Which Stories are Canon?

[Gundark]

Which books and stories that take place in the SW universe are considered canon to the saga? For instance, the Zahn trilogy was written before the prequal movies were made. Princess Leia was shocked when she found that those dead stormtroopers were clones. Well, in the prequals we find out that all of them were clones so there would've been no reason for her to be shocked.

In the Jedi Academy trilogy (by Kevin J. Anderson), the Death Star was constructed within a few years in a secret location (maw installation) that neither Vader or the Emperor knew about. Well in "Revenge of the Sith" it was under construction under the Emperor's supervision during the clone wars and wouldn't be completed for about 2 decades. Qwi Xux & Admiral Dala would've been much older.

We also learn in the prequals that the Jedi didn't marry. Well some of the post ROTJ books show evidence that they did.

The Paul & Hollace Davis books are definitly NOT canon. The Glove of Vader, Lost City of the Jedi! Give me a doggone break!

The Marvel Comic series? Maybe some of it.

What do you think?

[The Arbiter]

There are 4 different levels of canon, G-canon, C, S and N-canon. C-canon includes most of SW information outside the movies. Among the EU corpus, the continuity guru, Leland Chee, has, unfortunately undertaken to include as much as possible into C-canon, which is considered as a "historical account" of the goings on in the SW universe. Many of these inconsistencies can be explained by lack of historical accuracy, but in any case, most major issues between G- and C- canon have been retconned in various ways, mostly by writing more books to correct such 'misconceptions'. (eg the Death Star novel being written by Steve Parry and Michael Reeves). All the novels are C-canon. Unfortunately, the GODV series are also C-canon, which is a disaster. Marvel is a continuity nightmare, especially the earlier ones, yes, like Fenn Shysha being sent to assassinate Padme and confusing her for Leia (or something to that effect).

About your issues:

TTT: I have no answer for her shock, but not all stormtroopers are clones. By ROTJ most of them were common conscripts. Remember, they all sounded different in the movies, and none like Fett in any case.

JAT: The Death Star novel should clear this particular mess. Go to wookiepedia and read the Death Star article, I think it clears up some things.

Jedi marrying: This is an awkward one. Nejaa Halcyon's case was retconned such that he actually had his child in secret, in Jedi Trial, like Anakin and Padme. And that he was a Corellian, so they get special treatment. (Unsure about this one). What's harder to retconn is the 40-year gulf between Nomi Sunrider's marriage and Bastila's emotional inexperience, which might be explained (along with the abrupt change in interior design and fashion accessories) in future books.

GODV is, sadly, canon. Leland Chee considers it to be Leia's childish account of her adventures to her young children. Han and Leia's marriage was supposed to be foiled by evul Imperial lackeys at the last moment, "because it takes such a long time to walk up the aisle". Insufferable, but true.

Marvel is screwed up when it comes to canon. I haven't touched any of it but I'm sure some wild and unrealistic solutions have been proposed for characters like Fenn Shysha and the Giant Bunny.

[Soontir Solo]

There are 4 different levels of canon, G-canon, C, S and N-canon. C-canon includes most of SW information outside the movies. Among the EU corpus, the continuity guru, Leland Chee, has, unfortunately undertaken to include as much as possible into C-canon, which is considered as a "historical account" of the goings on in the SW universe. Many of these inconsistencies can be explained by lack of historical accuracy, but in any case, most major issues between G- and C- canon have been retconned in various ways, mostly by writing more books to correct such 'misconceptions'. (eg the Death Star novel being written by Steve Parry and Michael Reeves). All the novels are C-canon. Unfortunately, the GODV series are also C-canon, which is a disaster. Marvel is a continuity nightmare, especially the earlier ones, yes, like Fenn Shysha being sent to assassinate Padme and confusing her for Leia (or something to that effect).

About your issues:

TTT: I have no answer for her shock, but not all stormtroopers are clones. By ROTJ most of them were common conscripts. Remember, they all sounded different in the movies, and none like Fett in any case.

JAT: The Death Star novel should clear this particular mess. Go to wookiepedia and read the Death Star article, I think it clears up some things.

Jedi marrying: This is an awkward one. Nejaa Halcyon's case was retconned such that he actually had his child in secret, in Jedi Trial, like Anakin and Padme. And that he was a Corellian, so they get special treatment. (Unsure about this one). What's harder to retconn is the 40-year gulf between Nomi Sunrider's marriage and Bastila's emotional inexperience, which might be explained (along with the abrupt change in interior design and fashion accessories) in future books.

GODV is, sadly, canon. Leland Chee considers it to be Leia's childish account of her adventures to her young children. Han and Leia's marriage was supposed to be foiled by evul Imperial lackeys at the last moment, "because it takes such a long time to walk up the aisle". Insufferable, but true.

Marvel is screwed up when it comes to canon. I haven't touched any of it but I'm sure some wild and unrealistic solutions have been proposed for characters like Fenn Shysha and the Giant Bunny.

The official position of Lucas is that even in ROTJ they are all Clones. Now I don't agree with this and actually just ignore what Lucas said in this regard becauase nowhere in the movie itself does it ever say this (and afterall if they were still all clones why call them stormtroopers?).

The marriage issue is pretty straightforward. Jedi weren't supposed to marry, some did in secret, the end. Though there was no special treatment for Corellians, at least that is what I get from the movies.

[DarthSolo]

While I know there is some controversy over Stormies being Clones, I don't think I ever heard that Lucas said they were all Clones even in EpVI. That's 1. just plain not logical (the aging process causes clones to die and cloning is expensive), 2. not supported by visual evidence (varying heights of stormies) 3. not supported by audio evidence (Lucas changed Boba's voice to Jango's, why not all his cloned stormies?) and 4. it's dumb (yes, #4 is juvenile, feel free to ignore it.)

[Cydon]

Poor Boba...perhaps Fett had been injured in some way that its changed his vocal chords!!

[matthius]

Ki-Adi-Mundi was also allowed to have wives because it's either the guys or chicks were in low supply on his planet.

[tunneldwellers]

Ki-Adi-Mundi was also allowed to have wives because it's either the guys or chicks were in low supply on his planet.

It was chicks, dude. chicks were in low supply, although I don't condone the word chicks, I feel it demeans women.

Listen, Ki-Adi-Mundi is unimportant, I don't even know why we're talking about Ki-Adi-Mundi. What bull****!

[The Arbiter]

Cerean males were rare, not the women.

[Luvinna]

The official position of Lucas is that even in ROTJ they are all Clones. Now I don't agree with this and actually just ignore what Lucas said in this regard becauase nowhere in the movie itself does it ever say this (and afterall if they were still all clones why call them stormtroopers?).
This was from one of the audio commentaries, right? AOTC, I think. But I don't think he said ALL stormtroopers were clones, did he? I thought it was just some of them.

But I agree with DS down here. \/

While I know there is some controversy over Stormies being Clones, I don't think I ever heard that Lucas said they were all Clones even in EpVI. That's 1. just plain not logical (the aging process causes clones to die and cloning is expensive), 2. not supported by visual evidence (varying heights of stormies) 3. not supported by audio evidence (Lucas changed Boba's voice to Jango's, why not all his cloned stormies?) and 4. it's dumb (yes, #4 is juvenile, feel free to ignore it.)

[Ripley]

While I know there is some controversy over Stormies being Clones, I don't think I ever heard that Lucas said they were all Clones even in EpVI. That's 1. just plain not logical (the aging process causes clones to die and cloning is expensive), 2. not supported by visual evidence (varying heights of stormies) 3. not supported by audio evidence (Lucas changed Boba's voice to Jango's, why not all his cloned stormies?) and 4. it's dumb (yes, #4 is juvenile, feel free to ignore it.)
Not all the clones are bucketheads = problem solved.

[Gundark]

Well if GODV is canon, that doesn't mean that LCOTJ is, does it?

[Master Magnus]

While I know there is some controversy over Stormies being Clones, I don't think I ever heard that Lucas said they were all Clones even in EpVI. That's 1. just plain not logical (the aging process causes clones to die and cloning is expensive), 2. not supported by visual evidence (varying heights of stormies) 3. not supported by audio evidence (Lucas changed Boba's voice to Jango's, why not all his cloned stormies?) and 4. it's dumb (yes, #4 is juvenile, feel free to ignore it.)
Yes, that's true. I posted a link to an interview with George Lucas last year in which he says that the Empire had started using other clone strains and conscripts by the time of ANH: IGN (http://movies.ign.com/articles/613/613366p1.html).

[Konig15]

Yes, that's true. I posted a link to an interview with George Lucas last year in which he says that the Empire had started using other clone strains and conscripts by the time of ANH: IGN (http://movies.ign.com/articles/613/613366p1.html).

If it's BY THE TIME OF ANH, what's the problem. I've read stormtrooper stories where the guys were non-clones and this doesn't change a thing.

BTW, now that we're here, is Lost City of the Jedi considered canon or not? I'd think not cause I never heard of it until I found Wookieepedia, X-Wing makes no mention of it AT ALL.

[Master Magnus]

If it's BY THE TIME OF ANH, what's the problem. I've read stormtrooper stories where the guys were non-clones and this doesn't change a thing.
I wasn't implying that it was a problem, I mentioned it without commenting.

BTW, now that we're here, is Lost City of the Jedi considered canon or not? I'd think not cause I never heard of it until I found Wookieepedia, X-Wing makes no mention of it AT ALL.
All stories, with the exception of materials carrying the Infinities logo, are canon. And yes, that includes the Jedi Prince children's novels.

[Cydon]

Ouch. Thats painful.

[Gundark]

The entire Paul & Hollice Davis series makes no sense. They say that Lando was the mayor of Cloud City after ROTJ. That's not true because he became the admisistrator of Nkylon after ROTJ. Also, if LCOTJ were canon, then it would've been mentioned in the Jedi Academy Trilogy as well as the Young Jedi Knights series. Right? Also, in LCOTJ, there was an organization called S.P.I.N. set up at the old base on Yavin IV. Well, according to the JAT, the base hadn't been used since the Battle of Yavin.

Conclusion: The Paul & Hollice Davis series is NOT canon.

[Cydon]

But isn't it officially canon?

[Ripley]

The entire Paul & Hollice Davis series makes no sense. They say that Lando was the mayor of Cloud City after ROTJ. That's not true because he became the admisistrator of Nkylon after ROTJ. Also, if LCOTJ were canon, then it would've been mentioned in the Jedi Academy Trilogy as well as the Young Jedi Knights series. Right? Also, in LCOTJ, there was an organization called S.P.I.N. set up at the old base on Yavin IV. Well, according to the JAT, the base hadn't been used since the Battle of Yavin.

Conclusion: The Paul & Hollice Davis series is NOT canon.

Sorry to burst your fanboy wet dream, but GODV is canon. Gratuitous references that serve no purpose is not continuity. Since you kids seem big on references he is mentioned in one of the Episode One Adventures book, a Holonet News article, and even Rebel Dream. Point is that until an infinites label is slapped on the source in question is canon. Also there are fans, myself included, that enjoy GODV for the camp value.

[Cydon]

Well if that was the only EU Material, then I'd be more opening to it.

[The Broox]

Sorry to burst your fanboy wet dream, but GODV is canon. Gratuitous references that serve no purpose is not continuity. Since you kids seem big on references he is mentioned in one of the Episode One Adventures book, a Holonet News article, and even Rebel Dream. Point is that until an infinites label is slapped on the source in question is canon. Also there are fans, myself included, that enjoy GODV for the camp value.

GODV was my first EU experience and needless to say they hold a special place in my heart. I will defend GODV till the end.

[Cydon]

Hey Broox! How everything going?

My first EU experience was Star Wars: X-Wing for PC. That launched everything else EU for me.

[The Broox]

Hey Broox! How everything going?

Uhh, good. Although this isn't a chat thread.

[Cydon]

Sorry, couldn't help it. I stopped going to the SW Forums so I had to say hi.

Are any of the Essential Guides canon? I noticed that some have fanon.

[The Broox]

Sorry, couldn't help it. I stopped going to the SW Forums so I had to say hi.

Are any of the Essential Guides canon? I noticed that some have fanon.

I just saw a post by you last night.

They are 100% cannon, they are licensed by LFL making them official. They are far from Fannon.

[Cydon]

Thanks.

And yes, I wanted info about Allegiance and saw Drew K. was there.

[Urplepay]

Yes, that's true. I posted a link to an interview with George Lucas last year in which he says that the Empire had started using other clone strains and conscripts by the time of ANH: IGN (http://movies.ign.com/articles/613/613366p1.html).
Which explains why the stormies in the OT have different-sounding voices, whereas if they were all clones, they'd all sound like Tem Morrison.

The movies are the highest level of canon. I think after that it goes: scripts, novelizations, EU.

They are 100% cannon, they are licensed by LFL making them official. They are far from Fannon.
They are fanon, they've simply been licensed, like other tie-in products (games, toys, etc.)

[DarthSolo]

Fanon is fan fiction. Fanon is stuff that is not officially recognized. The EU is officially recognized by the fact that it's liscenced. It is canon. It is a lower level of canon, but it is canon.

[Urplepay]

Fanon is fan fiction. Fanon is stuff that is not officially recognized. The EU is officially recognized by the fact that it's liscenced. It is canon. It is a lower level of canon, but it is canon.
Which is what I said.

[The Broox]

Which is what I said.

No, you called them Fanon, which they are not.

[DblDwn]

The movies are the only official canon. And that which Lucas has a direct hand in creating either the script or the story, like the upcoming live action TV show. The Clone Wars cartoons are borderline canon for this reason as well but do contain various things that are only possible through the power of animation. All EU novels, as well as comics and the like, are not considered canon because Lucas does not have a direct involvement in telling the story. Sure Lucasfilm licenses them for monetary reasons, and credits them as unoffical canon on the website to increase sales for said monetary reasons as well, but they do not officially count in the grand scheme of the saga.

[TuskenRaider1]

And yet, LFL considers the EU books cannon, as the plot arcs progress. There are lesser levels sure, but they have to be considered.

[eddie]

And that which Lucas has a direct hand in creating either the script or the story, like the upcoming live action TV show.

It has been stated that GL himself will closely oversee the first season of the live-action show. But what if he appoints another story-supervisor for the subsequent seasons. Does this mean that only part of the tv-series will be canon?

[DblDwn]

And yet, LFL considers the EU books cannon, as the plot arcs progress. There are lesser levels sure, but they have to be considered.

As I stated, as a means of pushing for more book sales to which they receive monetary compensation for as licensed distributors of. But, in terms of the actual storyline, they are not canon. If they were LFL would rate them on an equal playing field as being the same level of canon as the films. But since they are not, LFL is clearly telling us that they are not really that much canon at all. It's all about making money.

[DblDwn]

It has been stated that GL himself will closely oversee the first season of the live-action show. But what if he appoints another story-supervisor for the subsequent seasons. Does this mean that only part of the tv-series will be canon?

On the contrary it has been stated that Lucas is not going to begin production on the TV show until all 100 episodes, the current intended run of the series, are written, primarily by himself or with him as co-writer and based on his story arc, and ready for filming. That said, the show will be 100% canon.

If it goes beyond the intended 100 episodes then we will have to wait and see what George's continued involvement is before we start making decisions on its level of canon.

[bluemilk]

EU materials plus the radio dramas and novelizations are all considered offical canon unless otherwise stated. There are different levels of canon to be sure but materials created that are not the movies doesn't negate their being canon. /endgame.

[TuskenRaider1]

So these definitions of cannon are yours? Or are you going off of a GL list we dont know about. Lucas himself has said that there are varying levels of cannon, but that the books, when they dont contradict the films are an extension of his universe. Money and liscencing are fine (after all, why come out with mulitple sets of the DVD and call each definitive), BUT the fact that he has approved the use of his material in a single timeline (as opposed to say the infinities comic series) they have to be considered in the SWU timeline.

[bluemilk]

I'm going off the different levels of canon as laid down by Lucas' companies and Leeland Chee (the almighty keeper of the Holocron).

[TuskenRaider1]

Sorry, I meant the question for DblDwn, not you....I happen to agree with Chee's list.

[The Broox]

Sorry, I meant the question for DblDwn, not you....I happen to agree with Chee's list.

And even if you didn't it wouldn't matter since it he has the final word.

[TuskenRaider1]

Damn skippy.

[DblDwn]

Technically each of us individually, as fans, have the final word. If you choose to follow the EU then more power to you. Some fans, such as myself, choose to only follow the story as told by the creator, George Lucas, himself. It is my feeling that whether LFL licenses the EU or not is moot because Lucas doesn't write the stories contained in the EU.

It's like Jaws 2, 3 and Jaws: The Revenge, or Jurassic Park 3. Peter Benchley and Michael Crichton wrote the novels for Jaws and Jurassic Park/The Lost World, respectively. They then sold the movie rights for those books to the studios. But Benchley never wrote a novel for Jaws 2, Jaws 3 or Jaws: The Revenge and Crichton never wrote a novel for Jurassic Park 3 and the rumored Jurassic Park 4 for that matter. Yet assuming they are as clever at business as Lucas is, they are still paid royalties for using characters and titles based on their creation. That said, the sequels I mentioned, while looking at the grand scheme, are not a part of the original authors story although they carry the name of the original creation.

It's the same with Lucas and the EU with the slight exception that Star Wars is held in such a higher regard by me, you, and so many other people because as big as Jaws and Jurassic Park have become, Star Wars blows them both out of the water (Jaws related pun intended). With Star Wars it started out as a movie and it became a phenomenon that we all continue to enjoy yesterday, today and forever. And all of that is because of the story created by George Lucas. Now if he wants to license the use of his story so that others can continue it in literary form, while at the same time adding more money to his accounts, then I say more power to the man. But that doesn't mean that I have to read it or, more importantly, consider an official continuation of the 6 part saga we have in cinematic form.

But, again, that is my choice.

[bluemilk]

well of course. Nobody is saying it's wrong to be a movie purist. It's cool. Reading is hard afterall ;)

hehe.

[DarthSolo]

Well, of course it's each and every one of our choices. And of course it's about money-making. But from a completely official and objective point of view, the canon-level system is the end-all. Under that, the EU (with some acceptions) is official canon. Of course we don't have to read it or acknowledge it, for that is our right. But officially, the EU is in, just in at a lower level. :)

[DblDwn]

And the fact that the official site recognizes it as being a lesser degree of canon should tell us that it doesn't really consider it to be an official continuation of the story but they acknowledge it as semi-canon strictly, in my opinion, as a means of increasing book sales. Remember that Lucas used to say that the EU had their side and he had his, which was the real side of the story. Then, once LFL decided to license the EU and receive monetary compensation, and only then did the official site begin to state that the EU was any degree, albeit a lesser degree, of canon.

That should tell us something about how Lucas really feels about it indeed.

[bluemilk]

and let it be said that nobody is denyin' that you're right m'dear :) It's all about the money and I'm perfectly fine handing mine over for EU material. Reading is never a bad thing, IMHO, and I'd rather spend my money on novels and comic books etc. than useless 3" action figures that do nothing but attract dust.

[eddie]

I agree with you there, Bluemilk!!! I have been giving my hard-earned Euros (and before that Dutch Guilders) for more than 20 years now to read everything EU, and I have not regretted this once...

But as has been said before, it is everybody's own opinion. And even though it may be mainly about the cash, the fact that Lucasfilm/LucasBooks has decreed that the EU is indeed an official level of canon makes it so...

[silverbolt]

i thought the EU stuff at least the main novels (truce at bakura, thrawn trilogy, x-wing series, jedi academy trilogy, new jedi ordere series etc etc) were all official and a continuation from the films hence why lucas sanctioned the death of chewie at the start of NJO.

[DarthSolo]

You weren't mistaken, mate.