The Most Powerful Sith ever to live...

[Darth Massacrus]

This is a thread where we discuss the powers of all the Sith, in any of thier various incarnations, and try to figure out the most powerful ones. EU material welcome...

[nefertiti]

Hmmm...research time... I'll get back to this one!



(...was that wikee...or wepiki...or woocie..or....damn!)

[Darth Massacrus]

good luck youre gonna need it!- H. Solo:lol:

[Slash Kiron]

I would either have to say Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, or Darth Vader. Vader has the most raw power, but sidious had the most knowledge. Bane was really powerful too.

[Darth Massacrus]

SK: welcome to the Senate! You like the EU?

[nefertiti]

Do you think starting as a Jedi then going to Sith (or visa versa) would make the individual more powerful or less? e.i.: Revan

[MandalorianJF]

Well...if Vader would not get damaged on Mustafar then he would be the most powerful, but sins he got damaged I don't know.

[nefertiti]

I can in theory agree…if Vader had not been damaged then he would have been THE most powerful…across all timeframes. Because he was the being of both prophecies. But if Anakin hadn’t been damaged…then would we have had Vader “in the suit?” Anakin without the suit would have meant: he killed Obi-1, that he would have had control of the twins (remember Padmé is on the ship), that he could have possibly over-thrown the Emperor (as he states) and there would have been no story to tell.

[Balnazzar]

Massacrus said; EU stuff wanted,..so...
1. Marka Ragnos
2.Darth Plagueis
3.Adas
4.Darth Sidius
5.Exar Kun
Vader possibly...number 6.

[matthius]

Massacrus said; EU stuff wanted,..so...
1. Marka Ragnos
2.Darth Plagueis
3.Adas
4.Darth Sidius
5.Exar Kun
Vader possibly...number 6.
Adas I would cut out, not saying he's not powerful but little is known about his overall character. Marka Ragnos was also kick butt, but he seemed not as smart as Darth Bane, although he probably had a wider array of powers, Bane was pretty much just as strong with the force. And everybody always talk about how smart Sidious was, I think he was possibly one of the more stupider sith, like a kid with a super sweet rocket launcher (the force). Here's a quick list of my choices: 1- Darth Plagueis
2- Darth Bane
3- Darth Revan
4- Darth Andeddu(big maybe)
5- Darth Nihilus(lots of power, but he's kind of stupid)
I can be easily persauded otherwise if one of the sith on or off my list should be on or off the list.

[nefertiti]

good luck youre gonna need it!- H. Solo:lol:

Holy Crap! You ain't kidding....

[Balnazzar]

although he probably had a wider array of powers



Isn't this enough to say that he was more powerful than Bane. I think-definitely yes.And Sidius WAS a powerful Sith for he learnt everything from Plagueis, which you post up as number 1.

[Darth Massacrus]

Good arguments Senators! heres a list of all Dark Lords of the Sith that are known, and in chronological Order: Dathka Graush, Ajunta Pall, Darth Andeddu, Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, Darth Malak, Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus, Darth Ruin, Darth Rivan, The Dark Underlord, Belia Darzu, Lord Kaan, Darth Bane, Darth Zannah, Darth Cognus, Darth Vectivus, Darth Plagueis, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, Lady Lumiya, Darth Krayt. For more, on the Dark Lords, go to my Dark Lords of the Sith thread.

[JMAS]

I think Jacen Solo, once he is full Sith, will be greater than all of them.

[Darth Massacrus]

perhaps, perhaps not. But is it the Force that governs Jacen, or is it the other way around?

[Cydon]

*snicker* Just go to SS, hes got midi-chlorian counts. lol

[nefertiti]

I'm only half way through your list, but this guy appeals to me!

Dathka Graush

He says "Help me! I need Love!!!" hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahha

[Darth Massacrus]

did you read the Wizards of the Coast online story about "Planet Hoppers: Korriban: Planet of Lost Souls"? It involves Dathka Graush...

[nefertiti]

Nope...will google and go have a look-see! Thanks.... he really was quite gruesome, but...isn't it always the "bad-boys!"


EDIT: found it! Thanks, again!

[Darth Massacrus]

Personnally, I think that the most powerful Sith in history is Darth Traya...

[matthius]

Darth Bane for me!:sidxmas:

[Darth Massacrus]

Darth Traya, Dark Lady of the Sith, for me!

[melissa_ladyvader]

ANAKIN SKYWALKER "DARTH VADER"

PLAIN AND SIMPLE

[Darth Octavious]

Please explain.

[Darth Massacrus]

which one of us?

[Balnazzar]

I thought Darth Traya was really something between the jedi and Sith, so in my opinion; Ragnos or Plagueis.

[Darth Octavious]

See that why trying to figure out why Traya is more powerful than Sidious, Plaguies, Ragnos, Skywalker. And I coming up empty.

[huttslime]

Traya is too old for me...

Bane is the kind of guy who gets entitled as the most powerul sith.

[Mark Skywalker]

DARTH VADER in Episode III [Before the iconic suit] .

[Darth Massacrus]

of the Sith Lords of the Ancient Sith Empire, Marka Ragnos would be the strongest and most powerful of the known ones. As for the Dark Lords between the old Empire and the one of Revan, both Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun would tie out. of the Lords of Revans Empire, which includes the Sith Triumvirate of the Shadow War, Darth Traya narrowly beats out the Dark Lorded Revan. As for Sith Lords from the new Sith Wars, so little is known that I would vote on Darth Bane. For the Order of the Sith Lords that Bane founded, two candidates emerge: Darth Sidious, and Darth Vader before his Mustafar transformation. As for later Sith Lords, either Lumiya or Darth Krayt could claim the title, Jacen Solo not yet being a Sith Lord. Out of all of these, Lumiya and Krayt are still alive, so they cannot yet be fully measured, Vader lost most of his power, so that he became weaker than Sidious, who in turn failed to foresee betrayals at both Byss and Endor and paid the ultimate price for his lack of vision. While extraordinarily powerful, Nadd and Kun's knowledge was likely also known by Traya and Ragnos, so they are crossed off the list. This leaves us with Ragnos and Traya, and because Traya knew techniques and powers that Ragnos did not, and because she likely knew most if not all of Ragnos' abilities, Traya ranks as the most powerful Sith. Narrowly, though...

[Balnazzar]

What about Plagueis and his power; to prevent others from dying? I don't think Traya had that power.

[Darth Massacrus]

you're really believing Sidious when he SAID that Plagueis could prevent others from dying? BTW: if he taught Sidious everything he knew, wouldnt that by extension include the save others from death stuff?

[Balnazzar]

Well, despite what Sidius said to Anakin, he was trying to attain him. But Darth Plagueis was one of the wisest and most powerful sith who ever lived. So I believe even Sidius as his apprentice, not only that he didn't learn everything from his master, but I also think he didn't know what true power his master possessed.

[Darth Massacrus]

where did you get that from?

[Jedi Master Harrison]

you're really believing Sidious when he SAID that Plagueis could prevent others from dying? BTW: if he taught Sidious everything he knew, wouldnt that by extension include the save others from death stuff?

I've only seen the movies and you seem to be far more knowledgable than me, but, having read other threads, I thought was Sidious kind of able to stop himself from dying, by using other bodies to maintain the life of his spirit?

Ever since reading this it appears to me that maybe this is what Sidious meant about Plagueis in that opera scene. Maybe Sidious had already used other bodies to maintain his spirit, or maybe he needed Anakin's power to help discover how to do this? Just my ideas......

[Darth Massacrus]

Actually, Sidious knew that the Dark Side corruption would eventually take it's toll on his body, and it would fail him. Therefore, he searched for ways to preserve both his spirit and body. Knowledge gained from cloning experts, the spirits of Korriban and other Sith, and from captured Jedi Masters like Ashka Boda and thier holocrons revealed that if he could learn to transfer his Dark Side spirit into another body, it would be possible to live almost an eternity. Which is exactly what he did. While he could have simply preserved his spirit as numerous Ancient Sith did, he needed to preserve control of his body or bodies as well in order to effectively rule the Empire.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ Thanks for the info Darth Massacrus. I am hoping to receive some EU books for Christmas so I can delve more deeply into the whole SW experience!

[Darth Massacrus]

try to get some of the Tales of the Jedi or the Dark Empire comics...

[Marko Ragnos]

Marka Ragnos, ofcourse.

[Darth Massacrus]

of the Lords of the Ancient Sith Empire, yes, Marka Ragnos, or possibly Adas...

[Darth Octavious]

Are we talking about the Most Powerful Sith ever to live, number 1 of all time? Wielding a saber, the use of the force and all that good stuff.

[matthius]

Well, despite what Sidius said to Anakin, he was trying to attain him. But Darth Plagueis was one of the wisest and most powerful sith who ever lived. So I believe even Sidius as his apprentice, not only that he didn't learn everything from his master, but I also think he didn't know what true power his master possessed.
I'll agree with you about Plaqueis being wise(i.e. his title: Plagueis the Wise), and sidious did tell anakin about how powerful Plagueis' was. We'll just have to wait till the new Darth Plagueis novel comes out to know more about him:sidxmas: .

[Balnazzar]

Again, it is hard to say who is the most powerful or the wisest of them all.
We know that; Ragnos, Bane, Adas, Plagueis, Traya, Nihillus,...are very, very powerful, but who is the best among them,...? There are too many categories in which we could compare all sith Lords. I think only years of studying this dark masters would be enough to define the best Sith and of course the true power each of them possesed.

[huttslime]

The most obvious answer to this question is: Darth Revan!

This is because he came up with a way for the sith to survive. The there can only be one, one to have power etc. and all that stuff.

He was a wise man. Darth Mass Crusade mentioned earlier that Traya is better than him, but she didn't come up with that 2 sith thing did she? (I am not through with playing TSL...)

[Balnazzar]

Look, maybe he did come up with those things, but if you put him in a chamber to fight with Darth Traya, she would have him in 7 minutes.
You must consider all existing powers a sith can possess, not just ability to invent or to come up with something.

[Darth Massacrus]

depends. if that 'chamber' is the Trayus Core, I certainly would agree.

[Jedi Master 2k5]

I would also have to agree^^

[Jedi Master 2k5]

Also in my opinion Exar kun was a very powerful sith so he shouldn't be ignored.

[Darth Massacrus]

actually, Nihilus would not be powerful, if you were to ask me. He was not in control of his hunger, rather, he was a slave to it. Kreia revelead it to be one of the greaest teachings of the Sith, but it mastered HIM, rather than Nihilus mastering IT.

[Cassus Fett]

Whats your definition of powerful? there is so many ways you can take it.

[Darth Massacrus]

I would say that having power over something (its over something because the Sith view is that the Force serves, not leads) is measured by the extent you have mastered it. In the case of Darth Traya, she did what no other Force user ever did: she mastered the Force to the point where she was able to find a way to destroy it. And she came ever so close...

[Cassus Fett]

So you could say they are all the most powerfulest Sith to live, in all different areas.

[Cydon]

Exar! Exar! Kun! Kun! Kun!

[Darth Massacrus]

certain aspects were mastered more fully than others by certain Sith, to be sure, (Naga Sadow was certainly more adept at manipulation and Sith magics and Alchemy and poisons than at military tactics or one-on-one combat; Tulak Hord was the greatest Sith lightsaber duelist of all, but certainly not as adept at Force powers; Darth Traya was a master duelist and teacher with incredible understanding of the Force, but was no leader; the list goes on and on) but when one gains the ability to eradicate something for all time, there really isnt any more potent measure or indicator of power or mastery.

[Starwarsjoshsmith]

I say Nihilus was one of the most powerful, He was able to tear his flagship and Entire fleet from Malachor IV, and all he had to do was speak to Anihilate all life on Katarr.

[Darth Massacrus]

Welcome to the Senate^!

As for Lord Nihilus, he was not powerful, as he had almost no control over his Hunger, which was what enabled him to consume all that he did. He was more a wound in the Force that, if not plugged, would eventually destroy all, including himself.

[Jedi Master Elad Kenobi]

Good arguments Senators! heres a list of all Dark Lords of the Sith that are known, and in chronological Order: Dathka Graush, Ajunta Pall, Darth Andeddu, Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, Darth Malak, Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus, Darth Ruin, Darth Rivan, The Dark Underlord, Belia Darzu, Lord Kaan, Darth Bane, Darth Zannah, Darth Cognus, Darth Vectivus, Darth Plagueis, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, Lady Lumiya, Darth Krayt. For more, on the Dark Lords, go to my Dark Lords of the Sith thread.
Lord Kaan in my view is not rrreeeaaalllyyy a Sith lord. He did not stick to the dark side teachings and was all for a "Fellowship" unlike the others. The whole brotherhood of darkness was a spinoff and Bane fixed that.
Like the Nightsisters of Dathomir but worse.

[Jedi Master Elad Kenobi]

I belive to have the best sith ever....you need to mix Darth Traya, for her masterful force powers, Naga Sadow for his ..... discreet knowledge, and Darth vader before Mustafar, for his raw potentiol. And what happened to Malak?!?!? Why is he not here??? Why have we overlooked him?
My list is:
5- Revan Reason:Badass!
4- SideousReason: Manipulation powers.
3-Bane Reason: Lightsaber skills/force powers
3-Vader Reason:Lightsaber skills/ Force powers (Marginally better than Bane.)
1-Darth Traya Reason: She did what no other Force user could do, mastered the foce to a extent where she could Destroy it.

[Darth Zan Maka]

I think the answer is hidden - Most Powerful is he who found the way to the point of perfect Force understanding (golden balance with shadow of Sith madness) where it undoubtfully would allow him to use all it's capabilities and potential. But that means complete domination of poisoned spirit above the physical matter, different state of being, like dark interdimensional creature. Too powerful for any reality to actually exist. Maximum size of conflict possible. Vector is paradox between Death and Existence.
Darth Nihilus was very close. Nobody ever was closer. He almost became the "LivingVacuum". For me he is on the top.

[Darth Zan Maka]

Welcome to the Senate^!

As for Lord Nihilus, he was not powerful, as he had almost no control over his Hunger, which was what enabled him to consume all that he did. He was more a wound in the Force that, if not plugged, would eventually destroy all, including himself.

Power able to eventually Destroy All which feeds itself by destruction is the ultimate and final level of power in terms of this thread.( Power to Create All is not discussed) Without proper control it still remains the power. This power is boiling inside one man who uses it at will. He is almost perfect Prophet of Destruction in development. This man is a Dark Sith Lord. He is The Most Powerful Sith ever to live.

[Darth Massacrus]

^ the thing is though, is that he was enslaved by his hunger, and had no real control over it. Lady Traya, the one who taught him those powers on Malachor, said as much, and Visas Marr spoke of pretty much the same thing. For one to be powerful, they have to have control over what makes them 'powerful', rather than be a slave to it.

[Darth Zan Maka]

^ Destructive Abilities of Darth Nihilus is a tool in his hands and hunger is the motivation behind all his activities. He was in full control of a ways of destruction and these powers were always ready to crush everything in his way. But hunger was his state of mind... like a drug it became his fatal obsession, his nature. He lost control over hir way. But still it did not affect his skills which were like Acid - very deadly and extremely dangerous at all time. And his hunger was causing him to use these powers again and again... It was his way to exist. His case is unique amongst specials. So ... He is still on top of my list.

[Starwarsjoshsmith]

I agree

[Darth Massacrus]

you're entitled to your opinion just as I am mine, but I still say soley based on all the EU info on Lord Nihilus, that while powerful, could not control the very thing that gave him his power, and was what ultimately doomed him: his Hunger.

[Starwarsjoshsmith]

True, i still remember when Visas Marr took off his mask.
Jedi Exile: What did you see when you looked at him?
Visas marr: Just a man, nothing more.

[Darth Massacrus]

^exactly. And right after that, the hunger that had consumed so much consumed his body and armor as a finishing touch.

[Darth Zan Maka]

True, i still remember when Visas Marr took off his mask.
Jedi Exile: What did you see when you looked at him?
Visas marr: Just a man, nothing more.

Be careful... Visas, being able to see the world solely through the Force, says when she looks upon him that she sees a thousand graveyard planets and an eternity of hate and hunger . It is interesting to add to your note, however, that depending on what path the player character chooses, when Visas looks upon the Sith Lord, she says she sees "Just a man, nothing more." That is not very nice of her but she sure had her reasons to hide the truth. Just tried to leave a wrong picture of her enemy in history. It's O'K history is written by the winners. But anyway what happened afterwards corrects her A LOT: After his death, his body dissolved in an aura of dark side energies and what happened to Nihilus after his body dissolved is unknown. Whether he is truly gone shall remain a mystery. He may return, you know... Such a character... so be careful. Truth is hidden.

[Darth Zan Maka]

By the way...
-Dark Energies dissolved his body and armor(?) Sounds stange... why armor? The more i think about it the more tricky this "dissolve" thing seems.
- Complete elimination of such a powerful soul would've cause a disturbance in the Force, isn't it? There was none. So what happened to Nihilus really?

But let's return to the thread's theme... "Lord Nihilus, that while powerful, could not control the very thing that gave him his power, his Hunger..." so Senator, The Hunger is the source of unimaginable power of Dark Lord Nihilus's, yes, and 'til mysterious "dissolvement" moment hunger never weakened him ( exept that excusable mistake with lucky Jedi Exile ), more like opposite - he would be weakened without his hunger. look, his hunger was like inspiration for an artist - uncontrolable source of creative power, it was like the constant wind for the windmill. Indeed.

Hole in the Force is a cancer for a Force not for Nihilus, who was able to contol and direct the power given to him. That power cause him no harm.
Darth Nihilus and his Hunger were like perfect simbiosis and there was always a good menu, so in the end he was simply poisoned in wrong time and in wrong place. In any other circumstances there was no chance for any opponent to defeat him.

So in the end the picture is: Nihilus is The Most Powerful Sith. And Hungry.

[Starwarsjoshsmith]

It is said that he preserved himself using a Holocron.

[Cassus Fett]

a holocron is merely a journal not a peservation device.

[Starwarsjoshsmith]

I know, i just miss read-

"Lord Nihilus, you escaped death by containing your consciousness within your armor. How?!"
―Darth Krayt

At some point before the Battle of Telos IV, Darth Nihilus made a holocron that eventually fell into the hands of Darth Krayt millennia later. In 137 ABY, Krayt accessed this holocron (along with those of Darth Andeddu and Darth Bane) on Korriban, seeking Nihilus's advice on how to stop the Yuuzhan Vong creatures from consuming his body. The only response he got from Nihilus was a statement in the Sith Lord's peculiar language, which his comrades didn't bother to translate.

[Cassus Fett]

^ See Darth Nihilus is a pointless waste of time even other Sith Lords couldnt be bothered to translate him.

[Darth Massacrus]

good point.

[Darth Zan Maka]

Well, as the matter of fact they were not going to help him at all. Quite opposite, they were happy to make him suffer instead. " Nihilus merely gave a small statement in his peculiar dialect " - probably he insulted him or advised him to burn in hell or smthg. But even if that was some kind of useful advise they weren't going to translate it to someone they obviously considered unworthy. In the end they laughed at him.
So it was not about Nihilus's poor authority that his words were not translated to Krayt. Not the best way to doubt his exellence in power above all Sith

[Jedi Master 2k5]

True^^^^^

[Darth Zan Maka]

Well, actually I was thinking of one more thing to say here...

Darth Nihilus freed himself from all known life restrictions, posessed and used powers beyond imagination of any other Force-Sensitive ever, he was "more presence than flash" superbeing, Lord of Hunger, whose motivation is simiosis between his existense and constant destruction (only the sworn enemy could call it "slavery"),
... wait!
Perfect strength....................check
Perfect power.......................check
Perfect destiny.....................check ( Destruction of ALL life and Force in the Universe, is there any greater destiny,.. well if only Creation of Life, ghmm)
He would destroy all Sith (no doubt right after all Jedi) but by being the Dark Lord of the Sith himelf thus making the Sith Order stronger than ever! Ideal Sith, at any rate, unique, perfect being...

Darth Nihilus was a Sith'ari ...

... far more than anyone else before or after him, and we must remember the fact that his "death" is very questionable ...

[Darth Massacrus]

again, I think the facts about Lord Nihilus have been mistook. At the battle of Telos, Lord Nihilus was defeated once and for all. The only thing left of him was his mask, which escaped destruction only because Visas Marr removed it. Though a Sith Holocron that he had created still existed in the Legacy era, it was merely a repository of knowledge Nihilus knew, with its Gatekeeper being a hologram of Nihilus, not the Dark Lords actual spirit. When Nihilus fell in combat against the Exile, he was technically dead already, and his 'body' merely a shell supported by his armor, which was what held his conscience being. When it was breached in lightsaber combat with the Exile, Nihilus (already severely weakened due to having foolishly attempted to feed on the Exile) was already dying, consumed by his enslaving hunger. And in the end, his hunger consumed what little remained of him, and then burned itself out. Dark Lord Darth Nihilus, The Lord of Hunger, was no more.

[Darth Zan Maka]

Very convincive, Sir Massacrus, but not entirely. now I'll try to tell why:
All the talks about "slavery" to Hunger is inspired solely by Kreya's revengeful lies, this is her 'thoughts', her personal point of view, his behavour and deeds tells us directly opposite things about his personality, cause if you look....oh, we alredy discussed this issue, Sir Massacrus. History is written by... but still I'll add something to it
Hunger enslavement theory is based on few words of the Lord of Deception Darth Traya. And she lied all the time to everybody.
She (Darth Traya) wouldn't fear and hate him that much if he was some junkie slave blinded by hunger that almost consumed him with his armor, eating everything he sees as fast as he can in order to please his master - Hunger, no, he was very clever, reasonable in his own matter person, he co-existed, cooperated with his Hunger and used it to continue his own existence very well. She feared him because there can be only one Dark Lord of the Sith and she wasn't one; because she knew he would probably destroy all (incl. her) before his death,( so he would live long enough), she Hated him because he made her really suffer (Sion just punched and kicked her couple of times, then later cut her hand off), she feared him because he was completely different and his power was growing constantly. So she called him slave of his hunger out of fear, hatred and envy.
We breath and eat all the time, we breath and eat to live, to grow up, we satisfy our oxigen and energy hunger but we don't call ourselves slaves of our lungs and stomach or breathing smthg like that. It is just the way we live. Traya would call us slaves gladly. Most Jedi prefer to die rather than to be cut off the Force, so she would call them slaves of the Force. Just the words, the label, the opinion, nothing more. But the memory remains.

And still it is not clear what that body/armor disappearing means (hunger burned itself after consuming his remains, his armor ? why not the Ravenger? why no Force disturbaces after it? Visas would die of such a death echo... and again this is not a fact, only your quess, Senator, i must admit - good one ).
Note that i said it was a questionable death, this is the fact, he was defeated due to a forgiveble but terrible mistake, yes, but Dead?No. No one can say that for sure. Some people think that he stored his concience in his Mask this time. But I think that dissolvement of his armor along with concience creates more questions than answers. We can only quess.
O'K I'll put it that way: it is more than easy to any author to resurrect him concidering the situation with his defeat.

When he battled Exile he was not even technically dead,( all our bodyes is merely a shell for concience),but of cource his body was heavily modified and he was a one-of-a-kind superiour being, his hunger forced his change, adaption, and evolution above all others.
He was different by his nature, but not damaged can't you see? He had his special needs. He was like a wolf in a field full of sheeps, no shepard this time. So he had a long time to keep himself from starving to death. Btw hunger started to actually weaken him only after he tried to feed on Exile, as Kreya predicted, no problems before, he feeded the life forms around him, he simply satisfied his hunger through destruction, which was an easy thing to do in his case. His hunger was not his desease, it was his way to survuve and pursue goal of each Sith - UNLIMITED POWER.
They all were nothing but the victims for him. He was a perfect predator but they "stopped" him 'cause there would be no stories after. No competition. Total Domination.

"There are techniques within the force against which there is no defence"...
that was the good way to describe Force abilities and skills of Darth Nihilus,
who grew stronger with every kill he made and he had to kill constantly,
'till the point when his mere presence would kill all around him, planets
and whole systems
"and then all would fell into the darkness"

He fits very good into the role of perfect being from ancient prophesy, much better then anyone else.

Admit it Senator Massacrus, even you don't doubt his unparalelled powers anymore.

[Darth Zan Maka]

Peaceful and quiet, yet I know DM disagree completely '

I don't see the point to continue, i am sure: hunger was uncontrollable source of great power of Darth Nihilus, like a constant wind for the windmill, as i said. Nihilus was not the hunger's tool, he just mastered the way to use it's power, staying wise and cautious person, as we can see out of the way he lived. *etc* His powers grew rapidly. *etc*. .. no other Sith was as powerful as he ..and it's all just a little bit of history repeating...
Each of us has the right to stay with his opinion. Only two firm points of view on the theory about hunger slavery of the Lord of Hunger. And no doubts about tremendous power he had in possession. My deep respect to Senator Massacrus for this conversation, it was a pleasure.

[Jedi Master Elad Kenobi]

Yes, all that is true, apart from ''he was the best sith ever''. Come on, he could not hold his own in combat! As a great man once said: ''What use is power if there is only a thin veil to guard it?''

[Darth Zan Maka]

... Come on, he could not hold his own in combat! ...
I just can't believe you seriously think so. This is a 100% pure provocation.
As Darth Massacrus once said, " don't let me dissuade you".

[Darth Massacrus]

^yep, that Massacrus sure is wise, he is!

Lord Nihilus, like all Sith Lords from his time and before, had certain stregnths, this I never did deny, but for some odd reason, nobody mentions that the skills I feel truly exemplfy him (his abilty to hold together the Ravager, his tactical sense). Instead, folks mention his hunger (which he could not control, as Kotor 2 very specifically says), and his lightsaber dueling skills, which were not nearly as potent as his Force Powers. The Lord of Hunger had stregnths, but also weaaknesses that in my mind prevent him from being THE most powerful Sith ever to live.

[Darth Zan Maka]

Hunger is not a weakness!!! Look up:

I say Nihilus was the most powerful, He was able to tear his flagship and Entire fleet from Malachor IV, and all he had to do was speak to Anihilate all life on Katarr.

"...(his abilty to hold together the Ravager, his tactical sense)..."

"...grew stronger with every kill he made 'till the point when his mere presence would kill all around him, planets
and whole systems"
- forget the lightsaber duel (other league, lsaber is a toy for him, btw even if someone would cross him in full power Nihilus would win -he used other form, unheard of before and after him - he could use the lightsaber and the Force simultaneously, by both hands, which is perfect in his case.)

"There are techniques within the force against which there is no defence"...

So:.." you're entitled to your opinion just as I am mine"

O'K, I'll ask again...
Who can be compared to him amongst other Sith Lords, Jedi Masters?
Look at these examples, a few of them, who had power of that magnitude? Kill me with the answer, you will.

[DarthRevan999]

I would say Revan would be the most powerful Sith to ever live because he was one of the smartest Sith to ever live (I would say Palpatine is the smartest), was great at using the force, not including his strong tie to it.
I will say this however, Nihilus was very powerful, but like many others have said, he wasn't good at controlling it unlike Revan, but he would be in my top 10 maybe top 5.
For all those Kreia fans out there, you must have forgot that in KotOR 2 she said that Revan was the strongest Jedi she has ever known and that she said he was the life of the force, or something like that.
Not only that but Revan was tought by Kreia and many other Jedi masters. While he was the Sith Lord he also controlled most of the galaxy (again I give props to Palpatine because he controlled the galaxy). He converted most of the Jedi to the Sith and killed quite a few more. He destroyed the Mandalorians to the point where they could not recover fully.
And as for his talents, he was a great military mind, a great fighter, one of the best leaders known(got more than half the Jedi Order to join him in the Mandalorian Wars).
Darth Bane got the idea of "the rule of two" from Revans holocron on Lehon. Bane also got his strength, power, and knowledge from the teachings he got from Revan holocron.

[Darth Massacrus]

well, I certainly agree with you in that Revan was one of the more mentally adept Sith Lords out there.


On another point, you mentioned how Kreia said that Revan was the greatest Jedi she had ever trained. This was when Revan was a JEDI, not Sith. Also, she said her greatest student period wass the Exile, right before she died.

also, while Revan was Dark Lord, he probabl ruled about 60 percent of the galaxy, as KOTOR does make clear that the Core Worlds were part of the Republic, and the Republic also held more than a few key parts of the Outer Rim (Dantooine, Onderon, Taris) but all things considered, there is almost nothing to go on as to what portion or parts of the galaxy were under Sith control during the reign of Revan as Dark Lord.

[DarthRevan999]

On another point, you mentioned how Kreia said that Revan was the greatest Jedi she had ever trained. This was when Revan was a JEDI, not Sith. Also, she said her greatest student period wass the Exile, right before she died.

also, while Revan was Dark Lord, he probabl ruled about 60 percent of the galaxy, as KOTOR does make clear that the Core Worlds were part of the Republic, and the Republic also held more than a few key parts of the Outer Rim (Dantooine, Onderon, Taris) but all things considered, there is almost nothing to go on as to what portion or parts of the galaxy were under Sith control during the reign of Revan as Dark Lord.

Well first off, even though Revan was a Jedi under her training she still says something along the lines that, "Revan was the living force"(quote?) or more pointedly the force incarnate(kinda like Anakin Skywalker), and just by being the greatest student doesnt mean the strongest.

As for not knowing how much of the galaxy Revan controled while being the Darth Lord, its said "he ruled a significant portion of the Republic’s territory".

[Darth Zan Maka]

Revan is the most powerful Sith Ever to live... Let's see.
First thought, example: One single Force Strip, little suffering and humiliation after, and good bye, Revan, you know what i mean... Simple task. Living Force is a great victim for one who feeds with it its essence. No chances of survival, no way to escape inevitable truth - Revan or Kreya, they all are just toys in face of the one whose destiny is unlimited destruction.
Yes, Revan was a person of greater political influence and more than impressive personal skills and abilities, but his actual powers (even being perfectly controlled) were just not enough to overcome the phenomenal unnatural powers of Lord of Hunger. You must have a completely different understanding of what the word "powerful" means to call Darth Nihilus #5.

[Darth Massacrus]

^I would dispute this, as Revan was able to overcome both a powerful Dark Lord of the Sith AND the Star Forge simultaneously and still prevail. This is an indicator of his ability to withstand the Force corruption and draining that comes naturally to users of the Dark Side, users such as Nihilus. Also, it is worth noting that while Lord Nihilus succumbed to the destruction brought about by Malachor 5 (he had to contain his essence in his armor to survive, and was a shell of a man after that), Lord Revan was able to withstand the corruption of Malachor, and feed off of it, much as Nihilus would later try to do (only to be consumed by his own Hunger). In addition, I feel that powerful Sith must have some knowledge of Sith lore and history, so that not only can they learn from others mistakes (vice repeating them), but enhance thier own abilities. Nihilus, while he did create a Sith Holocron, pales in comparison to Revan in this regard, who learned not only the secrets of the Sith from worlds such s Korriban and Malachor 5, but also of Jedi lore from Master Kreia/Kae and of the culture and history of the greatest Force users, The Rakata. However, in terms of knowledge of history, both Revan and Nihilus pale in comparison to Darthh Traya, who had essentially mastered the secrets of Malachor, Korriban, the Sith, and Jedi, and was a primary source of knowledge for Lord Revan and Lord Nihilus (who 'cared nothing for the Sith and its teachings').

[Darth Zan Maka]

Thats right, he cared nothing for Sith teachings because he had his own way and had everything he needed already he didn't "try" to feed on life, he did (he was good there) , and again you can't deny if there would not be Exile Force Strip mistake there would not be a hunger consuming theory. I respect Revan, frankly i like this character a lot, he was talented and educated but i am completely sure he would loose head-to-head battle against Nihilus just as Darth Traya did, well may be the process could be a little longer. Btw in my opinion Exile would prevail in combat against Revan too. But you right about education - Kreya was a living library of knowledge - that is the reason for her obvious huge fear towards Nihilus to play in the game as a strong card too.

[DarthRevan999]

You must have a completely different understanding of what the word "powerful" means to call Darth Nihilus #5.
Just because one is strong does not mean they're powerful. Look at Kreia, not the strongest of the bunch but powerful. Look at Sion, very strong but not as powerful as the Exile. And with Nihilus, same as Sion very strong but not as powerful as the Exile. And essentially the Exile had the same power as Nihilus and she could control it better than he could. And as for Nihilus being in my top 5 would be a long shot but I would for sure say top 10.

[Darth Massacrus]

^right on, Lord Revan!http://www.galacticsenate.com/images/icons/icon14.gif


I think we ought to compile a list of Sith, and weed out ones that do not fit the category of mosst powerful. Once it is down to 15 or so, then we will order them. Below is the start of the list, feel free to add to it. (just make sure that the individual is Sith)


Horak Mul
Dor Gal Ram
Ludo Kressh
Simus
Bo Vanda
Marka Ragnos
Naga Sadow
Dathka Graush
Adas
Ajunta Pall
Tulak Hord
Garu
Shar Dakhan
Tritos Nall
Darth Andeddu
Exar Kun
Freedon Nadd
Ulic Qel Droma
Darth Malak
Darth Revan
Darth Sion
Darth Nihilus
Darth Traya
Darth Rivan
Dark Underlord
Belia Darzu
Darth Bane
Lord Kaan
Darth Zannah
Darth Vectivus
Darth Cognus
Darth Millennial
Darth Plagueis
Darth Sidious
Darth Vader
Darth Maul
Darth Tyrannus
Jacen Solo
Lady Lumiya
Carnor Jax
Flint
Darth Krayt
Darth Wyrrlock
Darth Talon
Darth Nihil

[Darth Zan Maka]

And withNihilus, same as Sion very strong but not as powerful as the Exile. And essentially the Exile had the same power as Nihilus and she could control it better than he could.
:)
- Well known is the fact that Exile won the battle against Nihilus single due to one fatal mistake, he was not comparable to him. Without that mistake he would be eliminated there on Ravager. Exile had not the same power, he had power of similar origin much much less developed when Nihilus's power was in any way. So Nihilus was as weakened as he never was before in the beginning of that battle, and that was the only lucky chance for Exile to win, predicted by Kreya. Exile was just a trap. The fact that you think Exile really was more powerful made me sure you understand this word ... differently.

- We were speaking a lot about the control over power before, so you may just read it there (source/usage), he had no single problem there, actually, quite opposite...

-You prove the fact that strong is not powerful pointing on Sion ? Why? He was not even close to Nihilus, when Sion tried to argue with Nihilus he was brought down to the floor in 2 seconds. As did Kreya before. As would Revan or any other from your top 5 or top 10.

No one could stand in his way really hoping to overcome, thats what i call powerful; when the fate of the person in elimination of all life and he has everything to do it whithin him, - this is real Power, other examples are numerous and i see no point to repeat myself. Your attempts to dispute his exellence in power over the other Sith made me more convinced in my point when i was before, DarthRevan999.

[Darth Massacrus]

^actually, the 'video' with Sion confronting Nihilus is a fan made film. It is made from salvaged dialog cut from K2 and custom animations. It wont even be part of the TSLRP, and is not canonical SW material.

[Darth Zan Maka]

^ I knew you'd react that way. Can't tell you wrong there. The video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_4r6GjgWDI&mode is not a 100% fan made clip. Base of this scene was created by the programmers, but then later cut out from the final product. Think of it as the sequence was deactivated, and all darkwarrior did is just visualization of that scene. Some people add that there should also be a phrase " Do you think I fear you, Nihilus?" The reason of the cut is simple, and you know it - Obsidian was in a great hurry there. Yes it is not incuded by Team Gizka into TSLRP, so it is just another what if... if you like. No need to discuss it furthermore.

Anyway i am sure it is a good battle to illustrate what would've happened to those who cross his way, nobody can seriously doubt the results. I don't think Revan, or Darth Bane, or even Ragnos, could resist him, though it seems to me they were the best of the best. He was just different, he was creature close to the impossible stage of evolution, almost a God of elimination, defeated only by luck in the very beginning of his glory. That' how i understad his true Path. But wait, i know the words to help me once and for all:

Originally Posted by Darth Massacrus http://galacticsenate.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?p=828269#post828269)
certain aspects were mastered more fully than others by certain Sith, to be sure, but when one gains the ability to eradicate something for all time, there really isnt any more potent measure or indicator of power or mastery.

That's exactly what i think.


I didn't tend to discuss the list you offered there, Sir Massacrus, but it's interesting thing to do and i will make my selection, (using those words. :) ) i quess it'll take some time .I surprized myself of the results of our discussion here, really. So i quess my 10-15 will not include my true choise - Darth Nihilus.

P.S. You know , Darth Traya herself put him on top by saying: "One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do." - "we" obviously means all other force-sensitives, ALL of them. And she actually was one of the most powerful of them ever to live. These words are the key to understand his real powers.

[nea200pl]

I would say Darth Vader as number one. I think he was extremly powerful and had knowledge of both sides. If he got his full abillities and was not so horribly damaged on Mustafar no one knows what could happen. I've read somwhere that even Sidious stop training him after some time as he become to strong for him.

[Darth Massacrus]

well, there is some valididty to that point of view, as he did indeed have probably more potential than any other force user ever, but as he was never able to truly unleash it thanks to both the machinations of another Sith Lord and due to a miscalculation on Mustafar. While certainly the Sith with the most potential, he wasnt the Sith with the most actual power, as after Mustafar he wasnt as strong in the Force as Lord Sidious or his son.

[Darth Zan Maka]

So... It seems Nihilus is the most powerful Sith ever - and "hunger" card can't be played against that point of view - that was just one of the sources of his outstanding abilities. Just to finish this all.

[VADERGOTH]

i agree how could vader not become the most powerfull sith in there history he was born by the midichlorians the power that all force users use created him logicaly he would have intimate agreement with the force makeing him more powerfull than any for instance when vader force chokes people he need only look at them take admiral ozzel for example (on the screen in his meditation chamber) his mechanical arms cannot focus force lightning so when obi wan butchered him he affectivly stoped anakin becoming the most powerfull being known in the galaxy
but take injurys aside darth vader was driven by love and passion and if i remember rightly passion gives a sith there strenth anakin/vader was the most passionate sith of all

[Darth Nameless]

ok well for me Darth Plagueis is the most powerfull...you have to admit that some one who can cheat death or even create life is the most powerful of all...and in my opinion he created anakin...and to further drive this argument home he was the only one that knew that power...sidious said so when vader was born...cause together they were suppose to unlock that power together :sidxmas: :maulxmas:

[Darth Massacrus]

I don't know... not too much is known about Plagueis, but The Essential Guide to the Force (releasing this month) should shed light on this....

I still side with Traya, but an excellent case can indeed be made for Plagueis:

knew how to manipulate midi-chlorians, something nobody else has ever been known to do (probably the greatest Force power)
knew a lot of Sith history (had several Sith Holocrons)
likely knew Jedi lore as well (Palpatine did say that his mentor taught him everything about the Force)
was proficient with a lightsaber (see image below)file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/JOHNFL%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/JOHNFL%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg

[Lord Tesla]

was proficient with a lightsaber (see image below)

A most interesting image, but precisely how it suggests Plagueis lightsaber proficiency escapes me. There is a Sith-red saber blade, and two figures, but neither one doing anything requiring more proficiency than knowing how to find the switch and keep a grip, and one doing a great deal less even than that, having a grip on nothing but the arms of his chair. Which are we to take as Plagueis, the seated figure with obscured face, or the figure of which only a shoulder and and an arm appear? The former, I assume given that he appears old, ominous, and anonymous.

(Is the image a preview of things to come, or from an already-published source?)

Not that the case can't be made that Plagueis was a first rate swordsman. There being only two Sith at any one time, it follows that he must have been, otherwise, where would Sidious have learned the sword-arts, which he most obviously possessed, and plainly passed on to his apprentice?

[Darth Nameless]

ok probley a stupid question...where did you find pic...and how did find that kinda info on plegas?? kinda new at this if you havent noticed lol

[alew773]

hey man there are lots of ways to find info on the starwars world one of my personal favorite is www.wikipedia.com (http://www.wikipedia.com ifo) i found lots of info on starwars eu there

[Darth Massacrus]

The Plagueis image is one of the pieces of artwork from the Essential Guide to the Force. The info on him having the Sith Holocrons comes from Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, in which Palpatine's thoughts recall that he had been allowed to see his Master's collection of Sith Holocrons. Almost nothing else is known of Plagueis.

for more info on anything Star Wars (anything) Wookiepedia (the Star Wars wiki) is the best source (even if it is unofficial):

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

[Darth Nameless]

awsome...thanks a bunch...i will definatly check that site out!

[jedimasterElizabeth]

Talking about Sith, you guys should try this website. It is hilarious:

http://darth.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

[Lord Tesla]

The Plagueis image is one of the pieces of artwork from the Essential Guide to the Force.

Ah. It may prove more interesting than I've anticipated. A little later today, I hope to find out for sure.

The info on him having the Sith Holocrons comes from Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, in which Palpatine's thoughts recall that he had been allowed to see his Master's collection of Sith Holocrons.

I should have known that, having read the book when it came out. Luceno's prose may have more profound deleterious effects than I'd realized...

Almost nothing else is known of Plagueis.

Good! Since I remember knowing very little else about him, that comes as quite a relief.:)

for more info on anything Star Wars (anything) Wookiepedia (the Star Wars wiki) is the best source (even if it is unofficial):

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Indeed, I am familiar with it, and have found it useful in the past. I suspect I shall be making more use of it in the future.

[Darth Massacrus]

Remember that Plagueis image from the new Essential Force Guide? The one that seemed to show him with a lightsaber? Well, I had only seen half of the image. The entire image actually shows Palpatine during his apprenticeship to Plagueis, holding a Sith lightsaber while Plagueis merely looks on. Below is the full image. Darth Massacrus apologizes for any confusion this may have caused, and would like it known that there is now that much less info known about Darth Plagueis.

[Darth Nameless]

its all good...and i have checked out that web site already...spent about 3 hours surfing...now my star wars cup has overflowith:w00t::yeah: