power that only one has achieved.” Who was Palpatine talking about? Surely not Plageuis, who had failed to cheat death, thanks to his apprentice. And Palpatine knew nothing of Qui-Gon’s spiritual achievement.

*Although Anakin seemed willing to assist and agree with Palpatine, his face seemed to express great reluctance.

*Magnificent shot of Anakin leading the clone troopers to the Jedi Temple.

*Probably one of the most heartbreaking sequences in the entire STAR WARS saga is the execution of Order 66.

*What sort of vehicles were the clone troopers riding during their search for Yoda on Kashyyyk?

*I wonder what would have happened if Anakin had not told Padme of his intent to travel to Mustafar?

*Yoda had expressed belief that it would be easy for him and Obi-Wan to infiltrate the Jedi Temple. Yet, the two Jedi Masters found themselves forced to battle clone troopers guarding the Temple.

*It is interesting that Anakin’s murder of the Separatists leaders occurred around the same time as Palpatine’s declaration as the galaxy’s first emperor.

*Once more, a Jedi Master decides to move against Palpatine without the Senate’s consent. This time, it is Yoda, who decides to kill the Sith Lord. No wonder it was easy for Anakin to view the Jedi as a threat to the galaxy.

*Padme looked particularly heartbroken when Obi-Wan informed her that Anakin had become a Sith Lord.

*Why couldn’t Obi-Wan simply planted a tracker on Padme’s ship, instead of stowing away?

*You can hear signs of the Anakin/Padme love theme from AOTC, when Padme arrived on Mustafar.

*Anakin had an odd, calm expression on his face, while Padme was talking to him. And when he began talking about ruling the galaxy, his expression became even odder.

*Boy, Obi-Wan’s appearance on Mustafar was badly time. Which makes me question his decision to stowaway aboard Padme’s skiff even more.

*I forgot that Padme had been unconscious during Anakin and Obi-Wan’s duel.

*It is interesting that Obi-Wan was the first to light up his lightsaber.

*I now realize that Anakin and Obi-Wan’s duel was not about good versus evil. I believe that it was about years of resentment and anger finally exploding between two men who once loved each other as brothers, despite their disagreements. Hence, the use of blue lightsabers by both and the exploding fire and lava that surrounded them.

*Anakin and Obi-Wan’s out-of-control emotions during the duel seemed like a clear indication of why both had failed to achieve their goals. Anakin’s rash move near the lava bank had resulted in the loss of his legs and his other arm – and spending the rest of his life in the suit. Obi-Wan’s failure to immediately kill Anakin on that lava bank resulted in Vader’s impact upon the galaxy for over the next twenty years . . . and Obi-Wan’s eventual death.

*Hayden Christensen and Ewan McGregor’s moved very fast in their duel scenes. And I’m not simply referring to what was shown on the movie screen. I’m also referring to their practice sessions shown in the DVD’s Special Features disk.

*”Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda.” – I hate to say this, but Palpatine was right. But he could have also been referring to himself. As for Yoda, he made the worse mistake of attacking Palpatine’s guards upon entering the Emperor’s office. He had attacked the guards in the presence of Mas Amedda, the Senate’s leader. An accusation of an assassination attempt by the Jedi would not be far from the truth.

*”My little green friend.” – I would not be surprised if those words had pissed off Yoda.

*Anakin and Obi-Wan’s duel lasted longer than Yoda and Palpatine’s.

*”You were the Chosen One!” – Obi-Wan went into full rant after chopping off Anakin’s limbs. This is an example that he was just as emotional as Anakin during the duel. Of course, I cannot help but wonder why he did not kill Anakin, and allowed the latter to suffer a possible prolonged death on the lava bank.

*Palpatine’s return to Coruscant with a wounded Anakin happened in the midst of fierce rain storm. This scene reminded of that old lady’s words to the nine year-old Anakin in TPM – “Storm’s comin, Ani!” This had occurred before Maul’s arrival on Tatooine. Palpatine and Anakin’s return in the first mentioned scene truly indicated that the storm has finally struck the Republic.

*The expression on Anakin’s face as his Vader mask was being lowered upon him was truly heartbreaking.

*”There’s still good in him.” – If only Obi-Wan had heeded Padme’s words. But . . . he thought that Anakin was dead. On the other hand, the infant Luke did listen. This was perhaps, Padme’s greatest contribution.

*Palpatine seemed pleased by Anakin’s show of power inside the infirmary, when the latter learned of Padme’s death.

*The movie’s last shot of Padme is the japoor snippet that Anakin had given her, years ago.

*I think I must have cried during the movie’s last ten to fifteen minutes. Oh well. On to A NEW HOPE.

[Tovor]

*It is interesting that Obi-Wan was the first to light up his lightsaber.

I noticed that too, that the Jedi have seemingly almost always made the first move.

Not only him in that time, but it was Obi and Qui who lit their sabers first when facing Maul, and Luke lit first when he faced Vader in Cloud City.

*”To cheat death is a power that only one has achieved.” Who was Palpatine talking about? Surely not Plageuis, who had failed to cheat death, thanks to his apprentice. And Palpatine knew nothing of Qui-Gon’s spiritual achievement.

He was talking about Plageuis, the one so powerful and wise he could use the Force to prevent those he cared about from dying. But the irony was that after telling his secret to his apprentice, young Sidious, the apprentice killed him. "Ironic," Palpatine has said to Anakin at the opera, "He could save others from death, but not himself." So indeed Plagueis had cheated death from taking those he loved, regardless of not being able to save himself when he was killed in his sleep.

You know, a few years ago Lucas had implied, unless I had read too much into his statement in an interview, that it was through the Chosen One that the later Jedi would learn to become one with the Force, as if Anakin was the key to them being able to do that. So I was not surprised when Yoda told Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon had returned from death, but I was surprised that there was no mention of the connection between his ability to return and Anakin's prophetic powers. Unless Lucas changed his mind about what role Anakin's unknown powers would play in that.

But if we say for discussion's sake that it was through the Chosen One that Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Yoda were able to return from the netherworld, then it is even more ironic that Anakin trusted Palpatine and joined him to learn the power...when he had the power within him all along.

"I know that there are things about the Force that the Jedi are not telling me." Interesting. Imagine if the Jedi had known that he could eventually save people from death and had not told him of that? If he had known the truth, if that in fact was the truth, then he would have known that he didn't need Palpatine at all to save Padme because the power was already in him.

[Fish1941]

But the irony was that after telling his secret to his apprentice, young Sidious, the apprentice killed him. "Ironic," Palpatine has said to Anakin at the opera, "He could save others from death, but not himself." So indeed Plagueis had cheated death from taking those he loved, regardless of not being able to save himself when he was killed in his sleep.

I'm a little confused here. Plagueis had told Palpatine his secret? When? When Anakin had brought up the subject for the second time, Palpatine stated that he had never learned Plagueis' secret. He also suggested that they learn it together, as master and apprentice. And Palpatine had used science - made a clone of himself - in order to "live" following his death on the second Death Star.

And exactly how did Plagueis managed to cheat death by taking those he loved?

[Darth Octavious]

When? Hopefully the book will tell in 2008. Second time? What scene was that, refresh my memory.

I always thought it was that you can see in the future(visions) so you would know what to do. But then again if I just turn to the dark side, I will asking question like: What do you mean together we will learn? Don't you know how?

[borgmatrix]

*The usually cautious Obi-Wan zips out of his starfighter cockpit in a flash and starts striking down droids.
I don't know that Obi-wan is that cautious. After all, he was the one to dive through that window in Padme's room in AOTC. Not only was that the opposite of cautious, I'd almost call that idiotic.

However, I did notice the flair with which Obi-wan leaped out of his fighter, and that Anakin slowly left his. It is interesting and a good observation.

*R2-D2’s efforts to hide from the Separatist droids must be one of the funniest sequences I have ever seen in a STAR WARS movie.
Agreed. Absolutely loved that, as well as the stuff in the lift with Obi-wan and Anakin.

*”Chancellor Palpatine, Sith Lords are our specialty.” – Oh dear. Obi-Wan seemed to be in danger of becoming too self-assured. The last time he had believed that he and Anakin could take out Dooku, Yoda ended up saving them.
Disagree. The delivery of that line was tinged with humor. He wasn't being deadly serious or arrogant. It's possible he believed it, but the delivery didn't indicate arrogance.

And in AOTC, I don't think Obi-wan thought they could easily take down Dooku. In fact, he told Anakin that they would need to work together to beat him. And of course, Anakin didn't listen.

*Anakin tells Dooku that he has become twice as powerful, since their last encounter on Geonosis. How is it that despite the loss of an arm, his connection to the Force has strengthened? Makes me wonder if Lucas’ comment that Anakin’s loss of limbs on Mustafar had weakened his connection to the Force is a lot of bull.
No, I don't think so. Anakin's MC count is so high, I think even with losing part of one arm, he still has more than any other. Losing multiple limbs, though, as he did later...I can see that changing things.

*Anakin and Obi-Wan’s pride and aggression nearly cost them in their second duel against Dooku. Only Dooku’s own pride and arrogance saved them in the long run.
I didn't get that impression. Tyranus is, quite simply, an impressive warrior.

