Attack of the Clowns

[Darth Badly]

Attack of the Clowns has the worst dialogue in any film I’ve seen in years. *It manages to mess up more of the Star Wars universe. *It’s a shoddy shockingly bad piece of film making. *It’s got a love story with such silly scenes that the audience I saw it with were just laughing at it. *It’s got a story that’s just full of holes and just doesn’t make much sense. *

For example: * *

If 10,000 star systems want to leave the Republic then so what? *
* What’s so bad about that? *Why not let them leave? *Isn't that their democratic right?
* Why must there be a war? *You surely don't have a war to stop people leaving a democratic organisation? *

* If Chris Lee / Count Duckula is really working for the future Emperor then why tell Obi Wan the truth about there being evil in the senate??? *This is ridiculous – as is Yoda dismissing the entire idea as him trying to spread paranoia. *Surely the Emperor would kick Duckula's behind? *

* Why does the future emperor think that if he puts a dark hood on then no one will know who he is? *Why does this work? *Why does he bother with this silly Superman/Clerk Kent identity swap when anyone who sees him as Darth will instantly recognise him as the chancellor?

* Given that the future emperor now has ultimate power anyway what is the point in trying to manipulate people into a war? *(If that's indeed what he's doing?) *Since the future emperor is the most powerful man in the universe anyway AND is widely liked and trusted, why on earth blow it all and become the most hated man? *Why not just flipping enjoy it?

* Who ordered that clone army in the first place? *If Count Duckula ordered it then how come there’s no reaction when it’s used against him? *And if he did order it, then why create an army of robots as well?
Who hid that whole solar system of the Grey cloning aliens and how and why? *How come no one flew into the hidden sun over the last ten years? * Surely moving to a new planet would have been a better idea than cloaking an entire solar system which any three year old could work out was still there. *(Although not Obi Dimbo Wan it seems.)
How come no one noticed given that the fatty alien who helps out Obi Wan can't be the only one who's heard of the grey aliens. *How were the grey alien cloners paid? *And by whom? *
And MOST OF ALL, why in God’s name didn't the grey aliens get in touch with someone over the ten years? *It is utterly ridiculous that they would be working away for an entire decade without once checking to see what was happening or making any kind of contact with the people they were working for. *What if the people who ordered the clone army were all dead?

Why chose an unstable bounty hunter who's not very good at his job and gets killed real easy (here and again in Return of the Jedi) as your model for one million fighting clones? *(Actually, given that all Stormtroopers die real easy and are terrible shots - perhaps this is one thing that does make sense - although WHY is another matter.) * Having chosen him why let him go on dodgy missions where he can leave clues that will allow people to find you after ten years of careful hiding?
*
Why hasn't the Republic got a proper bloody army in the first place? * Surely there must be some real people willing to serve?
* Why are there seemingly only about 30 Jedi knights in the whole galaxy available for the final battle at the end???
* Why are the Jedi so short in numbers in the first place?
* Why is the 'force unbalanced' and what the heck is that supposed to mean??? *

* Why can just anybody (Yoda) turn up and assume command of the clone army? *All Obi Wan needed when he turned up was a good Jedi Knight costume available at any good fancy dress shop?

Why is there just one funny joke (Obi Wan’s line about ‘Death Sticks’) in 140 minutes of film? *Why has the charm and wit of the original films been replaced by horrible computer graphics and soulless war games.

* Why does Yoda and the Jedi counsel spend all their time in one small room at the top of a horrible skyscraper?

* How and why is the very obviously evil future Emperor able to disguise his very clearly evil intentions? *How and why is he allowed to remain in office as Chancellor seemingly forever, when Princess Portman was only allowed to be Queen of Naboo for two terms. *
And anyway, why did the idiots on Naboo elect a queen so young and inexperienced as her? *Surely on the entire planet there must have been someone better?
*
Why can't Yoda or anyone even get a fleeting feeling that the Chancellor is pure evil - even when they already know that there are Dark Lords out there? *AND still can't even at the end when Obi Wan has been directly warned by Count Duckula?
*
Why did they make a big point of saying - that only a really brave senator would propose giving the future emperor extra powers and then when JarJarTosser Binks does so he is immediately clapped as a hero by everyone like it what everyone wanted all along? *
*
Why is Count Duckula holding secret meetings with such really important and interesting people as the losers from the trade federation, the National Institute of Librarians, and the Nation Union of Estate Agents? *What the heck have they got to do with anything? *

Why does R2D2 push C3PO on to that conveyer belt in the droid factory? *(Other than to start yet another poorly directed set piece that’s more like a video game than a film, of course.)
*
Why is Princess Portman so important in things given that although pretty in photographs she has no charm or sex appeal? *
If the future emperor wants her dead why not poison her coffee or something? *Why get Count Duckula to hire the idiot bounty hunter / assassin Fett who then hires a silly girl assassin to try and kill her in the very building where the future emperor is staying anyway. *Isn't this taking subcontracting a little too far? *(And of course it’s this terrible idea that leads to Obi Wan eventually finding the clone army.)
*
Why doesn't Darth Vader recognise C3PO in the original trilogy? *Why doesn't C3PO recognise Vader as the maker? * If C3PO has his memory wiped at the end of Episode III then all character development here is meaningless.
*
Why do you have to have a chase through an asteroid belt and a Skywalker getting their hand cut off, just because it's the middle film in a trilogy? *
*
Why doesn't Darth Vader show any sense of having been to Tatoonie before in the opening of Star Wars? *He must surely hate the place? *It’s not true to say that the identity of Anakin is entirely lost to him because if it was Luke being his son would mean nothing to him and is clearly (in Empire) means a lot.

* If young Anakin loves his mother so much that he has wet dreams about her being banged by Sand People then how come he hasn't visited her in 10 flipping years? *That's a bit slack isn't it? *He and Obi Wan have been all over the galaxy - they must have been back near Tatoonine. *Surely he must have had a weekend off? *Why hasn't he even bothered to communicate with her via one of those holographic things? *What no cards on mothers day?

* Why is Yoda just computer cartoon now instead of a poorly operated muppet?

* Why is he suddenly happy to command SS style Nazi clones into battle? *
Why isn’t Yoda smart enough to work out it’s a bad thing?
* Why has George lost his mind?
* Why must we suffer this badly written nonsense???

[Teek]

Why must you ask so many pointless questions?

Some of those questions are matters of style, but many of them are answered in the movie itself... I'm not sure why you're making many of the assumptions you are. Kamino wasn't cloaked, it's record was merely removed from the archives. Ever heard of the American civil war? Sometimes keeping a democracy together for the right reasons is worth the fight. That's actually an interesting question though, should the Republic have fought to keep itself together? It's not as flipant a question as you make it out to be. And Dooku knows about the clone army, if you watch the movie you find out he helped create it and the whole point is to have the Republic Army fight the seperatists, to further Palpatines control of the universe when he will be needed as absolute ruler to make the needed decisions. Watching his powerplay is one of the most fascinating things about the Prequels. Everything that happens is usually caused by him, or he uses it to his favor. That makes his overconfidence in ROTJ all the more powerful. (He really COULD manipulate people and get what he wanted, now we know why he was so confident) When did C-3PO and Vader sit down to hold a chat? Last time Anakin saw 3PO he was probably grey. I would say 9 out of 10 of the questions you posted can be answered by actually WATCHING the movies and making logical reasoning, not being critical for the sake of being critical. You're so blindly critical it just serves to weaken your argument that AOTC is a bad movie.

[Darth Badly]

Come on be sensible. It's obvious that Darth Vader doesn't have to sit down for a chat with C3PO to be able to recognise him. They don't know each other for the simple reason that Uncle George makes up this nonsense as he goes along. Hence the Luke snogging his sister thing, Ben lying to Luke about what happened to his dad then trying to wriggle out of it in Jedi, and all the other nonsense in the new film that I've tried to draw to the viewers attention in my post.
All the questions are valid.
It's also worth saying that from the reactions of normal people I know that have seen it (ie people that have seen the other films but wouldn't call themselves fans) hardly anyone understands the big plot. Not because it's hidden in mystery in an exciting way, but because it's confused and silly.

[Darth Badly]

Quote: "Sometimes keeping a democracy together for the right reasons is worth the fight. That's actually an interesting question though, should the Republic have fought to keep itself together? It's not as flipant a question as you make it out to be."

I wasn't being flippant at all. As you kind of admit its a very valid point. How would you justify not letting planets leave a democratic organisation if they want to? You refer to the civil war by the issues there were slavery - something worth fighting over. The issue hear has been vaguely explained only that the other folks want to leave. Since this underpins the entire first (ie new) trilogy its rather an important point, don't you think?
I wasn't being flippant. These last two films are a cancer at the heart of the original trilogy.

[padmehlc]

? You surely don't have a war to stop people leaving a democratic organisation?

As you kind of admit its a very valid point. How would you justify not letting planets leave a democratic organisation if they want to? You refer to the civil war by the issues there were slavery - something worth fighting over. The issue hear has been vaguely explained only that the other folks want to leave.

True there were other issues to the Civil War but the main fact is - they WERE TRYING to work those out at a bargaining table and even Lincoln said that he ONLY Freed ALL the Slaves BECAUSE they broke the union - he wasn't going to - just RESTRICT more strongly the territories from becoming NEW slave states - the War in it's immediate cause to actually fight with Arms not just words was nearly 100% I'd even say 95% minimum because the South Dared break the Federation and then attack Fort Sumter - because it was on "Thier" territory - that was the only reason we went to Arms - States Rights Vs the good of the Whole - and as we all know the WHOLE won. To break a Democracy is in a way to destroy it - it no longer functions properly with any of it's parts missing - and all suffer - I would call it a very good reason for most people to start a war - we were not the only ones to do so - many historical wars started with the end of a Democracy like that - either to keep it together or get as much of the land from it as possible to "recreate" your new State.


As for the rest I agree with Teek the answers are all there - and the ones that aren't yet we just have to be patient - we still have another 140 minutes or so to the story - things will be more clear in 3 years....

As for the 3PO Vader thing - who says Vader DIDN'T recognize him? For all we know he could have just not cared - 3PO was obviously sold many times I doubt Vader would automatically make the connection just cause he was there - If I were him I'd just assume someone on board just happened to buy that one - not to meantion there are alot of identicalish proticol droids floating around out there - we even SEE another when he follows it into the room on Bespin and not forgetting the one on hte Viceroy's ship in TPM - for all we know Vader has seen enough protocol droids that he just disregards thjem - he wouldn't be looking for 3PO so he jsut looks him over as another one of those droids - not important. As for 3PO not recognizing him - well Vader certainly doesn't LOOK at ALL LIKE ANAKIN! How could you recognize someone as someone when they no longer look anything like what they did before? He recognizes him in AOTC as he's only grown up - and you can see the little kid in people you know really well even years later but he doesn't have X-Ray vision - he's jsut a droid he can't see Anakin under the mask - and we don't know if he ever learned that that is what happened to his maker.

