Anakin & Obi-Wan

[Kafer]

Well, I've never had much luck starting a thread that people actually want to post in (except Lame Trivia) so, I expect a few posts and this thread to die in a couple of days.

But, it's been mentioned in a couple of other threads about Anakin's and Obi-Wan's relationship. And while, I'm still on Allergy medication and the brain isn't working as good as it normally does, I'll open this thread and hope others will join.

Also, has anyone's opinion of either Jedi changed from TPM to AotC. I saw Anakin as a selfish little brat in TPM. I see Anakin as a selfish big brat in AotC. (God, I hate whiners.)

And Obi-Wan I always thought kind of an innocent through the whole trilogy. And while I still don't think it should be blamed totally on Obi-Wan for Anakin's fall, he does play a small part.

I firmly believe we are all responsible for our own actions. Anakin falls because Anakin chooses to. But would he have fallen so hard if Obi-Wan would have been a tad more sympathetic to him? Only Lucas knows I guess.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm going to go gather my thoughts and come back with a coherent post. But if anyone else would like to kick this off, please feel free to.

[Polunis]

I suppose I will be the first one to reply style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

Well, I've never had much luck starting a thread that people actually want to post in (except Lame Trivia) so, I expect a few posts and this thread to die in a couple of days.

On the contrary, I think this is a pertinent thread; I am surprised it has not extracted more of a response.

I am not as favorable to Obi-Wan as most are, for he has plenty of his own personal problems. I noticed how he was moved by hate in his battle with Maul; hardly the proper response of a Jedi. There is indeed a bit of jealousy between Obi-Wan and Anakin, but I do notice there is a friendship; however, this movie alludes to it shallowly and sparingly. I will think of something better to say soon, but I am rather tired.

Thank you for starting this thread.

[padmehlc]

I agree it is an important thread - I just want to see the film in English - ie understand what they are saying before trying to comment on this one - Obi's dubber stunk the big one...

[Kafer]

Hmmmm..... Interesting.....Polunis. I did not get a sense of Jealousy from Obi-Wan. And, yes, I believe that right after Qui-Gon died he was moved by hate, but as he was hanging from the convienent light fixture, he had to quiet his feelings to defeat the foe. Where as Anakin, jumped in with both feet to his anger and hatred and slaughtered a whole village. Many of them "innocents." I'd love to hear why you think there's jealousy. Maybe I can look for the signs during my next viewing.

If there is Jealousy, I think it's on Anakins part. He's jealouse, from a certain point of view, ;) of Obi-Wan's freedom as a Master. But, that's not an accurate description.

And just to play devils advocate here, and to assume for a moment, that Anakin was a selfLESS child in TPM. "He gives without any thought of himself." (Still don't believe it, but I'll debate that he was.) We don't see any of that in AotC. His every action is for himself.

I've had a similar debate with a friend about Anakin. She stated that in AotC Anakin is still redeemable. I agree, he still is, if he's willing to give up everything. Padme, his hatred, his arrogance, his relationship with Palpatine. However, he's not. If he really wanted to be a Jedi, he would be making more sacrifices. I don't think he ever wanted to be an actual Jedi. He just wanted training to become powerful.

Okay, my thoughts are getting scattered again.

Let's see. Obi-Wan. He's got a tough job. A job I don't think even Yoda could handle. A job I don't think anyone could handle except Palp. Only because he would encourage the arrogance and the anger. So, Obi-Wan puts forth a good effort. He even seeks advice from the council. And really he doesn't get much help from them. If anything the council hinders Obi-Wan's job. Obi knew he wasn't ready for the assignment, and yet the council ignores his objections and sends him anyway. Perhaps the council is more to blame for Anakin's downfall than Obi-Wan. If Obi would have been there, on Tattoine, he might have been able to stop Anakin from slaughtering the Tuskens.

Okay, lots of speculation and more scattered thoughts. Let me re-group, and I'll be back.

[MJADE042385]

Ok, I think that obi-wan should listen to anakin and not tell him how to feel and what to do all the time. if he did listen he could have realized the road anakin was taken. I also think that obi-wan was jealous of anakin because obi-wan could feel how Padme felt for anakin.

With palpatine, he is anakins father figure more than obi-wan is. Palpatine listens to anakins feelings and he uses them to bend anakin to the dark side.

[Kafer]

I still don't get how you think Obi is jealous of Ani. Is there some nuance I'm just not picking up on?

And the listening thing needs to go both ways. If Ani would listen to Obi, and show some respect then maybe Obi could help him.

I watched the movie again yesterday, putting away my prejudices of Anakin. And I see a bit more good in Anakin now, than I saw in TPM. I saw the friendship that Obi and Ani shared. The joking, the gentle jibes. I can see why Ani thinks of him as a father. Palpy right now is just someone who is encouraging his darker feelings. I think in EPIII we'll see Palpy becoming the father figure.

[DanielSkywalker]

Yeah, upon viewing AOTC the first time, i noticed how Anakin's attitude shifted from a kind and generous 10 year old boy to a whiny, selfish, rebellious adolescent. He definitely has not learned his place. He is a padawan not a master. I don't think Anakin ever forgave the Jedi for "taking him away" from his mother. I believe that Shmi's death will hang over his head all throughout EPIII and he will always consider Obi-Wan to be somewhat responsible for what happened to her. Although, I don't see why. I'm sure we all remember the quote from AOTC: "it's all his fault, he's holding me back" (this quote was of course Anakin talking about Obi-Wan. I'm not sure if I got the quote exact).

As for Obi-Wan, I don't think he should be condemned for what happened to Anakin. I believe I've stated my opinion on this before in another thread somewhere, though I don't remember which one. Anakin is just a loose cannon, perhaps Obi-Wan should have been more discerning, but, i believe that there was very little anyone could have done to stop Anakin from making his decision to choose the dark path.

[Vyndim]

I disagree...I believe they could have prevented Anakin's fall. All the warning signs were there, but the council refused to believe them. They knew he was arrogant, they knew he didn't like to follow the rules, they knew he would be rebellious and yet they didn't do anything at all. The council sat idle while events around unfolded totally oblivious to everything going around them. Not to mention, for Obi-Wan it should have very clear that Anakin was headed down a dark path, but Obi-Wan did very little to deture him from it. He knew very well he was head strong and on several occasions they even argued about it...Personally I think the council and others around Anakin chose not to see the truth.

[looceefir]

I agree with Vyndim. They knew he was potentially the most powerful Jedi ever, Yoda/Mace knew there were problems in the Force - hell Anakin could've been at fault for it, so they should have done more, paid closer attention. Could be that as others have suggested the rise of the Dark Side was necessary to force the Jedi into a more effective capacity.

Thinking about it Yoda's perception of his slaughter could lead to a one-on-one in Ep III, with Yoda trying to guide him more effectively, but can't complete the job because of other distractions.

[Vyndim]

Looceefir brings up a good point. *Anakin has the possiblity of becoming the most powerful jedi ever, and yet he received no special guidance or anything. *No one from the council or any other jedi besides Obi-Wan even attemped to guide Anakin. *The council and others appeared to see Anakin as a "normal" jedi, but they knew very well he was not. *He showed remarkable talent and the council did nothing. *If he was supposed to bring balance to the force, why wasn't the council giving him any special attention? Isn't it logical that they would give the possible Chosen One special attention?*Its impossible to blame the fall of the jedi on Anakin, they had the chance to stop and prevent it, they chose not to. *Through their own ignorance they were destroyed. *But perhapes this is the way it was supposed to happen. *It almost seems as though things were out Anakins hands and no matter what happened, he was intended to fall...*shrug*

[Meche]

I think Obi-Wan has matured since TPM, and Anakin got worse. I didn't think he was selfish in TPM, he was quite willing to give all his prize money to Qui-Gon in order to pay for the parts he needed, and convince Watto to let him race. That was what Qui-Gon meant about Anakin being a giving person.

Obi-Wan was of course really angry with Maul, but I think that he did quiet his mind before calling Qui-Gon's lightsaber to him. He learned a lot from the duel with Maul.

Obi-Wan may have been a little jealous. Ever since Qui-Gon was so interested in Anakin's potential power, I mean. But Obi-Wan eventually learned that what Anakin made up in power and potential, he severely lacked in wisdom and discipline. I'm sure this annoyed Obi-Wan and he really wanted Anakin to realize that too. I can see how Obi-Wan would get so dang frustrated.

I think Anakin's fall is mostly his own fault but partly everyone else's. Anakin was responsible for his actions. Amidala was responsible for hers. Obi-Wan himself admits he was wrong about being able to train a Jedi as well as Yoda could. And the council is IMHO quite lax.

[Vyndim]

Alright, Obi-Wan does mature since the time of the TPM. He becomes wiser and he does learn alot after losing Qui-Gon. I don't Anakin gets "worse" however. He does change though. He takes that ambitious spirit he had as a child and takes it to the next level. His change developes his character and shows openly that behind the light side of him, there is a shadow. For me, it seemed his turning point was the loss of his mother...The rage and hatred he displayed afterwards was VERY clear. And Padme, after hearing he slaughtered an entire camp didn't say anything of this to anyone? Naiive of her. And his views on the senate? Suggesting the dictatorship was a subtle hint. Not to mention, after Padme falls out of the ship during the last battle, he willing to be expelled from the Academy just for her, that seemed like a subtle hint too.

Is Anakin responsible for his own actions? Yes and no. Anakin knows what he is doing and is councious about it. Remember though, he has Palpatine looking over his shoulder the entire time. Sure, Obi-Wan admits that he was not as good a master as he should have been, but thats no excuse for letting what happened happen. There is a different between being a poor master and ignorance. There were an abundance of warnings that Anakin had a dark side to him. And there were pleanty of times in which Obi-Wan could have acted to help change the path Anakin was on. Obi-Wan was simply blind like everyone else and chose to think that it was just a "phase" or something similiar.

[MJADE042385]

Here is how I see it, Yoda knows something is going on with Anakin but doesn't know for sure. You can see that the council is just standing by and doing nothing thing. If they would pay more attention to Anakin and help Obi-Wan out he might not have turned bad. Obi-Wan is trying to hard to be what the council wants him to be and not what he needs to be. He needs to see past Anakin's suface and get to the heart. The part that needs to get out. If Anakin lets his feels show to everyone else maybe he can control it more. Just food for thought.

[Vyndim]

So Yoda senses something with Anakin but fails to conduct any elaboration on it, poor choice if you ask me. I like what MJAD..etc said about Obi-Wan, he was acting how the council wanted him to instead of how he needed to. Perfect example. Had he not listened to ignorant council, he might have possibly prevented the whole thing. BTW, Seeing lots of nice input on this thread. ;)

[MJADE042385]

If Yoda can sense his pain for lightyears away. maybe he felt that other than the lose of his mother that something is wrong.

[DanielSkywalker]

I'm not saying that Anakin is inherrently evil or that Obi-Wan or the Jedi council are doing everything possible to guide Anakin. I just don't feel it's fair to put too much blame on Kenobi or the council for Anakin's eventual downfall. Really, what would they say to him? Don't turn to the dark side? They may know that Anakin and Palpy are somewhat close, but they don't know that Palpy is the Sith Master. Yoda did sense Anakin's pain when his mother died, but none of us are sure if Yoda sensed his hatred.

I still feel that Obi-Wan is not to blame. Sidious is far too cunning and deceitful. He will have his way with Anakin, and I'm not too sure that after whatever horrible events bring Anakin to the dark side anyone will be able to change Anakin's mind. Mr. Lucas will make Anakin a sympathetic character, meaning that any normal person would have made the same decision as Anakin if he/she were presented with the same scenario.

[Vyndim]

I don't think Yoda sensed anything else other than Anakin's pain and suffering. Had Yoda sensed something else, wouldn't it have been hate? Anakin clearly states after he slaughtered the Tuskens that he hates them.

[MJADE042385]

I am not saying Obi-Wan is to blame or the council. All I am saying maybe there is something they are seeing and can't put their hand on it. They know something is afoot.

[Kafer]

I think even Obi knows something is going on with Anakin. I think he tried to bring in to the at lest Mace and Yoda's attention, albeit ever so subtly. And since they did, really nothing, to help Obi, he turns to the only guidance he knows. How Qui-Gon treated him when he was a Padawan. So, if we assume that at one time Obi was headstrong as he eludes to in ESB, perhaps Qui-Gon was always telling him to "learn his place".

So, Obi, sensing that Anakin is struggling and become arrogant and getting no help from the council falls back on what he knows.

I also like the idea that Looceefir brought up. Maybe Anakin is the reason the Jedi are having a problem with the Force. And I believe that Anakin has to fall to bring balance. However, did he have to fall so hard? Did he have to kill all the Jedi?

Okay, rambling again......

[Justin]

Ok. Anakin's turn to the dark side and his subsequent murder of the Jedi is one person's fault: Anakin's.

Everyone is free to make their own decisions. Other people can influence you, but ultimately every choice you make is solely up to you. Saying "I had no choice" is a cop out, and the ultimate self-deceit.

So stop blaming Obi-Wan, or Yoda, or Palpatine, or the soggy fruit loops that put Anakin in a bad mood this morning.

Anakin is a pissy little psycho brat, and I can't wait to see Obi-Wan kick his whining ass in Episode III.

[Vyndim]

Good Observation, Obi-Wan could have been head strong like Kafer posted. So reverts to his own teachings as a hope to teach Anakin his place.

As to having Anakin fall a necesity, yes I believe that to a point. I believe the Jedi needed some kind of wake up call to remind them of their duty. They had clearly forgotten what it meant to be a jedi. I feel Anakin was a victim of circumstance. If he was destined to bring balance to the force, perhapes there could have been another way to do it, without Anakin becoming Vader? I think that with the circumstances Anakin was thrown in, any person regardless would have been helpless and done the same, of course this statement just reiterates what Daniel posted about making Anakin a sympathetic character.

[Vyndim]

Justin- I don't think thats a fair statement to make. Given what we have seen, I don't think his actions were all his own. You totally deny that everyone around Anakin had no affect on him. Anakin was naiive, and because of that he trusted those close to him. One preticular person was Palpatine, he knew exactly what to say to get Anakin on his side or to coax Anakin along. Now saying that he didn't have to listen to everyone is like saying that someone didn't have to listen their parents, or school teachers, or friends, etc.

[Winston_Sith]

Originally posted by Vyndim@May 25 2002 - 16:57

:::Anakin has the possiblity of becoming the most powerful jedi ever, and yet he received no special guidance or anything. *No one from the council or any other jedi besides Obi-Wan even attemped to guide Anakin. *The council and others appeared to see Anakin as a "normal" jedi, but they knew very well he was not. *He showed remarkable talent and the council did nothing. *
They probably didn't want Anakin to think of himself as special, even though they knew (or at least, were waiting for solid, non-disputable evidence) that he was the Chosen One. Sure, Anakin was arrogant in AotC, but think of the egomaniacal monster he would have been, if he had been caudled and catered-to all the way from his first entrance into the Jedi Order?

Besides, I'm sure Yoda was pretty happy with his "#1 Jedi in the Galaxy" position, and didn't want some young upstart messing it up for him. LOL

[JocastaNu]

I don't think Obi-Wan can really have this laid at his feet. He did the best he could and I'd be hard pressed to believe that any of the other Jedi we've seen would have done better, except possibly for Yoda.

We are shown occassions when Obi-Wan shows concern for his padawan, personal concern, in a way which we saw neither from Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan, nor from Yoda to Luke. I'm thinking of the attempt to cheer Anakin up in the lift on the way to Padme's apartment and Obi-Wan concern for Anakin's tiredness and his attempt to comfort him on Padme's balcony.

Even there in the lift, it's subtle but what we have is Anakin showing his need to constantly try and "one up" his master because he feels the need to press that he "saved" him. Yet Obi-Wan simply is amused, he obviously feels no sense of belittlement, either because it didn't happen quite how Anakin is remembering it or because he simply looks on it as an adventure they had together.

Anakin is the one who is in competition with Obi-Wan, I sensed no competition from Obi-Wan towards Anakin. Anakin is also projecting his own jealousy onto Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan isn't jealous of him. He cares about his padawan, he isn't petty. He isn't still harboring something that lasted a matter of a day ten years ago. Remember, he apologized to Qui-Gon quite sincerely for his behavior. Prior to what happened when Qui-Gon dispatched Obi-Wan in front of the Council, Obi-Wan showed no personal animosity towards Anakin whatever. He smiled and shook his hand when they met. His conversation with Qui-Gon on the balcony simply stated the fact that Anakin was too old AND Obi-Wan's concern for Qui-Gon, nothing personally against Anakin at all. And his "pathetic lifeform" comment was simply a bad joke at his master's expense, he had no idea WHO Qui-Gon was planning on bringing back at that point until after he said it. It was never something deeply personal when it came to Anakin and Obi-Wan isn't the sort to do anything half heartedly, we can feel pretty safe in saying he devoted himself fully to the training of his padawan on all the levels he was able to.

These things that Anakin says are examples of how his own insecurities affect his "point of view". He has to believe Obi-Wan is jealous of him, because if he isn't then Anakin can't blame Obi-Wan for his problems, then he has to face the possibility that perhaps Obi-Wan is correct and that he isn't really ready yet and he isn't as good as he thinks he is. Then he might have to actually start taking Obi-Wan seriously when he tries to teach him. This would also severely curtail his dreamed of relationship with Padme and his quest for more power. And I do agree with Kafer on this, I don't think Anakin was every truly training to be a Jedi, not in his heart. It was always about having more power, again shown in his need to compete with Obi-Wan, who as his master has "power" over him.

[looceefir]

There's something to be said for Justin's free will view, but ultimately i agree with Vyndim that his actions were influenced unduly by many around him. In the scope of the 6 films he had the traditional hero's tragic flaw that caused him to fall, but he had enough hero in him to redeem himself and restore the balance in the force.

One thing i thought about was in terms of the Jedi Council. Perhaps they didn't intervene more because they couldn't. It seems to be highly bureaucratised with rules and procedures, which is one reason why it was necessary to destroy this institution - it had become stagnant. This bureaucratisation was obviously necessary - it wouldn't have survived as long as it did without procedures. Unfortunately this process often gets out of control, and obscures the true work of an organisation. This happened with the Council. This was shown by their nearly not training Anakin. Maybe once a Padawan is taken he only takes teaching from his master? Hence he doesn't get as much guidance as is necessary for one of his power.

[Meche]

Originally posted by Justin@May 25 2002 - 22:54
Anakin is a pissy little psycho brat, and I can't wait to see Obi-Wan kick his whining ass in Episode III.
LOL, can't really disagree there. Anakin's evil deeds are his own fault. I was fairly unclear about my opinion though. It's not Anakin's fault that he doesn't see through Palpy, it's not evil of him if he's manipulated in certain ways. However, if Ani does something evil, whether it's killing or whatever, then it is Ani's responsibility whether he was manipulated or provoked or not.

When I say it was partly the fault of others, I don't mean it's their fault he's evil. I do think though that the council should have kept an eye on him and took necessary steps with the Padawan. They talk and talk about how arrogant Jedi are, why don't they do something about it? If Obi-Wan says Anakin is extremely headstrong and has too little wisdom and discipline to go with his Force ability, then there has to be something to be done about it.

And I don't see why Ani would blame the Jedi for Shmi's death. Anakin wanted to be a Jedi all his life, and he freely chose to go with Qui-Gon. Shmi himself encouraged him to follow whichever path he wished. If anyone is to blame for Anakin being separated from his mother for ten years, it's just himself. He chose to leave, and I'm pretty sure he hates himself.

[Vyndim]

Its my belief that Anakin was never inherently evil. *It was pretty clear he wasn't evil to begin with. *The part about him leaving his mother, the reason is pretty obvious. * Anakin had a connection with his mother, which was shown by him having dreams of her. *However, Anakin could have stayed with his mother, but that would have meant living as a slave *as he could not free his mother, also he stated he wanted to be a jedi all his life.

I think its pretty clear that the circumstances and situations that were placed before Anakin are what turned him evil. *Sure, he was arrogant, headstrong, and upredictable. *But as stated so where many other jedi. *The death of his mother, whom he had an apperent deep connection scarred him and I think thats what started his downward spiral. *I can see why he would bame the jedi. *He feels that he was ready for the trails. *In his mind had he passed the trials, he wouldn't have been stuck trailing Obi-Wan and he would have been able to save his mother. *Not to mention he believes he would have had the power to do so. *

Second the idea that the one person he has left, Padme. The one person he is obsessed with is seen as forbidden and that he cannot have her. *He eventually does get her, but I think a bit of foreshadowing was done when he said "it would destroy us" and it most certainly does. *I think we'll get more answers in Episode III then I can make my final judgement.

[Justin]

Vyndim, you [I]dont have to listen to what your parent's teachers, and friends tell you. You choose to listen to them or you don't. Or at least you choose whether or not to take their advice.

[Vyndim]

Justin, I agree with you on that point. You don't have to listen to anyone's advice. However I think that normally, if you trust someone enough, you will listen to their advice or opinions since it is most likely that someone would see no reason to go against the advice of a trusted friend/family member/etc if they don't directly conflict your interests.

[WayoftheGungon]

Personally I think Anakin is already Vader. He was a good kid when he was around his mom, but as a kid he still was whiny and got his way (look at him getting to be in the pod race) and then of course Obi Won takes over as the father figure, but once again Anakin does his own thing, has his own opinions. He already believes in a dictatorship as he clearly stated to padme. Even though th people around him try hard to do him right, he can't help but be cocky. And he always gets what he wants like I already stated, look at how him and padme ended up by the end of the film. I think that people can only do so much for somebody they choose themselves what kind of person they are going to grow up to be and Anakin seems to have already choosen.

[Vyndim]

Again, I disagree. *I don't think Anakin becomes Vader until he falls completely, not through his action as a padawan or child.

WayoftheGungon, you use the pod race as an example of him being "whiny." To elaborate on that, the only reason he offered to join the race was so that he could help Qui-Gon and his associates, that doesn't sound "whiny" to me. *Second his views on the dictator ship, I'll give you that one, however I think the idea was meant with a more niiave fashion then was taken. *Third, I don't think the people around him tried at all, with the exception of Obi-Wan. *Many of them just simply didn't listen to what was going around them. *Fourth you bring up Padme. *Well he did get what he wanted, but so did she apperently. So to use that an example I think isn't totally valid as she chose him also. *I think thats everything.

[Badass Leia]

I agree that Anakin could have been saved from the Dark Side. I was also wondering myself why Anakin didn't get any special attention considering he was the chosen one and they all very well knew it. Qui-Gon would have kept Anakin on track, but I am still not blaming Obi-wan for the whole thing. It was also the Jedi Council. Anakin was showing a huge attitude in AOTC. In TPM he was showing signs of fear and sorrow, now it has grown into anger and hate. He also has a passion for Padme. Jedi's cannot marry and he does so. He is not doing any of the rules. The Jedi Council must have sensed this in him and done something about it, but of what knowledge I have, they didn't make a huge effort. As Vyndim said, they need a wake up call.

[JocastaNu]

Qui-Gon would have kept Anakin on track,

Actually no he wouldn't have. Lucas says in an interview for the TPM DVD that what Anakin is missing in his training with Obi-Wan he would have been missing in his training with Qui-Gon, basically it's all related to Master Yoda. Yoda trains all the younglings and because Anakin started too old, he missed this. I guess they fix this by having Yoda take part in Luke's training. Well, you might say, Dooku went to the Dark Side and he was Yoda's padawan--well, I might say, maybe this is Lucas' way of saying we, and that includes Anakin, are responsible for our own actions and neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda can ultimately be blamed for them.

And let's face it, Qui-Gon really was no more patient than Obi-Wan, perhaps he was even less so. Obi-Wan at least has practice of putting up with someone who never listens to him, his master always blew him off too. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif Qui-Gon showed little patience when all Obi-Wan did was disagree with him in what was essentially private, he wasn't trying to userp his authority during an assignment like Anakin did to Obi-Wan in Padme's apartment.

[looceefir]

I don't think you can say he is Vader yet either. He's not done anything inherently evil. He tried to save Obi Wan, in fact he did save him, he lost an arm for his cause. Sure he's selfish and misguided at times - the Padme thing - but that's a natural trait. No one is noble on instinct.

[JocastaNu]

in fact he did save him, he lost an arm for his cause.

Ah but the only reason Obi-Wan in that position is because Anakin didn't listen to him in the first place. :) Obi-Wan tries to co-ordinate an attack with him and Anakin says "No I'll take him now!" and gets himself zapped and out of the fight. Now Obi-Wan has said he knew he couldn't take Dooku on his own, but that's exactly where Anakin has left him. You want noble and brave, bravery is Obi-Wan knowing he'll very likely die going against Dooku on his own but not backing down, "I don't think so" he says without a waiver or doubt.

Rushing headlong into things because you believe you are better than everyone else isn't the same kind of courage. Anakin lost his arm because of his own arrogance. He didn't listen to Obi-Wan, Obi-wan got injured, so by the time Anakin could re-enter the fight, he too had to fight Dooku alone and thus he lost his arm. Between Obi_Wan and Anakin together, fighting as team, they probably could have held Dooku without loss of limbs, until Yoda got there but noooo...Anakin knew better, as usual. :sarcasm: :biggrin:

[Vyndim]

I don't see how rushing to fight Dooku is counted as an evil trait or how it could be counted as a mark against Anakin. *A lot of people would have done the same, he was head strong and acted impulsively. * Is that a fault? Yes of course. *However I don't feel its enough to imply he was acting selfishly. *I also don't see how *Anakin saving Obi-Wan is arrogance. *Anakin jumped in to save his father figure, if anything I would count that as a good thing. *I can see how his impulsive and perhapes arrogant actions in the begining of the fight cost him, however I think towards the end hes not really fighting for himself, but for Obi-Wan and others.

[JocastaNu]

A lot of people would have done the same,

I don't think most people would have. Most people in such a situation would have listened to their "superior officer", so to speak.

Who said it was an evil trait? But it is a fault and a big one. It's a definite mark against him. It shows a great amount of disrespect for Obi-Wan as his master. Obi-Wan is planning a joint attack and Anakin says quite insolently "No I'm taking him now!" and well, we know what happens there. His insolense and lack of respect for Obi-Wan ends up leaving Obi-Wan to face Dooku alone, a situation he already has said he knows he can't do alone and which Anakin should have been able to realize HE(Anakin) couldn't do alone either but he's too full of himself to even realize it or admit.

The necessity in this case came from Anakin's arrogant, and disrespectful act at the beginning of the fight. He wasn't simply outmatched as Obi-Wan was when fighting Maul with Qui-Gon, Anakin actively disobeyed an order, two of them actually. The first one when Obi-Wan is formulating the attack(and notice Qui-Gon didn't have to do that with Obi-Wan because he could always trust Obi-Wan to follow his lead), the second one was directly after that when Obi-Wan says "No Anakin No!".

[Vyndim]

I don't think his action of attacking Dooku first was all that bad. He stated before hand he wanted to make Dooku pay for the jedi he killed. Well Anakin showed anger and/or hate in that instant. I'll give you that one. However, disobeying orders? To a degree. Just because someone is your superior officer, does not mean you will listen to them 100% of the time. We already saw demonstration of this many times earlier in the film. To me it seemed he acted exactly like an impulsive teenager, so what? We knew already he acted like that. Him attacking Dooku right away, most people saw something like that coming. However, Anakin attemps to make up for this by trying to save Obi-Wan's life. So his impulsivness is a strike against him, however I think him trying to save Obi-Wan is a mark for him...Just my opinion on the matter.

[JocastaNu]

No it just means he isn't "gone" yet, it means he's still a "good guy" with some very serious flaws. Anakin did disobey, twice. I don't see how this can be questioned. Obi-Wan is directing a strategy, Anakin totally blows him off, Obi-Wan says to stop, Anakin just keeps going. The "teenager" thing is a cop out--even most people in the military start out as 18 and 19 year olds and most of the time do a pretty good job following orders, especially important ones.

Anakin was arrogant and it is a disrespectful, thus selfish arrogance. This is about the traits which end up leading Anakin to the Dark Side, well, there ya have it, this is showing some of them. It's already showing his lack of respect and how he doesn't listen to Obi-Wan, always thinks he knows better than Obi-Wan, he doesn't listen to Obi-Wan trying to bring him back from the Dark Side either("Obi-Wan once thought as you do"), he thinks he knows better than him.

[Vyndim]

Ahh exactly, he questions Obi-Wan constantly. *I think the reason he asks questions and "disrespects" Obi-Wan is because he doesn't accept the simple Yes or No answer. *Anakin in his mind feels he is ready to become a jedi, but we all know he is not. *Obi-Wan constantly gives Anakin the Yes and No stradegy, its no wonder he acts rebellious towards Obi-Wan. *

I'll touch on the rebellious thing a little more. *He rebels against Obi-Wan because of his character in general. *Anakin is always conflicting inside himself between his duties and his feelings. *Most of the time he acts on his feelings, which goes against his jedi training. *Also, Obi-Wan trying to bring Anakin back? I think not. *He treats Anakin like a mindless child, which he isn't. *Simply telling him "no" does not cut it. *Now I'm not trying to place all the blame on Obi-Wan because even I can't deny that. *However, I don't think there really is all that much of a dark side to Anakin yet at all. *Is it there? Sure, but I don't think its all that people make it out to be. *He still has some qualities that make him a good person. *There was something else I wanted to add to this, but my thoughts escape me. I'll post the rest later if I remember.

[JocastaNu]

Obi-Wan constantly gives Anakin the Yes and No stradegy, its no wonder he acts rebellious towards Obi-Wan.

No he doesn't. Anakin has been a padawan for ten years now, I'm sure Obi-Wan has been over the reasons many times now. In fact the comments that pass between them like this "How many times..." "I've heard this before" and "We will not go through this exercise again" show this. Obi-Wan has obviously been over all this umpteen times with Anakin. Obi-Wan does explain himself. Anakin knows what he is supposed to do and why, he just doesn't do it because he thinks he knows better, also there may be times when Anakin has to follow Obi-Wan's lead because Obi-Wan realizes something Anakin doesn't yet, etc, due to his youth and inexperience. Besides, it's pretty obvious where Obi-Wan is coming from most of the time and I haven't even had the Jedi training to understand it, Anakin just doesn't want to take the time think any further than the way he wants to do things and what he wants.

[Vyndim]

Okay, so Anakin is given orders by Obi-Wan and disobeys them. My analysis of this is: He thinks hes better then Obi-Wan in alot of ways and whatever methods Obi-Wan used its pretty obvious they didn't work. Anakin displays that he has a strong connection with the Force. Also he feels that Obi-Wan isn't letting him lead up to his full potential. There is a preticular line that stands out to me. When Anakin confers with Palpatine, Palpatine says "...In time you will learn to trust your feelings." Well, I think that right there is a good example as to why Anakin behaves as he does. Instead of just following orders, Anakin acts upon his feelings as he feels they are the right thing to do. Again, in no way am I trying to place all the blame on Obi-Wan. Although, I can see where Anakin is coming from when he does not listen to his master.

[catwmnjedi]

Whoa, lots of debating... good thread Kafer!!! And you said yours usually die... lol!

I meant to comment earlier, but ran out of time before the weekend.

Kafer... I wanted to get back to something you said earlier... that you didn't think Obi-Wan was jealous of Anakin. I agree in AOTC we didn't see any evidence of that. But remember in TPM when Qui asks the council to train Anakin? Remember Obi-Wan's expression? It looked rather disturbed to me, perhaps even jealous. And why shouldn't he be? He worked hard trying to please Qui and was very close to him. Then he just casts him off that easily? I think we all agree that Obi-Wan attempts to be the perfect Jedi... sometimes that's even his flaw. Would it be so unbelievable for him to be jealous of this kid Qui picks up on Tatooine (another pathetic lifeform...) who gets special treatment because they THINK he's "the Chosen One"? It's kind of like that Prodigal Son parable in the Bible.

We know that Obi-Wan at least feels that he had something to do with Anakin's fall, or at least failed to stop it, because he mentions it to Luke in ESB. "I thought I could train him as well as Master Yoda... I was wrong" something like that. So something in their relationship is a contributing factor. I'm guessing in EP3 Obi-Wan becomes a General and is probably so wrapped up in his duty that he either gives up on Anakin or fails to see the trouble he's in.

Was Anakin inherently evil? Interesting question... I can't help feeling after seeing AOTC and his relationship with Palpy that MAYBE Palpy is even his mysterious unknown dad... wouldn't that be a trip! I think Anakin has a harder time controlling his emotions. Does that make him evil? By itself, no, but it makes him weaker... more susceptable to falling to temptation, as we've seen with Padme. I wouldn't call that evil, but I'd call it weak... the plague that befalls most humans, making us quite imperfect.

I'm curious why resisting temptation is so much easier for Obi-Wan. Is he just more experienced at quelling his emotions, or just inherently less emotional? He was pretty emotional against Darth Maul, and even with Dooku, both cases proving to be weaknesses as well. Maybe his weaknesses are more duty-related, whereas Anakin's are more personal due to his violating the rules of "attachment" and being so attached to his mother.

But Obi-Wan rules, no matter what you all say! :biggrin:

[JocastaNu]

Well, yes Obi-Wan does rule!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

I think I went over my ideas for Obi-Wan seeming jealousy in TPM in one of my earlier posts. If it was, it was short lived. Obi-Wan got over it, he even apologized, quite sincerely, for his behavior to Qui-Gon. That was an important scene about Obi-Wan's character, it showed he had the ability to learn from his mistakes and could humble himself. It also showed he wasn't one to go around holding grudges for little reason or even for a pretty big reason, because what Qui-Gon did was really quite insensitive to Obi-Wan.

I think it's a mistake if we believe that it was "easier" resisting temptation for Obi-Wan, or for Luke or for any one, for that matter. It was hard for all of them. They all came to the moments where they had to make choices, hard choices--it is a measure of their strength of character that they could resist it or not. Do they take the "quick and easy path" or do they dig in and take the less easy but right path, Anakin chose the path of least resistance inside himself.

[Winston_Sith]

Originally posted by WayoftheGungon@May 26 2002 - 23:01

All this talk about Anakin's "father figures" has led me to an interesting idea.

Everyone talks about Qui-Gon, and then Obi-Wan as being powerful influences on Anakin and his future training as a Jedi and all that, and I can see where they're coming from, but I think we're leaving somebody very important to the development of Anakin's present (AotC) character out of the picture: Watto.

As we all know, the Jedi Council initially declared that Anakin was "too old" to be trained as a Jedi; but if he had been born within Republic territory, he would have been snatched up by the Jedi Order, because of his high Midichlorian count, and trained as a Padawan by Master Yoda himself, as were those younglings we saw in AOTC.

But, no, Anakin was born in the Outer Rim territories, outside Republic jurisdiction, and by the time he was discovered, at the tender age of 9 (quite old enough for his core personality to have developed quite extensively, I think), he was determined to be "too old"; of course, the Council changed their mind and allowed Obi-Wan (not Yoda, right?) to take him as his Padawan learner.

So, Anakin, unlike all the other Jedi, did not get the total "Yoda experience" of being guided by the Master's wisdom (though, certain threads here seem to point to the possibility that Yoda's wisdom was maybe not as great as we may have thought it was before) from early childhood. Now, whom did he get instead in those years he could have been under Yoda’s wing? Watto.

Watto is selfish. Watto is arrogant. Watto is impulsive. Watto explodes into fits of anger when things don't go his way. Watto is only concerned with how future circumstances could effect Watto. Watto is known to bet pretty much everything he owns on silly, trivial things like those awful pod races. True, Watto is all those things, but Watto was also, probably more than anyone else, a "father figure" to Anakin during his early years as a slave, and long before the opportunity of Anakin becoming a Jedi ever presented itself. Anakin had belonged to Watto since three he was years of age, and by my impression of it, from watching TPM, wasn't treated badly,- if you don't count the explosive implant and the fact that he was a slave (!!!). In AotC, Watto even spoke as tenderly as anyone has ever heard him speak when he suspected that the Jedi standing before him was “Annie”. It was very touching, I thought.

So, it seems that Anakin, despite the influence of his new “father” (Obi-Wan), and his own best(?) efforts, seems to be acting out all the bad character traits (though certainly on a more serious, escalated level) of his first “father” (Watto).

I hope I made the point I was trying to make and that this doesn’t sound totally ridiculous.

[Ken-OB]

Howdy. An idea that I have concerning Anakin's "choices and decisions" stems from the fact that he is supposedly the Chosen One. If I may, I'd like to make comparisons to other prophecies in our world - even though I'm not saying I believe in the idea of prophecy in our world, some say it really exists. Therefore, many generations ago, some prophet claims an event that will take place in the distant future - no matter what. Let's say J.F. Kennedy's assassination was prophecied... his killer's choices and decisions would make little difference... because somehow, in some way, he would end up walking the path that would lead to him pulling the trigger. Apparently, the notion behind a fulfilled prophecy is that the person doing the act is totally oblivious to the what he's doing (when it comes to the prophetic event he is supposed to fulfill), because his actions are being controlled by FATE or the cosmic puppeteer.
Now, back to Anakin. If he is the Chosen One, the decisions of Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, or the whole Council may in fact change minor events in Annie's life, but will not deter his FATE from being fulfilled. Instead of there being a God to lead and decide FATE, it is the Force. Annie is simply oblivious to the fact that he is fulfilling a prophecy. As Qui-Gon states in TPM, when it comes to the Force, NOTHING happens by accident. NOTHING!
Perhaps, Yoda knows this and decides to do little because he knows that Annie will eventually fall (he mentions some apprehension to training him in TPM, but ten years later, he just decides to go with the flow of prophecy). We all know Yoda's respect for the Force, so perhaps Yoda lets Annie fall without trying to intervene, because he knows that the Force simply wants it this way to eventually restore balance.
Also, in reference to those who believe that Anakin's fall to the Dark Side is ironic since he is to restore balance to the Force - it was not Annie that brought such unrest to teh Galaxy... ultimately, it was Sidious. Annie (Vader) was just Palpatine's puppet (as we see at the conclusion of ROTJ, when Sidious is willing to toss Vader to the side to have Luke become the new Sith apprentice). Maybe the Force felt tha Annie's fall was necessary to eventually bring down the Emperor, since the Force knows all!
Any thoughts on this?

OK, this was my first post... sorry it's such a ramble. I simply don't know when to stop...

[Kafer]

Let me throw in a couple more cents here.

Obi in TPM. I still never saw jealousy. When Qui casts him off for Ani in the council chambers, I see hurt. Qui hurt him there. So when they have the small exchange of words on the landing platform later, I believe Obi was acting on his hurt feelings. Not so much that he was jealous of Ani but hurt because Qui, who he loved, could replace him so easily.

And Ani in TPM. I believe he manipulated everyone, including Qui to a point. He feel in love with Padme the moment he saw her. (If a 9 year old can fall in love.) He wanted to spend more time with her. So, after leaving Watto's for the day he goes and finds the little group, gets on their good side by helping them with Sebulba. He then realizes that Qui is a Jedi. So here is another thing he loves. Jedi. So, with the convenient sand storm that forces them all to his place, he gets to spend more time with Padme and gets to get on the Jedi's good side.

So, when the Jedi says he needs help, Ani of course chimes in with how he can help. And reward, "Oh, no I couldn't think of it. Just simply helping you is enough." Nope, he thinks this will further get him on the good side of this Jedi. Perhaps to the point where the Jedi will take him with him when he leaves.

And sure enough, that all happens. So, the "He gives without any thought of reward." line just doesn't fit. His reward was to fall into favor with this Jedi and get him out of the hell hole he lives in.

Next point. Ani leaving his mom. Both Qui and Shmi try to tell him how hard the choice is and to stop and think about it. But, he had his mind made up before the opportunity was even available. He was half packed before he thought he should have atleast some remorse for his mother not leaving with him.

Now, I'm sure that the time between TPM and AotC, that Ani really did throw himself into learnign the Jedi way, but only to the point where he could use his gift and master it.

Which now brings us up to AotC. I think Obi and Ani have a good friendship going on. The good natured kidding in the Tubo lift I think shows that. And Obi really does care for the boy as a person. His concern when he watches Ani walk off with Padme to the transport back to Naboo. And I think Ani really cares, in some way, about Obi. If he truly didn't care at all for the man, he probably wouldn't have tried to save him during the Dooku fight.

However, Ani does have on foot firmly planted on the path to Vader-ism by not only slaughtering the Tusken village, but by showing no remorse for it. Sure, he cried, but never said, I can't believe I did it or I am so sorry for my actions, or even to have mentioned it to Obi.

So, with Palp telling Ani to trust his feelings, well his feelings are "I will do anything for Padme" and "I believe I know better than most." his fall has already started and will take several decades and several thousand deaths before he comes out of it.

[DanielSkywalker]

Howdy, I don't believe that Mr. Lucas intends to portray Yoda or Obi-Wan as responsible for Anakin's fall. Yoda appears to be very sensitive towards Anakin's feelings, but I don't think that he can sense Anakin's hatred. i think i've already stated this somewhere before. And, obi-Wan is doing the best he possibly can with Anakin. I know of many parents who have raised their families the right way but still have a child who chooses the wrong path in life. i don't believe that Mr. Lucas views Obi-Wan as a failure at all. Obi-Wan might view himself as a failure, but wouldn't that parent whose child has gone astray do the same thing regardless of whose fault it really is? The fact is, is that Anakin is rebellious and does not know his place. Does this mean that he is a terrible person? No, it does not. It just means that when whatever horrible events take place in EPIII, it will seem more plausible that he would choose the dark path and not the light, seeing as how he has somewhat of a disrespect for Obi-Wan and the rest of the Jedi for that matter. He does care for Obi-Wan, but add his disrespect, plus the deceitful lies of Palpatine and you have Darth Vader. He has clearly started down that dark path as we have already seen in AOTC, with the death of his mother and the slaughtering of the Tuskens, but the darkest chapter of Anakin's life has yet to come. EPIII will most possibly be the darkest of all the movies.

[Vyndim]

Hmm well I don't view Anakin as being all that evil in ATOC at all, regardless.

Kafer stated he was manipulating people from the start in TPM. My conjecture to that is he was helping them, not for himself. He offered to go in the Pod Race, he did not even know Qui-Gon was going to free him. How is that being manipulative? Qui-Gon took Anakin with them, although yes, Anakin did choose to leave his mother's side, but not choosing to leave would have meant he would have remained on Tatooine with no hope for a future.

I agree, Anakin does not know his place, but he thinks he does. I saw very little actual attemps to dessuade him of that. Just a No here and a small sentence there. Daniel wrote that we are supposed to feel it was all Anakin's fault, well I remember hearing that GL stated he was going to make Anakin a sympathetic character and that when all of it was over we would almost feel sorry for him.

The main problem Anakin has is he trusts his feelings. However, I don't think its that big of a problem. It makes him more human and connects better with the people who see him. To be honest, yes I believe most of the blame belongs to Anakin, but to deny that no one else had any role in his fall would be a lie, in my humble opinion.

[MJADE042385]

I think Anakin trusting is feelings is good. It does make him a robot. Anakin trust too easily. If you read the book The Approaching Storm[/U] you see that Obi-Wan treats Anakin friendlier in someplaces than others. Anakin does need to learn his place. He just does think so. I can see where some of you blame Anakin and Obi-Wan. I just think that under the conditions of whats going on is what turned him evil. Padme has to die or something to make him turn into Vader. In ROTJ watching his son in pain shows him how wrong he has been.

[Vyndim]

Exactly, I never viewed Anakin trusting his feelings as a horrible thing. Theres another thread that implies Yoda did the same, when he rescued Obi-Wan and Anakin from the pillar that Dooku caused to fall. Even great jedi go by their feelings occassionally. Expecting Anakin to not obey his feelings is something that really isn't going to happen. I agree with MJADE042385, Anakin is a victim of circumstances, which I feel is backed up with the prophecy theory. Even in the end we know he still trusts his feelings when saves Luke, isn't that a good thing?

[DanielSkywalker]

Vyndim, I totally agree that Anakin will become a sympathetic character, and I have stated this several times already on this message board. He will not only be the hated and feared Villainwe know from the OT, but also the tragic hero who falls due to horrible circumstances. I don't feel that it is all his fault either. I just feel that the blame needs to be placed on Palpatine and Anakin and not Obi-Wan or Yoda.

[Vyndim]

Daniel, I'll accept that. *I also think Palpatine did play a pivital character in turning Anakin to the Dark Side. *By my other posts, I wasn't trying to imply that most of the blame belongs to the jedi, but I think there is still a little to be put there. *Anakin is still responsible for his own actions more or less. (Did I just say that?) Although I don't believe for one moment that it was completely his fault he fell to the Dark Side. Nor do I totally blame him, given all the obstacles and problems thrown at him.

[JocastaNu]

He offered to go in the Pod Race, he did not even know Qui-Gon was going to free him.

No BUT his reward was pod-racing. That was his reward. "Ani, I die everytime you race" "But mom, I love it...". That was his reward, he saw not only a way to podrace, but a way to use his very own, built by his own hands, podracer to do it. He's being manipulative, little kid manipulative, it hardly makes him evil. But it already shows him being willing to twist events to get them to go his own way. He uses Shmi's own words against her to get her to let him help "But mom, you always say one of the problems with the universe is that people don't help each other". And of course, there was flying on Naboo. "Qui-Gon told me to stay in this cockpit and that's what I'm doing"--we all know perfectly well that wasn't what Qui-Gon was talking about.

In order to get what he wants, Anakin was then and is now willing to do things like that. "Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is allowed so you could say we are encouraged to love"--only problem is Anakin's definition of "unconditional" is different from what they mean because his is directed towards individuals, like Padme, he believes he loves her unconditionally, whereas what they mean is a way to strive to be towards everyone.

I do agree with Kafer, I don't really think Obi-Wan was jealous, but I'm willing to concede it just for the sake of argument because even IF he was, he got over it, it was short lasting and almost entirely composed of his hurt over his treatment by Qui-Gon. When he apologized quite genuinely to Qui-Gon it was over.

[Vyndim]

I'm sorry, but little kid manipulative? I still don't buy that. He was acting selflessly. Just because he said he loved pod racing by no means implies he was manipulating people to get what he wanted. You point out the quote about people not helping each other? Isn't that what Anakin does? He helps Qui-Gon out, not only during the pod race but several other occasions as well. And when he was in the cockpit, didn't he mention something about auto-pilot being activated?

Alright, he does bend the truth when he confers his love to Padme. But we find out its not neccesarily love Anakin feels for Padme, more like obsession. Ya, I will admit Anakin does twist words around, and maybe he wasn't 100% jedi material, but we've seen pleanty of other faults in jedi similar to Anakin's. If they thought he was so rebelious, disrespectful, etc, why was he still being trained? If they saw all this and didn't do anything, I'd say thats pretty ignorant or blind.

[JocastaNu]

Well what were they supposed to do, say sorry, you are too reckless and out of control so now that we've partially trained you and introduced you to ways to use your Force ability consciously, we'll let you go. Now that would have been stupid. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

They are still training him, they are still trying to work the problems out. They aren't going to just abandon him, so they are going to keep trying to figure out a way to help him reach that goal. Just because they don't always make the right decision doesn't mean they weren't trying. They all, Obi-Wan, the Council seem to be trying, even if they don't entirely see eye to eye about it.


And about the autopilot, it was activated but then they turned it off, so to start out with he couldn't control it. Besides he does say that "Qui-Gon told me to stay here and that's what I'm going to do" to whatever R2 beeped at him, this shows R2 obviously had some other solution in mind.

Anakin was not as selfless as he was made out to be in TPM. He was a nice kid but he was a normal kid and normal kids are not perfect little selfless things, they are perfectly capable of being manipulative and that is what Anakin does. It doesn't make him bad, but it also shows traits which are part of the reason he has such a hard time being a Jedi and living that kind of selfless, rewardless lifestyle.

[Justin]

Hey Vyndim, you said you didn't think Anakin was evil at all in AOTC. Well massacring an entire village, including the women and children, is evil even if some of them tortured his mother.

[Vyndim]

JocastaNu, I can see where you would think that Anakin was being manipulative in TPM. *Although, I just don't see eye to eye with that. *In my opinion, I don't think he was being manipulative. *Some people actually do things without expecting a reward, why wasn't Anakin one of those?

I also agree, Obi-Wan did try his best with Anakin, although I don't think it was enough. *However, I don't think there was any way that Obi-Wan alone could have prevented Anakin's fall by himself. *Although, I still fail to see how the council did anything at all. *They were all ignorant and they even admitted it. *Yoda sensed something wrong with Anakin after slaughtering the Tuskens, but did he say or do anything at all? Nope, nothing, he just stood idly by. *I think the council deserves whatever was coming to them, they couldn't even see into their own fellow jedi. *I find that disturbing when they are supposed to keep peace between the entire galaxy. *So to sum that up, I don't feel too much *blame(if any) belongs to Obi-Wan alone. Theres really no evidence showing he could have done anything either way. However, I think the council had an abundance of chances to do something and didn't, big fault on their part.

Justin, you mention the slaughtering of tuskins raiders. Anakin was acting out of remorse and anger. *His mother was tortured and killed by them. *Thats a pretty big blow to someone finding out your mother was tortured by savages and died because of. *Personally, I agree with the Anakin's choice of words "Their like animals." Well, they arn't exactly animals, but their pretty savage. *They go around the desert killing, maiming, and torturing the other residents of Tatooine. *The children he killed would have grown up just to be like their parents and would have done the same, and the women would have just helped the camp thrive. *Why is ridding a place of monstrosities like that an evil thing? *You know, its kind of like: Kill them all and let the Force sort them out. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

[JocastaNu]

Justin is absolutely right, there is NO excuse for killing that whole village including the children. There has to be something seriously wrong inside a person's mind already to go as far as slaughtering children and they are obviously children, just because they are covered from head to toe doesn't change anything. He slaughters them with a very personal and intimate weapon, a lightsaber, that means he stabs and hacks them up to kill them, children. Who were standing there playing with their "dogs" when Anakin came out at them. If that isn't evil, it's certainly well on it's way to evil.

Gee, Vader helps the Emperor hunt down and destroy the remaining Jedi, did Obi-Wan and Yoda kill Luke and Leia? Certainly by these standards they'd be justified.

[Vyndim]

Hmmm... Well I just can't feel sorry for the slaughter of creatures like Tuskens. But, yes I can understand why someone would think its evil. *Although I still disagree. *And well, Vader does help the Emporer track down and hunt the jedi, but I was refering to the Pre-Vader Anakin.

[Winston_Sith]

Originally posted by Vyndim@May 29 2002 - 17:21
They go around the desert killing, maiming, and torturing the other residents of Tatooine.
And besides that, they took potshots at a bunch of defenseless podracers during one particular Boonta eve race, ten years ago...

Serves 'em right, I say.

Ten years too late, but they had it coming.

[MJADE042385]

I still don't think Anakin had a right to kill the women and children too. They were just there. I don't think they did anything wrong. As Anakin said the men were the warriors. Anakin in the TPM is being manipulative. Who can resist a cute little nine year old.

[Vyndim]

Originally posted by MJADE042385@May 30 2002 - 11:12
I still don't think Anakin had a right to kill the women and children too. *They were just there. *I don't think they did anything wrong. *As Anakin said the men were the warriors. *Anakin in the TPM is being manipulative. *Who can resist a cute little nine year old.
I don't recall Anakin making any reference to their social order. And what is the difference between their children and adults, they all grow up to be the same. To me, it doesn't sound like he was just slaughtering them, it was as though he was avenging his mother's death.(although a little to the extreme)

I also still fail to see how where this little kid manipulation comes into play... And I know I can resist "cute little" nine year olds. :p

[Tovor]

I do not have a definitive opinion on whether or not the children of the Tuskens deserved to die also, but it is true that the entire Tusken community and culture has always been known to raid homes and villages and hunt and kill any and all non-Tuskens. *However, here are a few points to ponder:
What is relevant is that Lucas chose to show us that there were indeed woman and children there. If he had wanted us to accept the slaughter without regard to morals and decency, he would have shown none other than snarling, drooling, growling Tusken male warriors. *The inclusion of women and children in the village, rather than showing it as a male-only war camp occupied only by murderous warriors, was intended to show how immoral and anti-Jedi-like Anakin's actions had been.

In TPM novel by Terry Brooks is a section written, I believe, by Brooks alone rather than as part of GL's story. *As since it is the screenplay novel I think we can consider it cannon, especially since it had to meet with Lucas' approval before final printing. Here is my point: Before Qui-Gon and the Queen reached Tatooine, little Ani and 3PO had been sent by Watto to retrieve goods from Jawa dealers beyond city limits. *On the way back, well into nighttime, they came across an injured Tusken Raider who was barely mobile and in terrible pain. *Ani insisted on trying to help the Tusken and make him comfortable, and protect him from carnivorous night creatures. The Tusken was wary of the human boy but could do nothing to hurt Ani or escape. *Ani had 3PO tell the Tusken that he would not hurt him, and wanted only to help him through the night. The Tusken refused to speak to Ani, so deep was his mistrust and dislike for humans, but Ani saw him through the night until finally he fell asleep. *When he awake at dawn the Tusken's companions had arrived and were helping the wounded warrior up. *A couple of them then went toward Ani with weapons drawn, so as to kill the human boy as Tuskens were known to do, when the wounded Tusken whose life had been saved and protected called them back and would not let them hurt Ani. *After the Tuskens were gone, I think Ani told 3PO (or else it was during the night when he wanted to help the warrior) that they were not animals after all, or something like that.
If we can take the screenplay novel as absolute canon, then take what you just read, follow it by Anakin's massacre of the Tuskens in AOTC and his comment that he hated them and slaughtered them like animals, and decide from there how you feel now about his wrath on the Tuskens.

[Vyndim]

Well, that does support my theory about Anakin being selfless. *And I suppose it puts some light on the Tuskens, making them seem not quite so savage. *However, I still have no definant disagreements to Anakin slaughtering the camp, adults or otherwise. Just opinion.

[Darth Threat]

JokastaNu, you have made great points in this thread, I agree with you wholeheartedly (and thanks for all the other posts here as well, they are all great). style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

As for the council ignoring Anakins Problems - in the canon novelization the council recognizes Anakins point, that he is ready for the trials. They feel he knows enough about the force, but that his altruistic,giving attitude - perhaps the most important thing for a Jedi - is lacking. So Windu sends him off with Padmè knowing that he feels for her and thus testing his dedication to the Jedi order and his vow of commitment. We know Anakin fails this test. I`m not sure it`s the real Jedi Knight trial every Padawan has to pass, but it`s still an important test. And it shows that the council knows of Anakins deep seated problems: his arrogance (confirmed by Obi-Wan, Anakin and Windu), his egocentricity (marrying Padmè against the code of the order). Anakin is a guy who has passion and would go through hell for those he loves (Shmi, Padmè, Luke) but he does only care for people somehow related to him, so he remains an egoist (a sympathetic one, I agree).
*
His arrogance, egoistic streak and power hunger is in his personality, it leads to his doom, and it`s not to blame on Obi or the Jedi.

As to the Tuskens deserving to be murdered. Well, intersting view, but I think it`s a dangerous idea. Sorry.

[Vyndim]

Originally posted by Darth Threat@June 02 2002 - 08:46
As for the council ignoring Anakins Problems - in the canon novelization the council recognizes Anakins point, that he is ready for the trials. They feel he knows enough about the force, but that his altruistic,giving attitude - perhaps the most important thing for a Jedi - is lacking. So Windu sends him off with Padmè knowing that he feels for her and thus testing his dedication to the Jedi order and his vow of commitment. We know Anakin fails this test. I`m not sure it`s the real Jedi Knight trial every Padawan has to pass, but it`s still an important test. And it shows that the council knows of Anakins deep seated problems: his arrogance (confirmed by Obi-Wan, Anakin and Windu), his egocentricity (marrying Padmè against the code of the order). Anakin is a guy who has passion and would go through hell for those he loves (Shmi, Padmè, Luke) but he does only care for people somehow related to him, so he remains an egoist (a sympathetic one, I agree).
So, what your saying is the council "tests" Anakin without him knowing? And you feel he failed his tests, understandable I can see why. Yes, both the council and Obi-Wan are aware of his attitude, but I still fail to see affirmative action taken. As for him marrying Padme? How can he fail that part if the council does not even know about it. Remember, he was married in secret, in no way is the council remotely aware of his marriage to her. And yes, Anakin does only show compassion to those hes close with. It shows he cares for Shmi, Padme, and Luke. However, you left out Obi-Wan. He does care for Obi-Wan. He even says Obi-Wan is like his father. Although hes not neccesarily caring to others around him, I don't see any evidence pointing that he treats them badly, so how is him only showing compassion to those around him valid?

I still don't feel that Anakin's fall was strictly his own fault. Its very apperent his good qualities were there, but they were twisted and distorted...And yes, I enjoy JocastaNu's replies aswell. :p

[Count Dooku]

Obi-Wan was jealous, but I think he got over that very quickly. He apologized to his Master. In Episode II, Anakin disobeys Obi-Wan's guidance. So it tells you that Anakin is turning into a selfish person. I totally disagree to who ever said that in TPM Anakin wasnt selfish. He was not filled with anger, hate, or selfishness, Yoda thought he did in the TPM his thoughts dwelled on his mother. In AOTC he showed alot, he totally disobeyed his Master, he basically drove Obi-Wan nuts. He broke the rule's he was not to be married.

I think why Anakin turned to the dark side is because he couldnt control his emotions. When he fought he seemed to fight Dooku with anger, and rage. He slaughtered the Tusken raiders. I think Obi and Ani really didnt have a strong relationship after Ani reunited with Padme. That hurt there relationship bad. Obi-Wan was very wise, and experienced but it was to late for Ani.

[Count Dooku]

Vyndim, "Hard to see the Dark Side is" (Yoda).

[JocastaNu]

Thanks, Darth Threat. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif I agree with what you've just said as well.

Vyndim, just because he doesn't know about it, doesn't mean it isn't a test. In fact that's part of what makes it a test, he can't just "pass" it because he knows about it. And if he gave it a little thought, he WOULD know it was a test. It's his first mission alone, if he doesn't realize it's a test and what it's testing, then he's not very bright. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

Also, you're acting like they can somehow make him act differently. All they can do is try to explain it to him as they do, it's up to him to decide how to act with the information they've given him. They aren't the Sith, they aren't going to beat him or shock him or anything like that. They are expecting him to act responsibly and take responsibility for his own actions. If he doesn't do that, they can't force him to change his mind.

How can he fail that part if the council does not even know about it.

Even if they don't know about it, it doesn't mean he didn't fail. He's doing something he shouldn't be doing and hiding it(apparently). Even if no one but yourself knows about something, it is still a failure.

[Vyndim]

And if he gave it a little thought, he WOULD know it was a test. *It's his first mission alone, if he doesn't realize it's a test and what it's testing, then he's not very bright.

Also, you're acting like they can somehow make him act differently. *All they can do is try to explain it to him as they do, *it's up to him to decide how to act with the information they've given him. *They aren't the Sith, they aren't going to beat him or shock him or anything like that. *They are expecting him to act responsibly and take responsibility for his own actions. *If he doesn't do that, they can't force him to change his mind. *


Well they might not be able to change how he acts directly, but they most certainly can have an effect. *From the way I intrepret the jedi's teachings, it seems to me like they were just asking for someone like Anakin to come along. *Sure they had rules ,but it was more like a code. *It was just expected that you follow them. *Well what about exceptions? *I think Anakin proved right off the bat he was an exception and they should have taken some extra measures, any measure really to keep him in line. *The only thing noticable was a quick no here and there. *Personally, that doesn't sound like the best way to train a student.

Even if they don't know about it, it doesn't mean he didn't fail. *He's doing something he shouldn't be doing and hiding it(apparently). *Even if no one but yourself knows about something, it is still a failure
Well, Anakin's marriage to Padme did go against what the jedi believed in, however, due to some lack of basis theres a jedi council member with five wives, explain that. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif Anyway, if Anakin didn't view it as a failure but an accomplishment and the council was clueless I don't think it would be a failure. *From his point of view he was doing the right thing. *So until we see the negative effects his relationship with Padme on himself clearly, I don't see how theres any real basis to call that a failure. *Perhapes its the lack of those qualities that the jedi were brought to extinction in the first place?

[JocastaNu]

Vyndim, THAT is EU. It's made clear in all the books Lucas has been involved with(the two film novelizations and The Approaching Storm) that Jedi do not marry and do not have children. In fact in TAS, Luminara comes right out and says "Jedi don't have children". It's also pretty clear in the film "You have made a commitment to the Jedi Order, a commitment not easily broken", the trailer is called Forbidden Love, etc. Jedi don't get married. It's never been any of the films that Ki Adi Mundi is married, so by CANON he is not married.

Anakin makes his own choices. Anakin falls to the Dark Side by his own choices. The Jedi and Obi-Wan gave him the knowledge he needed to make the right decisions. He's the one who chose not to take it to heart and not to use it when he needed to.

[Vyndim]

I was just jesting about Ki Adi Mundi, I understood it was EU garabage. :D

Anyway, Anakin does his make his own choices. However, with what I've seen the choices haven't been horribly destructive. Okay well maybe they have but not enough so that it would make him become the Sith that he does. Yoda trusts his feelings during the fight with Dooku when he saves Obi-Wan and Anakin, was that all that horrible? You can see several instances where they jedi go against their teachings, even well trained ones. They mention it being a flaw, well they obiviously didn't correct that flaw even with all their education and training. Perhapes thats why they were wiped out anyway, they failed to see what was really happening to themselves and those around them.

[Tovor]

Kafer wrote, a long time ago:
I expect a few posts and this thread to die in a couple of days.
No! This thread shall live! Rise, thread, rise!

[Javen]

I think that the expectations are really high on this duel, so hopefully it will lead up to it with much intensity.