*I also noticed that unlike Obi-Wan and Dooku, Anakin’s lightsaber skills do not seem as flashy as theirs. His style seemed to be similar to Qui-Gon and Mace – very direct and with very little complicated moves.
I'm not sure I'd say that. He was particularly impressive in his fight against Obi-wan with the all the twisting, turning, rotating, and behind the back stuff. I wouldn't have necessarily described either Kenobi or Vader's style as flashy, but in the Mustafar fight, they were pretty near equal in terms of how visually impressive their lightsaber handling was.

*Has Obi-Wan become a little too cocky about his skills? He had chopped off the head of a Magna guard and walked away . . . only to be surprised to learn that it could still fight.
I think he was just trying to proceed as efficiently as possible. Get through the Magna's as quick as possible and get to the real goal, Grievous.


*This is rare – Leia’s future father and stepfather actually have a scene together.
Didn't think about that. That is cool.

*The scene between Anakin and Yoda struck me as being rather cold. I wonder if this had been the first time Anakin had sought the counsel of the Jedi Master.
I don't know if it was cold. Formal is probably closer to the truth. I doubt Anakin went to him often, since Palpatine was more of a mentor to him.

And Yoda's advice was pretty much exactly what he told Luke in ESB. Apparently the wise old master didn't learn much from his experiences with Anakin.

*I am curious as to why Obi-Wan had never exerted more effort to discourage Anakin’s friendship with Palpatine.
I don't think Palpatine made that friendship overt until closer to the events of ROTS when he wanted the Jedi to notice it so he could strain the trust between the Council and Anakin. And of course by that point, Obi-wan clearly was not happy with the friendship, but the Council wanted to exploit it.

*I find it interesting that Anakin seemed more disturbed by the Jedi Council’s suggestion that he spy upon Palpatine than he was by the latter’s suggestion that he does the same with the Jedi Council. Especially after he had insisted that Anakin join the Council.
True. And interesting. I think the difference stems from the way the orders came. Palpatine worded things more delicately, whereas Obi-wan made it pretty clear the Council outright distrusted Palpatine and wanted him to specifically report on "all the Chancellor's dealings."

Why would Obi-Wan assume that Anakin had used his friendship with Palpatine to become a member of the Jedi Council?
Obi-wan made the statemen, "it's what you wanted" and Anakin never denies it. He did want it. Obi-wan's point was just the awkwardness of the situation and how it appeared: that Anakin was getting favors. And it did look bad. Regardless of whether Anakin asked for it or not, his friendship with Palpatine had payed off and people would look at it that way.

Why would he accuse Anakin of harboring ambitions to become a Council member, when he had admonished Qui-Gon, years earlier, for failing to reach such an achievement? What a curious man.
Because there's a big difference between not accepting something you've been offered and strongly desiring something you haven't been offered. Obi-wan felt Qui-gon deserved the Council seat and could make an impact. If things had gone differently in ROTS and Anakin had been offered a Council position later and not taken it, I'm sure Obi-wan would have reacted similarly to how he did with Qui-gon.

*If Obi-Wan was against Anakin spying on Palpatine, why did he insist that the young Knight accept the assignment in the first place? And why didn’t Anakin act on his feelings and refuse the assignment? I believe this scene is a clear case of Obi-Wan failing Anakin . . . and Anakin failing himself.
I don't think so. I see it more a case of Palpatine having put them in a no-win situation. Obi-wan didn't trust Palpatine (rightly so) and did trust the Jedi. That's why he supported it. Anakin didn't refuse the assignment, but he also didn't exactly jump wholeheartedly into it. In part, in "searching his feelings" he may have found some feeling that Obi-wan may have been right (about Palpatine not being completely trustworthy or the situation with him not being right).

*Why was the Jedi Council so determined to refrain Anakin from going to Utaapau? Was their decision a reaction to the revelation that Palpatine had suggested that Anakin take part in that military operation?
Absolutely. They weren't going to allow Palpatine to dictate their actions at all (and Palpatine knew this would be the case).

[Fish1941]

Obi-wan made the statemen, "it's what you wanted" and Anakin never denies it. He did want it. Obi-wan's point was just the awkwardness of the situation and how it appeared: that Anakin was getting favors. And it did look bad. Regardless of whether Anakin asked for it or not, his friendship with Palpatine had payed off and people would look at it that way.

So what if Anakin wanted to become a member of the Council? I'm certain that many Jedi Knights must have harbored the same ambitions. For all we know, Obi-Wan may have harbored similar feelings. It's not a crime. Anakin seemed surprised that it happened so soon.

In the end, I found Obi-Wan's attitude hypocritical. He criticized Anakin for harboring ambitions to become a member of the Council. He's already a member of the Council, himself. And he used to criticized Qui-Gon for failing to become a Council member, due to the latter's tendency not to abide by the Jedi Order.


I don't think so. I see it more a case of Palpatine having put them in a no-win situation. Obi-wan didn't trust Palpatine (rightly so) and did trust the Jedi. That's why he supported it.

I disagree. It doesn't matter whether the Jedi Council distrusted Palpatine or not. And they were not in a position in which it was imperative that Anakin spy upon the Chancellor. Having Anakin act as a spy was a bad idea. Both Obi-Wan and Anakin believed it was. Yet, Obi-Wan had insisted upon Anakin accepting the assignment. And Anakin did accept it . . . despite their misgivings. Both men had failed themselves, as far as I'm concerned. And Obi-Wan had failed Anakin.

[borgmatrix]

So what if Anakin wanted to become a member of the Council? I'm certain that many Jedi Knights must have harbored the same ambitions. For all we know, Obi-Wan may have harbored similar feelings. It's not a crime.
I never said it was a crime. My point was that Obi-wan didn't necessarily believe that Anakin had asked Palpatine for a Council, but was noting to Anakin how bad it looked. They both knew Anakin wanted the Council seat. Nothing wrong with that. It's the circumstance by which Anakin did get it.

In the end, I found Obi-Wan's attitude hypocritical. He criticized Anakin for harboring ambitions to become a member of the Council.
That's not how it was. He made it clear that he felt Anakin would one day be on the Council and would be deserving of it. Kenobi's problem wasn't that Anakin was on the Council or that Anakin wanted it, but how it happened: through Palpatine. It looks bad. In the past, it was the Jedi themselves that named Council members, and that's how Kenobi felt it should be here.

Having Anakin act as a spy was a bad idea. Both Obi-Wan and Anakin believed it was.
I never said it was a good idea. Or that Obi-wan felt it was. I said he trusts the Jedi and since this order was coming from the others, he was willing to put aside his misgivings and pass on the order. He would justify it with his distrust of Palpatine, but that doesn't mean, and I never meant to suggest, that he was comfortable with it.

Yet, Obi-Wan had insisted upon Anakin accepting the assignment. And Anakin did accept it . . . despite their misgivings. Both men had failed themselves, as far as I'm concerned. And Obi-Wan had failed Anakin.
Anakin's a thoroughly confused individual by this point who is in a mess of a situation. He doesn't know which side is right. That doesn't mean he's failed himself. He didn't handle it perfectly. I don't know who could in his situation.

With Obi-wan, perhaps it could be said that he failed himself. But we know that Palpatine is the bad guy, so ultimately I find a hard time seeing the Jedi as being in the wrong. The real problem is that it was far too late. Palpatine had already won as of the end of AOTC. The Jedi, no matter what they did, were screwed. It's a testament to how well Palpatine has played things moreso than to Obi-wan failing Anakin.

[lovelucas]

wonderful discourse...
enjoying these observations and conversation. Repartee at its best.

[Emalin]

Indeed, lovelucas. Indeed. :bigsmile:

My small contribution: because of Anakin's betrayal, Mace is electrocuted by Palpatine, then thrown out the window to the city below...all while Anakin is standing by. This scene parallels the dramatic moment in RotJ when Anakin is watching the Emperor electrocute his son. Can you imagine what must be running through Anakin's mind?

*shivers* It's continuity like that that makes me love RotS!

:bye:

[Cydon]

Never thought of that. Good point.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I had also never thought of that, an excellent observation.

It has got me thinking that part of the reason that Vader destroyed the emperor (other than his love for his son) was the memory of what he had seen before. He remembered how he felt when he effectively killed Mace and after when he realised that he had made the wrong decision and as thoughts raced through his mind as the lighning lit up the room, he decided he wasn't going to make a mistake again.

Maybe I'm a chump for not thinking about it before, but it does seem that the more you delve into the movies the more you find out, which is just another reason for loving the films. Although there are plenty of annoying continuency issues, it remains the most fantastic series of films. Me happy. :bigsmile:

[Emalin]

I had also never thought of that, an excellent observation.

It has got me thinking that part of the reason that Vader destroyed the emperor (other than his love for his son) was the memory of what he had seen before. He remembered how he felt when he effectively killed Mace and after when he realised that he had made the wrong decision and as thoughts raced through his mind as the lighning lit up the room, he decided he wasn't going to make a mistake again.


Thank you, JMH. And yes, that is exactly what I had thought as well! I get excited just thinking about it. It's one of the reasons I love RotS...the new insights it offers make me see deeper into the old trilogy. (Call me a sucker for melodrama. :lol: )

I think there were other parallels I saw in RotS, but I can't remember them. If I watch the movies again and see them, I'll post them here. (Not that I want to hijack Fish1941's thread...:viking: )

:bye:

[borgmatrix]

It has got me thinking that part of the reason that Vader destroyed the emperor (other than his love for his son) was the memory of what he had seen before. He remembered how he felt when he effectively killed Mace and after when he realised that he had made the wrong decision and as thoughts raced through his mind as the lighning lit up the room, he decided he wasn't going to make a mistake again.
That could be. But really, Anakin's decision to aid Luke was consistent with past behavior. After he had killed Dooku at the beginning of ROTS, he instantly regretted it, since Dooku was unarmed and helpless. Later, in the Chancellor's office, it was Palpatine who appeared helpless. Having regretted earlier killing an unarmed Sith Lord, he wasn't going to allow Mace to make the same mistake, saying "It's not the Jedi way."

And of course, years later in ROTJ, he once again finds a helpless individual (Luke) about to be killed, and acts in his favor.

For all his faults, there did seem to be an inherent decency in him.

It's also interesting that in both scenes, Anakin betrays the side he's supposed to be on. In ROTS, rather than helping a fellow jedi, he aided the Sith. In ROTJ, rather then helping a fellow sith, he aided a jedi.

Yeah, it's all fascinating stuff.

I think there were other parallels I saw in RotS, but I can't remember them.
One that's often named that I quite like is Skywalker battling Tyranus while Palpatine looks on, mirroring the Skywalker vs Vader battle with Palpatine watching years later in ROTJ. Both marked Sidious' attempt to turn a Skywalker by setting him against his apprentice.

[Emalin]

It's also interesting that in both scenes, Anakin betrays the side he's supposed to be on. In ROTS, rather than helping a fellow jedi, he aided the Sith. In ROTJ, rather then helping a fellow sith, he aided a jedi.

Ah, I hadn't realized that before. Now the parallel is extended -- yay! :lol:

One that's often named that I quite like is Skywalker battling Tyranus while Palpatine looks on, mirroring the Skywalker vs Vader battle with Palpatine watching years later in ROTJ. Both marked Sidious' attempt to turn a Skywalker by setting him against his apprentice.

Again, I hadn't realized that. :D This is awesome! I really enjoy finding these parallels. They help me see how the story works...and there's nothing more fun (to me) than exploring the different aspects of a much-loved story.

There were other parallels, though, that I saw. I just know it; it's an itch in the back of my mind. I need to watch RotS and the old trilogy again!

Thanks for pointing these things out, borgmatrix. :superhappy:

[Tovor]

There is something else to realize, as far as what may have been going through Vader's mind while Luke was being electrocuted.

AOTC:
"I'm sorry I couldn't save you, mom; I'm sorry I wasn't strong enough. But I promise, I won't fail like that again"
AOTC:
Padme falls from the gunship. Anakin: "I can't leave her!"
ROTS:
To Padme: "I won't lose you like I lost my mother."

That is exactly what I think Vader remembers, as Sidious electrocutes Luke. I believe that it is his promise to his mother, and his failed promise to Padme, that plays a large part, beyond Luke's goodness and his love for Luke, in spurring him to rise up against Sidious.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Spot on, buy that man a beer! :cheers:

[Tovor]

Spot on, buy that man a beer! :cheers:
Thank ye, mate.

[silverbolt]

the blue skinned alien you mentioned is che eekway the twi'lek senator i believe whether she is lucas daughter or not i dont know

[RollaFett]

You are correct, sir!

I noticed a lot of talk of parallels in this thread and thought I might point out my own thread about a ROTS/TPM parallel.
http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=10252

[silverbolt]

was gonna make a thread concerning this but thought id add it here instead.

if you watch the scene with palpatine and the four jedi kook closely at kit fisto before he dies, he seems bumbling not sure where to put himself alsmot as if the actor in the fisto suit cant see exactly whats happening and where hes supposed to be. even his lightsaber movements are jerky

also did anakin mean to strike off windus hand, he didnt actively try to kill windu he wanted to stop him killing palpatine, he seemed to feel much guilt after it

[huttslime]

This is a long list so I want to start with this:

*The Chancellor’s seat on Grievous’ ship strongly reminds me of his throne in ROTJ.


I was wondering about that, how come a prisoner sits in a chair that looks like a command chair and not in a more prisoner suited chair or environment.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I was wondering about that, how come a prisoner sits in a chair that looks like a command chair and not in a more prisoner suited chair or environment.

The only reason that Palpatine was sat in the command chair was that the whole affair was a trap set for the Jedi. He was sat exactly where he wanted to, in order for the Jedi to rescue him and kill Dooku and so his plans to rule the galaxy could carry on from that stage.

[DblDwn]

Quite right

[lovelucas]

regarding the decapuhanding of Mace - Anakin did not arrive with the intention of killing Mace or even wounding him - he came there to ensure that Palpatine would not be killed so that
#1 - he would stand trial (and Anakin does state this to Mace)
#2 - and that by living, Palpatine will be able to deliver his promise - "only through me......will you discover the secret of saving Padme"

If only Mace hadn't stepped so close to the dark side himself....if only he could have trusted what Anakin told him.....if only he hadn't been so intent on preserving his beloved Republic ...talk about clouded vision.

[RollaFett]

Hmmm...I see what you mean about stepping close to the dark side. Obviously, you're referring to the fact that Mace wanted to kill Palpatine and that that was not a Jedi trait. Being arrested and standing trial was the right thing to do. But how could Mace ever think that Palpatine would've gone peacefully? Besides, how do you contain someone as powerful as Palpatine to begin with? As Mace himself said, "He's too dangerous to left alive!"

[silverbolt]

Hmmm...I see what you mean about stepping close to the dark side. Obviously, you're referring to the fact that Mace wanted to kill Palpatine and that that was not a Jedi trait. Being arrested and standing trial was the right thing to do. But how could Mace ever think that Palpatine would've gone peacefully? Besides, how do you contain someone as powerful as Palpatine to begin with? As Mace himself said, "He's too dangerous to left alive!"

Which is probably why Mace tried to kill him a Sith lord n control of the senate is something the jedi could not even contemplate

[Fish1941]

Why do many people make a big deal of Mace trying to kill Palpatine, but completely ignore the fact that Yoda tried to do the same, later in the movie?

[James]

Some interesting thoughts I had about Palpatine.

He and Padme are at two opposite ends of the continuum - Palps embodies all things evil, she embodies everything good and pure. Just finished watching ROTS, interesting that she agreed to step down as Queen even though the Naboo people wanted her on for longer. Palpatine "reluctantly" agreed to stay on longer, even though his two terms had expired.

As Padme explained to Anakin in a cut scene of AOTC, popular demand is not democracy. It gives the people what they want, not what they need. When Palpatine agreed to stay on even after his two terms had expired democracy was indeed dead in the republic. (interesting that Padme and Palpatine both had two terms, starting around the same time, and lasting four years each - until Palps got his extended.)

Just some thoughts.

[silverbolt]

Why do many people make a big deal of Mace trying to kill Palpatine, but completely ignore the fact that Yoda tried to do the same, later in the movie?

because by the time Yoda tried it Palpatine had activated order 66 and had killed many of the jedi and had set himself up at the emperor

[darth bangkok]

The most ridiculous part of the movie for me, from the first time I watched it, was that they were going to "arrest" Palpatine. Come on, arrest a Sith? I don't think Jedi (and therefore Sith) affairs were ever settled in civilian courts. If someone thought a Jedi overstepped his or her authority, could someone bring that Jedi up on charges? Did Jedi have to testify in court?? I think that they are some how above or outside the law. They operate in another universe so to speak. And by extension, the Jedi would deal with the Sith outside the system and according to their own rules. That is NOT in a court. So it was just plain stupid if you ask me. Come on! The Sith is going to sit in a cell in solitary confinement and be like "oooh, I can't get out". At the very least he is going to be spreading havic accross the galaxy from within the cell.

[James]

Something had to be done urgently. Of course when Mace said "arrest the Chancellor" he meant "kill the Chancellor". The Jedi were going to take control of the Senate temporarily if they had succeeded and Palpatine was killed.

[Fish1941]

Something had to be done urgently. Of course when Mace said "arrest the Chancellor" he meant "kill the Chancellor". The Jedi were going to take control of the Senate temporarily if they had succeeded and Palpatine was killed.


No, Mace meant to arrest Palpatine. Sith or not, Palpatine was the chancellor of the Republic. He and the three Jedi who had accompanied him could not simply kill the man without answering to the Senate. If the Jedi actually believed they could take over the Senate without any trouble, they would have been sadly mistaken. Even Palpatine had to manuever the Republic into giving him power. He could not simply take it . . . Sith Lord or not.

As for Mace, he tried to get Palpatine to submit to the arrest at least two or three times, until he changed his mind after Palpatine tried to kill him with Force lightning.

[lovelucas]

That is NOT in a court.

But this is the Republic. There is a Senate. It may not function the way it should (neither does ours) but the foundation is there. The Jedi couldn't see it was crumbling with a little help from the Sith and corruption in general but they were still trying to play by the rules. However, it was Yoda who cautioned about the dark place they were heading to if they took over the Senate, however briefly, "to provide a peaceful transition"

[lovelucas]

after the marathon at C4 RotS reappears in frontal lobe -
*I find it interesting that Anakin seemed more disturbed by the Jedi Council’s suggestion that he spy upon Palpatine than he was by the latter’s suggestion that he does the same with the Jedi Council. Especially after he had insisted that Anakin join the Council.

Actually I don't think Palpatine says he wants Anakin to spy on the Council - Obi Wan, when requesting the reversal is quite explicit that the Council wants Anakin to keep an eye on Palpatine and Anakin restates exactly what they're asking - "You want me to spy on him". When Palpatine pushes Anakin on the Council, Anakin initially is flattered but then states the reality that the Council chooses their members. Palps comments that he wants Anakin to be the eyes, ears and voice (I confess - I almost hear a physician's speciality here) of the Republic he coyly and effectively muddies the waters by implying this action is for the greater good of all. Damn weasel! How I wish I could go to Cel Eur and see the man in person.

*Of course, Anakin’s reaction to the decision did seem very immature, as indicated by Mace’s order that he take a seat. But after Anakin had apologized for his outburst, Obi-Wan shook his head in silent disapproval of his former padawan.

of course, of course. Anakin still has major issues and has always wanted the acceptance and recognition by the Council that he's been denied since he was 9. He feels like the b*a*s*t*ard child, ya know? and no matter what the heroics - and he did just save Palpatine, Obi Wan etc landing the Invisible Hand - he's never deemed worthy. So he keeps seeking that recognition and worthiness from Palaptine. and the Council plays right into that.

[Ant]

Great list - a good read :)

But........
There’s still good in him.” – If only Obi-Wan had heeded Padme’s words. But . . . he thought that Anakin was dead. On the other hand, the infant Luke did listen. This was perhaps, Padme’s greatest contribution.

That really is a load of Bull hahaha. Luke didnt hear what she said. Do you remember the first your mother said to you?

[RollaFett]

^ Hmmm...yeah. That really doesn't make any sense. OB1 couldn't have listened to Padme at that point. Like Ant says, he presumed him dead, and even if he didn't, what could he possibly have done? Plus, when he finally does confront him again, he holds no such reservations about his all-encompassing evil. "Only a Master of evil, Darth".
And as far as Luke goes, well, there simply is no way he remembered those words. Remember ROTJ? He says that he has no memory of his mother.

[lovelucas]

Luke didnt hear what she said. Do you remember the first your mother said to you?

No, but then I'm not a Jedi

[RollaFett]

^ C'mon now. You don't honestly believe that GL wrote that scene with the intention of tying it in so LUke remembered what she said, do you?

[lovelucas]

chain yankage :)
just a pithy response noting there is a different criterion if you're a Jedi

[RollaFett]

Consider said chain yanked successfully.

[lovelucas]

somehow that takes on an entirely different meaning coming from you....

[Fish1941]

^ C'mon now. You don't honestly believe that GL wrote that scene with the intention of tying it in so LUke remembered what she said, do you?


I think that fans are entitled to believe what they want.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I think that fans are entitled to believe what they want.

While I agree with that to some extent, they should also believe the truth above mere speculation. And ultimately, that truth can often only come from GL himself.

[lovelucas]

^^oh, I agree 100% but the rascal won't say....George enjoys keeping us in the dark and the arguing that ensues.

[borgmatrix]

^^oh, I agree 100% but the rascal won't say....George enjoys keeping us in the dark and the arguing that ensues.
George may very well be in the dark with some of this stuff as well. His vision of Star Wars has changed so much from what he initially had in mind in the late 70s to what we have now with the saga complete that its amazing the story holds together as well as it does. I wouldn't be surprised if even he didn't have a full sense of what some details might mean.

[RollaFett]

its amazing the story holds together as well as it does.

By "story", do you mean the storyline of the films, or GL's story of how the storyline came about?
If it's the latter, I disagree. I don't think his version of events holds up very well at all. I will concede that GL never intended to be sneaky and purposely deceiptful. Just that, over time, it became cooler to him to chalk it up to some grand design when it became apparent where the saga was headed, rather than natural story telling evolution.

[lovelucas]

Rolla - must every thread result in your same response? Not bashing etc - it's just that no matter what we're discussing somehow it always comes back to the same thing - you saying that George is lying.

[borgmatrix]

By "story", do you mean the storyline of the films, or GL's story of how the storyline came about?
If it's the latter, I disagree. I don't think his version of events holds up very well at all. I will concede that GL never intended to be sneaky and purposely deceiptful. Just that, over time, it became cooler to him to chalk it up to some grand design when it became apparent where the saga was headed, rather than natural story telling evolution.
No, I meant the storyline of the films. Given that he's slowly changed direction as the movies have progressed, it's quite amazing that it all comes across as cohesive as it does.

But as to "GL's story" of how he created SW and his original intent, yeah, you're right. The impression one gets from recent Lucas interviews differs from that of interviews he gave during the 70s and early 80s. He clearly had a very different plan before ANH and it drastically changed during the writing and filming of ESB.

[RollaFett]

Rolla - must every thread result in your same response? Not bashing etc - it's just that no matter what we're discussing somehow it always comes back to the same thing - you saying that George is lying.

Ok, three things: One, I recently finished that ebook, "The Secret History of Star Wars" and when historic aspects of the SW saga are discussed, I consider that book to be an excellent reference source. Not definitive, but damned good.
Two, please point out when I have said that George is lying, because I sure can't recall saying that. In fact, I have agreed with many others who have read that book in regards to the lying accusations as being over the top. I do believe that Lucas has changed his story so many times over the years and that even he probably has some trouble remembering how it all went down with certain points. Other points, however, are clearly things he has recently claimed to have existed all along, when the exisitng evidence overwhelmingly contrdicts him. Is he being a malicious lier? I don't believe so, and have said that often.
Three, you're just plain wrong, or ignoring all of my other SW related posts where I don't discuss any of the above. Like stated previously, when the history of the saga is brought up, I feel obligated to discuss some of the inconsistencies that have become painfully obvious over the years.
In the end, I'm a Star Wars fan. Criticizing, and questioning aspects of it shouldn't and, in fact doesn't, make me any less of a fan, period.


No, I meant the storyline of the films. Given that he's slowly changed direction as the movies have progressed, it's quite amazing that it all comes across as cohesive as it does.

But as to "GL's story" of how he created SW and his original intent, yeah, you're right. The impression one gets from recent Lucas interviews differs from that of interviews he gave during the 70s and early 80s. He clearly had a very different plan before ANH and it drastically changed during the writing and filming of ESB.

Ahh...right. It is quite amazing how smooth the saga flows considering how crazily the story actually developed. But let's not talk about that. I wouldn't want to upset lovelucas. :wink:

[Fish1941]

His vision of Star Wars has changed so much from what he initially had in mind in the late 70s to what we have now with the saga complete that its amazing the story holds together as well as it does.


I see nothing amazing about it. I like ANH very much. It's a lot of fun. But looking back on it, there are times that I find it a little too simplistic for my tastes. I can especially say that about the characters.

Lucas took a simple, space-aged fairy tale with characters that are obviously good and evil and turned it into a complex and morally ambiguous saga with characters that are shaded in gray. In an odd way, that moral ambiguity seems to reflect our world - especially in the Prequel Trilogy. And I get this feeling from the criticisms of how the Jedi and Anakin are portrayed that many fans find this disturbing and hard to accept.

[lovelucas]

ok Rolla - mea culpa regarding interpreting that statement as 100% of your posts or calling George a total liar - but the implication is there from you although never did I say that you said "malicious".

But do sort through your posts - you do site this ebook time and again whether it has relevancy to the subject or not. It's almost as if you're the author's agent.

But also, yes, you do at times defend George and HIS story - while I do seem to have difficulty acknowledging that either have faults.

Well, if they do, theyre minor. IMO

[RollaFett]

Well, thinking back, you're probably right. I have mentioned the book more than necessary, so you got me there. The fact that it took me an eternity to read probably didn't help, because it was always fresh in my mind.

Anyway, in regards to calling Lucas a liar, I still take issue with that. I have gone out of my way to point out how I didn't agree with the lying statements that the book made. I do, however, agree that Lucas has changed his story dramatically over the years.

But, I digress. How about some basic and fun SW discussion for a change, eh?

[borgmatrix]

I see nothing amazing about it. I like ANH very much. It's a lot of fun. But looking back on it, there are times that I find it a little too simplistic for my tastes. I can especially say that about the characters.
I've said before in many threads, I prefer the PT and find it to be more complex than the OT. But that's not what I'm talking about here. Lucas had one vision of what the Star Wars saga was going to be when working on ANH. During work on ESB that changed and continued to after the film was done.

So given that, yes, from a writing perspective, it is quite amazing that it all comes together as cohesively as it seems too. Obviously, there are details that don't quite make sense between the OT and PT. That results from shifting from the original plan. But overall, and overlooking some of those details, the 6-part saga makes for quite a beautiful (and seemingly natural) whole, despite stemming from a movie that was supposed to the first of more than 6 movies that weren't going to be nearly as interconnected (and certainly not about the life of Darth Vader).