Vergere

[Cydon]

Discuss Vergere.

[Darth Massacrus]

Makes me wonder: why her for your 300th, and just HOW did she find out Sidious was Palpatine?

[Cydon]

Why 300? Hmmmm... the only fierfekin thing I could think of! I don't know how she knew Palp was Sid but probably something to do with the Zone of Sekot. lol.

[Darth Massacrus]

No, that was AFTER she found out about Sid/Palp. What I think happened is that she infiltrated Palpatines apartment...

[Cydon]

Without him knowing? Be realisitc Darth.

[Darth Massacrus]

well, Vergere DID know how to shrink her prescence in the Force to a microscopic size, so she could perhaps have fooled Sidious. Remember, two of Palpatines close advisors, Sim Aloo and Janus Greejatus, were Force sensitive, so perhaps they guarded the apartment when not 'advising' Palpatine. And perhaps some of Palps' other 'advisors' like Mas Amedda, who knew of Sith Lore, might have been caught with thier guard down by Vergere, who used this as an opening... Really, the whole scenario is plausible...

[Cydon]

You mean implausible.

[DarthSolo]

I still wonder if Lumiya's tale about Vergere being a Sith is fictional just to seduce Jacen. The reference in Tempest to there being more Sith out there at the time of LOTF and the NJO makes it seem like Vergere could have been allied with the Sith, but I'm still a bit skeptical.

[Darth Massacrus]

Ken is Krayt! Ken is Krayt!

Seriously though, getting back to Vergere, how DID she figure out what no other Jedi did, ie, Sidious is Chancellor Palpatine? Perhaps Sifo Diyas figures in?

[Cydon]

Verger was smart. Smarter than Yoda it seems. Maybe she actually decided to look for the Sith in the Force!!!??

[Darth Massacrus]

entirely possible.

[Cydon]

Thanks for the compliment!

[Darth Massacrus]

Perhaps Vergere tells Sifo Diyas of what she knew... or Master Dooku...

[Cydon]

Not Count Doofus, he wasn't that bright once you think of it.

[Darth Massacrus]

well, he was the apprentice Sidious chose...

[Cydon]

Yes, but actually he didn't really choose him Dooka was just a pawn in the grand scheme of things.

[Darth Massacrus]

in the SW galaxy, EVERYTHING is a pawn of the Force, ultimately, unless you completely sever yourself from the Force... aka Darth Traya/Jedi Exile style. But as for Vergere, I really like her tear healing feature...

[Cydon]

Thats pretty cool. Too bad Jacen couldn't master it.

[Darth Massacrus]

didnt Vergere also know how to make poisons with her tears? Perhaps she tried that on Palpatine?

[Cydon]

Maybe thats why she left. ?caught?

[Darth Massacrus]

entirely possible.

[Cydon]

Again, thanks.

[Darth Massacrus]

what are some other scenarios?

[Cydon]

Perhaps she thought that that secret was better kept away from the Jedi Council????

[Darth Massacrus]

buut why? please, elaborate...

[Cydon]

Thought I'd leave that to you...

Council is wise right or so all the Jedi think, perhaps Vergere knew they would handle the wrong way. Remember all that destiny talk of hers in Traitor and Destinys Way? Think for a minute, Mace went right ahead and challenged Sidious with a handful of Jedi, heres Sidious, whos hidden himself for years without the Jedi even knowing. That was not smart. Taking 25 Jedi may not have even been enough. (heck, he's a Sith Lord) Now, if Vergere tells Yoda, his response would mostly like be: "Grave this is, wait and see what happens we must." And no action would be taken until it was to late. So,putting this all together comes out to one thing: Vergere is going to follow her philosophy and wait for "destiny" and "fate" to figure the problem out.

[Soontir Solo]

Vergere is one of the most important and intriguing characters in the EU. Her importance can not be stressed enough as she was the architect of the Yuuzghan Vong's defeat and ultimate survival. Her influence on Jacen directly resulted in the culmination of their defeat and Jacen's rise to power.

With Lumiya basically taking Vergere's place in Jacen's life these days it is intriguing to consider the possibilities if Vergere had lived. Number 1 perhaps Jacen wouldn't have gone dark. Vergere was many things, but she wasn't evil or a dark Jedi or anything like Lumiya is basicaly making her out to be. She was a Jedi of the greatest caliber and I wish she had survived the war. Also her influence on the Jedi Order itself would have been pivotal as her role in Destiny's Way with her arguments with Luke were extremely important, and helped to show Luke what he was doing wrong and what he could do in the future to make things right.

[JMAS]

Yeah, I too wonder if Jacen would have fallen so far to the dark side if Vergere had still been around to guide him. I don't believe Lumiya was being truthful about Vergere being sith. I think she used it to lure Jacen into her court the same way Palpatine did to Anakin by telling him he could create life and sustain life by manipulating the midi-chloreans.

[Darth Massacrus]

Sounds like Vergere was a lot like Darth Traya, then in terms of teachings...

[Cydon]

I agree. If Vergere was there, Jacen probably wouldn't have fallen to the dark side at all.

[Darth Massacrus]

Seems like Jacen and Revan have a lot in common, as do Vergere and Kreia/ Arren Kae/ Darth Traya...

[DarthSolo]

Glad I'm not the only who still thinks Vergere wasn't a Sith, or wasn't evil at all! Tis a good line of thought to follow. Vergere is not the type to get manipulated, nor would she have allowed Jacen to be so manipulated by Lumiya. Her death does seem to have sent an interesting shock wave through the events of the GFFA.

[Darth Massacrus]

Perhaps Lumiya learned of Vergere while an Emperors Hand? And perhaps Vader and Palps told her of Vergere? Entirely POSSIBLE...

[DarthSolo]

Probable, I think. But she likely has more knowledge of Vergere from that, because her tenure as Emperor's Hand ended long before Vergere asserted her influence over Jacen. But, yes, I imagine her knowledge of Vergere comes partially from Palpatine.

[Cydon]

Your probably right...but I don't like it...

[Soontir Solo]

I think Lumiya's knowledge probably comes from a number of sources. Number 1 she has had over 10 years to gather information on Vergere, Jacen, and the others. Given that amount of time she could have done alot of stuff. Vergere was in custody of the intelligence division of the GFFA at one time so there would be files and reports, extensive in fact, in existence which a Dark Lady of the Sith, given enough time, I am sure would be able to procure.

Also Vergere's teachings were widespread among the Jedi and weren't exactly a secret from everyone else which means Lumiya could easily learn alot simply by asking the right questions and keeping in touch with galactic affairs. Another possibility is that at some point she captured some Jedi and was able to extract information from them on Vergere and Jacen. And of course with the kind of power Jacen and Vergere wielded it is possible that Lumiya was able to sense them through the force at some point.

And of course I'll at least allow that it is possible Vergere was allied with Lumiya at one time, though I highly highly doubt this.

[Cydon]

So do I.

[Darth Massacrus]

still, I wonder how Lumiya found out about Vectivus? but thats another thread...

[Cydon]

Yah, another thread Darth...

[DarthSolo]

still, I wonder how Lumiya found out about Vectivus? but thats another thread...
Vectivus could be fiction, too, don't forget.

[Darth Massacrus]

Perhaps Vergere ought to have her own novel...

[DarthSolo]

THAT is something I agree with!

[Darth Massacrus]

if she did, when would it be set? NJO era or Rise of the Empire era?

[Cydon]

Rise of Empire. Where else could we learn of her past?

[Darth Massacrus]

makes me wonder: is the Fosh species extinct?

[Cydon]

Probably not. Good night Darth. I'll try to get those Tagge etc pics up tomorrow.

[Soontir Solo]

I would say the Fosh species isn't extinct. I remember that Droma, the Ryn friend of Han in NJO, said something once along the lines that he had seen that species before in the Corporate Sector or someother system far away from the core.

[Darth Massacrus]

Prhaps they live on in the Cloak of the Sith region, or within the boundaries of an ancient Sith Empire...

[DarthSolo]

Perhaps they live anywhere. Perhaps they are simply wandering. There's no evidence to suggest they live anywhere at all. They never were an immensley populated species, and their homeworld is unknown. They have tried to stay out of sight all the time. And there's no evidence to suggest there's even a Fosh species organization, so I doubt they are clustering in any 'kewl' fanboy region of the galaxy that has no bearing on the current SW situation.

[Soontir Solo]

Yeah they could be wanderers just like the Ryn are.

[Cydon]

With billions of different species in the galaxy, (and elsewhere) it is entirely possible to assume they are not extinct. I'd also like to see a novel about charting the Unknown Regions.

[Darth Massacrus]

Starring Thrawn and the Rakatans?

[Soontir Solo]

I am pretty sure I remember something about there being a novel coming out eventually concerning Thrawn and his exploits in the unknown regions. Zahn is a great writer and people still clamor for more Thrawn, especially after Outbound Flight. I think it is only a matter of time before this comes out.

[DarthSolo]

Another one? Besides Outound Flight? Cool.

[Darth Massacrus]

Yes. It is called Alliegiance.

[Soontir Solo]

I don't think Allegiance is about Thrawn though. I thought it focused primarily on Mara Jade as the Emperors Hand.

I think there will be another one that comes out eventually, something focusing almost entirely on Thrawn where he basically goes about conquering the Unknown Regions.

[Darth Massacrus]

no, Thrawn is to appear in Alliegance, luckily... and perhaps we will see him promoted to Grand Admiral...

[DarthSolo]

I'd heard of Allegiance but I was of the same opinion as Soontir. Though, Zahn's obsession with the characters he created does lead me to believe that Thrawn will share the spotlight with Mara.

[Darth Massacrus]

see the Alliegance specculation thread...

[Cydon]

Check the OSW Forums too.

[Darth Massacrus]

As for Vergere, she is in Cloak of Deception...

[Soontir Solo]

briefly though, and I don't even think she has speaking parts

[Cydon]

She doesn't.

[Soontir Solo]

I wouldn't be surprised if Vergere appears to Jacen sometime in LOTF. I just have a feeling that she is going to appear to him and try to knock some sense into him. Obi-Wan appeared to Luke 5 years after the Battle of Endor in the beginning of the Thrawn Trilogy so I don't think it is unrealistic to think Vergere might appear to Jacen. It may be like 12 years since she died, but then again I won't underestimate the power of teh force.

[Cydon]

That would be nice.

[DarthSolo]

I wouldn't be surprised if Vergere appears to Jacen sometime in LOTF. I just have a feeling that she is going to appear to him and try to knock some sense into him. Obi-Wan appeared to Luke 5 years after the Battle of Endor in the beginning of the Thrawn Trilogy so I don't think it is unrealistic to think Vergere might appear to Jacen. It may be like 12 years since she died, but then again I won't underestimate the power of teh force.
That's something I hadn't eve thought of. I would love for that to happen.

[Cydon]

Or perhaps we'll have one of those Daala situations. Thought dead but not really.

[DarthSolo]

If you read Vergere's death in Destiny's Way then you would pretty much know she died. She crashed an A-Wing into a bunch of YV, then appeared to Jacen afterwards to comfort him. She's dead, but she could very likely reapear.

[Cydon]

I read it. But you never know...

[Soontir Solo]

In this case it would be a ridiculous move to have Vergere reappear in the flesh. Her death in Destiny's Way was pretty clear-cut, not like Daala's, Isard's, or other's who ended up coming back from situations we thought they had died from.

Also if Vergere had lived she definitely wouldn't have waited 12 years to come back to Jacen.

[Darth Massacrus]

then again, she made no attempt to return to the galaxy in the half century plus since the Zonama Sekot incident and the Vong War...

[Cydon]

True, but I think I'm going to side with Soontir. Now that I think about it...

[Soontir Solo]

That half a century was spent learning all she could about the Yuuzghan Vong so that when they invaded she would have the knowledge of how to defeat them/save them. If you read Rogue Planet you know that she went with them voluntarily to learn about them. Had she not done this Zonama Sekot may have been defeated in that book and the Yuuzghan Vong would surely have won the war 50 years later when they invaded.

[Cydon]

I read RP. Are you sure that the GFFA would have lost? Alpha Red would of killed the Vong.

[DarthSolo]

I don't think the GFFA would ever have used Alpha Red, at least not in a large enough capacity to wipe them all out. And, it would be pretty difficult to contaminate an entire people. Even if they did get a pretty big spread, the YV shapers probably would have been able to counter it.

[Darth Massacrus]

or perhaps they had some of Vergere's tears stored away, and could have simply neutered the effects of Alpha Red...

[Cydon]

I doubt it. Its never mentioned that Jacen had any. I think Alpha Red was most appropriate though. (Imperial mind speaking)

[Darth Massacrus]

back to Vergere appearing as a Force Ghost. Sonce she was apparently Sith, perhaps she knew the techniques that the Ancient Sith used to preserve thier spirits? Maybe her force ghost will resonate throughout the millennia or appear much later. It would not be unheard of, for Master Vodo Siosk- Baas' ghost appeared millennia after his death, and he was Jedi...

[Cydon]

That would be cool. Or maybe she'll turn into a tree hiding lightsabers. :lol:

[DarthSolo]

I still don't think she's a Sith! So, I don't think we'll be seeing her come back as a Force ghost, unless she convened with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, or Yoda on the subject. (or possibly Luke, off-page).

[Morridini]

So do u think Lumiya was telling the truth? Was Vergere really a Sith trainee?

[DarthSolo]

No, I think she was lying. It's the perfect tactic to get Jacen. Vergere is his most notable tutor. Say she was a Sith, preparing him for his Sith destiny and that her entire life was dedicated to that cause, and Jacen's hooked. He can't prove Lumiya wrong just as Lumiya can offer no proof. There is no definitive evidence (as of yet) to point to either. So it's the perfect thing to say to get Jacen on your side.

[Darth Massacrus]

But how did Lumiya find out about Vergere? Perhaps from Sidious, when she was an Emperors Hand?

[Morridini]

Hmm, that is actually important to consider.

If Verger was not a Sith, then there should be no way for Lumiya to know about her. She disappeared from the galaxy long before Lumiya was even born, and as she is as old as Luke she probably wouldn't have access to any of the Jedi Temple info about one Jedi who left the known galaxy.

However if Vergere was a Sith, then it's much more probable that she would end up with the info about Vergere somehow.

[DarthSolo]

We know that Lumiya is a Sith, and do you not think Sidious kept tabs on prominent and mysterious Jedi? Lumiya would have access to any information the Sith had on Vergere, not to mention any access to information the New Jedi Order has (ie, from Jacen, himself). And you can bet that the news media covered Jacen's return from captivity in depth (and the Knighting ceremony that followed). So, it's not like Vergere's identity is all that hidden from the galaxy at large.

[Cydon]

Except you'd actually have to LOOK for references of Vergere.

[DarthSolo]

I dunno about that, but I'll accept it for now. And...why wouldn't Lumiya? I garuntee you if she's looking into strong Force users, Vergere's name is going to show up. And if not, obviously Jacen's name did. And in Jacen's files, will appear Vergere's name and some stuff about her. The Sith, being the cunning individuals that they are, see the perfect opportunity and can easily get the necesary information. The Sith are resourceful, folks. It is a very plausible theory that Vergere's Sithiness is a complete viction, as may be the story of Darth Vectivus.

Oh, and another reason I'm fairly certain Lumiya has got to be lying is this: Aaron Allston was interviewed before the release of Betrayal and in that interview, he was asked if someone could actually do what Jacen wants to do: become a benevolent Sith. Allston said that no, he didn't think that was possible, IIRC. Now, look at Betrayal. Lumiya tells the story of Vectivus, the benevolent Sith. This book is written by Allston. Allston said essentially that Vectivus' character simply could not have existed. Therefore, Allston's statements tell us that Lumiya is lying about Vectivus to make Jacen believe that the Sith way is a possible way to goodness. That makes it obvious (as if it wasn't already) that Lumiya is very willing to weave fictions to seduce Jacen to the darkside, ie Vergere's sithdom.

[Darth Massacrus]

well, with the canonicalities policy at Lucas, IE later materials take precedence, the Vectivus story could be real....

[Cydon]

You know what I say to Lucas Policy? Go to hell. :devil:

[Darth Massacrus]

never bite the hand that feeds or belittle the minds that deliver...

[Cydon]

:nono: Oh, shut up....:wink:

[Darth Massacrus]

ah well, getting back to Vergere, perhaps in Legacy we will see more Fosh? This could also include the comics...

[Cydon]

Even Better: Finding the homeworld of the Fosh in the Unknown Regions.

[Darth Massacrus]

well, you must remember, Vergeres Jedi Master, Thracia Cho-Leem, was there when Vergere hatched, so that quote (see Rouge Planet) could be heavily elaborated upon....

[Cydon]

Really? I forgot about that.

[Darth Massacrus]

yeah, seems to happen a lot. reminds me of the old which came first: the egg or the avian riddle...

[Cydon]

:lol: :rofl:

[Darth Massacrus]

and just WHERE would this hatching have happenned?

[Cydon]

:scratchchin:

[Darth Massacrus]

comeon, where DS and HS and MDI when you need ideas????

[Cydon]

?

[DarthSolo]

well, with the canonicalities policy at Lucas, IE later materials take precedence, the Vectivus story could be real....
The canonocity has nothing to do with anything. The Vectivus story, weather true or false, does not, to my knowledge, contradict any material, and therefore is not in competition for verification. My point is that it's very likely that Lumiya has been lying to Jacen all along. No one seems to be responding against that theory anymore, so I'll assume I've convinced you all.

And, come on guys. Don't get back into the habbit of derailing threads and/or posint one word (or one symbol) replies. That's spamming. Stay on topic and don't say anything if you aren't going to contribute in any way. And don't expect people to be online responding instantaneously.

Now, let's make sure to stay on topic!

[Cydon]

Yes Colonel....And yes, you have convinced me.

[Darth Massacrus]

alright, but I still believe that Vectivus was real....

[DarthSolo]

I honestly hope he is real, at least part of me does. I want Jacen to be succesful in trying to be like Vectivus. I just don't think it's very likely.

[Darth Massacrus]

yeah, me too....

[Braden Dar]

(Due to lack of time to read online) is this the same Vergere from the NJO that was helping the Vong, but then gave that short-term remedy to Mara? Or are you discussing another character of the same or similar name?

[DarthSolo]

Same Vergere.

[Braden Dar]

Then I guess I shouldn't read the thread to keep the suspense of what happens in the NJO.

Thanks DS.

[DarthSolo]

How far into the NJO are you, Braden?

[Braden Dar]

I finished Edge Of Victory I before running out of books.

Salivating for the rest.

But my Madden football and the draft will have to hold me over for now.

[Darth Nameless]

madden and fantasy football will do that to a person...consumes all my time when not working :D

[Braden Dar]

Since this is a Vergere thread, let me ask something slightly to topic...

Where is the storyline featuring:
(A) Luke and Mara's wedding.
and
(B) When/where/how Mara contracts this disease.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

And is there any further information on Vergere's species?
Such as who they are/were, where they came from, and how Vergere came to be in the company of a Vong.

[DarthSolo]

Luke and Mara's wedding was in the comic series like right before the NJO. I don't read the comics, so hopefully someone else can inform you as to the title.

