Romance in AOTC...Good or Worse than the OT? [Archive]

Winston_Sith

05-23-2002, 05:32 AM

:::Attraction I can understand, the puppy thing I can see too, and that's all it appears to be. *And tell me what did Amidala see in Ani?

Well, he did care for his Mother, Shmi, and would have done anything to protect her; even if it meant possibly being expelled from the Jedi Order and destroying his greatest childhood dream (after all, rushing off to Tatooine violated his mandate to protect Padme). Presumably he would have done the same for Padme as well; as can be seen in Anakin's argument with Obi-wan in the gunship, but she managed to find a convenient loophole before their journey to Geonisis, so it wasn't that big of a deal.

:::But she didn't seem to take some things seriously. He was rude to her. *

HE was rude to HER? What about the condescending "Don't mind him, he's just a Padawan..." thing she pulled in the throne room? I mean, HOW WUUD! What does HE see in HER? Besides the obvious stuff, I mean... *:smile:

:::She had been uncomfortable with him before.

Of course she was "uncomfortable", she was conflicted by the old "love vs. duty" thing, and could not allow herself to admit her true feelings.

:::Was his killing Tusken men, women, and children just some sort of "phase" to her? *

No. It was his reaction to losing the one person in the universe who he truly loved, who truly loved him in return. And besides, Padme saw his remorse for his actions and that show of humanity endeared him to her, I think; or else it made her want to "mother" him.

:::Was his ideas about a dictatorship just no big deal?

It WAS no big deal, at the time; he's wasn't Vader yet.

:::and exactly how well does Ani know Amidala? *

Not very well. She's Probably just a decade old image, a specter of long ago in Anakin's mind; the Jedi would obviously, and rightly call it an "attachment".

:::I'm all for marriage but it looked like they just married because life is short. *

That may be. But that doesn't have to mean that it is wrong for the storyline. I mean, a romance as ill-conceived and reckless as Anakin and Padme's is easy pray to corruption by a certain Dark Side Master currently masquerading as the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic.

:::I'm sure their relationship would have matured to real love but this was rushed.

If it did mature to real love, there may never have BEEN a Darth Vader; is that what you want?

It's OK to say "yes", by the way. LOL

:::And Han did have some qualities going for him, he wasn't merely cute and a scoundrel type, he had in fact worked with Leia for I think three years before ESB committed to the Rebel Alliance.

But then, without Anakin, Padme would STILL be marooned on Tatooine...

:::The good thing about the AotC romance was that we didn't have to see too much. *

Me too.

:::I just wish we got some indication that it wasn't as fast as it appeared to be.

Well, the way of the Dark Side is easier, quicker and more seductive than the way is SHOULD have gone.

Meche

05-23-2002, 12:20 PM

Justin: What is chemistry, anyway? *Is it so subjective that you say one and Teta says the opposite? *Can anyone explain this to me?

Winston_Sith: You're probably confused about why I'm saying the stuff I'm saying. *Is that the case? *I'm saying these things only to show that the love thing didn't seem real to me, and that it seemed rushed, perhaps out of character. *I'm NOT saying that the love plot should be cut out. *That said, I'll move on.

Okay... yeah, he cared for his mother, but that whole deal didn't come till later. *I don't think he mentioned her at all until the morning after their romantic day (but I may be wrong, so let me know), by which time we know Amidala already had feelings. *And it's probably not best to base ones love just on that.

Okay, that "don't mind him, he's just a Padawan". *I don't remember her saying "don't mind him". *I thought that someone, the queen or somebody, referred to Anakin as "Master Jedi", and Amidala corrected her. *Anakin didn't like that, and I don't think it was so much that Amidala was condescending as that Anakin wanted to seem more important. *Hence the "excuse me, I'm in charge of security", which Amidala answers as a case where he still has to accept her judgement in regards to Naboo. *And then he agreed with her. *I should watch this movie again, but I think that's how it happened.

I thought she was "uncomfortable" because Anakin stared at her and she didn't like it. *He did seem rather creepy. *She probably liked how he looked, but she still didn't really know him. *I'm just saying I'd have thought she'd be more careful and not suddenly change her tone in so short a time.

Exactly; his reaction to the death of his loved one was just a phase to her, a phase in dealing with Shmi's death. *Murdering people is not to be taken lightly, no matter how much remorse he shows. *Feeling sorry for him and caring for him afterwards isn't that bad, but fall in love and marry him?

He wasn't Vader at the time he expressed his ideas on dictatorship. *So what? *So a person who isn't evil doesn't need his evil ideas to be taken seriously? *She can just brush it off? *He might show himself to be evil later on, no?

I'm trying to say that Amidala moved from point A to point B too quickly to me. *That's how I see it, it doesn't mean you have to.

Okay, the rest of your argument talks about this stuff being right for the storyline, about there never having been a Vader otherwise, and stuff about the Dark Side. *Not that Amidala is turning to the dark side too... or are you saying she is? *I am NOT arguing against that (though I do say that even mature love can get messed up; no one's infallible, so there still could have been a Vader). *I'm not saying what you imply I'm saying, that it's wrong for the storyline. *Of course the story is necessary! *We all know that Amidala is making some mistakes, errors in judgement, but that she has to marry Anakin in order for them to have the twins. *We know he's going to become Darth Vader. *I'm only saying that this particular storyline isn't believable. *I know that a lot of my argument requires a LOT of foresight for Amidala, but I honestly just think that she seemed way out of character at points. *I had hoped that she seemed much more careful and honest with herself and Anakin than actually appeared. *If the love wasn't so rushed, if we noticed that Amidala was smarter and didn't lose her head simply because she was about to die, well that would improve her case I think. *Teta may refer to it as me picking on the romance, but if Lucas means to portray her as a very intelligent, strong woman, well it's not working for me.

Otherwise I know the love story is necessary. *I know all that. *I'm being quite critical even though I really liked that movie and look forward to seeing how it turns out. *But hey, these are just my thoughts right now. *Hopefully the next installment will explain some things? *Maybe Lucas added that bit about Amidala saying she had not been ready to be queen for a reason? *I think I already mentioned that part.

padmehlc

05-23-2002, 12:54 PM

<span style="color:pink">Well Padmé has shown herself to be impulsive in the past - her decision to go with Qui-Gon on Tatootine - even lying to him to do so; Her I've done all I can here I'm going back to fight act on Crosecant - despite what everyone told her about it; Her sudden revalation of her true self to the Gungans; and we can't forget her - I don't care if I get hurt I'm going after Obi stop me if you dare attitude before going of to Geonisis (please forgive my spelling). While she is whown to be smart she also tends to think with her Heart more than her head at times so I don't find it at all difficult to believe that she would be that hasty in the matter considering her past stubbornness and hastiness - kind of like her daughter.</span>

vertstream

05-23-2002, 12:59 PM

I really don't c any point in discussing there romance!!

but I do think we should discuss how the hell Padme dies..
..does any 1 know?

u may think i am foolish because i am a new member but I think i speak for all true fans when i ask How The Hell does she die??

Teek

05-23-2002, 01:20 PM

Vertstream, if you wish to discuss that, perhaps you should create a new topic on it in the Ep. III Fan Speculation forum?

Teta

05-23-2002, 07:39 PM

Personally, I think Palpy fries her to a crisp with Force lightning while Anakin is imprisoned and forced to watch, (b/c if HE kills her GL knows there is NO WAY the audience would ever feel a shred of anything for Vader when he kills the Emperor. Palpy is suppsed to be the REAL villain here, and Anakin a Greek tragedy figure. This death would also parallel ROTJ, the "opera" tone of the series, when Anakin as Vader didn't stand by.) This opens up the question as to how much of Anakin serving the Emperor is a twisted relationship built on fear, how much on lust for power, and how much he may stay with Palpy b/c it is a lust for pwer PLUS some twisted desire to overthrow Paply himself and murder him as revenge...in which case Luke is more important than we thought...But that's for the speculation thread...

You all make some great points. And let me stress: some of you are right, I said "teenagers" yesterday when I KNEW Amidal was 24, etc, but I hoped no-one would nitpick on it. I was speaking more in terms of romatic experience. We don't know how much Amidala is sexually experienced, or how many crushes she may have squashed after poor Paolo. In the novel, her sister says this is the first time she's ever brought a boyfriend home, but that doesn't mean that she may not have found time to have some flings. In her case, it would be impossible not to think so. As for Anakin, for someone who's supposedly a virgin (I think no matter what anyone says, the way Lucas wrote it, they both were, no matter how implausible this might seem with regards to her, it doesn't seem possible if you look at today's world; but then we don't soend all of our lives running around escaping assassination attempts and probably sleeping in a different spot every night; and Lucas for all his divorce etc still beleives in this sort of balderdash, which isn't a bad thing; and besdies, he's like Walt Disney; this is supposed to be good clean morals. SW characters--at least on film--don't have squalid affairs etc. At least not in the films, though the EU is different:). --For Anakin, for someone who's a virgin, (as I think Lucas intended him to be) he sure seems to have all the moves down pat. Nothing shy at all. I can't decide if this is just him paracticing a routine that he's tried in dark corners with other girls in the rare times when he hasn't been with Obi-wan (whichisn't pretty damned likely since Obi-wan is worse than the worst parent. God, that would be One reason to hate being a Padawan) or if this is just some sort of routine that he's practiced over and over in his mind and he's desperate b/c he knows this will be the only chance he'll ever have.

(The security camera thing adds a bit of menace though. The whole "Big Brother" analogy is great, and there is a moral conflict--I'm sure Anakin doesn't care that being a Peeping Tom goes against Jedi morals. Heck, I know I wouldn't, if I had the job of watching Liam Neeson on a security camera! Hehe. I'm surprised no-one has written about this. And imagining Anakin watching EVERYTHING that goes on in that room is frankly an erotic image.)

But what you guys are talking about. First, as to why Amidala would fall for Anakin in the first place: OK, I do agree with you that the story is too rushed. Frankly, I don't think it is perfect. I'll be the first to admit that. Far toomuch happens too fast, and they don't have enough time to get to know one another. I really do think it isn't just love with him; he is obsessed, and it is just another facet of his complex character. He doesn't just love her; he wants to totally possess her. As forher, I don't think she really cares at first. He gets her hormones going, (as hopefully should happen) but the only reason I can think of why she'd fall for him is her reaction to seeing how his mother's death affected him. Guys, you have to understand what I call the "little lost sheep" factor here. This is something that doesn't just happen to "losers" or women with low self-esteem (as many think.) She feels motherly and protective towards him, and has to fight to keep herself from giving in to the desire to comfort and protect him in a way too. It may have been more convincing if we had known more about her, and her personality; she is mart and tough and independent, but she is snagged by his vulnerabiltiy. GL is asking us to bleieve that someone who is supposedly so independent and wise in the ways of the world can allow themselves to fall so easily. He's asking us to assume that she is mature in all aspects except with regards to her romantic experience, and that she could act differently in regards to this than the rest of her character. B/c we know so little about her, for many, it does not work. We're supposed to beleive this could work b/c nakin is her first serious crush. It may havw wroked better for many if she had mentioned a relationship of two at an older age than 12...I myself can understand it completely, but that is becaus ei have been through similar situations (desiring to comfort the little lost soul I mean).

Yes, they do throw some sparks around, but again, things go too fast. Compared to Han and Leia, it may not work for many; but we know that Han and Leia have known each other for years off camera between Ep 4 and 5. These tow have only persoanlly seen each other for a few days...

Winston_Sith

05-24-2002, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by Teta@May 23 2002 - 18:39

Here's something that came into my mind last night after I posted that big long post where I mentioned the thing about how the romance was just waiting for Sidious to step in and corrupt it; what if, as they were married *in secret*, Sidious hasn't got clue one about their relationship? Yoda probably does, I think, at least about the relationship, maybe not the marriage, because in the Ep. II script, it says he senses it when Padme falls off the gunship, and he was probably aware of Anakins' feelings during the resulting argument with Obi-wan, because he could feel Anakin's pain on Tatooine, right. But Sidious is a long way away at this point, and maybe he doesn't sense any of it, except for maybe the anger, and the hate and the frustration of just being Anakin Skywalker.

Then, what if, at some point, Anakin's mandate to protect Padme is revoked because there is no more threat, and they go their separate ways... again? Would Anakin Know that Padme is pregnant, as we know that she eventually has to be? And if Anakin didn't know, would Sidious? And if Sidious knew about Padme's pregancy, would he know it was Anakin what knocked her up?

I know... this belongs in the Ep. III thread.

Meche

05-24-2002, 07:22 PM

Winston_Sith: it said in the RotJ novelization that Anakin didn't know his wife was pregnant, I think. I have no idea if they're going to stick with that, but it's what I'm assuming for now.

Teta: so by teenagers you didn't really mean teenagers?? Cool!! Sorry, if you'd meant something different then it wasn't clear to me.

However we don't know their romantic experience. I think in one bridge novel Anakin has a first kiss at like 13 or something, personally I don't like it, but it's no biggie. We just don't know the extent of their experience. I didn't even know Palo was in fact Amidala's boyfriend, if he was. I thought she/they had a crush, but decided against doing anything about it when they decided on their respective careers. However, even though you think it's impossible to not think she had time for flings, well... what if I do think it?? Doh, well anyway there's no point in arguing that. You can't tell if someone's a virgin by looking at them or their career or time on their hands, I may be the hottest woman in southern CA with all the time in the world and major hormones going, or I could be as my avatar indicates, doesn't indicate anything. Usually you may be surprised. I don't know if this pair was and I doubt it'll be explained, and I hope it won't be. I prefer to think that they were virgins until their wedding, let everyone else think what they wish, and move on.

Well, assuming Amidala was just sleeping in that room, Anakin or anyone keeping an eye on her isn't too erotic to me. When someone's in danger, usually there's someone's eye on her to protect her. He's watching her sleep, big whoop to me. Nothing else goes on in that room because it's SW. ;)

We all know about that thing where nurses fall for their patients. It's similar with Amidala, she thinks she can help him and it's fascinating and allows her to nurture. Sweet. But it's a poor premise for a marriage.

Lucas is asking us to assume she's wise except in relationships? How do we know that? Well, one would think she'd apply what she knows, if she doesn't have experience in relationships... and from TPM we see she isn't easily trusting. She didn't like Qui-Gon for trusting Anakin... huh. Well, I know some things changed since then. But I'd think she only became a bit smarter... ten years, man. If she's such a genius at fourteen, well...

Bottom line is, for a twenty-four year old who has had even more experience since we last saw her as a strong teenager, I'd expect more. I concede I don't know what Lucas is trying to tell us. But IF he's trying to make us be fully sympathetic to her, complete with her having made an honest mistake despite her having done things right, well then AotC has a mistake. Lucas could improve her case by having made her think about her decision more and not decide she loves and wants to marry Anakin because he gets her hormones going, because they had fun in the meadows, because he had emotional turmoil and she gets to nurture him, and because she realized life is short anyway. Not good reasons, especially when you put them together with the problems with Anakin that she should have seen and taken seriously.

MJADE042385

05-25-2002, 08:38 PM

You can prove me wrong, but i think the romance made an interesting twist. Right now Anakin is driven by his love. If you read the books you know that his mother comes up at the start. If his love for his mother that brought him to Tatooine. His love made him go look for her. If they hadn't cut so much out you will see how Padme feels for Anakin. I don't think they should have gotten married but it did bring me to want to know what happens in the next movie.

James William Alexander Atreides

06-23-2005, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Teta@May 23 2002, 05:39 PM
Personally, I think Palpy fries her to a crisp with Force lightning while Anakin is imprisoned and forced to watch, (b/c if HE kills her GL knows there is NO WAY the audience would ever feel a shred of anything for Vader when he kills the Emperor. Palpy is suppsed to be the REAL villain here, and Anakin a Greek tragedy figure. This death would also parallel ROTJ, the "opera" tone of the series, when Anakin as Vader didn't stand by.) This opens up the question as to how much of Anakin serving the Emperor is a twisted relationship built on fear, how much on lust for power, and how much he may stay with Palpy b/c it is a lust for pwer PLUS some twisted desire to overthrow Paply himself and murder him as revenge...in which case Luke is more important than we thought...But that's for the speculation thread...

You all make some great points. And let me stress: some of you are right, I said "teenagers" yesterday when I KNEW Amidal was 24, etc, but I hoped no-one would nitpick on it. I was speaking more in terms of romatic experience. We don't know how much Amidala is sexually experienced, or how many crushes she may have squashed after poor Paolo. In the novel, her sister says this is the first time she's ever brought a boyfriend home, but that doesn't mean that she may not have found time to have some flings. In her case, it would be impossible not to think so. As for Anakin, for someone who's supposedly a virgin (I think no matter what anyone says, the way Lucas wrote it, they both were, no matter how implausible this might seem with regards to her, it doesn't seem possible if you look at today's world; but then we don't soend all of our lives running around escaping assassination attempts and probably sleeping in a different spot every night; and Lucas for all his divorce etc still beleives in this sort of balderdash, which isn't a bad thing; and besdies, he's like Walt Disney; this is supposed to be good clean morals. SW characters--at least on film--don't have squalid affairs etc. At least not in the films, though the EU is different:). --For Anakin, for someone who's a virgin, (as I think Lucas intended him to be) he sure seems to have all the moves down pat. Nothing shy at all. I can't decide if this is just him paracticing a routine that he's tried in dark corners with other girls in the rare times when he hasn't been with Obi-wan (whichisn't pretty damned likely since Obi-wan is worse than the worst parent. God, that would be One reason to hate being a Padawan) or if this is just some sort of routine that he's practiced over and over in his mind and he's desperate b/c he knows this will be the only chance he'll ever have.

(The security camera thing adds a bit of menace though. The whole "Big Brother" analogy is great, and there is a moral conflict--I'm sure Anakin doesn't care that being a Peeping Tom goes against Jedi morals. Heck, I know I wouldn't, if I had the job of watching Liam Neeson on a security camera! Hehe. I'm surprised no-one has written about this. *And imagining Anakin watching EVERYTHING that goes on in that room is frankly an erotic image.)

But what you guys are talking about. First, as to why Amidala would fall for Anakin in the first place: OK, I do agree with you that the story is too rushed. Frankly, I don't think it is perfect. I'll be the first to admit that. Far toomuch happens too fast, and they don't have enough time to get to know one another. I really do think it isn't just love with him; he is obsessed, and it is just another facet of his complex character. He doesn't just love her; he wants to totally possess her. As forher, I don't think she really cares at first. He gets her hormones going, (as hopefully should happen) but the only reason I can think of why she'd fall for him is her reaction to seeing how his mother's death affected him. Guys, you have to understand what I call the "little lost sheep" factor here. This is something that doesn't just happen to "losers" or women with low self-esteem (as many think.) She feels motherly and protective towards him, and has to fight to keep herself from giving in to the desire to comfort and protect him in a way too. It may have been more convincing if we had known more about her, and her personality; she is mart and tough and independent, but she is snagged by his vulnerabiltiy. GL is asking us to bleieve that someone who is supposedly so independent and wise in the ways of the world can allow themselves to fall so easily. He's asking us to assume that she is mature in all aspects except with regards to her romantic experience, and that she could act differently in regards to this than the rest of her character. B/c we know so little about her, for many, it does not work. *We're supposed to beleive this could work b/c nakin is her first serious crush. It may havw wroked better for many if she had mentioned a relationship of two at an older age than 12...I myself can understand it completely, but that is becaus ei have been through similar situations (desiring to comfort the little lost soul I mean).

Yes, they do throw some sparks around, but again, things go too fast. Compared to Han and Leia, it may not work for many; but we know that Han and Leia have known each other for years off camera between Ep 4 and 5. These tow have only persoanlly seen each other for a few days...
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

That's just cruel and sadistic. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/holosid.gif

GeneralDirection

06-23-2005, 10:27 PM

Here's a quote from Mr Lucas about what he wanted from the AotC romance, from the Making Of AotC book:

"I wanted to write a love story in a style that was extremely old-fashioned, and frankly I didn't know if I was going to pull it off. In many ways this was much more like a movie that from the 1930s than any of the others had been, with a slightly over-the-top, poetic style – and they just don't do that in movies anymore. I was very happy with the way it turned out in the script and in the performances, but I knew people might not buy it. A lot of guys were going to see this movie, and most guys think that kind of flowery, poetic talk is stupid--'Come on, give me a break.' More sophisticated, cynical types also don't buy that stuff. So I didn't know if people would laugh at it and throw things at the screen or they would accept it. Let's face it, their dialogue in that (couch) scene is pretty corny. It is presented very honestly, it isn't tongue-in-cheek at all, and it's really played to the hilt. But it is consistent with the over all Star Wars style. Most people don't understand the style of Star Wars. They don't get that there is an underlying motif that is very much like a 1930s western or Saturday matinee serial. It's in that more romantic period of making movies and adventure films. And this film is even more of a melodrama then the others."

So whether you like the melodramatic dialogue and the formal performances or not, it was an intentional style.

James William Alexander Atreides

06-24-2005, 04:52 AM

The romance was much better. Tragic but emotional. :smooch: :hugs: style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cuddle.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rose.gif

LadySylvia

06-24-2005, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by NelsonCoressel@May 22 2002, 09:22 PM
Whereas Leia and Han are like Beatrice and Benedict, Anakin and Padme are like Romeo and Juliet. *One senario is romantic and humorus, the other earlier episode is romantic but ultimately tragic. *

I was really suprised at how well the romance works in AOTC. I don't think it's either better or worse than the relationship depicted in ESB, it's just different. It's a different part of the story.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

Amen to that! I've caught some of the dialogue between Han and Leia. Frankly, it's no better than some of the dialogue between Anakin and Padme. Just different. I think the critics had expected the Anakin/Padme ship to be a re-hash of the Leia/Han ship . . . and were disappointed that it turned out to be something different. But then most of the criticisms of the PT is that it is NOT the same as the OT.

Darth Octavious

06-25-2005, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by James William Alexander Atreides@Jun 24 2005, 02:52 AM
The romance was much better. Tragic but emotional. :smooch: :hugs: style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cuddle.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rose.gif

I agree

thechosen1

06-25-2005, 01:16 AM

I thought the romance between Anakin and Padme was much better... it seemed muvh more serious than the romance of Leia and Han, also, it made the story of ROTS much more tragic...

Darth Magnus

06-25-2005, 02:16 AM

the unhealthy nature of anakins relationship is a major part of the story, it is a relationship derived from obsession and hormones that it becomes simple for palpatine to manipulate as a method of controlling anakin

James William Alexander Atreides

06-25-2005, 02:36 AM

The way I see it is that since I think Padme is hot, the romance is better. And I was not much of a Leia fan. Also, since Han and Leia finally got together at the end of ROTJ, there wasn't much to see later on. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cuddle.gif

clarkson88

06-25-2005, 08:15 AM

I think there was great potential to make the love story great, but the script did not deliver as effective as in the OT. I still prefer the love between Han and Leia, but I found Hayden and Potman too wooden, but was that their fault or the script writers fault? I HOPE it to be the script writers.

Lord Rocha

06-25-2005, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Justin@May 22 2002, 06:00 PM
I thought the romance in AOTC was just terrible, and painful to watch. Natalie Portman and Hayden Christensen are awful actors and had no chemistry at all, and the dialogue was horrible. Not only that, but I thought Anakin came off a little creepy with the way he came on so strongly. I think the romance could have been toned down a little.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

I totally agree.

The AOTC romance had the quality of that of a Mexican soap opera, another sign that George Lucas can't direct anything that involves "serious romance." Surprisingly enough, Natalie Portman delivers a subpar performance compared to Carrie Fisher's, and lets not forget that Portman was hailed as one of the most capable actresses of her generation. The dialogue was terrible (which is quite typical from the prequels), and the best part of those painful scenes was "Across the Stars."

Raganork8

06-25-2005, 08:36 PM

i think it was the script too.
if you though anankin was creepy then hayden was doing a good job, just had odd things to say. on the opposite side i think natlaie did an ok job, not as well as she could.
The scene with "we can keep it a secret" is good and the music is great too. i think GL just put them in extremely akward situations and places with ewually akward things to say.
I never complain about the love story in the O.T. just indvidual acting.

t3h_ch0s3n_0n3

06-25-2005, 09:25 PM

The romance was cheesy, yes, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Natalie and Hayden are awful actors. I think both of them are fantastic regaurdless.

I'm sure the romance could have been improved, but do we really want the whole romance thing to outshine the other story lines? I think keeping it a little cheesy and low par really allows the audience to see the rest of the plot.

Raganork8

06-25-2005, 09:28 PM

if u need proof Hayden and Natalie are good actors...

"Closer" or "Anywhere but here" for Natalie.
"Purple Haze" or "Life as a house" for hayden

T-bone

06-25-2005, 09:28 PM

It was mostly the dialogue that was bad, not so much the acting. The OT stuff was way better and that's because of one word: Kasdan.

He colored it just right.

GeneralDirection

06-25-2005, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by raganork8@Jun 26 2005, 01:28 AM
if u need proof Hayden and Natalie are good actors...

"Closer" or "Anywhere but here" for Natalie.
"Purple Haze" or "Life as a house" for hayden
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

Hayden was very good in Shattered Glass, also.

I think Hayden and Natalie are both superb actors, but I don't think they have much natural chemistry between them. Having said that, the scenes between Anakin and Padme in RotS were better and felt more genuine. Their first scene together in RotS was quite a shock, actually, as it really felt real to me, with geniune emotion in it.

Raganork8

06-25-2005, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by GeneralDirection+Jun 25 2005, 07:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeneralDirection @ Jun 25 2005, 07:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-raganork8@Jun 26 2005, 01:28 AM
if u need proof Hayden and Natalie are good actors...

"Closer" or "Anywhere but here" for Natalie.
"Purple Haze" or "Life as a house" for hayden
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

Hayden was very good in Shattered Glass, also.

I think Hayden and Natalie are both superb actors, but I don't think they have much natural chemistry between them. Having said that, the scenes between Anakin and Padme in RotS were better and felt more genuine. Their first scene together in RotS was quite a shock, actually, as it really felt real to me, with geniune emotion in it.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]
actually i thought the same thing..their first scene in ROTS is very well done. Naatalie seems scared and he seems proud they do a great job.

Theres a reason why they don't have chemistry... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif ... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif

Lord Rocha

06-26-2005, 01:45 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>It was mostly the dialogue that was bad, not so much the acting. The OT stuff was way better and that's because of one word: Kasdan.

He colored it just right.[/b][/quote]

I guess you are right. I have seen some decent stuff from Portman (Anywhere but here and Where the Heart is), but her performances on the Star Wars Saga were quite dissapointing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Theres a reason why they don't have chemistry... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/inlove.gif ... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]

Oh, I know what you have in mind. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohhlala.gif

Javen

06-26-2005, 11:18 AM

In parts the Leia and Hanromance was just as bad with dialogue too. And people try to point out that Anakin was creepy towards Padme and practically stalked her.

But so did Han. He was always overly aggressive. In one scene he backs her into that little corner like he's gonna rape her until 3PO shows up. So to me they both have their bad moments and both have good moments.

Raganork8

06-26-2005, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Javen@Jun 26 2005, 09:18 AM
In parts the Leia and Hanromance was just as bad with dialogue too. And people try to point out that Anakin was creepy towards Padme and practically stalked her.

But so did Han. He was always overly aggressive. In one scene he backs her into that little corner like he's gonna rape her until 3PO shows up. So to me they both have their bad moments and both have good moments.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

lmao its star wars there are no laws against rape.

Bretsch

06-26-2005, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by T'bone@Jun 25 2005, 07:28 PM
It was mostly the dialogue that was bad, not so much the acting. The OT stuff was way better and that's because of one word: Kasdan.

He colored it just right.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

^You read my mind

The dialog was much better in the OT, while the actors on the PT are much better, they lacked a good dialogue

Raganork8

06-26-2005, 02:34 PM

I also think that the fact that leia was such a character who didn't want to fall for han helped. padme didn't want to either but she more stiff about it more correct and i think that just added a sense of silliness. if this kid is putting this many moves on you you aren't going to wear some dress that nearly has your breast popping out and entertain the idea at all.

leiaorgana

06-26-2005, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by t3h_ch0s3n_0n3@Jun 25 2005, 07:25 PM
The romance was cheesy, yes, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Natalie and Hayden are awful actors. I think both of them are fantastic regaurdless.

I'm sure the romance could have been improved, but do we really want the whole romance thing to outshine the other story lines? I think keeping it a little cheesy and low par really allows the audience to see the rest of the plot.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

Same here.. I think that the problem was the script so If I have to choose Obviously I'd choose the OT.

LadySylvia

06-27-2005, 04:41 PM

I wouldn't choose either. Both relationships had its share of bad or cheesy dialogue. It was especially apparent between Han and Leia in ROTJ.

It's just that Leia and Han's romance had a more modern tone to it - something akin to a screwball romance, in compare to Anakin and Padme's romance, which was based on the "courtly love" romances of the medieval age. And because of this, it's easier for moviegoers of the late 20th and early 21st centuries to deal with the more modern-style romance from the OT.

James William Alexander Atreides

06-27-2005, 04:54 PM

^ I agree. Anakin and Padme's romance was more of a long drawn out courtship while Han and Leia's was a more modern circumstantial relationship.

clarkson88

06-27-2005, 05:36 PM

I eblieve had the script been better (or the actors) then the love between Padme and Anakin could have gripped the audience completely. Mr and Mrs Manakin Skywalker fail to deliver or is it the faults of the scriptwriters?
Hand and Leia's love is the classic stable boy and princess, and i enjoy watching their relationship progress in the OT.

thechosen1

06-27-2005, 06:30 PM

well the dialogue in the scripts have always sucked throughout the entire saga... but I think the tragic undertone of Ani/Ami's love is what rises it above Han/Leia's childish puppy love

clarkson88

06-27-2005, 06:34 PM

But Harrison Ford and Carrie's acting make their love seem better. If Hayden and Portman had the talents of them then without a doubt the love between Ani and Padme would be excellent.

thechosen1

06-27-2005, 06:37 PM

don't turn this into a better actor/actress... hayden is a great actor than harrsion it's just Harrsion was able to work with the director to alter his lines... Hayden and Natalie did the best they could with the sorry script that was much more serious than casual comebacks and one liners that Harrison and Leia had to read...

clarkson88

06-27-2005, 06:57 PM

I think Hayden could have done better. He is too whining. The script and the acting could have been better.

thechosen1

06-27-2005, 07:04 PM

GL has already clearly stated that Hayden didn't want to be whiney, he wanted to be dark but GL said that they must show the inner struggle and teenage angst/rebellion

LadySylvia

06-28-2005, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by thechosen1@Jun 27 2005, 04:37 PM
don't turn this into a better actor/actress... hayden is a great actor than harrsion it's just Harrsion was able to work with the director to alter his lines... Hayden and Natalie did the best they could with the sorry script that was much more serious than casual comebacks and one liners that Harrison and Leia had to read...
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

You guys actually thought that Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher did a better job? Have you guys forgotten "Return of the Jedi" . . . and some of the dialogue in that film?

Talcy

06-28-2005, 02:42 PM

But the love story in Jedi had already been established. It really only consisted of a few lines - we already knew.

I thought it was appallingly handled in AOTC - I reallt felt sorry for Hayden having to spout those lines about "agony", etc.

Yet, I believed it a bit more in Sith.

Funny old world.

lovelucas

06-28-2005, 02:43 PM

and the called-in performances (with the exception of mark, who really cared about his character). harrison looked and acted like he had better things to do... hayden, ewan and ian were spectatuclar in RotS - and with the exception of one scene natalie was very good also, especially mustafar.

James William Alexander Atreides

06-28-2005, 03:27 PM

Natalie was excellent in the film. One wonders if these films have made her career or has hurt it.

LadySylvia

06-29-2005, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Talcy@Jun 28 2005, 12:42 PM
But the love story in Jedi had already been established. It really only consisted of a few lines - we already knew.

I thought it was appallingly handled in AOTC - I reallt felt sorry for Hayden having to spout those lines about "agony", etc.

Yet, I believed it a bit more in Sith.

Funny old world.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

So what if the love story was already established? I still saw a lot of bad acting. In fact, I thought the love scenes between Han and Leia in ROTJ was probably the worst in the entire saga. And a few of their scenes in ESB wasn't that great.

But hey - you're entitled to your opinion. I simply don't agree with you. That's all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Natalie was excellent in the film. One wonders if these films have made her career or has hurt it.[/b][/quote]

From what I've seen on "Inside Actor's Studio" and her subsequent career, I suspect that the SW films have helped it.

James William Alexander Atreides

06-30-2005, 08:15 PM

^That's great!! I'm so happy!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happydance.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/victory.gif

GeneralDirection

06-30-2005, 08:36 PM

If we look at them across all the movies, for me the ESB Han/Leia romace edges out the AotC Anakin/Padme one - however, the RotS Anakin/Padme scenes are infinitely better than the Han/Leia RotJ ones. Han and Leia in RotJ are appalling - it's clear than neither actor can be bothered, they both look bored, and their scenes together are sometimes quite childish and - dare I say it - badly written. With Anakin and Padme in RotS, I get a sense a sense of real chemistry, and a lot of drama there, with the plot very much hingeing on the relationship.

James William Alexander Atreides

06-30-2005, 09:47 PM

Anakin and Padme are more compatable.

AannaSolo

07-02-2005, 12:12 PM

Firstly, the reason, I believe, that 4 was so good is that the actors had the guts to tell George L. that the scripts sucked and they had the courage to act out the passages in a "real to life" way. We've all seen the docos.

Same with 5 and 6.

But by the time we get to 123, and George has clout, the actors stick to the cardboard words and none seem able to add their own flavour, mores the pity.

Ant

07-02-2005, 02:02 PM

The AOTC love stort annoyed me

chica_cherrycola

07-04-2005, 04:21 AM

I really didn't care for the AOTC love story...It was too mooshy for my taste...yuck!

I mean...half of the movie all we see is the two "love-birds" having their little romance in between a war ¬¬ . And the on thing that really ANNOYED me was the scene where we're seeing an awesome shot of the whole clone army with an amazing background song, and then the whole thing is shut down by one of the many romantic scenes in the film...What the...?! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/giveup.gif

jom

07-04-2005, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by thechosen1@Jun 27 2005, 01:37 PM
don't turn this into a better actor/actress... hayden is a great actor than harrsion it's just Harrsion was able to work with the director to alter his lines... Hayden and Natalie did the best they could with the sorry script that was much more serious than casual comebacks and one liners that Harrison and Leia had to read...
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

I agree with this in part. This had nothing to do with the actors but I don't think the script was the real problem. It really comes down to direction. GL did not do a very good job with either of the first two prequels. Nor did Marquand (sp?) on ROJ. When the directing got better (ESB and ROTS) you see a HUGE difference in the movies.

If you evaluate the actors in both series I believe the PT's are FAR superior overall. I mean, Ford is probably the only "good" actor in the OT and if you compare him to McGregor, Neeson, Jackson, McDiarmid and Portman it really is no contest. Even Hayden has been good in his other roles. Lloyd may not be a good child actor but since Lucas was VERY poor handling him JL never got much of a chance. If Spielberg (or someone similar) had directed TPM we would have had a much different view of the movie, IMO.

jom

James William Alexander Atreides

07-07-2005, 04:41 AM

The Padme/Anakin courtship was much better than Han/Leia's situational romance.

packersfan

11-09-2005, 01:35 AM

The romance is different between the two movies. Both are awkward as most romances are. How can you compare romances, everyone has different dynamics, awkwardness, etc. I think my romance would be a mix of both Han/Leia and Ani/Ami. All romances are different. The new one was more powerful for me. Loved it, because it had a tragic feeling, you knew if was going to end. Leia and Han's had a happy ending, eventually they get married.

Sam

11-09-2005, 03:21 AM

I've posted this analysis of AOTC and its love story previously, in another thread, as part of a comprehensive look at the PT.

AOTC has a political story that was a tough sell in the Spring of 2002. I found that it bears an uncanny resemblance to the real world after 9/11. I say "uncanny," becuase Lucas wrote the script and digitally recorded the actors' performances long before 9/11. He could not have known how prophetic his story would be, unless he had premonitions through the Force (kidding). And since the film's message was diametrically opposed to where the US was headed in 2002 (basically the same direction Anakin and the Galactic Republic were headed), I saw it as courageous. This may have hurt the film's acceptance in the short term, but may help it in the long term when people look back on it.

AOTC's other major plus was its action sequences, which were part of the story, rather than just action for action's sake. The early chase through Coruscant was reminiscent of Blade Runner, but in a good way. Obi-Wan and the Fetts stalking each other in Genosis' rings supplied some needed suspense (even though Joss Whedon and Don Bluth beat them to it in Titan A.E.). The Battle of Genosis showed more Jedi in action that we had ever seen before or since, and they turned out to be all races, genders and species. Mace Windu had his best line here, "This party's over." (Was that in the script, or did Samuel L. Jackson ad lib it?)

Yet, the political atmosphere at the time wasn't the only reason more people didn't embrace AOTC. First, those who didn't catch by the end of TPM that Palpatine and Sidious were the same guy, missed a lot in AOTC, including the one Jar Jar Binks scene that really worked, and AOTC's own Sixth Sense-like moment at the end, when Dooku/Tyranus meets with Palpatine/Sidious. Second, had the political scenes been written and performed in such a way that more of the players displayed dedication and passion in what they were doing, there would have been fewer critics calling them "boring." Third, the love story did not work for virtually anyone apart from the fans, and even the fans are divided over it.

I've been told that Lucas' intent was to make it a 19th Century-style romantic tragedy. That's the problem right there. It would be fine, if the movie were about the 19th Century. Then, you would expect the characters' values to be of that time. But placed in a setting with futuristic technology and modern politics, it looks dated and out of place. To those who don't know what it's supposed to be, it just looks like bad writing and bad acting. It isn't like the Jedi story, which works in the sci fi setting even though it's based on ancient mythology. That's because the myths that are used, via Joseph Campbell, are relatively timeless. Had the romantic scenes been written and performed brilliantly, they might have been able to overcome the genre mismatch. But they were not, and the result was me and many others finding the love story simply not believable. I did not believe that Padme would fall for Anakin as he was portrayed by Hayden Christensen. (I suspect that Natalie Portman didn't believe it either.) This would have consequences for ROTS.

DonSwoosh

11-09-2005, 10:50 AM

"I've been told that Lucas' intent was to make it a 19th Century-style romantic tragedy. That's the problem right there. It would be fine, if the movie were about the 19th Century. Then, you would expect the characters' values to be of that time. But placed in a setting with futuristic technology and modern politics, it looks dated and out of place. To those who don't know what it's supposed to be, it just looks like bad writing and bad acting. It isn't like the Jedi story, which works in the sci fi setting even though it's based on ancient mythology. That's because the myths that are used, via Joseph Campbell, are relatively timeless. Had the romantic scenes been written and performed brilliantly, they might have been able to overcome the genre mismatch. But they were not, and the result was me and many others finding the love story simply not believable. I did not believe that Padme would fall for Anakin as he was portrayed by Hayden Christensen. (I suspect that Natalie Portman didn't believe it either.) This would have consequences for ROTS."

As Sam has pointed out, this is one of main problems with accepting the style that Lucas used in the Prequels, especially when it deals with Anakin and Padme. Because of the setting, it doesn't match. But, I believe it to be a bold and smart move to have a distinct difference even down to the dialogue between the two trilogies because it really is two different eras.

And I would also suggest that instead of thinking that Padme fell in love with Anakin at the end of Episode II, I would offer up this alternative; at the end of the film, Padme is committed to looking out for Anakin and taking care of him. She is attracted to him. But, there's stronger connection than that. At Anakin's lowest point in that film, she decided then that she would look after the young man. Given the circumstances at the end, it is also easy to see why Padme choose to be with him. They are both faced with the immediate possibilty of death and she cares for him so she grabs hold on this small happiness before she faces impending doom. After she says what she says, she can't take it back. During the wedding, you can tell Anakin is extremely happy but the way Portman plays it, you can also tell that Padme is a bit fearful of her decision. She's just not sure. Now given the evidence in Episode III, it is very easy to guess that in the course of the three years between the two events, Padme has grown to love Anakin unconditionally.

And their story in Episode III is 10 times better than what Leia and Han went through in Episode VI. Their story together ended when they rescued Han from Jabba.

Go ahead, Sam. Fire back. I'm waiting on it. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

DarthVixen

11-09-2005, 12:02 PM

This whole "futuristic thing"... is an idea of yours... as far as i´m concerned it all happens a long time ago... in a galaxy far far away.

and even if we have a lot to criticize about Hayden´s performance he´s so hot, that anyone could fall for him.

Mark Skywalker

11-09-2005, 02:26 PM

The romance was much better in The OT. Than it was in PT, in the PT it was Awful .

Nairb

11-09-2005, 03:53 PM

Well, I'm a guy, and I was touched by it. I found it necessary, of course.

Sam

11-10-2005, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by DonSwoosh+Nov 9 2005, 09:50 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DonSwoosh @ Nov 9 2005, 09:50 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>As Sam has pointed out, this is one of main problems with accepting the style that Lucas used in the Prequels, especially when it deals with Anakin and Padme. Because of the setting, it doesn't match. But, I believe it to be a bold and smart move to have a distinct difference even down to the dialogue between the two trilogies because it really is two different eras.[/b]

The move backfired. It was that, more than anything else, that reduced both critical and audience acceptance of the PT films.

Originally posted by DonSwoosh@Nov 9 2005, 09:50 AM
And I would also suggest that instead of thinking that Padme fell in love with Anakin at the end of Episode II, I would offer up this alternative; at the end of the film, Padme is committed to looking out for Anakin and taking care of him. She is attracted to him. But, there's stronger connection than that. At Anakin's lowest point in that film, she decided then that she would look after the young man. Given the circumstances at the end, it is also easy to see why Padme choose to be with him. They are both faced with the immediate possibilty of death and she cares for him so she grabs hold on this small happiness before she faces impending doom. After she says what she says, she can't take it back. During the wedding, you can tell Anakin is extremely happy but the way Portman plays it, you can also tell that Padme is a bit fearful of her decision. She's just not sure. Now given the evidence in Episode III, it is very easy to guess that in the course of the three years between the two events, Padme has grown to love Anakin unconditionally.

Your alternative approach to the story in AOTC is more believable than the official line. But, if you are correct, then it's a failure of the writing and the performances that it didn't come across to more people. It also makes it even less believable that, by ROTS, Padme would be so hopelessly in love with Anakin that it incapacitates her to the extent that it does. She would, instead, be more like she is in my rewrite.

As with the one for AOTC, I've posted this analysis of ROTS previously, in another thread.

With the subject matter ROTS was taking on, it had the highest potential of any of the films, in the PT or OT, to achieve an enduring epic status. It was where everything that had been set up in the two previous films was to pay off. The part of the story that paid off best was Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin to turn him to the Dark Side. Washington Post critic Stephen Hunter referred to it as answering "The Question" of "what makes Man evil." Those who complained that Anakin's turn in the middle of the film was too sudden apparently missed the fact that the earlier scene where he beheaded Count Dooku at Palpatine's urging was a major step. (The look on Christopher Lee's face at that moment was priceless.)

ROTS' political message was more direct this time, maybe as revenge for people having missed it in AOTC. The political climate in the country had changed, and the movie attracted the attention of media commentators, some of whom compared it to "Farenheit 911." It even found its way into the fight on the floor of the US Senate over Bill Frist's "Nuclear Option." Another reason ROTS got so much press attention is that it stepped into the present day culture war in America and took a stand on the issue that is the war's foundation. I'm with Obi-Wan in the exchange:

ANAKIN: If you're not with me, then you are my enemy!

OBI-WAN: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.

Absolutists struck back, attacking Obi-Wan’s line for contradicting the existence of evil in the story. It's important to give an answer to this charge, and I offer this one: An absolute, such as “evil,” does not exist in a vacuum. It is created by those who deal in absolutes, like a self-fulfilling prophecy. An example of a self-fulfilling prophecy is in the movie—Anakin’s dream. The same does not necessarily apply to “good,” since “good” is not necessarily an absolute. Perfect is, but nobody’s perfect.

By taking on such issues, Lucas was again taking a risk, but in this case it paid off. It seemed to gain more audience for the movie than it lost, partly because those who would be most offended by these themes tended not to go to Star Wars movies anyway. And these themes fit well into the rest of the story. But then, in another part of the story, the law of unintended consequences took effect.

Except for what happens near the end of it, most reviews cited the love story as being the weakest part of the movie, and it appears general audiences saw it that way as well. The widespread disbelief in what it inherited from AOTC was a factor. In my case, since the performances were better this time, I could accept that Padme loved Anakin. Yet I could not suspend disbelief that, by the beginning of ROTS, Padme's relationship with Anakin would so debilitate her that she could not do the things which the PT's other story elements were calling upon her to do. Situations and character traits, which were set up in the previous films and should have paid off here, did not. As one person put it succinctly, she's "shut and pregnant." Her only actions are directed through or at Anakin. The original screenplay contains deleted scenes, where Padme is with other Senators who are acting to stop Palpatine. Unfortunately, these scenes show her to be the weakest and least competant player in the group, and their bid to restore power to the Senate dies earlier than it should.

Another part of the love story that many found not believable was Padme dying of a broken heart, even though she was having babies. I didn't believe that it would be solely because of what Anakin does to her, but could accept it being that plus other factors. These would be losing the Republic to Palpatine, whom she knows took Anakin as well, and wanting to save her children from being taken by him. Making this evident in the movie would have increased audience acceptance of the ending.

I will admit that I'm unusual, not in taking this position on the Padme controversy; many have; but in the intensity of my reaction. It took a long time to figure out precisely why this reaction was so intense. It turns out to be about the culture war, only this time it's on the opposite side. On most of the controversial issues that the PT takes up, it comes down on the side of Blue America, which includes me and, I think, a majority of the Star Wars audience in the US. Although politically Padme remains in the Blue camp in ROTS, socially it's the reverse. The idea that marriage or pregnancy shifts a woman's priorities so far that she's incapable of being effective in her profession or Government position, plays to the way that much of Red America views women. This same view of women has them trying to do things primarily through their husbands instead of themselves. Much of Blue America is offended by this portrayal, which we see as an attempt to turn back the clock.

I don't think Lucas consciously intended for his love story to send that message. I accept that he was attempting to do a 19th Century romantic tragedy. The problem arose from its being taken out of its element and placed in an environment where, for those sensitive to the issues, it became incompatible with the rest of the story. That incompatibility resulted in a movie that many of us see, although probably more sub-consciously than consciously, as culturally divided against itself. Its other themes still appear to have gained ROTS more audience that it lost, but I expect this situation is hampering the ability of that extra audience, and much of the existing audience, to fully embrace the film.

<!--QuoteBegin-DonSwoosh@Nov 9 2005, 09:50 AM
And their story in Episode III is 10 times better than what Leia and Han went through in Episode VI. Their story together ended when they rescued Han from Jabba.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/quote]
The Han and Leia story in ROTJ was thin, but, at least, it didn't demean women. Jabba tried to demean Leia, but she got the most fitting revenge on him. (Plus, it seemed that she, Luke, Lando and Chewbacca (and R2-D2?) planned the whole thing, "Mission Impossible"-style.)

And it isn't quite accurate to say that the Han and Leia story ended with Jabba. During the battle of Endor, there was the reversal of the "I love you." "I know." exchange, which practically brought the house down. And it took the brother/sister thing at the end to put Han's jealousy of Luke to rest.

As for what Padme's role was reduced to, and what she was denied the opportunity to do, in ROTS, I, as a member of the audience, felt betrayed. I had waited six years to see a monumental, Rebellion-inspiring showdown between Padme and her former mentor Palpatine, or something else equally noble. It never came. Her only major move was going to Mustafar to confront Anakin, and only after Obi-Wan manipulated her into going so he could stowaway on her ship. Though a powerful scene, it was too little, too late. It could have been more powerful, had it been Padme's last, desperate move, rather than her only one.

The primary reason for my doing the script rewrite, which appears to have so upset you judging from earlier posts in various threads, was to restore the character Padme to someone whom I can root for and care more deeply about what happens to her. And this upgraded version of her has worked for everyone else who's commented on it so far.

tenorsaxgirl93

04-12-2006, 09:58 PM

i loved those scenes on Naboo during their picnic...i wish my bf would do that w/ me :cry: :love: :saber: kill him! :crying:

Jeff Darklighter

04-12-2006, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by vertstream@May 23 2002, 10:59 AM
but I do think we should discuss how the hell Padme dies..
..does any 1 know?
Try here: http://www.galacticsenate.com/index.php?showtopic=15544

Jeff Darklighter

04-12-2006, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Teta@May 22 2002, 08:00 PM
Ok..so many critics pick on the romance between Ani and Ami. I think it is just as good, and for different reasons. I find it really touching that Darth Vader's love stroy is just a story of two busy teenagers who suddenly find their puppy crush is much more imprtant than imagined, becuase of event sin their lives. They are different people--young anf still relatively innocent.

Han and Leia,on the other hand, are grown, mature, world-weary, and hard-bitten experienced individuals who have been growing up in a time when the Republic has crumbled and the galaxy is at war. Noreover, Leia is a different person than Ami. Ami I thinkwas just really a sweet and gentle soul who had to grow a shell to protect her from public life. Whereas, Leia was "born" to her role. She is like her father Anakin: the angry outburst, the icy glare, and the cool composure. So it is natural that in AOTC, (unlike ESB) the romancc cosists of seet nothings, vs arguments and wisecracks in Empire that are more like today's world.

What do you think?
Their ages weren't that different. All were in their early to min 20s except Han who was about 30. The maturity difference was there though. Padme' and Anikin didn't get to mature as much serving as Queen and in Jedi training, respectively. Where Leia didn't become a senator until she was about 17 or 18 and Han had more years.

All in all just think the romances were different, not better or worse. Leia and Han took more time to develop their relationship for various reasons.

MasterJedi12

04-13-2006, 03:24 AM

I am ignorant in certain matters but what really bites me is how people criticized the prequels because they are not like the originals. NEWSFLASH: They are NOT SUPPOSED to be like the OT! The prequels were meant to convey of a time that you only hear of like when old Obi-wan says, "An elegant weapon of a more civilized age...before the dark times, before the Empire."
I admit the romance was a bit fast for my taste but come on. This nitpicking on how Padme is portrayed is really...well pointless. Times were different in the last days of the Republic. Diplomacy and democracy were the key instruments in maintaining justice.
Anakin and Padme's romance in AOTC did not have flaws in my opinion. There are some things I would have done differently but it developed quite nice.
I better stop now because my thoughts are running wild.

Sluggo

04-13-2006, 01:12 PM

JSunday

04-13-2006, 05:43 PM

I think the difference between OT and PT romance was that it was just different tonally. Leia and Han were more contemporary....felt a bit more like "real life." The PT romance felt more classic cinema....old style....and also their romance was something new to them both. It had a very dramatic-though-naive sense about it. Han and Leia had a more edgy approach, especially since she was so resistant to him.

JSunday

04-13-2006, 05:49 PM

You have a point about the prequels not like the classic trilogy. Be mindful though that this is not the same thing as whether or not the prequels were well produced and acted. The fact that the prequels portrayed a different era "before the dark times, before the Empire", doesn't mean that actors can get away with bad acting resulting from bad writing.

I think they just followed Lucas's direction and played it like he wanted, whereas I think Lucas from 30 years before, Kershner and Marquand brought different elements and sensibilities to their takes on the performances.

I don't think the PT performance were bad....just styled a certain way. The OT ones were too, at least on the page. But Ford and Fisher (and Kershner, especially) improvised and worked more on feeling than line delivery. Lucas is "capture the intent and move on." It's just a different approach.

It's funny because Kershner made the best quality acted SW film....but in doing so he set the bar up to where everything else seemed a bit more forced. It was both a blessing (cuz it was good) and a curse (because unless you achieved that again, you failed). Not my take, mind you...but that's kind of the general thinking.

James

04-14-2006, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by MasterJedi12@Apr 13 2006, 06:24 PM
I admit the romance was a bit fast for my taste but come on. This nitpicking on how Padme is portrayed is really...well pointless. Times were different in the last days of the Republic. Diplomacy and democracy were the key instruments in maintaining justice.
Anakin and Padme's romance in AOTC did not have flaws in my opinion. There are some things I would have done differently but it developed quite nice.
Quoted post

I didn't like the love story between Anakin and Padmé as much as between Leia and Han but it wasn't terrible.

And i agree with you MJ12 about this nitpicking about Padmé's character. ROTS is not really about Padmé its about Anakin and his fall to the darkside.

Sam, you may have been waiting 6 years for the showdown between Padmé and Palpatine but that the rebellion isn't really very relevant to ROTS. Others have been waiting 20-something years for the final showdown between Anakin and Obi-Wan. I repeat the story is about Anakin and how he came to be Darth Vader.

MasterJedi12

04-14-2006, 04:04 AM

Yes we see how he turns to the darkside and we see how he gets his famous getup: the black suit and imposing mask and that James Earl Jones voice
That was the overall theme hence Revenge of the Sith

LadySylvia

04-14-2006, 01:31 PM

"I've been told that Lucas' intent was to make it a 19th Century-style romantic tragedy. That's the problem right there. It would be fine, if the movie were about the 19th Century. Then, you would expect the characters' values to be of that time. But placed in a setting with futuristic technology and modern politics, it looks dated and out of place.

You do know that the Star Wars saga is set in "a galaxy far, far away", don't you? And who said that part of the setting had to do with modern politics? Those people who claimed that Palpatine's rise to power was a take on the Bush Administrations?

Also, Anakin and Padme's relationship was not a 19th Century-style romantic tragedy. It was based on Medieval-style romantic courtship and tragedy. Their relationship was a take on something called "courtly love". Also, the backdrop of their romance is set in what the older Obi-Wan Kenobi called "an elegant and more civilized age". That is why Anakin seemed to be more well-mannered and formal around Padme than Han was around Leia. Everything about their manners and dialogue is based upon a more formal style than was shown in the OT. On the other hand, Han and Leia's romance was based on more modern romances . . . which is why fans had an easier time relating to their romance than with Anakin and Padme's.

I would also like to add that Anakin and Padme's romance do has its share of fans. In fact, I would say that there are more fans than many of the A/P detractors would like to admit. Just check out the Internet and you will find practically a slew of Anakin/Padme pages.

If you dislike the Anakin/Padme romance . . . fine. But don't assume that everyone will agree that it was worse than the Han/Leia romance. I certainly don't think so. Nor do I believe that the Han/Leia romance was worse. The two romances are simply different, as far as I'm concerned. Why? One played out in a more formal and tragic setting . . . and the other didn't.

James

04-15-2006, 06:45 AM

Sylvia, That is a very balanced perspective of the romance issue. The Padmé and Anakin romance has grown on me lately, I used to dislike it with a passion.

It's true that it is difficult to compare/contrast the OT and PT romance - both are in different settings, have different themes, have different events surrounding the love stories.

Padmé and Anakin's romance is like one of those old time romances between two different kinds of people. Both are deeply in love but due to differences it just can't work, which is one of the chief reasons for its failure. Leia and Han were in more similar positions, and it is like one of these more modern romances where at first they seem to asbolutely despise each other but end up falling in love.

I Must say I liked the hint of romance between Luke and Leia in ANH, before GL got the idea to make them siblings. It really brings out the idea of young adventurous farmboy and the damsel in distress.

csr74

04-15-2006, 07:56 AM

I tend to agree with James, thouh the reason why it failed weren´t (IMO) only the differences between them...i would say that Anakin needed urgent psychological help (and i´ve always wondered why they didn´t go to pick up her mother after TPM, it wouldn´t be such a great thing).

On the other hand, given GL´s own admitted lack of ability for romantic scenes, it could´ve been worse...imagine there were two romances going on at the same time!

James

04-15-2006, 07:22 PM

I tend to think of Anakin and Padmé kind of similar to Romeo and Juliet in some ways. The love story of R and J and also of A and P couldn't work because of their differences.

The White Tuxedo

04-15-2006, 07:27 PM

I realize the intended style and circumstances between the romances were different, but I still find Anakin and Padme's romance to be very weak.

Formal courtly love is no less passionate. But I detcted no real passion with Anakin and Padme. And the dialogue was horrendous.

I still can't figure out why Lucas felt he had to write the Prequels, or why he didn't want better writing.

MasterJedi12

04-16-2006, 02:17 AM

I think he wanted to write the prequels because people wanted to know about what happened in the "civilized age" before the Empire. You are certainly entitled to your opinions. I tend to think that it the love is different and I think what gets people is the time. Love develops over time. It was hard to see that.

Sam

04-17-2006, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by James@Apr 13 2006, 10:02 PM
Sam, you may have been waiting 6 years for the showdown between Padmé and Palpatine but that the rebellion isn't really very relevant to ROTS. Others have been waiting 20-something years for the final showdown between Anakin and Obi-Wan. I repeat the story is about Anakin and how he came to be Darth Vader.
Quoted post

There's no reason why one showdown has to exclude the other. BTW, the Anakin vs Obi-Wan showdown needed some work as well.

And what do you mean "the rebellion isn't really very relevant to ROTS"?! For continuity, the stage has to be set for it. There isn't going to be much of a rebellion, as long as Palpatine is an overwhelmingly popular Emperor promising 10,000 years of peace and prosperity, which is the impression left by ROTS. Now, if he's exposed for what he is, and can no longer rule through poplularity, but only through fear and intimidation, then it becomes clear why there's a large, popular Rebellion going on in the OT.

Sam

04-17-2006, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by LadySylvia+Apr 14 2006, 11:31 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LadySylvia @ Apr 14 2006, 11:31 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>You do know that the Star Wars saga is set in "a galaxy far, far away", don't you?[/b]

How "far away" it is, isn't relevant. What's relevant are its themes.

Originally posted by LadySylvia@Apr 14 2006, 11:31 AM
And who said that part of the setting had to do with modern politics? Those people who claimed that Palpatine's rise to power was a take on the Bush Administrations?

Lucas himself has discussed the political themes in interviews. Though he doesn't cite Bush directly, he does cite Nixon and the Vietnam War, and the tendency for history to repeat itself. He talks about how, in the past, democracies have turned themselves into dictatorships, and that he hopes this time it doesn't happen.

<!--QuoteBegin-LadySylvia@Apr 14 2006, 11:31 AM
Also, Anakin and Padme's relationship was not a 19th Century-style romantic tragedy. It was based on Medieval-style romantic courtship and tragedy. Their relationship was a take on something called "courtly love". Also, the backdrop of their romance is set in what the older Obi-Wan Kenobi called "an elegant and more civilized age".[/quote]

Whether it was 19th Century or Medieval, it was basically the same, when it came to attitudes about women. In that, I don't think those ages were either elegant or civilized. Medieval times certainly were not civilized in much of any way. Why do you think they are called The Dark Ages?

James

04-17-2006, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by Sam+Apr 17 2006, 05:16 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sam @ Apr 17 2006, 05:16 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by James@Apr 13 2006, 10:02 PM
Sam, you may have been waiting 6 years for the showdown between Padmé and Palpatine but that the rebellion isn't really very relevant to ROTS. Others have been waiting 20-something years for the final showdown between Anakin and Obi-Wan. I repeat the story is about Anakin and how he came to be Darth Vader.
Quoted post

There's no reason why one showdown has to exclude the other. BTW, the Anakin vs Obi-Wan showdown needed some work as well.
[/b]

The more important and relevant showdown was between Anakin vs. Obi-Wan

Originally posted by Sam@Apr 17 2006, 05:16 PM
And what do you mean "the rebellion isn't really very relevant to ROTS"?! For continuity, the stage has to be set for it. There isn't going to be much of a rebellion, as long as Palpatine is an overwhelmingly popular Emperor promising 10,000 years of peace and prosperity, which is the impression left by ROTS. Now, if he's exposed for what he is, and can no longer rule through poplularity, but only through fear and intimidation, then it becomes clear why there's a large, popular Rebellion going on in the OT.
Quoted post

For the purposes of this film political filibustrering isn't so important. The declaration of the empire, fall of the republic and the senate etc. are sub-themes to the main overall theme, which was of course the seduction and fall of Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Sam@Apr 17 2006, 05:48 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-LadySylvia@Apr 14 2006, 11:31 AM
Also, Anakin and Padme's relationship was not a 19th Century-style romantic tragedy. It was based on Medieval-style romantic courtship and tragedy. Their relationship was a take on something called "courtly love". Also, the backdrop of their romance is set in what the older Obi-Wan Kenobi called "an elegant and more civilized age".

Whether it was 19th Century or Medieval, it was basically the same, when it came to attitudes about women. In that, I don't think those ages were either elegant or civilized. Medieval times certainly were not civilized in much of any way. Why do you think they are called The Dark Ages?
Quoted post
[/quote]

And would you call 21st century romances any better? All we seem to get is sex thrown in our faces and those disgusting "movie kisses". What has attitudes towards women got to do with SW anyway?

MasterJedi12

04-17-2006, 03:38 AM

Possibly to the way how they are portrayed on film. In Padme's case, it was a classic romanticism. Han and Leia's was more like well, scoundrel like; none of the flowers from secret admirer type thing.

Sam

04-17-2006, 04:08 AM

For the purposes of this film political filibustrering isn't so important. The declaration of the empire, fall of the republic and the senate etc. are sub-themes to the main overall theme, which was of course the seduction and fall of Anakin Skywalker.

Then explain TPM, where Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan are given equal weight as co-protagonists, where the seduction and fall of Anakin hasn't even started (unless you count a little boy's crush on Padme as part of it), and where the main theme is of a "Phantom Menace" to the galaxy who is hiding in plain sight.

The fall of the Republic, and of the Jedi, and the rise of the Sith are the main plot of the PT. The romance is the subplot. But by reducing Padme from a co-protagonist in the political plot at the beginning, to a "desperate housewife" who can't do anything about anything at the end, Lucas has made the PT unbalanced.

What has attitudes towards women got to do with SW anyway?

Attitudes toward women has EVERYTHING to do with the treatment of Padme in ROTS.

James

04-18-2006, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by Sam@Apr 17 2006, 07:08 PM
For the purposes of this film political filibustrering isn't so important. The declaration of the empire, fall of the republic and the senate etc. are sub-themes to the main overall theme, which was of course the seduction and fall of Anakin Skywalker.

Then explain TPM, where Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan are given equal weight as co-protagonists, where the seduction and fall of Anakin hasn't even started (unless you count a little boy's crush on Padme as part of it), and where the main theme is of a "Phantom Menace" to the galaxy who is hiding in plain sight.
Quoted post

Politics is important in TPM but thankfully is given a smallish role in what we see upfront. AOTC was all the boring political stuff - at the beginning of Ep2 for the first 30 minutes or so all Anakin, Padmé, Obi-Wan etc did was talk, talk talk. GL got this out of the way for ROTS - politics was of course there but the transformation of Anakin into Darth Vader was by far the most important part. I would say that a Padmé vs. Palpatine standoff is a tad ... fanboyish.

The fall of the Republic, and of the Jedi, and the rise of the Sith are the main plot of the PT. The romance is the subplot. But by reducing Padme from a co-protagonist in the political plot at the beginning, to a "desperate housewife" who can't do anything about anything at the end, Lucas has made the PT unbalanced.

The reduction of Leia to a high ranking senator, princess of Alderaan and important leader of the Rebels in ANH to just a member of the rank and file in ROTJ made the OT unbalanced too.

What has attitudes towards women got to do with SW anyway?

Attitudes toward women has EVERYTHING to do with the treatment of Padme in ROTS.

Says who?

Sam

04-18-2006, 10:07 PM

I'm transporting this to the all things Padme thread.

James

04-18-2006, 10:13 PM

Good Idea.

LadySylvia

04-19-2006, 07:18 PM

AOTC was all the boring political stuff - at the beginning of Ep2 for the first 30 minutes or so all Anakin, Padmé, Obi-Wan etc did was talk, talk talk.

Really? I seemed to recall a speeder chase and two assassination attempts against Padme during the movie's first thirty minutes.

Are you criticizing AOTC for not being heavily action-oriented? Heck, I have difficulty in enduring the Tatooine sequences for A NEW HOPE - at least up until Luke and Obi-Wan meet Han.

James

04-19-2006, 07:26 PM

I just prefer it once Anakin and Padmé have left Coruscant and the story starts picking up.

And yeah I sometimes find the ANH Tatooine scenes pretty hard going.

James William Alexander Atreides

04-23-2006, 07:04 AM

I found the casual romance that Anakin and Padme had a more refreshing change of pace from the methodical thrown together situational relationship of Han and Leia in the OT.

MasterJedi12

04-24-2006, 06:18 PM

It was actually a bit more romantic considering that it does take place in a time when things were more refined :D

James

04-24-2006, 07:24 PM

It would have been more believable had not Hayden acted so horrible.

MasterJedi12

04-25-2006, 03:13 AM

What do expect? What a whiner that kid is. :D
Hayden was just being a younger version of our introduction to Luke.

Qolt QuaZar

04-28-2006, 05:18 AM

I do think that the romance in the original trilogy is handled much better than that of the romance in the classic trilogy. However, in both Lucas missed the opportunity in my opinion to really bring about a classic love triangle. In the prequel trilogy I would have had it be between Ani Obi & Padme & of course in the classic trilogy it was Luke Han Leia until Lucas copped out in Jedi. I refuse to believe that he knew they were brother and sister from the beginning. Otherwise Leia would never have gone to second base with Luke at Echo Base.

MasterJedi12

04-28-2006, 02:02 PM

Well there was a bit of a triangle when Ani keeps asking if Obi-wan was there and "I don't want to hear any more about Obi-wan."
Attachment leads to jealousy. Obi-wan certainly cared for Padme but probably not in the way that Ani did.

James

04-28-2006, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Qolt QuaZar@Apr 28 2006, 08:18 PM
I do think that the romance in the original trilogy is handled much better than that of the romance in the classic trilogy. However, in both Lucas missed the opportunity in my opinion to really bring about a classic love triangle. In the prequel trilogy I would have had it be between Ani Obi & Padme & of course in the classic trilogy it was Luke Han Leia until Lucas copped out in Jedi. I refuse to believe that he knew they were brother and sister from the beginning. Otherwise Leia would never have gone to second base with Luke at Echo Base.
Quoted post

I agree. The brother/sister thing always seemed like a bit of a patch-up job to me.

MasterJedi12

04-29-2006, 04:22 AM

Either that or it was an intentional thing. How many twins do you know who were separated at birth know that they were brother and sister when they met? I am not taking of identical twins either.

The White Tuxedo

04-29-2006, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by Sam+Apr 16 2006, 08:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sam @ Apr 16 2006, 08:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-LadySylvia@Apr 14 2006, 11:31 AM
Also, Anakin and Padme's relationship was not a 19th Century-style romantic tragedy.* It was based on Medieval-style romantic courtship and tragedy.* Their relationship was a take on something called "courtly love".* Also, the backdrop of their romance is set in what the older Obi-Wan Kenobi called "an elegant and more civilized age".

Whether it was 19th Century or Medieval, it was basically the same, when it came to attitudes about women. In that, I don't think those ages were either elegant or civilized. Medieval times certainly were not civilized in much of any way. Why do you think they are called The Dark Ages?
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

Well, I don't think "The Dark Ages" is a proper term. The Middles Ages, even in Europe, saw a good deal of development. But still, for most people it was a meager existence. :D I always think of the "Bring out yer dead" scene from Holy Grail.

Whatever Lucas' intent was, I still don't think the relationship between Anakin and Padme worked very well. Okay, it's based on an idealized notion of "courtly love". That's fine. That has nothing to do with the execution of it. For one, the dialogue sucks. My opinion. I love Star Wars, so I'm saying this from a place of genuine concern. I think the dialogue they had to say was horrid. I know Lucas is making these films for younger people. But that doesn't equal making crap. I'm blanking on this. I'm trying to think of a writer who wrote books and such for children, that were good. That were quality.

Anyway. There's also no real spark. I don't feel chemestry. Even if they have to act all "courtly", there should be genuine pent up feelings and lust underneath it. It's just another way of expressing it. But they didn't seem to be expressing any feeling. Just chewing on awful lines like "I wish I could wish away my wishy washy feelings." Or something like that. I didn't feel anything at all.

Another problem I have is that I don't see why Padme falls for Anakin. With Anakin... I mean falling for Padme wouldn't be difficult. But with Padme? She's a Senator. A selfless, intelligent woman. A charcater with both moral and intellectual strength. I think it's that strength that hooks Anakin. I mean, that's the sorta thing I like in a woman. But what on earth (or Naboo) does Padme see in Anakin. That should have been fleshed out (is there a pun there?), because it would have made for a fascinating plot angle. What this woman sees in this young man who we know is destined to strangle people.

Sam

04-30-2006, 12:08 AM

I, too, was baffled, as to why Padmé would fall for Anakin I suspect Natalie Portman was baffled as well, and that (along with having to act opposite Hayden Christensen) adversely impaced her performance.

Apart from the obvious explanation that the romance was forced by the writer-director, the only thing I could think of was that Padmé was Force-sensitive and liked Anakin's midichlorians. :D

James

04-30-2006, 01:10 AM

^lol!

I have to agree - why would Padmé want to love someone who was acted so dreadfully

MasterJedi12

04-30-2006, 02:28 AM

I would think she was Force Sensitive because she seemed at much better par than the Jedi Masters themselves. Look at how much closer she was in AOTC.

elelohesterling

05-11-2006, 01:28 PM

I believe the romance is much better as it is more in-depth than han-leia's romance.
Rev. Sterling J Williamson

Leiafan

05-11-2006, 04:29 PM

I prefer Han/Leia's romance, but I like the A/P romance. I'd like it even more if a different actress had played Padmé, although to give Portman her due, I liked her in TPM -- her interaction with Jake Lloyd was sweet -- and I thought she was okay in her ROTS scenes with Hayden.

Braden Dar

05-13-2006, 06:59 PM

I liked the child-like the characters approached a lot of their romantic moments in the Prequels. But I must admit to a deep love of the way Han and Leia finally admitted their love for each other.

Leia: I love you...

Han: I know.
from Episode V

Han: I love you...

Leia: I know.
from Episode VI

The context was great, especially when Han said it.

Anakin and Padme seemed a little off until ROTS. Could you imagine a woman (or at least appearing to be of adult age) looking at Jake Lloyd (as Anakin) and seeing them in love?! It just wouldn't fit. I think it was more of GL's writing than the characters themselves, but my vote is Han and Leia in the OT.

Leiafan

05-14-2006, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Braden Dar@May 13 2006, 04:59 PM
Anakin and Padme seemed a little off until ROTS. Could you imagine a woman (or at least appearing to be of adult age)
Padmé was 14 in TPM. Hardly an "adult."

looking at Jake Lloyd (as Anakin) and seeing them in love?!
They weren't. Padmé cared for Anakin, and Anakin had a crush on her -- she was the prettiest girl he'd ever seen, plus she was kind to him when he needed it.

Anakin and Padmé, being the tragic couple of the saga, fall in love quickly, a la Romeo and Juliet. They have to keep their marriage secret, which of course makes it all the more exciting. The long separations (because Anakin's fighting in the Clone Wars) add to the excitement too. I don't doubt that they love each other, but it's not a mature love. It was doomed to fail, and would be even if the underlying structure of the story didn't demand it.

Han and Leia, on the other hand, fall in love as adults. There's three years between ANH and ESB -- three years in which they get to know each other and fall in love gradually, though at the beginning of ESB, Leia is still in denial while Han wants to move things to the next level. Han and Leia, by the end of ROTJ, have a close, stable relationship. They have the mature love that Anakin and Padmé never had. And you don't doubt that they'll be together forever.

MasterJedi12

05-15-2006, 05:03 PM

No duh. They are together during EU. I think it was Lucas' intention of doing Padme's and Anakin's romance like Romeo and Juliet. It kind of makes it pathetic and yet it prickles your emotions.

bothanspy

05-16-2006, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by T'bone@Jun 25 2005, 07:28 PM
It was mostly the dialogue that was bad, not so much the acting. The OT stuff was way better and that's because of one word: Kasdan.

He colored it just right.
Quoted post

THAT IS EXACTLY ON THE MARK, T-BONE!

Now, do you have any info on whether or not Kasdan was considered or even asked to help out or author any of the Prequel scripts?

I think the apartment scene alone in Ep III makes me cringe and will always make me cringe.("no it's because I'm SO IN LOVE WITH YOU"..."then love is blind?")--I know I'm paraphrasing, but PLEASE!

I wouldn't have wanted the same repartee as Han and Leia, but give me convincing dialogue!

Leiafan

05-17-2006, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by T'bone@Jun 25 2005, 07:28 PM
It was mostly the dialogue that was bad, not so much the acting. The OT stuff was way better and that's because of one word: Kasdan.
Kasdan has said you should credit Lucas with the script for ESB, not him -- and before you reply that he's just being nice to a friend, he also said: "The script for 'Raiders' is another matter."

Also, Kershner and Ford changed a lot of the Han/Leia dialogue on-set to give it more snap. (In fact, Carrie Fisher got extremely annoyed at the way they would change stuff without consulting her; she was part of those scenes too.) So it's not just because of Kasdan.

THAT IS EXACTLY ON THE MARK, T-BONE!

Now, do you have any info on whether or not Kasdan was considered or even asked to help out or author any of the Prequel scripts?
Yes, he was. Lucas asked Kasdan to help him with the script for TPM and Kasdan told him he should write the script himself. Lucas also passed the finished script by Kasdan, and Kasdan told him it was fine.

Lucas also asked several other screenwriters, including Frank Darabont, to help him with the scripts for the PT (and let's not forget that he had a co-writer for the AOTC script). Darabont was prevented from helping out by guild restrictions. Lucas also reportedly asked an acclaimed screenwriter, I can't remember his name, to help him with the dialogue for the opera scene in ROTS.

I think the apartment scene alone in Ep III makes me cringe and will always make me cringe.("no it's because I'm SO IN LOVE WITH YOU"..."then love is blind?")--I know I'm paraphrasing, but PLEASE!
So skip over it, for heaven's sake! You know what happens during that scene; no need to subject yourself to it over and over if it makes you cringe. And yes, the dialogue in that scene is dopey, but I'm betting we all say things to our significant others that would sound dopey to outside observers.

LadySylvia

05-17-2006, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by James@Apr 29 2006, 11:10 PM
^lol!

I have to agree - why would Padmé want to love someone who was acted so dreadfully
Quoted post

What on earth makes you think that you can rationalize love?

Anakin's comments about the Tusken Raiders only supported Cliegg's. And considering how Shmi died, it's not surprising that Padme would fully understand his actions. This is the same person whose anger and frustration had opened the road to the Supreme Chancellorship to Palpatine in TPM. And considering how many human beings see nothing wrong in resorting to murder for revenge or using violence to exact revenge over the death of a loved one, Padme's reaction are even more understandable. She may have been wrong to do so. The Lars may have been wrong in viewing the Tusken Raiders as nothing more than animals suited merely for extermination . . . but a lot of humans, deep down, have nothing against such attitudes. Whether they want to admit it or not.

I think the apartment scene alone in Ep III makes me cringe and will always make me cringe.("no it's because I'm SO IN LOVE WITH YOU"..."then love is blind?")--I know I'm paraphrasing, but PLEASE!

I consider some of Leia and Han's romantic scenes as cringe-worthy. Especially in "Return of the Jedi" (like the Endor village scene, for example). But that doesn't detract my feelings about their romance as a whole.

Leiafan

05-17-2006, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by LadySylvia@May 17 2006, 12:57 PM
What on earth makes you think that you can rationalize love?

Anakin's comments about the Tusken Raiders only supported Cliegg's. And considering how Shmi died, it's not surprising that Padme would fully understand his actions. This is the same person whose anger and frustration had opened the road to the Supreme Chancellorship to Palpatine in TPM. And considering how many human beings see nothing wrong in resorting to murder for revenge or using violence to exact revenge over the death of a loved one, Padme's reaction are even more understandable. She may have been wrong to do so. The Lars may have been wrong in viewing the Tusken Raiders as nothing more than animals suited merely for extermination . . . but a lot of humans, deep down, have nothing against such attitudes. Whether they want to admit it or not.
Well said. Also, Padmé saw what a wreck Anakin was.

People carp at Hayden's acting but I think he was great in that scene. (For the record, Lucas wanted him to be emotionless until the very end, then break down -- but Hayden thought he should start out emotional and get more so as the scene progressed; Hayden said they compromised but it's obvious that his ideas won out.) Anakin is experiencing a whole range of extreme emotions, some of which don't ordinarily mix: unbearable grief (because his mother just died in his arms), unbearable guilt (because he wasn't able to save her, and because he hadn't seen her in 10 years), exhiliaration (because he's gotten his first real taste of the Dark Side), righteous anger (because he slaughtered the creatures who tortured his mother to death) mixed with yet more unbearable guilt (because he killed them all, even the women and children).

I can see why Padmé's heart went out to him, even though she probably didn't condone what he'd done.

I consider some of Leia and Han's romantic scenes as cringe-worthy. Especially in "Return of the Jedi" (like the Endor village scene, for example). But that doesn't detract my feelings about their romance as a whole.
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I don't have much fondness for the scene in ESB where Leia calls him a "stuck up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerf herder" -- both the dialogue and the delivery make me wince. But that doesn't detract from my feelings about their romance as a whole.

Although Han/Leia fans often gripe about how they lose their feistiness in ROTJ, I actually enjoy their romance evolving into something more sedate. They are completely devoted to each other, and you know they'll stay together forever. Even though I don't think Ford's acting is up to snuff, I like how Han is navigating this new territory: love. Han's had girlfriends, sure, but he's never been in love. And he just doesn't know what to make of it all -- he sees the closeness between Luke and Leia and it makes him jealous, which in turn makes him lash out childishly.