[NelsonCoressel]

3PO is JUST A ROBOT! What's to recognize? He was in pieces and wearing a different skin by Episode 5 anyway. And we see lots of similar-looking protocol droids throughout the story. In fact, we see several in TPM before we see the unfinished 3PO.

Anyway, many of the questions posted by the originator of this topic certainly are valid, but in a "I'm here to convice you it's a piece of ####" sort of way.

I was actually suprised at how good the dialogue was in AOTC! There are parts of ESB that make me cringe more than AOTC.

I think people have put all of Star Wars on an untouchable peak that they won't allow themselves to lower. ALL of the Star Wars movies are silly. All of them have goofy, illogical actions. All of them are a bit of fun with a dash of mythology and classic movie references thrown in. That's the charm.
I fail to see how AOTC is any worse than the others in the series.

[Darth Badly]

Well thanks for admitting that. You seem to be the only person here prepared to admit that it might not be perfect. In fact the reason for the original post sounding like its trying to convince readers was that I simply could not believe how positive the reviews were here. OK, look Attack of the Clowns is not quite as hopeless as The P Menace but it's not much better.
I'm not very concerned with Darth recognising C3PO or not really because we all know the simple reason he doesn't is that the other films were made first - and that George hadn't worked things out nearly as well as he'd like us all to believe.

However, loads of my original questions are important and highlight some very poor decisions taken by Uncle George in the new films.

Why on earth did the Clown Army have to be grown by hidden grey aliens? Why not (for example) a CIA type hidden clone factory within the Republic under the secret control of the bad guys? Why are the new scripts so bloody humourless? Why are they both such soulless, by-the-numbers efforts at film making. I think the two new films show that Star Wars (the original) was the fluke in George's career and that Howard the Duck is about his average score and the true level of his talent.

[Tovor]

Darth Badly, your willingness to contemplate and think out the reasoning of an actually serious and conspiracy-revealing plot is, well, badly shown. If the name fits, go with it, right?

Why must there be a war? You surely don't have a war to stop people leaving a democratic organisation?
The Seperatists were building an army in order to, as Dooku said, "Hold the Republic for a ransom", or something to that effect. Obi-Wan overhead that meeting while spying on them and reported back to the Chancellor and Jedi Council that the Seperatists were preparing for war with the Droid Manufacturing plant on Geonosis. That was why the Republic launched its war on Geonosis, to wipe out the Seperatists' ability on that planet to threaten the peace of the Republic.

If Chris Lee / Count Duckula is really working for the future Emperor then why tell Obi Wan the truth about there being evil in the senate???
This is an excellent question that is leading us in other threads to discuss it to a greater degree. Possible answer #1: Dooku wanted OBi-Wan to trust and join him to help him kill and take Sideous' control and use it himself. Possible answer #2: Dooku and/or Sideous wanted to throw the Jedi Council into confusion and paranoia by leaking that bit of info.
This is ridiculous – as is Yoda dismissing the entire idea as him trying to spread paranoia.
Not at all. As I just said, I think that was the plan. Cause confusion and paranoia; and by Yoda assuming that was his intent all along, the charge is dismissed and they don't suspect the Senate or above all the Supreme Chancellor. If you appear to be a liar and accuse a criminal of being a criminal, then nobody will believe that the criminal is guilty. Get it?

Why does the future emperor think that if he puts a dark hood on then no one will know who he is? Why does this work? Why does he bother with this silly Superman/Clerk Kent identity swap when anyone who sees him as Darth will instantly recognise him as the chancellor?
But who else but Dooku, another Darth, and the foolish Trade Feds have seen Sideous in his hood? Nobody else, that's who, and that's why the disguise works.

Given that the future emperor now has ultimate power anyway what is the point in trying to manipulate people into a war? (If that's indeed what he's doing?) Since the future emperor is the most powerful man in the universe anyway AND is widely liked and trusted, why on earth blow it all and become the most hated man? Why not just flipping enjoy it?
You refer to him as the future emperor, but at this point in the prequels that role is not yet definate and final. He cannot become the future emperor unless he carries out his current plans to gain the war powers that a Chancellor is denied without a major Senate vote. We do not yet know what the term length of a Supreme Chancellor is, so Palpatine may be looking to ensure that his time as king of the hill does not run out. Plus, he does not love democracy nor the Republic. He loves power and control. He does not care about being widely liked and trusted, he wants to be widely feared and in complete control of everything. Plus, he is confined to the (rather spacious) office of Chancellor. He wants his mansions and villas and slave harems. He does not want to be the President of the U.S., he wants to be the endulging power loving Emperor of the Roman Empire. Does standing in the Senate surrounded by senators thrill him, or standing at his window watching the air traffic go by with people who do not fear and live in submission to him thrill him? No, but standing at the balcony at the end of the film like Adolph Hitler watching his, yes, HIS, armies and warships in formation preparing to launch and wage war for his benefit...that is what thrills him.

Who ordered that clone army in the first place? If Count Duckula ordered it then how come there’s no reaction when it’s used against him? And if he did order it, then why create an army of robots as well?
There is another thread to discuss who Sifa Dyas was so I won't venture a guess here. But Dooku knew about the Clone army, as did Palpatine, long before Obi-Wan discovered it. The Senate would not have voted for a Republic army unless there was an absolute need for one to protect the otherwise unthreatened Republic. And the Seperatists with the droid armies provided the threat that Palpatine needed to convince the Senate to give him war powers. And then, when it was most needed, there was an army ready and able to serve Palpatine to protect the Republic, so he got to use it. Dooku knew about the Clone army that was being prepared in secret to serve his Master, he just wasn't expecting it to show up when it did to attack Geonosis. The Trade Feds and the Geonosians were all pawns used to render the Clone army necessary, and Dooku left them to suffer the onslaught of the advancing Clones while he went to be praised by his Master. He told his Master Sideous, "Good news, my lord, war has begun", and Sideous replied, "Everything is proceeding as planned." So Dooku knew full well what was planned and what was happening, and the Geonosians and Trade Feds who were promised victory by him would eventually suffer defeat while Palpatine gains everything. And this is how a Chancellor controlled by the Senate vote and held back from his personal desires, managed to become Emperor and all powerful. You said a few times, Darth Badly, he is the future emperor. Yes he will be, but not unless he can pull off what is happening in Episode II and III.

Who hid that whole solar system of the Grey cloning aliens and how and why? How come no one flew into the hidden sun over the last ten years?
I believe Teek explained this very well so I won't d it again.
How come no one noticed given that the fatty alien who helps out Obi Wan can't be the only one who's heard of the grey aliens.
The galaxy is a very big place, you know, and I'm sure no one without extensive charts can keep track of every single planet and species in the galaxy. And, as Dexter told Obi-Wan in the diner, Kamino was outside the Republic. Thus, the Kaminoans would not even have a senator representing them in the Senate. Obi figured his friend might know something since he had spent many years prospecting beyond the edges of the established Republic perimeters.

How were the grey alien cloners paid? And by whom? And MOST OF ALL, why in God’s name didn't the grey aliens get in touch with someone over the ten years?
Good question, but perhaps they were already so wealthy that they were willing to wait 10 or more years for payment by an establishment as trustworthy as the great Republic. Perhaps they enjoy their solitude and would not have allowed any visitors anyway, except for a Jedi they thought was representing the Jedi Master who commissioned them. Maybe they have such long lifespans that 10 years was a small amount of time for them and not so long as we consider it. So for them there was plenty of patience in wait of payment and delivery.

Why hasn't the Republic got a proper bloody army in the first place? Surely there must be some real people willing to serve?
A good question which I had wondered about for years, having so long wanted to see Republic fleets going against enemy fleets like the Star Trek Federation warring against Klingons or Borg. But by now I've realized that it is because of the Senate meetings and votes which usually manage to avoid conflicts between worlds and systems. And there were the Jedi to enforce peace and justice when conflicts arose. So until the current threat of the Seperatists there apparently has not been a need for an army.

Why are there seemingly only about 30 Jedi knights in the whole galaxy available for the final battle at the end???
Why are the Jedi so short in numbers in the first place?
I went into this in the "Things You Noticed in AOTC" thread. Perhaps you should read that thread and other discussions to get some idea rather than writing such a long list of complaints that I somehow feel I have to fill you in on. The Jedi were spread across the galaxy on countless other missions and could not be recalled and used at a moments notice. There were only a certain amount of Jedi available on Coruscant at the time so they were all utilized. There were far more than 30 in the arena, since after many were killed there were roughly about 25 at least surrounded by droids in the last stand before the Clone ships arrived. According to Teek and info he quoted, there were 200 Jedi brought to fight in the arena mission to save Obi-Wan.

Why is the 'force unbalanced' and what the heck is that supposed to mean???
The Force requires harmony and peace to be in balance, just as the Jedi needs to be passive and at peace to use it (accroding to Yoda in TESB). When evil beings such as the Sith use the Force for means in contrast to goodness and peace, the Force is disrupted and those who are attuned to the good side of the Force can feel that disruption. LIke ripples in a pond. When at peace the water is flat and undisturbed, but when the violence of a rock or other falling object disrupts it, ripples are sent out in all directions, and other living beings floating peacefully atop the surface can feel that disruption. In the SW story, the more power the evil Sith attain and the more evil they prepare and carry out, the more the ripples grow and spread, until they are like crashing waves. The only way then to bring balance back to the Force is to eliminate the powerful force causing the disruption to the harmony of the Force. At the end of ROTJ, Anakin drove the dark side out of him and returned to the good side of the Force, and destroyed the Sith Master who had caused the imbalance in the first place. And that is what brings the Force back into balance, when the dark side manipulator was deprived of his ability to disrupt the harmony of the tranquil Force.

Why is there just one funny joke (Obi Wan’s line about ‘Death Sticks’) in 140 minutes of film?
Oh ye of little sense of humor. I guess its just a matter or personal taste. I for one do not look for humor nor care for it in SW, since I prefer serious drama and conflict. But I thought 3PO at the last part of AOTC was an instigator of quite a few laughs from myself and the audience around me when I saw the film.

Why does Yoda and the Jedi counsel spend all their time in one small room at the top of a horrible skyscraper?
Why does the American Congress spend so much time in the Capital dome discussing laws and policy? Why does the U.S. president spend so much time in the Oval Office meeting with his staff? Why does, for your sake, the British leaders spend so much time in Parliament Hall (is that what it's called?) in meetings? The Jedi Council room seemed a big round room, but why is the skyscraper horrible?

How and why is the very obviously evil future Emperor able to disguise his very clearly evil intentions? How and why is he allowed to remain in office as Chancellor seemingly forever, when Princess Portman was only allowed to be Queen of Naboo for two terms.
ROTFLMAO. Please tell me how a princess served as Queen? And, "Princess Portman"? Amidala was never a princess, she was a queen in movie one, a senator in movie two. Why say Princess Portman with the actress's name rather than the character? Are you making note of Natalie's heritage and calling her a Jewish-American-Princess?