I believe that Nom Anor gave her the disease, and I think I recall that this also happened in the aforementioned comic. He appeared in some comic before the NJO.

On Vergere, you can get a bit of a glimpse of her in the book Rogue Planet, which takes place between Eps I and II. Also, Outbound Flight might discuss it a tiny bit?

On Vergere's species: she's a Fosh. Besides the NJO, I dunno what books/comics deal with them, but you can always wookieepedia it!

[Darth Nameless]

nom anor did give her the virus

and anyone by chance know what comic the wedding was in?

[Morridini]

Yeah, it was a four issue mini-series called Union (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Union)

[Braden Dar]

Okay. I knew Nom Anor gave Mara the illness. But I hadn't caught anything on the when and where except for Anor's revelation on Duro about some big celebration/event where all of the infected were dosed.

I read Rogue Planet, but don't recall Vergere. Perhaps I'll check it out again and read through.

I admit I am intigued by this whole Palpatine angle, but I'll just have to find the books and learn as I go.

And regardless of them being "canon", I don't think I have an interest in any of the comics. I'll stick with the novels and hope for something to fill me in on the rest.

[Darth Nameless]

thanks Morridini...ill have to look for the comics

plus comics just kinda fill in the story between books they are just nice to read if you really want to get into cannon

[Morridini]

And they tell some pretty good stories, if you ever decide to try any comics Braden, you should try the Tales of the Jedi series, taking place 4000+BBY (a bit old-style drawings, but great).

[Darth Nameless]

i would also recommend the knights of the old republic books

[Morridini]

Indeed, and if you want somnething a bit more adult, go for Dark Times.

[Sam Kenobi]

IIRC, Vergere was a pretty important part of the picture in Rogue Planet.

[Braden Dar]

I haven't re-read that book yet, but I grow more intigued by the mention of her/its importance. As I hadn't ventured into the NJO at the time, I all but ignored non-core characters, focusing instead on Anakin and Obi-wan and Tarkin, etc.

Sounds like I missed half of the book in retrospect.

I guess I should stop by the Hindsight thread and participate in a discussion on closed-mindedness. LOL

[Morridini]

Well I will just point out that I've enver read Rogue Planet, and I didn't feel like I ever missed out on anything. The NJO books do a good job of explainign what happened back then, having read RP would just have been a bonus.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Rogue Planet is my least favourite SW book so far (I have read up to ANH). I didn't like it at all. Vergere sounds like an interesting character though, it'll be interesting to see what happens with her later!

[Darill Cyllem]

^You liked Jedi Trial more than Rogue Planet??
*goes back to check JMH's thread, which hasn't been updated in far too long*

[sharyntyre]

Vergere became my (almost) favorite Jedi by the time I finished the NJO series. Alot of her philosophy rings with the same truths I'm learning in my personal spiritual walk. Now if only I could tap into the Force....

I'd Love to see a book, or two with her as the lead. Who was her master, who helped shape her beliefs about the Force, and the moral use of it? How did she become a trusted "pet" to a priestess among the Vong?

Why am I up at 430am?

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^You liked Jedi Trial more than Rogue Planet??
*goes back to check JMH's thread, which hasn't been updated in far too long*

I think that I disliked Rogue Planet more, but Jedi Trial was more poorly written. I think the Rogue Planet thing is just personal taste. Yeah, I know, I have about 6 reviews to write for my thread. I certainly won't get round to writing any for at least another 10 days, I do know I need to revive it though! :)

[Darill Cyllem]

I'd Love to see a book, or two with her as the lead. Who was her master, who helped shape her beliefs about the Force, and the moral use of it? How did she become a trusted "pet" to a priestess among the Vong?

That would be interesting.
I hope Stover writes it.

I think that I disliked Rogue Planet more, but Jedi Trial was more poorly written.
Alright, fair enough. I couldn't get far enough past the writing in Jedi Trial to even think about the story. And i'd read the entire NJO before Rogue Planet, so I think that makes a big difference, too.
And you do have lots of reviews to write! Get going! :whip: