Konig15
12-05-2006, 11:06 PM
Yes I've posted this in the PTDF thread, but no body seems to have noticed it there (hidden in plain sight), so I'll post it where we can have a proper argument.
The Phantom Menace
My overall opinion: Far, FAR too widely maligned. It was a rocking good show, most of it. But the bad parts CRIPPLE the experience, but all and all it could be a MUCH better movie, to the point it would be considered GOOD by the general public with a little editing. I'm satisfied with the acting, only Shatner in the original Star Trek will irk me, and even then, not a lot. I haven't seen the movie since '99, but my facts should hold:
1. Problem: Gungans. Not Jar Jar, I liked Jar Jar, I wanted to see him mature in the later movies (see bash below). In the battle scene there need to be more Gungans have Force Pikes and they still hold off the Federation Droids, mostly.
Solution: Gungans with Blasters in addition to their Blaster Shields and Force Pikes.
2. Problem: C-3PO. I liked "Droids" a lot and in that series he's like 110 years old. In TPM, he is built by Anakin.
Solution: Have Anakin REBUILD him from the scrap heap. The core is still 3PO but much else is Anakin's work. I personally hold these two are not mutually exclusive, but I want it made explicitly so.
3. Problem: Anakin. I would rag endlessly on the 'Virgin Birth,' as only one man has ever come from a Virgin Birth and his Dad was God. However, due to later revelations, I'll drop that one. Winning the Boonta Eve Classic was awesome. Ani's the pimp! Blowing up the Battleship is intolerable. One, he's nine goddamn years old! One really cool feat per movie, thank you. Then it was all "an accident," *cough*Bull$h!^*cough*
Solution: Have the Battleship destroyed in a more sensible way, like the Alderaani fleet shows up and knocks the Hell out of it. Remember, the Alderaani don't become pacifists until the end of the Clone Wars. That's not EU, that's the only possible way to interpret Leia's comments in ANH.
Attack of the Clones
My opinion: Still suffers from uneven awesome and suck, but less so than Phantom Menace. All and all, the plot is great, but there are some holes.
1. Problem: So little Jar Jar: I don't want to see the Jar Jar of ten years ago. He's in the spotlight now and hopefully he's grown in it. Taking him out was fanservice of the lowest sort. This character is NOT beyond redemption and he did NOT ruin Phantom Menace.
Solution: one or two extra scenes where we see WHY he is in position to motion for the creation of the Grand Army of the Republic. Show him as less clumsy and more mature and a lot of the Jar Jar hate will disappear. My defense is not based on excessive love for the character, he's basically an Ebonic C-3PO, but because he doesn't deserve it.
2. Problem: Opposition to the creation of the Army. I want an explanation; no government can function without Armed services. The Republic is NOT like the U.N. where every tin pot despot criticizes the U.S. for being Imperialist while they rape and torture their own citizens for pleasure. The Republic is a country, it is a state, it is a GOVERMENT. That the Republic survived the 1000 years since the Ruussan Reformation is a common miracle:
Solution: I want, from Padme, a very convincing speech on why the Army is a bad idea. It must include why she believes the pre-Ruussan Reformation Republic was unwise to have a military for 24,000 years. History of abuse, oppression, ineffectiveness, etc are good arguments.
3. Problem: Reason for CIS separation is never given.
Solution: I want reasons, AND I want to know what the Constitutionality of separation is, AND I want examples from the Republic's past. I doubt this has not happened before in the Republic's 25,000 years of existence. If Human domination of the Republic is a factor, like many have suggested, fine, but then why is the human Dooku given command? That Sidous wanted it so is not sufficient, technically Sidous doesn't exist.
4. Problem: Anakin bonds with Palpatine, but not enough.
Solution: Palpatine needs to bond with Anakin so his treason to the Jedi can be seen as plausible, and unfortunately foreseen. It's vital that Palpatine come off more as Anakin's friend and mentor that he really, truly cares for him, even if we know he doesn't.
5. Problem: The Romance
Solution: Let me state for the record, I don't give a $H!T what Lucas wants on this because he's a retard when it comes to romance. The Romance is entirely implausible. People do get hitched off the bat, they do it in Vegas, and their careers aren't threatened, and they usually get a Vegas divorce within 48 hours (see Britney Spears). Lucas confuses the LUST Padme and Anakin obviously have for each other with LOVE. Love takes time, and love takes effort. My mom has always told me you have to move past lust to love, though lust should always be there.
Anakin and Padme NEED to bond over those 10 years. They need to care about each other, they need to LIKE each other, and there's never real affection between them and that's why the dialogue is so wooden. They don't really know each other. It's fake, and you can only fake so much. The deluge needs to be re-written, that is true, but if raw passion is replaced by genuine affection, I think the dialogue will write itself.
AND let me state, I don't care if Lucas' playbook is "Hero With a Thousand Faces." Good for him, really, but that has to be the STARTING POINT, not the end. Lando is real, Luke is real, Leia is real, Han is real, and they are real because they diverge from the archetype and become their own character. Anakin is not: he stays so close to the archetype he's basically a robot at times. The Romance offers this chance because it's where he comes off most like Pinocchio.
Revenge of the Sith
My opinion: This puppy is by FAR the best of the Trilogy. It is F***ing awesome! It only needs cosmetic touch ups, some that will connect it better to the EU and OT. Jar Jar could use a bigger part, but he really doesn't need it.
1. Problem: War weariness. The Republic is on the brink. Of Victory or collapse. We need to show things.
Solution: Show Alderaan, while fighting all over the galaxy, is entering a period of pacifistic isolation. Could be Bail talking about anti-war protests or something. There are two things that need to be shown. First is that the one million strong clone army isn't enough to pacify one planet, much less fight an intergalactic war. They can be the spearhead, and they should be, but local governments need to be shown supplying the Republic war effort in both ships and soldiers. And almost certainly the Grand Army of the Republic is mostly composed of regular conscripts/volunteers. The Republic Navy should be entirely non-clone. There needs to be non-Jedi Generals, and reminders that battle deaths are appalling and sapping morale, while the Confederacy is rapidly losing ground. Think America circa 1864 in the Civil War. Perhaps people are hoping for a new and better day after the war, making wide acceptance of the new Empire more plausible.
2. Problem: Reasons for Anakin's betrayal. I don't mind the Padme dying thing, in fact it should be the MAIN reason. But not all, not by a long shot. First, Palpatine is his friend, and even after he reveals himself, he still is. Anakin needs to be more pained about this, or more willing to go along with the Chancellor's ideas because he has faith in the man. The way he callously offers to overthrow Palpatine if Padme wishes suits a veteran Sith. Here he's only been Vader for 24-48 hours. And he wants power, he says so himself, that needs to be played up. Because as it is Obi-Wan's claim that Anakin has betrayed them for anger and power simply aren't true.
Solution: Palpatine needs to hint at his ambitions in such a way that Anakin will agree with them without knowing there full ramifications. After he turns, there needs to be a feeling of trust between Palpatine and Anakin, however misplaced, based on the old friendship. Palpatine needs to emphasize the relationship to Anakin as: friend, mentor, confidant and perhaps even biological father. Anakin needs to defend Palpatine to Padme on Mustafar, as the best hope for the galaxy and that the Republic failed long before Palpatine had any power, something she knows all too well. And I cannot emphasize enough how important the last part is. Anakin has three reasons in the films as they stand to support Palpatine: he stated he does not believe the Republic functions, he wants power, and he wants to save Padme. He has legitimate reasons to support the New Order, and those should be addressed, even as a rebuke from Padme or Obi-Wan. It makes that much more tragic that Anakin is earnestly sacrificing himself for the wrong cause, a factor that really should have been addressed in the OT more.
3. Problem: Padme's death. First, Leia in ROTJ states she remembers her mother. Now we have to say it was Bail's wife or even more implausibly, Leia remembers her birth, and even though I'm willing to accept a lot, that's not one of those.
Solution: Have Padme live, but have Luke taken to Tatooine, and Padme gives up Leia to Bail but is in his Court until she dies a few years later, of a broken heart. Make it clear post birth that Padme is devastated beyond words and will never, NEVER recover.
4. Problem: The Great Weapon. Lucas says the Great Weapon seen at the end of Sith is the first Death Star. This is Lucas being a retard again. It takes 19 years to take a half-built Genosian space station and turn it into the Death Star, but Death Star II only takes 18 months. Get outta here!
Solution:
(Tarkin, Palpatine and Vader all look at the Great Weapon, enter scientist)
Scientist: Excuse me, your majesty, we've completed our survey of the Separatist weapon, and I can give you a full report.
Emperor: Do so.
Scientist: Well...(scratches head) Basically, the whole thing is about to collapse in on itself.
Tarkin: What do you mean?
Scientist: It's fine now, but if we add anymore to the superstructure, it'll go poof! No more weapon. In addition, we've run some calculations, and if there's even a slight back draft in the superlaser, it'll blow the station seven ways from Kessel.
Emperor: Can you fix it?
Scientist: Yes, Yes we certainly can, but it'll take time and a lot of experimenting...
Emperor: I'm glad to hear that. You will be most useful to MY New Order. What is your name, so I might properly...reward you for your effort
Scientist: (bows slightly) Lemelisk. Bevel Lemelisk.
And a general criticism of the Prequels: Not enough Alderaan. If we see a lot of Alderaan, it's beauty and majesty, and see it as an important place, the sense of tragedy becomes more intense, as we see how truly wonton and evil Tarkin's act was.
The Phantom Menace
My overall opinion: Far, FAR too widely maligned. It was a rocking good show, most of it. But the bad parts CRIPPLE the experience, but all and all it could be a MUCH better movie, to the point it would be considered GOOD by the general public with a little editing. I'm satisfied with the acting, only Shatner in the original Star Trek will irk me, and even then, not a lot. I haven't seen the movie since '99, but my facts should hold:
1. Problem: Gungans. Not Jar Jar, I liked Jar Jar, I wanted to see him mature in the later movies (see bash below). In the battle scene there need to be more Gungans have Force Pikes and they still hold off the Federation Droids, mostly.
Solution: Gungans with Blasters in addition to their Blaster Shields and Force Pikes.
2. Problem: C-3PO. I liked "Droids" a lot and in that series he's like 110 years old. In TPM, he is built by Anakin.
Solution: Have Anakin REBUILD him from the scrap heap. The core is still 3PO but much else is Anakin's work. I personally hold these two are not mutually exclusive, but I want it made explicitly so.
3. Problem: Anakin. I would rag endlessly on the 'Virgin Birth,' as only one man has ever come from a Virgin Birth and his Dad was God. However, due to later revelations, I'll drop that one. Winning the Boonta Eve Classic was awesome. Ani's the pimp! Blowing up the Battleship is intolerable. One, he's nine goddamn years old! One really cool feat per movie, thank you. Then it was all "an accident," *cough*Bull$h!^*cough*
Solution: Have the Battleship destroyed in a more sensible way, like the Alderaani fleet shows up and knocks the Hell out of it. Remember, the Alderaani don't become pacifists until the end of the Clone Wars. That's not EU, that's the only possible way to interpret Leia's comments in ANH.
Attack of the Clones
My opinion: Still suffers from uneven awesome and suck, but less so than Phantom Menace. All and all, the plot is great, but there are some holes.
1. Problem: So little Jar Jar: I don't want to see the Jar Jar of ten years ago. He's in the spotlight now and hopefully he's grown in it. Taking him out was fanservice of the lowest sort. This character is NOT beyond redemption and he did NOT ruin Phantom Menace.
Solution: one or two extra scenes where we see WHY he is in position to motion for the creation of the Grand Army of the Republic. Show him as less clumsy and more mature and a lot of the Jar Jar hate will disappear. My defense is not based on excessive love for the character, he's basically an Ebonic C-3PO, but because he doesn't deserve it.
2. Problem: Opposition to the creation of the Army. I want an explanation; no government can function without Armed services. The Republic is NOT like the U.N. where every tin pot despot criticizes the U.S. for being Imperialist while they rape and torture their own citizens for pleasure. The Republic is a country, it is a state, it is a GOVERMENT. That the Republic survived the 1000 years since the Ruussan Reformation is a common miracle:
Solution: I want, from Padme, a very convincing speech on why the Army is a bad idea. It must include why she believes the pre-Ruussan Reformation Republic was unwise to have a military for 24,000 years. History of abuse, oppression, ineffectiveness, etc are good arguments.
3. Problem: Reason for CIS separation is never given.
Solution: I want reasons, AND I want to know what the Constitutionality of separation is, AND I want examples from the Republic's past. I doubt this has not happened before in the Republic's 25,000 years of existence. If Human domination of the Republic is a factor, like many have suggested, fine, but then why is the human Dooku given command? That Sidous wanted it so is not sufficient, technically Sidous doesn't exist.
4. Problem: Anakin bonds with Palpatine, but not enough.
Solution: Palpatine needs to bond with Anakin so his treason to the Jedi can be seen as plausible, and unfortunately foreseen. It's vital that Palpatine come off more as Anakin's friend and mentor that he really, truly cares for him, even if we know he doesn't.
5. Problem: The Romance
Solution: Let me state for the record, I don't give a $H!T what Lucas wants on this because he's a retard when it comes to romance. The Romance is entirely implausible. People do get hitched off the bat, they do it in Vegas, and their careers aren't threatened, and they usually get a Vegas divorce within 48 hours (see Britney Spears). Lucas confuses the LUST Padme and Anakin obviously have for each other with LOVE. Love takes time, and love takes effort. My mom has always told me you have to move past lust to love, though lust should always be there.
Anakin and Padme NEED to bond over those 10 years. They need to care about each other, they need to LIKE each other, and there's never real affection between them and that's why the dialogue is so wooden. They don't really know each other. It's fake, and you can only fake so much. The deluge needs to be re-written, that is true, but if raw passion is replaced by genuine affection, I think the dialogue will write itself.
AND let me state, I don't care if Lucas' playbook is "Hero With a Thousand Faces." Good for him, really, but that has to be the STARTING POINT, not the end. Lando is real, Luke is real, Leia is real, Han is real, and they are real because they diverge from the archetype and become their own character. Anakin is not: he stays so close to the archetype he's basically a robot at times. The Romance offers this chance because it's where he comes off most like Pinocchio.
Revenge of the Sith
My opinion: This puppy is by FAR the best of the Trilogy. It is F***ing awesome! It only needs cosmetic touch ups, some that will connect it better to the EU and OT. Jar Jar could use a bigger part, but he really doesn't need it.
1. Problem: War weariness. The Republic is on the brink. Of Victory or collapse. We need to show things.
Solution: Show Alderaan, while fighting all over the galaxy, is entering a period of pacifistic isolation. Could be Bail talking about anti-war protests or something. There are two things that need to be shown. First is that the one million strong clone army isn't enough to pacify one planet, much less fight an intergalactic war. They can be the spearhead, and they should be, but local governments need to be shown supplying the Republic war effort in both ships and soldiers. And almost certainly the Grand Army of the Republic is mostly composed of regular conscripts/volunteers. The Republic Navy should be entirely non-clone. There needs to be non-Jedi Generals, and reminders that battle deaths are appalling and sapping morale, while the Confederacy is rapidly losing ground. Think America circa 1864 in the Civil War. Perhaps people are hoping for a new and better day after the war, making wide acceptance of the new Empire more plausible.
2. Problem: Reasons for Anakin's betrayal. I don't mind the Padme dying thing, in fact it should be the MAIN reason. But not all, not by a long shot. First, Palpatine is his friend, and even after he reveals himself, he still is. Anakin needs to be more pained about this, or more willing to go along with the Chancellor's ideas because he has faith in the man. The way he callously offers to overthrow Palpatine if Padme wishes suits a veteran Sith. Here he's only been Vader for 24-48 hours. And he wants power, he says so himself, that needs to be played up. Because as it is Obi-Wan's claim that Anakin has betrayed them for anger and power simply aren't true.
Solution: Palpatine needs to hint at his ambitions in such a way that Anakin will agree with them without knowing there full ramifications. After he turns, there needs to be a feeling of trust between Palpatine and Anakin, however misplaced, based on the old friendship. Palpatine needs to emphasize the relationship to Anakin as: friend, mentor, confidant and perhaps even biological father. Anakin needs to defend Palpatine to Padme on Mustafar, as the best hope for the galaxy and that the Republic failed long before Palpatine had any power, something she knows all too well. And I cannot emphasize enough how important the last part is. Anakin has three reasons in the films as they stand to support Palpatine: he stated he does not believe the Republic functions, he wants power, and he wants to save Padme. He has legitimate reasons to support the New Order, and those should be addressed, even as a rebuke from Padme or Obi-Wan. It makes that much more tragic that Anakin is earnestly sacrificing himself for the wrong cause, a factor that really should have been addressed in the OT more.
3. Problem: Padme's death. First, Leia in ROTJ states she remembers her mother. Now we have to say it was Bail's wife or even more implausibly, Leia remembers her birth, and even though I'm willing to accept a lot, that's not one of those.
Solution: Have Padme live, but have Luke taken to Tatooine, and Padme gives up Leia to Bail but is in his Court until she dies a few years later, of a broken heart. Make it clear post birth that Padme is devastated beyond words and will never, NEVER recover.
4. Problem: The Great Weapon. Lucas says the Great Weapon seen at the end of Sith is the first Death Star. This is Lucas being a retard again. It takes 19 years to take a half-built Genosian space station and turn it into the Death Star, but Death Star II only takes 18 months. Get outta here!
Solution:
(Tarkin, Palpatine and Vader all look at the Great Weapon, enter scientist)
Scientist: Excuse me, your majesty, we've completed our survey of the Separatist weapon, and I can give you a full report.
Emperor: Do so.
Scientist: Well...(scratches head) Basically, the whole thing is about to collapse in on itself.
Tarkin: What do you mean?
Scientist: It's fine now, but if we add anymore to the superstructure, it'll go poof! No more weapon. In addition, we've run some calculations, and if there's even a slight back draft in the superlaser, it'll blow the station seven ways from Kessel.
Emperor: Can you fix it?
Scientist: Yes, Yes we certainly can, but it'll take time and a lot of experimenting...
Emperor: I'm glad to hear that. You will be most useful to MY New Order. What is your name, so I might properly...reward you for your effort
Scientist: (bows slightly) Lemelisk. Bevel Lemelisk.
And a general criticism of the Prequels: Not enough Alderaan. If we see a lot of Alderaan, it's beauty and majesty, and see it as an important place, the sense of tragedy becomes more intense, as we see how truly wonton and evil Tarkin's act was.