Why do you have to have a chase through an asteroid belt and a Skywalker getting their hand cut off, just because it's the middle film in a trilogy?
Did you not pay any attention to ROTJ, when Luke observed his father's severed hand, and released that his father had lost his hand the same way, and that he was becoming just like him? I knew then, 19 years ago when I saw that movie, that Anakin Skywalker had lost his hand in battle, and fully expected to see it happen in the prequels. The hand-losing scene in AOTC was not to copy the hand-losing scene in TESB, it was meant to explain the significance that Luke realized at the end of ROTJ.

Why doesn't Darth Vader show any sense of having been to Tatoonie before in the opening of Star Wars? He must surely hate the place?
This is a subject we have had a lot of enjoyment over discussing rather than critisizing. Perhaps the pain he felt at losing his mother caused him to dread thinking about Tatooine at all.

If young Anakin loves his mother so much that he has wet dreams about her being banged by Sand People
Now this is quite sick. Is that what you percieved by Anakin's fears of his mother's fate?

then how come he hasn't visited her in 10 flipping years? That's a bit slack isn't it? He and Obi Wan have been all over the galaxy - they must have been back near Tatoonine. Surely he must have had a weekend off? Why hasn't he even bothered to communicate with her via one of those holographic things? What no cards on mothers day?
The Jedi do not allow contact with former lives and emotional attatchments. Yoda indicated that to Anakin in TPM, as he also did to Luke in TESB when Luke wanted to end his training to save his friends. Anakin was a mere padawan, so he could not leave his Master during the 10 years. He wanted to become a Knight so he could go off on his own and save his mother. So he felt that it was taking too long to become a Knight, which is partly why he was angry at his Master and blamed Obi-Wan for holding him back, after his mother had died. And, there is no Hallmark in the Republic.

Why is Yoda just computer cartoon now instead of a poorly operated muppet?
How in the world could you manage a lightsaber duel using a muppet?

Why is he suddenly happy to command SS style Nazi clones into battle? Why isn’t Yoda smart enough to work out it’s a bad thing?
#1, because he thought the army was needed to eliminate the threat, and without it the Seperatists and their droid armies would have wiped out the Jedi on Geonosis and caused death and destruction to others in the Republic.
#2, He did figure it out. When the Clone trooper told him the droid army was retreating, didn't you see Yoda appear suddenly downcast and possibly regretful, as if he was just realizing what kind of power the new army could yield for a formerly peaceful Republic? Did you not notice how downcast and contemplative he was during the last meeting with Obi-Wan and Mace Windu? Obi-Wan commented about how fortunate it was that the Clone army had been there, and Yoda corrected him indicating that it was not a victory but that the shroud of the dark side had fallen. I think at that point that Yoda was realizing that he was a mere puppet being controlled by the strings of the Dark Lord of the Sith.

Why must we suffer this badly written nonsense???
What George wrote, or what you wrote? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Smeghead]

"I smell troll, get an ax..."

OR

"Mmm... I *love* the smell of Flamebait in the morning"

[Smeghead]

Also, when you refuse to call something by it's real name, you lose much of your credibility. Basically, you sound like a 10 year old calling someone "Poopy-head"

[Darshia_Lynx]

about vader not recognizing 3p0 and vice-versa,Yes there are practicly countless nembers of proticol droids how can you recognize one if you have been around so many and you havn't seen that particular droid in a long time.As for the 3P0
droid's momory can be erased!!!And if Owen and Beru died in the first film the death star plans and the message to kenobi would have been deleted.Droids memories are deletable!!
And besides.It's just a movie.Why do people try to make it a point in there lives to downgrade something that means so much to people.And of course the plot has holes in it.What movie doesn't?The lines in AotC were good,almost like poetry
George Lucas is deffinatly a master storyteller and I am sure that everyone here agrees with me.
As for people saying this movie was horrible let me ask you this question:Was Spiderman any better?Seriously it was okay but...i dunno boring to watch all the way through.

[Darth Badly]

I called her Princess Portman because her name in the film is so dumb it really doesn't matter what you call her.

Heavens! You guys don't like critisim do you? I dare to criticise the new film and its not long before you resort to the race card implying I made some comment on the actress' background - which I certainly didn't. And also attacking me personally - 'Darth Badly by name' and remarks about writing badly.

Hey guys - notice something here ok? I'm not attacking any of you. I'm just raising some serious questions about a not very good movie.

Questions you're finding rather difficult to answer I can see. Either posters say 'Who cares' - well I do as a paying member of the audience or you use circular logic to fight your corner. Example - no one notices that the chancellor is really Darth under his silly cloak because so few people see him in his disguise and they're all on his side anyway. So what is the point of the disguise then???

Also you kept saying 'IF' he becomes emperor. But the point is that we all know he does. So there is absolutely NO suspense or drama about 'IF' he does.

[Teek]

Darth Badly, personally I think you're just trying to incite some flame posts yourself with the way you phrased some of your questions. If you don't like the movie, that's your right, but I think Tovor answered most of your questions in a clear and easy manner. If those answers don't satisfy you, perhaps you should just skip Ep. III since GL is disappointing you so much.

[NelsonCoressel]

Also you kept saying 'IF' he becomes emperor. But the point is that we all know he does. So there is absolutely NO suspense or drama about 'IF' he does.

It was either Laurence Olivier or John Gielgud who once said that the trick is "to play an Othello or a Macbeth who might NOT go through with it..." That makes it even more dramatic and suspenseful.

What we are seeing now is a set of episodes that shows us what happened before the other movies. One thing that impresses me about both TPM and AOTC is that they don't assume we've already seen the last half of the story. Now that would be crappy storytelling, to say "yeah, yeah, you know this part... move along..."

[haemadroid]

Hmm. I can see what Darth Badly is getting at. I sat through the film in a state of pure puzzlement. I thought the plot was childishly simple but was made to seem complicated by those interminable debates and discussions between the various Jedi which were entirely unnecessary. Mr Lucas has committed the cardinal sin in movie making of 'telling' instead of 'showing'. We poor audoence were told at length what was going on, instead of being shown, on a minor level this meant we were subjected to Annakin's whines (and let's face it that's what they were) about his dreams instead of letting us see those nightmares. It would have been a much stronger film if it had started with that, to convey the angst and fear he was experiencing - whioch surely is what the film was supposed to be dealing with. Other examples include those interminable council meetings where various senators/jedi/whoever go into blah de blah mode whilst spaceship fly past the window. I'm sorry but that does not make for an interesting movie.

I went to this film hoping to be enthralled as I was when I was 13 when I saw "A New Hope" but was so disappointed. Ewoks and men with big headphones on cloud city I could accept but not this. Please can some explain a few things to me?

Firstly, why did the clone army not even look like Jango Fett? When Obi wan saw them eating in the refectory they looked more like the man with the eyepatch than Jango, surely if they were supposed to be a slightly younger version of Jango then all they had to do was use the Jango actor and use a bit of eye liner on him or something, that all added to the confusion.

Whilst Obi Wan is fighting Jango, why did he have to really make an effort to use the force on the doors of the facility instead of just walking up to them and letting them open automatically like they did when he arrived?

Why are the majority of the performances so very poor in the movie? Apart from the superb Christopher Lee it looked like no one was trying or had no idea what they were supposed to be doing.

Why do the people of Naboo vote very young girls to be their queen when there are much more experienced people around only to boot them out after a couple of terms when they're just getting good at it? Besides, wasn't the Brian Blessed voiced character given the leadership at the end of the last film?

Why did I constantly feel as though I was watching a promo for the video game instead of an exciting segment of a great movie?

Why does Yoda pretend to limp and have a stick when he obviously doesn't need to? What pleasure does he derive from impersonating a handicapped creature? Is it to avoid his speeder getting clamped?

Why was Annakin so bothered about Amidala falling prettily on to a sand dune?

Why was his hand replaced with something that looks like it couldn't grab a cuddly toy from a fair ground vending machine? The technology there is so advanced that it can make droids etc but can only come up with a really rubbish fake hand that looks horribly primitive even in our society. That's just ridiculous.

Was anyone else reminded of a similar scene in Galaxy Quest during that over long conveyor belt sequence?

I appreciate that the next film will tie up lots of loose threads but I really do think that this one and the Phantom Menace before it should be able to stand up on their own as individual movies which I don't feel they do. Okay, so what if Sidious is not the same person as Palpatine, merely a clone copy, its a bit late to tell us that in film 3. The audience has given up caring by then.

To sum up, I was very saddened by this movie and have already packed away my posters and other merchandise and consigned them to the Sue Ryder shop up the road. I won't play the soundtracks any more and I've given my C3PO alarm clock to my nephew. I guess that all I can do now is forget about that galaxy long long ago and wait for the Two Towers to come out this christmas (now that's fabulous story telling).

Mr Lucas, you have let me down.

[haemadroid]

oh dear, many apologies but I appear to have sent my last posting twice. Sorry about that.

Incidentally quite a few of the matts in this film were the dodgiest I've ever seen, I was shocked at how sloppy and crude they were. Haven't seen anything that bad since Blake's 7 but at least that show had decent stories and proper characters. (note to self: must dig out my old Liberator model and hang it up where my falcon used to be)

[WhatMeWookie]

Friends

I find this division between Star Wars fandom most distressing...

Just as Senator Palpatine is intent on forcing two sides into conflict that technically he holds in control (a) Dooku has the separatists in his hands and should also have controlled the delivery of the clone army with Jango a semi-permanent resident on that planet and in his pay (b) Senator Palpatine has easily assumed control of the Republic and is successfully manipulating everyone very nicely thank you - one can only imagine Palpatine wants a big war because he is basically an dark side anarchist and thinks it's all a bit of a lark.

Similarly, it is my feeling that Lucas in his older years has metaphorically turned to the dark side himself and that he is on a voyage of self-destruction, betraying all of the strengths of the original trilogy with this poor, dull, lifeless fare. It is my belief that part of his personality (perhaps that which recognises that his best creative days are behind him) is feeding off the chaos that these shoddy pieces of film-making is causing between his own fans.

Darth Badly - I salute you for your courage.

I recommend that in 20 years when George looks at re-releasing special editions of I & II that they should basically last 2 minutes long with the opening and end credits shown only and the nonsense in between deleted.

What I object to is that the very atmosphere and mystery of the back story that made the original trilogy so enjoyable and stretched our imaginations is systematically being wiped out and that the answers to the past sadly betray all that we have loved dearly.

The excessive use of CGI has turned these films into cartoons. The depth and layered levels of story-telling are gone and substituted with a messy and dull story that weekly fills the gaps that did not need explanation and should have been well left alone.

As for characters... please!!!! There are none that are worthy and even the superb Ewan McGregor (who certainly tries hard in Clones) is clearly not in love with his own work on these films having labelled Episode I correctly as flat.

It's all a bad dream and Lucas is walking over my childhood and the principles of film-making

Darth Badly - you are an example to us all.

Fellow fans - search inside yourselves. The truth will out and we can't go on living in denial. These new films are terrible and a travesty.

George - please end this sad madness soon.


WhatMeWookie

[Senator Theant]

My question: Why do some users, such as Darth Badly and WhatMeWookie, seemed determined to "wake up" fellow Star Wars fans to the quality of the film? What makes them more qualified to ajudicate the film and inform us of their findings?

True, some of the questions asked are mysteries that only Lucas may answer, but other questions seem to carry no train of thought whatsoever. In addition, it seems that these certain users are as unwillingy to accept or even consider the answers that have been made by other users as I am to accept the fact that Star Wars sucks. If you have problems with the movie, thats fine. But why carry on this unwarranted debate if the range of topics is too broad and certain users simply seem to be stubborn. There are certain forums for these topics. In which case a train of thought may be easily apparent and the debate will actually GET SOMEWHERE. I think its interesting to note that 9/10 of the posts made by the users DarthBadly, haemadroid, and WhatMeWookie have come in this forum alone. Folks, may I suggest that you read the posts of fellow users in other forums and use this medium to express your judgements of the move?

I will make no attempt to answer the questions, I would take time and space when this argument needs to ends soon and abrubtly, as too allow our friends the opporuntity to concentrate on the topics in other forums. User Tovor stated the answers quite clearly enough, without depriving too much from other forums. Thats what I think.

[RollaFett]

I really liked AOTC, that said I am not proclaiming it as the best movie in history. I have found some faults, those of which I have mentioned in various threads. I don't have a big problem with what Darth Badly or WhatMeWookiee have written in this thread. What I do have a problem with is this: If you are going to pose your complaints in the form of a question. then please...DON'T IGNORE THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS!!!!! There is nothing worse than a narrow-minded individual who cannot listen to any other opinion unless it agrees with his/her own. In all honesty, I actually agreed with some of your points, but I also allow some other opinions to filter into my brain in hopes of maybe learning a little more. Sadly, it appears as if you have no intention of aknowledging a differing opinion. A shame it is.

[kyris00]

all i have to say is this: some of us must of left our English skills somewhere. or maybe it's you just never learned any when you were high school. too bad you cannot come to english class with me tomorrow, my english teacher would maul you for your ignorant questions because you don't know the text. and yea star wars is complex and takes some intelligence to understand. too bad, maybe you should go see spider-man; the plot is too easy to get lost in.

[DanielSkywalker]

Gosh, please lighten up. The user who started this post and the others who share the same viewpoint as he/she are entitled to their own opinions. But, come on, I truly and honestly believe that you set yourselves up for this big dissapointment with AOTC and TPM. I am sure that when you saw the original trilogy, you were much younger and didn't have this preconcieved idea of what it should be. There were no expectations because it was new and didn't have a legacy or prerequisite to fulfill. Well, with the prequel trilogy, it seems that many fans/so-called fans are expecting the films to be exact CLONES of the originals. Well, they're not. There is a whole different story to be told here. A story which, I truly believe when finished, will make EP IV, V, and VI much, much better films. I am not saying that AOTC was the best Star Wars movie i've seen (the best would of course be ESB), but it was a far cry better than TPM, and possibly as good if not better than ROTJ or ANH. I knew upon walking into the theatre before viewing TPM for the 1st time that it was not going to be just like IV, V, and VI. For one, it has mostly "new" characters, and there is no empire or rebellion. But, to me it felt like a Star Wars movie. Go back and watch the original movies again and look for bad dialogue or cheesy moments. You will definitely find them. Whenever I pop in my copy of A new Hope, Empire, or Jedi, i instantly go back to being an 11 year old. I go back to a time when the dialogue or cheesy cliches were just fine with me. Perhaps many of you have forgotten what Star Wars is all about. It's a way to escape the everyday life we know so well, and get lost in a wonderful galaxy that Mr. Lucas has created for us. Am I looking forward to EpIII? You bet your bottom dollar collar I am. Like I said above, you are all entitled to your own opinions, but, I fear you have lost what made you become a Star Wars fan in the first place--your youth, innocence, and imagination.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Senator Theant@May 23 2002 - 22:32
My question: Why do some users, such as Darth Badly and WhatMeWookie, seemed determined to "wake up" fellow Star Wars fans to the quality of the film? What makes them more qualified to ajudicate the film and inform us of their findings?

True, some of the questions asked are mysteries that only Lucas may answer, but other questions seem to carry no train of thought whatsoever. In addition, it seems that these certain users are as unwillingy to accept or even consider the answers that have been made by other users as I am to accept the fact that Star Wars sucks. If you have problems with the movie, thats fine. But why carry on this unwarranted debate if the range of topics is too broad and certain users simply seem to be stubborn. There are certain forums for these topics. In which case a train of thought may be easily apparent and the debate will actually GET SOMEWHERE. I think its interesting to note that 9/10 of the posts made by the users DarthBadly, haemadroid, and WhatMeWookie have come in this forum alone. Folks, may I suggest that you read the posts of fellow users in other forums and use this medium to express your judgements of the move? *

I will make no attempt to answer the questions, I would take time and space when this argument needs to ends soon and abrubtly, as too allow our friends the opporuntity to concentrate on the topics in other forums. User Tovor stated the answers quite clearly enough, without depriving too much from other forums. Thats what I think.
As far as I can see nowhere in any of the posts that try to talk about and discuss the many many flaws in the new film does anyone claim to be "more qualified to adjudicate" anything. *The reason I used the term 'wake up' was because I really could not believe the number of people who were raving about what a good film it was.

I was just raising some talking points and expressing my own humble opinion that it was a bad film and bad piece of story telling. *(The plot is a bit of a house of cards and once you question one element you realise how silly most of it really is.)

Now you've misquoting me and suggested that people ignore this discussion. *People don't have to read / post if they don't want to. *Doh! *

In answer to your suggestion that I should raise the points/problems in the other forums - in some cases that's a fair enough idea, but since so many people seemed to love the movie I did think that one forum out of all the dozens on the board could deal with how much the movie sucks as a whole. *It that too much to ask?

I have read all the replies so far very carefully. *Some of the posts have raised sensible points that explain or at least go someway to papering over the holes in the plot. *Many holes, muddles, and silly bits of nonsense remain though and many of the answers offered contradict each other revealing a certain amount of confusion even among the experts.

My big point and what I really wanted to get across is this: *Why did Uncle George have to make the backbone plot for these two movies so muddled? *As heamadroid's post says - the basic idea that the evil future emperor wants to have a big war to kill loads of people, exterminate the Jedi, and take control of the entire universe is fine. *BUT I have huge problems with the confused and silly plot that he has chosen to express that basic idea.

[NelsonCoressel]

I dunno, I'm really intrigued by the confusion, the pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. *However, I do think a lot needs to be explained in Episode 3. *That's why I think the major revelation in that movie will be the basic truth that Palpatine is Sidious, that he has been orchestrating all of this the whole time.

It may seem muddled and silly now, but I have a feeling that it will all make sense after Episode 3. *If it doesn't, then I'll almost have to agree with you on some points. *But for now, I'm willing to be patient and see how it all shakes out.

[haemadroid]

Its all very well saying wait till episode three to find out what's going on with the Sith etc but Lucas has stated that he is making these films so that they stand on their own, in which case you shouldn't have to wait until the next instalment.

Incidentally, my Liberator model is now hanging up and looks great amongst the glo stars at night!

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Meche@May 24 2002 - 11:12
I think that what the other posters have a problem with is that you seemed a little condescending. *I mean, if anyone here happens to like the film, then there's a problem with that person? *Of course they're going to complain.

Changing the character names in the course of your first post was kinda weird, and it doesn't prove your point any, only expresses an individual opinion. *Think the name Padme Amidala is dumb? *I agree actually, I dislike the name Padme at least, so I usually call her Amidala. *That's just a plain old opinion though.

Man, thing is a lot of your questions are good. *I have a lot of qualms about this movie myself (mainly the rushed love story). *I still liked the movie though, and I don't think that it means I'm not awake. *If you watch Ep. II again, think logically, and actually wait for Episode III, then I think you'd get a lot of your questions answered. *If you still don't like the film, if you don't like how the plot was handled, but your opinion boils down only to your individual perception of beauty, then there's no sense in looking down on the rest of us who have a different idea of what beauty in a SW film is. *The questions you asked about AotC are really good and show you're alert to what's happening and want things to make sense. *I personally am tired of the more die-hard fans who love every single thing about this movie and don't question anything. *Questioning is good. *I admire that. *But some of us don't like that you haven't seemed open to the idea that there may be answers to every thing you said, and that you may in fact like the movie once your quest for logic here is satisfied. *If you still don't like it personally, that's quite acceptable.

I went through your questions, but I agree. *Tovor seems to have answered them better than I could. *They explained a lot of things to me too actually, there were a lot of things in AotC I didn't get. *Palpatine's power play I DO understand though, and it's the thing I look most forward to seeing: his rise to emperor and true absolute power (his being chancellor is NOT absolute power; he needs votes and permission).
[QUOTE]

Changing the names (or rather poking fun at the names) wasn't supposed to prove anything. *I think a lot of the new names are very silly. *And to be honest I have a hard time keeping track of them because the names are getting so daft.

I'm open to people explaining things - that's why I posted the questions in the first place. *
There were two main reasons: 1/ To perhaps raise awareness of some of the holes or muddles in the plot which people just seemed to be accepting and 2/ To get some answers. *Some of the answers that people have been kind enough to post have answered SOME of my many questions. *But far from all.

My main concern is still that the original trilogy could be understood and enjoyed by the public at large while this new lot can only be entirely understood with the aid of a roadmap and character guide and extensive knowledge - not to mention helping Uncle George fill in the gaps when he messes up.

Heamadroid (brilliant name) makes a very good point that the films should stand alone. *The originals form a trilogy but each are rewarding in their own right - while Episode II: Attack of the Clowns really makes no sense if seen alone. *(And very little, I would argue, if seen in context.)

[DanielSkywalker]

Well, let's see, so, you're telling me that The Empire Strikes Back explained everything at the end, and there was nothing that needed to be cleared up in Return of the Jedi? If there ever was a cliff hanger in the Star Wars saga it was ESB. Han's fate unknown, The true identity of Darth Vader unknown, Why does is seem that Vader and The Emperor are contridicting one another concerning Luke? Did Obi-Wan lie or is Vader the one who's lying? I'd say there were quite a few loose ends to be tied up. AOTC has it's loose ends as well, but i feel that it does stand alone as a great film just as Empire does. EPIII will (hopefully) explain all of our questions and tie the whole entire saga together.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by haemadroid@May 24 2002 - 11:53
Its all very well saying wait till episode three to find out what's going on with the Sith etc but Lucas has stated that he is making these films so that they stand on their own, in which case you shouldn't have to wait until the next instalment.

Incidentally, my Liberator model is now hanging up and looks great amongst the glo stars at night!
[QUOTE]

When I came back from seeing the two hours of slack nonsense that was Episode I:The JarJar Menace I took down all my Star Wars collection and put it all away. I had a view to sell it, but in the end a big bonfire (a la the end of Jedi)proved more enjoyable.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by DanielSkywalker@May 24 2002 - 12:43
Well, let's see, so, you're telling me that The Empire Strikes Back explained everything at the end, and there was nothing that needed to be cleared up in Return of the Jedi? *If there ever was a cliff hanger in the Star Wars saga it was ESB. *Han's fate unknown, The true identity of Darth Vader unknown, Why does is seem that Vader and The Emperor are contridicting one another concerning Luke? *Did Obi-Wan lie or is Vader the one who's lying? *I'd say there were quite a few loose ends to be tied up. *AOTC has it's loose ends as well, but i feel that it does stand alone as a great film just as Empire does. *EPIII will (hopefully) explain all of our questions and tie the whole entire saga together.
[QUOTE]

The Empire Strikes Back is very much a cliffhanger ending, but the difference is the Empire is a satisfying film in its own right.
You understood everyone's motivations and what they were trying to do in Empire while in Clowns it's just a confusing mess.
(At least for me, heamadroid and the general public.)

[Vibroblade]

Members, do yourself a favor and ignore this guy. There's nothing more depressing than seeing good posters waste there time in debates such as these.

DarthBadly doesn't like the movie...great for him...move along now.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Vibroblade@May 24 2002 - 13:07
Members, do yourself a favor and ignore this guy. There's nothing more depressing than seeing good posters waste there time in debates such as these.

DarthBadly doesn't like the movie...great for him...move along now.
[QUOTE]

Hey - Exactly who put you in charge of closing down discussion and free speech?

"debates such as these" meaning anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do?

You're right that I don't like the movie - but it's not just me.

[Smeghead]

Well, actually, the guy who runs the board put him in charge. And we're being nice about it. You wanna see a crackdown on free speech, try posting a dissenting opinion on TF.N and see how far you get. And he hasnt closed down discussion, only warned people of the futility of arguing with you.

And "debates such as these" meaning debates where neither side is going to change their minds, and all that will be accomplished is everyone getting pissed off.

You don't like the movie, and you're entitled to that opinion, but you're not entitled to flamebait everyone on the board.

[NelsonCoressel]

Lucas has stated that he is making these films so that they stand on their own

I've never heard Lucas say that. What he has said is that all the movies together are supposed to make up one big 12-hour movie.

Also, I remember how pissed and dissapointed some people were when ESB was released, and most of the relatively few negative bashings I've heard about AOTC are pretty much redundant of the 1980 reviews.

[shaps]

Often people on these boards, at least in the past, have simply said, it's a movie, just go with it... suspend your disbelief....

That's all fine and good... BUT... being that we're posting messages about Star Wars we all are commenting, raving, ranting about something we love (or at least have a marginal interest in).

So, let's keep an open mind and understand that what some people love, other people hate.

If there's no debate, there's no growth... and as long as we do keep things in perspective that we're discussing a movie, not life and death situations, we should all be able to get along fine.

[haemadroid]

I've never heard Lucas say that. What he has said is that all the movies together are supposed to make up one big 12-hour movie.[QUOTE]



Well just because you've never heard him say that doesn't mean its not true. I HAVE heard George say that.

As Darth Badly said, the previous trilogy did contain stand alone films which contained cliff hangers in the same way that The Fellowship of the Ring had a cliff hanger. The story might not be wrapped up at the end but its a great self contained film with a wonderful journey for the characters and the audience. That's what film making is about, not throwing some haphazard jumble at people and expect them to figure out what's going on because you haven't done your job properly.

Okay, I do realise that the plot is basic and childishly simple but Lucas then went and tried to make it appear complicated by having extremely tedious (yes they were and you can't pretend that they weren't) scenes stuffed with exposition set in the council chamber. Looks to me like he thought his original storyline was too simplistic and so started fiddling with it and ended up making this convoluted mess.

I know that many of you here don't agree with that view and that's really wonderful for you, I'm afraid that my tastes are different. George let me down and, just like Darth Badly says, he has made me put my toys away. (Apart from the Blake's 7 ones) I wonder if I should get into daleks again - wee wifie won't like that!

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Smeghead@May 24 2002 - 13:24
[color=green]Well, actually, the guy who runs the board put him in charge. And we're being nice about it. You wanna see a crackdown on free speech, try posting a dissenting opinion on TF.N and see how far you get. And he hasnt closed down discussion, only warned people of the futility of arguing with you.
Well, gee - I guess I should be really grateful for that. It's really generous of you all. Thanks so very much - oh land of the free & brave.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Vibroblade@May 24 2002 - 13:07
Members, do yourself a favor and ignore this guy. There's nothing more depressing than seeing good posters waste there time in debates such as these.

DarthBadly doesn't like the movie...great for him...move along now.
Err.. "there" should be "their". Actually.

[Mara1Jade]

You are going to correct a frequent grammatical error now? I think you really are intending upon starting some pointless flame war.

And you asked somewhere up there why the people of Naboo would have elected a 14-year old queen. Check your history books, things like that have happened in the "real world" too.

And Tovor has done a superb job of answering most of your questions.

One more thing...why doesn't anyone recognize Sidious as Palpatine? Who says the ones who have seen him don't know that. I fully believe the Trade Fed guys knew that.

"I will have the Senate bogged down in procedures."

"In the Senate, I will see that things stay as they are."

Now, how praytell can he say something like that to the Nemodians and them NOT know that Palpatine and Sidious are the same. If they don't know, they've gotta at least know Palpy has control.

And it is quite likely that, until the events of Episode I, Palpatine was barely known by most senators. It's a big galaxy. There are alot of Senators. They meet in a biiiiig ole chamber in "boxes" where they talk when their chair is recognized and raises up. You think someone could really, really SEE the guy well enough to remember his face that well?

And as someone pointed out up there I think, NOBODY KNEW WHO THE HECK SIDIOUS WAS ASIDE FROM A SMALL FEW WHO HAD SEEN HIM/MET HIM/BEEN USED BY HIM. You knocked this as a stupid answer, but let's think about this:

"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge."

The Sith were undercover. Sidious wouldn't have been trotting around in that black robe in the local catina.

"Hard to see the darkside is."

The Jedi thought they had it peachy-keen. They could be merely FEET away from Palpatine and not know he was the bad dude. They don't have a clue in heck as to who Sidious is. They don't even know if Maul was the Master or the Apprentice. And if the JEDI can't figure it out, the average person is certainly not going to.

Finally, you are forgetting that "Always in motion, the future." Sure, Palpatine/Sidious might have FORESEEN himself as Emperor, but that title wasn't going to fall in his lap without him doing anything just because he had foreseen it. He'd forseen that he COULD be Emperor. But no pain, no gain.

Now, you may blast all my points as much as you like. But I know they are valid. And I dislike being implicated as some sort of idiot because I liked AOTC. Your tone is rather degrading.

[Teek]

Darth Badly, now you're not even hiding the fact you're trying to start a flame war. You're being warned, chill out. Stop making things so personal. Having an opinion can be talked about rationally without resorting to sarcastic wisecracks about those who hold differing opinions than you.

[Darth Badly]

What I've done here is to get a serious discussion going about some of the many points I thought were not so good about Attack of the Clowns - for heaven's sake, as I've said before - 1/ I'm not attacking anyone who likes the film 2/ It's just an opinion 3/ It's just a (crappy) movie not real life.

[Vibroblade]

Sorry about the gramatical mistake...It's this typing thing. Usually, I write things by hand and I don't worry about grammer. No one can ever read a physician's writting anyway:)

I'm not trying to stiffle your right to free speech, to having an opinion, to anything. You posted several questions, and many posters responded to them. I couldn't see that anyone's opinion was affected so I simply said move along.

I will not let this discussion degrade into a shouting match like some of the debates after TPM.

[Smeghead]

Originally posted by Darth Badly@May 24 2002 - 17:19
Well, gee - I guess I should be really grateful for that. It's really generous of you all. Thanks so very much - oh land of the free & brave.
Hey, I live to serve, man...


And that'd be "land of the free, and *home of the brave* ;o)

[NelsonCoressel]

Converstation = interesting.

Debate = enlightening.

whizzing Contest = BORING.

:tounge:

[Tovor]

Darth Badly,
I apologize for my insults and sarcasm in my response to you. I do have a habit of being at times very sarcastic, and since I felt that your opening post was not meant to seek out answers but to insult those who liked AOTC, I let my sarcasm have full rein. *In regards to my JAP comment to your "Princess Portman" comment, I thought it was bad form to refer to a former queen/current senator as a princess, and use the actress's name to boot. In actuality I had not assumed you were using the race card by referring to her as a JAP; no, that was my sarcasm added on for impact. *In reference to implying that your user name indicated your writing style, well, with my sarcastic wit faced with a name like "Badly", how could I resist? (Maybe I should be the one named "Vibroblade", since my comments can be more sharp and cutting than his.)

Now, moving on, I thought your introductory message was condescending to those of us who enjoyed AOTC (and TPM too.). *On this forum, and the previous one before it, posters like Vibroblade and I, and several others, spent endless time discussing all of the issues we did not understand about the SW saga, and contemplating how the new trilogy would unfold, how Anakin would turn to the dark side, how Palpatine would gain absolute power, ect. ect. *We love and thrive on pulling the saga apart and turning it around and upside down and right side up again to get a better perspective on what the overall story is about, and about how the hidden storylines and conspiracies that the casual movie-goer misses are moving the story forward to tell the full story we have waited 2 decades to be told. *And that is why, when someone barges in and announces that the themes we pull apart and analyze are childish and simple (I am not quoting you, only talking in generalization), and that we are ignorant for appreciating AOTC and the first trilogy in general, many people react in the way they do. *

I have gripes about TPM, lots of them, but I loved the movie. *I have some gripes about AOTC as well, although they are not as major as those for TPM. *Sure, these episodes are not as simple and easy to follow as the old trilogy, but that is what I love about them. *Not that the old trilogy did this, but I don't care for movies that are simplified for a dumbed-down audience, with only action and violence and small amounts of storyline and intrigue to keep the action scenes going. *I love AOTC and TPM for their complexity in the secret plans of Palpatine and his manipulation of the Senate, the organs of commerce, and the Jedi. *

Somebody said, either you or haemadroid, that the films of the old trilogy stood on their own, unlike AOTC which made no sense to those who hadn't seen TPM. I do not agree. First off, what makes the SW saga so interesting is that it is a continuing storyline rather than one movie and a bunch of copycat sequels. *Second, if you hadn't seen ANH would you have understood who the ghost in TESB was who told Luke to go to some planet to be trained as a Jedi, and how that person became a spirit? *Maybe that would not matter since all you really need to know is that the rebels are fighting the empire and Luke wants to be a Jedi. *But could ROTJ possibly stand on its own without ANH and TESB before it? How did Han become carbon frozen, and why? Who is that fat slug and why is he mad at Han? Vader is Luke's father? Who is Vader, and who is this spirit who explained his story to Luke from a certain point of view? Who is that green guy with the pointy ears who Luke returns to? How did Luke get a bionic hand? *There are so many plot points wrapped up in ROTJ that without the first two you could never understand the movie. *

So I say, SW is not like ST with a new movie having little to nothing to do with the story of the movie before it or after it. *SW is a continuing story told in 6 chapters, and I would not like for each movie to be a scaled down wrapped into-one-movie story. *What do you think about the "Matrix", "Matrix Reloaded", and "Matrix Revolutions"? *Do you think any of those movies could stand alone without seeing the first one to begin following the story? *And for that matter, the LOTR movies are the same way I think, one continuing story told in 3 different books and movies. *

On a personal level, I am a writer (unpublished as yet), and I have written drafts for a 2 part Star Wars series (with the chance that it could become a trilogy) which tell two complete stories but one main continuing story. *The first one is great with a neat cliffhanger, and the second one would be difficult to follow if the reader did not read the first one first. I am also working on a NON-SW sci-fi/fantasy/war/adventure series that is nine books long, telling nine individual stories as part of several ongoing storylines and one main story, and I don't intend for any of them to stand alone without being part of the overall saga. *With that said, I think the prequel story told throughout 3 movies is my kind of brainfood.

Darth Badly, I strongly urge, recommend, and invite you to go to the "Who Was Sifo Dyas?" discussion thread and read the 3 following messages: The 1st by myself on 5/19 at 13:53, the 2nd by Senator Theant on 5/19 at 19:48, and the 3rd by Nathan Butler on 5/24 at 19:26. *Those 3 posts, as well as several others, discuss and detail the plans and means of Palpatine/Sideous in a manner you would find enlightening.

I also invite you to go to the Communications section and find the "Tovor's Star Wars Fan Survey Thread" (at least I think that's what I called it!) and answer the survey questions and read those of the others who participated. *My survey is a way to help all of us get to know each other, and if you are to be a part of this message board, there is a good place to start.

Also, I know my sarcasm was strong in some of my wording, but I urge you to reread my message where I addressed several of your complaints about AOTC. *You may still not agree with AOTC fans or with me, but I would appreciate it if you would consider the points I made and respond to them. *That is what we enjoy doing here anyway, what makes this site so much fun.

Cheers,
~Tov

[Vibroblade]

whizzing Contest = BORING

Depends on the wind condition it does.

[haemadroid]

[QUOTE] *Second, if you hadn't seen ANH would you have understood who the ghost in TESB was who told Luke to go to some planet to be trained as a Jedi, and how that person became a spirit?


Well yes, you would because the explanation is contained in that movie, having a ghost pop up in the beginning of a story isn't something new you know, it happened to a chap called Hamlet and no one watching that thought, "Damn this must be Hamlet II, I missed the first one."

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Tovor@May 24 2002 - 23:52
Somebody said, either you or haemadroid, that the films of the old trilogy stood on their own, unlike AOTC which made no sense to those who hadn't seen TPM. I do not agree. First off, what makes the SW saga so interesting is that it is a continuing storyline rather than one movie and a bunch of copycat sequels. *
I entirely agree that what makes Star Wars more (potentially) interesting in the continuing story. I think the BIG difference between our views on the films standing alone is this:

In the original trilogy of course there were many plot lines left dangling between the films BUT for me each film could have been enjoyed without knowing every last detail of the plot that went before it because in each film even the casual viewer could understand the motivations for what was happening. (Vader wants to capture Luke or rebels want to blow up Darth Star II).

My BIGGGGGGGGGG problem with Attack of the Clowns is that I really couldn't understand why people were doing things or at times exactly what they were doing. This wasn't due to well written mystery (as in what will become of Han now he is frozen?) but because the writing / dialogue and plot were (to me) muddled. Even if some of the nonsense can be explained afterwards (and I've looked through your answers to my questions very carefully and as I've already said they do answer SOME of my points) it surely can't be a storyteller's aim to confuse his audience?

[WhatMeWookie]

People, people

Have been out of the loop on this one for the past two days as my real life has been rudely intruding.

I take my eye off the ball and look what happens, we all descend into squabbling and bickering, in a way that is most undignified and again further evidence of the divisiveness that Eps I & II have caused (n.b. my Lucas/psychological dark side theory from my previous post and take heed of this tension that grows amongst us).

We all share something here and I think it's worth reminding everyone of this. We share a common bond. We are or have been in love (at least at some point) with the same "woman" here (and I mean that deeply respectfully and with no intended anti-feminist offence). When I say "love" I really mean it - just look at the passion of the arguments submitted over the past few days.

The trouble is for many years, I loved the original Star Wars trilogy - not because of the merchandise, or the detailed encyclopaedia's, books, novels and comic books that attempted in their own way to fill in the gaps of the saga - but because my true passion is cinema and the cinematic arts.

In many respects, it's been great to fantasise about the different aspects of the Star Wars universe...and occassionally to have the help of the accessories mentioned to aid that.

But, for me and I think a great deal of fans..Star Wars will always be about the movies... and this is the problem.

I feel - and I think we should all respect this - great sadness that haemadroid and darth badly, in particular, have been so "betrayed" by the clear object of their love that the whole Star Wars experience now feels like a broken marriage. darth badly claims to have burnt his collection and Haemadroid is putting up models of terrible old British shows in place of the design classics that the original Star Wars trilogy offered. This is really really sad.

Why is this happening??? It comes down to the poor story-telling and film-making of I & II - which whilst - in certain cold respects - may be technically dazzling is vastly inferior to the original films. Now before, I get shouted out - that is just my opinion and nothing more in this debate. Apologies but there you have it and I'm not going to lie.

Forget the original trilogy (hard to do I know) - and let's look at I & II in their own right. The films may be above average in terms of Summer blockbuster fare, but that's only because we have all had our standards decimated by the onslaught of tired, hacked rubblish that has been coming out of the system over the past few years. We've all been drained by the pop video stylised, live life in 3 minutes, bullet time photographed, CGI reliant nonsense that takes bucks , because we all still love the movies - but what do they deliver. I want a decent movie that leaves me walking out of the theater shaking, moved and feeling every emotion. Buzzed in a way that makes me feel as if I had lived life for two hours just like the characters and particularly the protagonists. That what they had experienced felt as if it had happened to me.

Is this the experience we have been delivered by I & II. Well for me no. Whether George did or did not say the movies should stand alone.. the fact is that is entirely what they should do. It's not about open story lines or cliffhangers. ESM stood by itself because it was a complete movie experience in its own right.

But with I & II would they have worked so well without the critical mass of fan support worldwide built by the original trilogy. That's what they should have delivered....but they didn't. Yep they sold tickets, just like the routine James Bond films do 40 years after Dr No - but they sure didn't sell the merchandise as evidenced by the licensing chaos of TPM and the completely revised approach taken for AOTC. That's not because of bad merchandising or too much...it's because consumer demand has been suppressed by its general lack of inspiration from these films.... and that my friends is down to the story-telling.

I never remember such confused debate about what happened in the original trilogy. Everyone was united, on what had happened, when and why. The open questions were mutual across the Star Wars fanbase. We all looked for more and waited for new material to pop up... but we always had the movies as the firm base. Not so today. Listen I love Chinatown, Terry Gilliam movies and occassional glimpses into David Lynch's personal mental health.. I don't necessarily want answers on a plate, but is a discussion about the voting procedures for the senate really something worthwhile pursing???

If we do make comparisons with the originals...
Are any of the craft or designs as strong as the classics from the original. After ANH, every kid on the block knew a TIE fighter, X-Wings, Death Stars, Landspeeders. Not so today.

Are any of the entirely new characters or side-kicks as unforgettable or personable.

And what of the villains. Darth Maul and Count Dooku (despite a good peformance by Lee) hardly do anything and their lines are not as chilling or effective as the well-rounded villains of the original.

Some of you may say yes - I really wish I could say the same too. But I can't.

Now to go back to my "love" analogy. I feel slighted. I feel like I've been loyal and married to the same woman for years and then sadly she slaps me round the chops, tells me she's never loved me and walks off with the kids. It's that degree of hurt I'm feeling. .. and I feel the same must be true for Darth badly and Haemadroid.

I'm not denying anyone's right to an opinion - I just wish someone would compare these films to something cinematically worthy (even aside form the original 3).They may be better than Spiderman - but is that such a great thing.

Where are the good movies????


WhatMeWookie

[haemadroid]

WhatMeWookie asks "where are the good movies?" the only answer I can give is that the best film I've seen lately is Jackson's Fellowhip of the Ring and I for one will be buying both versions of the dvd when they appear. Cinema is all about storytelling, involve me in a terrific plot with great characters and I'll buy into big time. Sadly, alas, Lucas has failed to do that twice now and I'm not holding out any hope for the third episode in his shambolic merchandising exercise.

As for "terrible old British shows" I'm shaocked! Any one episode of Blake's 7 stands up (story and character wise) to I and II. As for Dr Who, well I'd much rather watch an episode of the dire McCoy years than have to sit through the cotton picking Gungans again.

[Smeghead]

Bah, Red Dwarf is far superior to Dr Who or Blakes 7... ;)

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by WhatMeWookie@May 25 2002 - 21:28
Now to go back to my "love" analogy. I feel slighted. I feel like I've been loyal and married to the same woman for years and then sadly she slaps me round the chops, tells me she's never loved me and walks off with the kids.
[QUOTE]

It's worse than that. I feel she's slapped me round the chops, told me she's never loved me, and walked out and left me WITH the kids.

Given the consensus of opinion seems to be that as a movie Attack of the Clowns is somewhere between a bit dodgy and utter rubbish, I can't see how there's any hope that things will be any better with Episode III.

Uncle George is now two thirds of the way through his new epic of nonsense - too late to pull it back from being an utter let down even if the third part isn't as crappy.
(Which I'd be happy to bet money right now that it will be. Probably it'll be the worst of the lot because of all the many many questions that have to be answered. So much has been left unclear and unexplained by the first two new films – how on earth is he going to make it all make some kind of sense. R2 & C3PO memory wiped in the last scene, I bet? Ugh!)

Anyway, given that, what can we do? Is there anyway to persuade Uncle George to NOT make Episode III? I'm sure you would agree it’d be doing us all a big favour. Does anyone have any good ideas for how to get him to stop?

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Smeghead@May 26 2002 - 09:56
<span style='color:green'>Bah, Red Dwarf is far superior to Dr Who or Blakes 7... *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif</span>
Red Dwalf rips off ideas from both those great shows and still manages to be unfunny rubbish aimed at teenagers.

[Mara1Jade]

OK, so you didn't like Attack of the Clones. *I'd like to know where you got that the "general consensus" is that the movie was "dodgy" to "utter rubbish." *Then again, maybe I don't wanna know. *It's not enough for you to say "I don't like the film because of X, Y, and Z." *You've gotta slam and degrade every person who liked the film. *Which, unless I'm really off the mark, is more people than DIDN'T like the film.

And that last comment of yours was totally uncalled for. Does it make you feel better by retitling the movies/shows you don't like or something???

[Smeghead]

Originally posted by Darth Badly@May 26 2002 - 11:32
Red Dwalf rips off ideas from both those great shows and still manages to be unfunny rubbish aimed at teenagers.
Well that's a damn fine coincidence, as I happen to be a teenager. And really, as far as flamebait goes, that was pretty weak...

[moocat]

Darth Badly........Bored Now style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

[Darth Badly]

Agggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg! See below. This is terrible news!


"The bigger news of today though was MTV apparently re-iterated rumours that Natalie Portman has signed on to be a part of the new scenes being filmed for Episode VI: Return Of The Jedi - she'll shoot scenes during the production of Episode III which'll then be reinserted to the DVD release of 'Jedi'."

[NelsonCoressel]

How is that terrible news? Sounds relatively interesting to me...

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by NelsonCoressel@May 28 2002 - 07:44
How is that terrible news? *Sounds relatively interesting to me...
Are you kidding me? It's terrible news because not content with producing new films which are crap, Uncle George now seems set on messing up the original trilogy.

Why can't they just release a nice DVD of the original cimema release of the first three. That's all I want. Don't mess those up too.

[NelsonCoressel]

I for one would love to see ROTJ get a little more of a work-over, if anything to give it a stronger sense of being the finale of the whole story.

Who knows what this scene with Portman will be? *Maybe it's a flashback sequence while Leia is trying to remember her mother ("she died when I was very young..."), a scene which needs all the help it can get.

I'm dying to see what the complete Star Wars Saga will look like in a few years, new scenes and all. I'd rather see it, then criticize it, which is why to me it sounds interesting rather than immediately "terrible news."

[WhatMeWookie]

Oh my word

This is a disaster. It's like taking the Mona Lisa and going back to paint a moustache over it. Doesn't anyone respect the art of cinema anymore or are classic films to merely become corrupted and mutated into inferior fare.

You wouldn't do this to a Kubrick or a Hitchcock and Lucas degrades the reputation he once held by trivialising his earlier work and infecting it with his blind passion for CGI cartoon tomfoolery.

Someone should stop this. It's an offence to cinema and the arts in general. Hey a little cleaning up and respectful enhancement of certain effects maybe, but screw with the narrative and you're on thin ice. All the special editions, especially the new Jedi ending suffered from such tinkering.

Anyone heard the expression ... if it ain't broke...

I think just like classic buildings are looked after and protected from these kind of adjustments... so should films be treated that way.

And if Jar Jar Binks or any of his sorry kind make their way into the cantina scene. I'll just... I'll just cry actually.

WhatMeWookie.

[NelsonCoressel]

. All the special editions, especially the new Jedi ending suffered from such tinkering

Well that's interesting, I actually find the Special Edition ending of ROTJ to be far superior to the 1983 print. In fact, I find it hard to watch the earlier versions of any of the Star Wars movies now. The SE's are the only version worth seeing.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by NelsonCoressel@May 28 2002 - 19:44
. All the special editions, especially the new Jedi ending suffered from such tinkering

Well that's interesting, I actually find the Special Edition ending of ROTJ to be far superior to the 1983 print. *In fact, I find it hard to watch the earlier versions of any of the Star Wars movies now. The SE's are the only version worth seeing.
The "special editions" have Han Solo looking straight at Jabba's belly - where the eyeline of the human Jabba would have been in a scene which is utterly pointless and only slows down the story.
A few of the extra exterior shots in Empire look pretty BUT they failed to clean up the stuff which really needed help in the opening battle.
AND worst of all they totally messed up the music in the closing sequence of Return of the Jedi.

As WhatMeWookie says if it ain't broke why fix it - other than to milk the fans for yet more money of course.

The originals already suffer from enough of Uncle George changing his mind as it is. The whole 'killed your father' bit which Obi Wan has to admit he lied about later and the sister thing. Now we're supposed to stand for even more tinkering and all becasue the idiot can't plot out the story in advance. Doh! Hasn't he heard of writing a synopsis first?

It's too much.

[WhatMeWookie]

I think when the '97 special editions came out... we'd all been waiting a long time for anything new and had had to make do with the merchandise and spin offs.

So hungry were we all, that catching sight of new pieces of footage tagged on to an existing masterpiece seemed a great idea... but I feel like Yoda at the end of AOTC in thinking just like using the fascistic clone army might have been a bad idea, so was the excessive use of new technology for the Special Editions.

You just shouldn't treat cinema and movie-making like just another collectable.

I really didn't like the new ending of Jedi. Those last few minutes feel disjointed in terms of editing and the new music actually is one of the weakest orchestrations in John Williams career (and listen even though I detest TPM, credit where credit is due "Dual of the Fates" is a fantastic piece of music that is sadly wasted but worthy of the original trilogy).

Even if you hate Ewoks (who I think are unfairly maligned and see as a powerful symbol of the meek overwhelming technology and therefore the system - George please take note of the moral of your own story here) the Ewok song fitted naturally with the last few minutes and the choral high switching into the main theme was beautifully realised. Now all gone. What do we get Star Wars:The Animated Series CGI. I think it was seeing this that I guessed we were heading for the troubles with TPM and AOTC.

As for Amidala now entering ROTJ... why... what do we get another blue tinged spirit in the line up giving old Anakin a cuddle. I'll barf. If I have to watch the spirit of Anakin and Amidala skip around singing "The Hills Are Alive .. with the Sound of Music", as we came so close to getting in AOTC., I will blow chunks.

WhatMeWookie

[NelsonCoressel]

BUT they failed to clean up the stuff which really needed help in the opening battle. *


What the hell part is that? What are you talking about??

AND worst of all they totally messed up the music in the closing sequence of Return of the Jedi

I'll take the newer version of the closing ROTJ music over "yub yub" any ####in day, thanks... *:biggrin:

Hasn't he heard of writing a synopsis first?

Come on, man... why is it so hard for people to see this like a modern-day Wagerian opera meets Flash Gordon?
Wagner wrote his Ring cycle pretty much "backwards," then put it all together in sequence with revisions 30 years later. And it's the "Special Edition" we see at the Met every time.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by WhatMeWookie@May 28 2002 - 20:28
As for Amidala now entering ROTJ... why... what do we get another blue tinged spirit in the line up giving old Anakin a cuddle. I'll barf. If I have to watch the spirit of Anakin and Amidala skip around singing "The Hills Are Alive .. with the Sound of Music", *as we came so close to getting in AOTC., I will blow chunks.

WhatMeWookie
'The hills are alive'

Excellent idea!

Kylie can be the green fairy of the Force and all the jedi ghosts can have a right old East End knees up together. Why? Because they can can can...

My bet is they'll do a wavy screen flashback when Leia is droning on about the mother.

But why stop there? Perhaps in the classic and most marvellous scene between Luke and Ben when Ben tells him that Darth Vader killed his father, young Anakin's voice could be heard on the soundtrack shouting "No, I bleedin' didn't you dodgy English ****t."

Things can only get better.

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by NelsonCoressel@May 28 2002 - 20:36
BUT they failed to clean up the stuff which really needed help in the opening battle. *


What the hell part is that? What are you talking about??

AND worst of all they totally messed up the music in the closing sequence of Return of the Jedi

I'll take the newer version of the closing ROTJ music over "yub yub" any ####in day, thanks... *:biggrin:

Hasn't he heard of writing a synopsis first?Come on, man... why is it so hard for people to see this like a modern-day Wagerian opera meets Flash Gordon?
Wagner wrote his Ring cycle pretty much "backwards," then put it all together in sequence with revisions 30 years later. And it's the "Special Edition" we see at the Met every time.
The opening battle in Empire has some very dodgy effects in it. I love the film - but even to me there are some shockingly bad matt jobs.

As for Wagner - I didn't grow up with his early work. And I didn't buy nearly as many of the toys.

[Pepper]

Well shoot. *I don't think I can really add anything substantial to the discussion, but I have read everyone's comments. *Really, this particular discussion was dead from the start. *Not that it shouldn't have been started, but there's just no way anyone's going to convince anyone else with an opposite opinion to change his mind. *But for the sake of the thread's main topic, I really liked AOTC. *In fact, there were some parts that I consider true gems. *Sure, it's very very heavy on the CG stuff, but c'mon people, we knew they would be like that before we even saw any footage from TPM! *Lucas forewarned us that he was ready to make the Prequels BECAUSE the CG technology was where he wanted it to be! *And honestly there's no (realistic) way these movies could be done otherwise, regardless of how well/poorly the scripts are written. *OK, there's my take on the Prequels. *(And before anyone accuses me of being a brainless fanboy, yes, I do have problems with some things in the Prequels, but that's not my point here.)

One of the gems I found in AOTC was the scene at the Lars home with Anakin and Padme after he killed the Tuskens. *I was very impressed with Hayden's performance, and was very moved by that scene. *This ranks up there in my mind with the Ben/Luke scene in Ben's home in ANH, the Qui-Gon/Anakin scene at the dinner table in TPM, and Luke's confrontation with Palpatine in ROTJ. *Those are some of my very favorite scenes in all of SW. *

Another thing I was impressed with was Mace Windu. *I really like how he was portrayed in AOTC. *He proved himself to be a truly great warrior and a strong and decisive leader. *Too bad we didn't get to see him duel with a lightsaber, but here's hoping we'll see that in Episode III.

Concerning the SE ending of ROTJ...
I loved it!! *And actually it was the main reason why I went to see ROTJ:SE three times in the theatre. *(That and Fett's flirting scene.) *As Coressel said, it was MUCH better than the Yub-yub junk. *I never liked that stuff. *But again, I don't expect to convince anyone who didn't like it, and I don't knock you for disliking it, or the Prequels, or anything else about SW. *You have your reasons, and that's just the way it is. *I'm sorry you've been turned off to SW, but I don't know how I could change that. :sad:

At first I was rather upset that Lucas had made changes to the Original Trilogy, and I'm still very unhappy with some of the changes he made. (The Greedo shoots first scene, for one.) But my opinion is that if he wants to change stuff, well, I may not like it, but there's really no legitimate reason why he shouldn't if he so desires. It all boils down to this: they're HIS movies!

Like it or not, and no one says you have to like it.

[technorat]

ANYONE! Who thinks Attack of the Clones was a bad movie has the intelligence of Bantha faequal matter.

[Jedi_Zachaa]

Ok... I don't see how you see this as news. It says that MTV has "reiterated RUMORS" (emphasis mine). Come on people, RUMORS!!! I think we all need to calm down and stare at that word.

And if it IS true, if we say from the start it's going to be terrible we'll stick with that and it WILL be terrible for us, and there will be no chance of it being good. Try to have an open mind.

[WayoftheGungon]

I have to say I'm a starwars fan. So I have a make shift handicap from the get go. Personally I get excited anytime anything new that is starwars related comes out. Its interesting to me to read all these comments about how horrible Episode II is and how horrible it would be to brush up the OT once again. Personally I loved Episode II, I rank it up there with Empire which happens to be my favorite. And I love the idea of seeing new footage for the OT added in. Now I will admit some of the stuff in the SE was really cool when I saw it in the theater then later on I kinda shook my head at it, but nevertheless it was still really cool to see new footage added in. And as for Episode II, it simply does a wonderful job giving us homage to the old films, while adding in some massive CGI fight scenes that to me are very impressive. I duno I'm really rambling here. To bring it all together as best as possible I have nothing against fans that hate or dislike Episode II, while I don't understand why they dislike it they can say the same for those of us who do like it. And adding scenes does not hurt the OT. You can watch the OT and enjoy it, just as much as you can watch the SE's and enjoy or dislike it. Its not the end of the world if he tiners around with his vision. Ignore it and go watch the Original editions.

[WhatMeWookie]

Originally posted by Meche@May 28 2002 - 20:33
I don't like the idea of yet another re-touching of RotJ, it remained my favorite movie even after the special edition though. *I certainly don't like the idea of Amidala showing up, but hey, it might be good. *I'm open to seeing how it looks. *Can't take it [/i]that[i] seriously anyway. *I can just watch the original-original version and remember it however I want.
Meche - at last the voice of reason - I salute you

My worry is that - okay if we get the choice to watch what we like then it's a democracy.

But will we!

Will Lucasfilm allow the untouched original versions to be included in the DVD release - which I have heard is now scheduled for Spring 2063 - allowing fans the choice to ignore the corruptions of the SE and any subsequent naffness planned.

I suspect we may not be given that choice. Personally I'd like to see the very first version of Star Wars that never even mentioned "Episode IV - A New Hope" as that may allow me the chance to wipe out from my memory the nonsense of I & II and unavoidable nonsense of III.

If we're allowed the chance to see the originals as they were flaws and all (and flaws are a natural quirk of great art) - then maybe the changes become an optional curiosity much like deleted scenes.

Can I get a consenses that this would be the right way to do things from you guys. Will democracy prevail??? Or does everyone want to see the memory of once great-film-making wiped out.

Alll those in favour say "Aye".

As for the end of ROTJ, yub-yub was good, the penny whistle music played by the Jonny Williams Four was yuk yuk....

And also how comes across a whole universe does everyone suddenly unite in glee at the demise of the Emperor or Death Star 2. It would take years for repressed people that had been under the control of an Empire to work out what was great or not. And if they were that annoyed in the first place, why didn't they just stand up, join the rebellion and out number their foes. Seems to me that everyone in the Star Wars Universe is worried about their tax positions more than the quality of life and surely everyone in the Universe would need to consult their accountants and wait for the Rebel Alliance budget to be pushed through before being able to determine if they were financially better off. Those scenes of thousands jumping for joy made no sense and did not edit well into the original ending.


WhatMeWookie

[Tovor]

Will Lucasfilm allow the untouched original versions to be included in the DVD release - which I have heard is now scheduled for Spring 2063 - allowing fans the choice to ignore the corruptions of the SE and any subsequent naffness planned.


Pardon me, Spring, 2063? Are you sure about that date? Lucas will be dead by then, and so will some of us long-time fans. Those of who aren't will likely be too old, going blind, and hard of hearing to sit through the SW saga again. On the plus side, some of you who hate the prequels will finally be so old and forgetful you will have finally forgotten about the movies you hated.

[WhatMeWookie]

And in case we are forgetting how things started... back to AOTC

Star Wars used to set trends and lead the path in effects design and action set piece sequences.

Is it just me or did the whole flying car chase sequence at the beginning rip off "The Fifth Element". Are the run of ideas so exhausted that Lucas has to rip off nonsensical naff French fare....

Oh calamity!!!

[NelsonCoressel]

unavoidable nonsense of III

You've seen Episode 3? Cool.


And also how comes across a whole universe does everyone suddenly unite in glee at the demise of the Emperor or Death Star 2.

Maybe those images are a time-lapse.
Even if not, they do have hi-tech communication systems in the Star Wars universe.

Again I ask, why is it so hard for people to even try to see Star Wars as one complete story? *Other artists have revised, changed and enhanced their work over a 30-year period until they were satisfied with it. Why is Lucas not allowed to?

[Vibroblade]

technorat
ANYONE! Who thinks Attack of the Clones was a bad movie has the intelligence of Bantha faequal matter.

I do believe that post would qualify as a flame..this is a warning. If you have points of arguments, please feel free to express your opinion. However, do not attack posters on a personal level. Such behavior is not conducive to intelligent debate.

[NelsonCoressel]

Also, WhatMeWookie, do you also see a "calamity" in the fact that the 1977 Star Wars movie has dozens of rip-off moments from Kurosawa's Samurai epics and John Ford Westerns?

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by WhatMeWookie@May 29 2002 - 08:30
And also how comes across a whole universe does everyone suddenly unite in glee at the demise of the Emperor or Death Star 2. It would take years for repressed people that had been under the control of an Empire to work out what was great or not. And if they were that annoyed in the first place, why didn't they just stand up, join the rebellion and out number their foes. Seems to me that everyone in the Star Wars Universe is worried about their tax positions more than the quality of life and surely everyone in the Universe would need to consult their accountants and wait for the Rebel Alliance budget to be pushed through before being able to determine if they were financially better off. Those scenes of thousands jumping for joy made no sense and did not edit well into the original ending.


WhatMeWookie
I wondered exactly that when I saw the regiged Return of the Jedi. The cheering crowd scenes didn't sit well with me at all. It took me a while to work out why. I think it's because in the three (original) films you don't really see that many peole who really really hate the Empire. I mean sure lots of people have "no great love for the Empire" but only the rebels seem to hate it. Then suddenly stuck in are several scenes of computer ants cheering like they gave a s**t.

I don't have any problem with them knowing what's happened so quickly - just that they did seem like a big bunch of fakers.

[NelsonCoressel]

I guess it's just a matter of perspective. When I first saw ROTJ in '83, I felt let down at the end and wondered "what about the rest of the galaxy?"

I find the new ending of ROTJ to be far more fulfilling.

Anyway, this is getting a tad off topic I guess...

[Winston_Sith]

Originally posted by WhatMeWookie@May 29 2002 - 08:30

I just noticed something curious:

People (at least on this board) who hate the PT, and the SE's of the OT, LIKE the Ewoks, and cry about the removal of "Yub-yub" from the closing sequence of ROTJ??!?!

What up with that?

Your credibility is in sever danger of meltdown with revelations like these. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by Winston_Sith@May 29 2002 - 14:20
People (at least on this board) who hate the PT, and the SE's of the OT, LIKE the Ewoks, and cry about the removal of "Yub-yub" from the closing sequence of ROTJ??!?!

What up with that?

Your credibility is in sever danger of meltdown with revelations like these. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
The Ewoks were originally my least favourite thing about the original trilogy at the time. *But as WhatMeWookie has pointed out they did come to represent the victory of the common people (or common teddy bears in this case) over the evil and technologically advanced Empire. *Their silly teddy bear games of smashing apart the Empire's finest war machines using logs and thick twine was fun.

They weren't my favourite thing, but boy I didn't know when I was well off did I? *

Bottom line? *I'd rather sleep with a hundred Ewoks than kiss one JarJar.

[lotos]

[QUOTE: And also how comes across a whole universe does everyone suddenly unite in glee at the demise of the Emperor or Death Star 2. It would take years for repressed people that had been under the control of an Empire to work out what was great or not. And if they were that annoyed in the first place, why didn't they just stand up, join the rebellion and out number their foes.]

Oh, COME ON!!!

Gosh, you Americans! Do you know anything other than DEMOCRACY?!?!?! Have you ever heard anything about dictatorship and tyranny? Do you know what it means not to have something like FREEDOM OF SPEECH? Let alone a possibility to “stand up and outnumber the foes”. Goodness! Study some history (other than the US) WhatMeWookie!

When you’re under an Empire (like the USSR, Nazi Germany or China) you don’t question whether what’s coming next is going to be better or worse, you just know it’s not going to be as bad as it is. So, when it’s over – YOU REJOICE!


So all right, ATOClowns is not the best movie ever made. It’s not even the best SW movie. It has cliché dialogues and doesn’t have the charm of the old trilogy.

But to be honest, Hollywood is making trash most of the time, with the crappiest dialogues and story lines you could ever imagine. And yet everyone watches them. When was the last time you saw a good, low-budget, European film with a deep plot and sensible dialogues? Oh, and LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL doesn’t count, ‘cause in a sense it was a bad “science-fiction” film. If that’s where you get your history lessons about dictatorship and “standing up”, no wonder you’re making such “thought out” conclusions. You're not interested in the good movies, because you want to be entertained.

But what I really don’t understand is this – why spend a whole week and your precious time on something you hate so much? You hated the film; we got the point. We’re really sorry you threw your toys away. It’s not the last time you’re going to be disappointed about something in life, you know?

I’m a Star Wars fan.

I agree with Darth Badly and WhatMeWookie that ATOC (and TPM) had some disappointing moments.

I’m still a Star Wars fan.


P.S. Don’t take this too personally. I’ve lived under and Empire, so I got a bit too emotional. And it’s natural that you can’t understand it, because you grew up in one of the greatest countries in the world - The United States of America. Be aware people that the same thing that's happening to Anakin in not going to happen to your country. Be the Jedi, try to foresee the dark side. Seriously, great danger I sense.

[moocat]

Gosh, you Americans! Do you know anything other than DEMOCRACY?!?!?! Have you ever heard anything about dictatorship and tyranny? Do you know what it means not to have something like FREEDOM OF SPEECH? Let alone a possibility to “stand up and outnumber the foes”. Goodness! Study some history (other than the US) WhatMeWookie!


This my friend is not a good way to start.

It's hard to not take it personal as you say when your tone is like that.

[NelsonCoressel]

Yeah, that's true moocat. But I must say, lotos is my new hero!
:biggrin: