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Fish1941
11-28-2006, 05:42 PM
EPISODE 2 – ATTACK OF THE CLONES

Notes and Observations

The following is a list of minor notes and observations that came to me, during my recent viewing of “Episode II: Attack of the Clones”. I hope that you enjoy them:

*It is interesting that the story starts out with Coruscant – the seat of the Republic’s power – covered in a shroud of fog. Was this an allegory of the Republic’s impending doom? Or a sign of hidden secrets within the seats of power?

*Why did the Jedi believe they would have to protect the Republic in a military action, if the Separatists broke away? It seems as if the Republic and the Jedi were prepared to consider using military force to draw the Separatists back into the Republic, against their will.

*I noticed that both Mace and Ki-Adi had the same condescending attitude that the entire Council had in TPM, when explaining to Padme that Dooku could never be behind her assassination attempt.

*Why was it so important to Obi-Wan that he and Anakin follow the Council’s instructions regarding Padme, to the letter?

*I wonder if Jango would have killed Zam if she had succeeded in killing Padme.

*Are dreams usually dismissed by the Jedi in such a cavalier fashion?

*No wonder the Jedi and senators like Bail Organa had never formed a strong bond by ROTS, if Obi-Wan’s general attitude toward all politicians (which the Order shares, I suspect) is anything to go by.

*The more I look at Anakin and Obi-Wan’s interactions in AOTC, the more I realize how unsuited they were for a master/padawan relationship. Anakin would have been better off being trained by someone more suited to deal with his emotional and non-conformist personality. However, I see nothing wrong with Anakin and Obi-Wan forming a strong friendship, once Anakin becomes a Jedi Knight.

*I wonder if Anakin’s feelings about Palpatine would have remained the same if Obi-Wan had been less strident in his teaching.

*How interesting. Obi-Wan ended up following Anakin’s suggested mandate regarding Padme’s would-be assassin, after all.

*The Coruscant chase sequence is another major favorite with me. Note the slightly chubby woman with Ahmed Best and a silver-blond woman with too much eye make-up, both giving Anakin lust-filled glances in the nightclub scene. Come to think of it, I believe I had spotted two other women doing the same.

*”Until caught this killer is, our judgement she must respect.” – Why did Yoda believe that Padme MUST accept the Jedi’s decision that she return to Naboo? I realize that he is concerned for her safety. But why would he assume that she had no choice but to accept the Council’s decision on where she should be? At least Mace seemed to realize that Padme would obey if Palpatine, as the Supreme Chancellor, had given the order.

*When discussing his abilities with Palpatine, Anakin is polite and practically modest. Yet, whenever he is around Obi-Wan or discussing the latter, he becomes arrogant about his abilities and bitter at what he perceives as Obi-Wan’s inability to recognize them.

*”Anakin . . . don’t try to grow up too fast.” – It is ironic that Padme would say this to Anakin, considering that she has been trying to do this very thing for most of her life.

*Although Captain Typho’s assumption on the safety of Padme’s arrival on Coruscant proved to be false, his fear that she might do something foolish or rash proved to be very accurate.

*”If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist.” – ah, another prime example of the Jedi’s arrogant belief in themselves. Who would have thought it would come from the Archives’ librarian?

*Anakin might be pretty close to the truth in the definition of love he had given to Padme.

*Despite the sweet and charming overtones of the younglings scene, it still has a sinister sense of the foreboding.

*It is interesting how ALL of the Separatists are tainted with the same brush as the Trade Federation and the Banking Union, because they had sought the latter for help. Guilt by association.

*When Sio Biddle had asked Anakin a question about Padme’s safety, Padme rudely interrupts and brushes off Anakin. Now, why did she do that? And in such a rude manner?

*It’s interesting how the imagery and symbolism on Kamino seemed to be of the fertile kind.

*I just realized that if Palpatine had eventually accused the Jedi of creating the Clone Army, he would have been correct. Especially since Master Sifo-Dyas really did order the creation of the clones for the Republic.

*For someone with hardly any experience in romance, Anakin managed to do a good job in winning over Padme without resorting to smooth lines and a cocky manner.

*Of course . . . Padme seemed to be a bit of a flirt, herself. She certainly knows how to use her voice effectively.

*In an article on Anakin and Padme’s relationship, I read a segment from a poem or story written hundreds of years ago that was compared to Anakin’s fireside speech. What amazed me was how similar Anakin’s speech was to what is considered courtly love.

*I noticed that once Padme had rejected Anakin’s offer of love, he turned away from her. And she, in turn, began to pursue him in a very subtle manner.

*It is ironic that Anakin believes that he did not have a choice in leaving Naboo to help his mother. In reality, he did have a choice . . . and he exercised it. Like the other characters around him, Anakin has become adept at deluding himself.

*I see that Obi-Wan had made the first move in his fight with Jango Fett on Kamino. Not only did it result in him nearly falling over a ledge, it was the movie’s first sign of the “good guys” acting as the aggressors.

*”Those Tusken Raiders. They may walk like men, but they’re nothing more than vicious, mindless monsters.” – Judging from Cliegg Lars’ words, I cannot help but wonder if Anakin’s murder of the Tusken Raiders was something rare on Tatooine. Would Anakin’s actions have been condoned by Tatooine’s moisture farmers? Cliegg’s words seemed to have a xenophobic ring to them.

*When Padme told Anakin that it was okay to be angry, she was right. It was okay. It would have been a lot unhealthier for Anakin to pretend otherwise. But where Anakin went wrong was that he had allowed his anger to overwhelm him . . . which led to his murder of the Tuskens.

*Anakin’s claim that he would even learn to stop people from dying seemed to foreshadow his opera conversation with Palpatine in ROTS.

*If Jar-Jar had not proposed that Palpatine should be given emergency powers, I wonder who would have made the proposition? Bail Organa had been certain that the Senate would never grant such powers to the Chancellor or authorize a clone army. Boy, was he wrong!

*Did Obi-Wan’s own prejudices and beliefs in the Jedi’s infallibility led him to easily dismiss Dooku’s claim that a Sith Lord had control over the Senate?
*I think that Padme’s arrogant belief in her diplomatic skills were in overdrive, when she and Anakin learned about Obi-Wan’s predicament. I can see why Typho had been worried that she would do something rash.

*It seems interesting that Anakin was the only one who had managed to control the attacking him in the Geonosis area, without resorting to brute force. Was this a metaphor of his potential to control (but not suppress) the animus within himself? A potential that he had failed to attain until the end of his life?

*Obi-Wan, on the other hand, succeeded in dealing with his animal attacker with brute force . . . just as he had succeeded with Maul and Anakin. Was this a foreshadow of his advocacy of Luke using violence to deal with Vader/Anakin in the Original Trilogy?

*I suspect that Jango’s success in killing Jedi Master Coleman Trebor had gone to his head, when he had decided to attack Mace. Just as many of the Jedi have discovered in this movie and will discover in ROTS, Jango will learn that it does not pay to be the aggressor.

*I did not realize that the Republic and the Jedi had acquired both troops and weapons from the Kaminoans.

*It is interesting that Obi-Wan’s threat of expulsion from the Jedi Order did not faze Anakin one bit, in his concern for the fallen Padme. Either the Jedi Order was never that important enough to Anakin . . . or it was too important to Obi-Wan. Or perhaps it was both.

*Both Anakin and Obi-Wan made the mistake of aggressively moving against Dooku, first. And both had failed. Again, this seemed to be another example of the Jedi’s acceptance of using aggression in this movie.

*Anakin vs. Dooku – it’s ironic that this was the first duel between Palpatine’s present and future apprentices.

*Dooku, who had wisely allowed both Obi-Wan and Anakin to be the aggressors, became the aggressor, himself, in his duel against Yoda. He had barely managed to escape with his life.

*The failure of aggression committed by our heroes and by villains like Dooku and Jango seemed to be the theme for this movie . . . and perhaps the Prequel Trilogy overall. This theme seems especially true for the Jedi, who had agreed to use the clone troopers against the Separatists. The same clone troopers that will become the tools of their destruction. Irony at its most tragic.

*Looking back on AOTC, it strikes me as being a very nourish story, despite the some of the usual STAR WARS elements. Perhaps that is why so many people have difficulty in accepting it. Film noir can be highly regarded – or not. But people rarely understand it, or bother to watch it in the movie theaters.

techno-union
11-29-2006, 01:10 AM
Attack of the clones is one of my favorites, it was the movie that really got me into Star Wars (again) Loved it when I was a kid, passing interest as a teenager. About a year before it came out I watched all the movies again, and got really excited about EP2. Then when I saw it, it blew me away, I thought it was awesome and it still is.

It is interesting that the story starts out with Coruscant – the seat of the Republic’s power – covered in a shroud of fog. Was this an allegory of the Republic’s impending doom? Or a sign of hidden secrets within the seats of power?


Well spotted, I reckon that was GL's exact intention.


Why did the Jedi believe they would have to protect the Republic in a military action, if the Separatists broke away? It seems as if the Republic and the Jedi were prepared to consider using military force to draw the Separatists back into the Republic, against their will.


The Seperatist dispute was already causing headaches for the Jedi in terms of peace a security, that situation in itself may have been untenable. If the Seps simply walked away form the negotiation table, perhaps they figured war was the only way to restore peace. Another reason could be that perhaps palps and/or many senators had already made up there mind that if the seps broke away fully with no chance of re-uniting they would not accept an economic and military rival to build up unchecked.


I noticed that both Mace and Ki-Adi had the same condescending attitude that the entire Council had in TPM, when explaining to Padme that Dooku could never be behind her assassination attempt.


It does seem pretty ignorant given it's also not in a Jedi's nature to break free of the order, and start up a new government like the CIS which is commited to 'absolute capitalism, delivering profits beyond their wildest imaginations'. I have read though that many people thought the bad things done by the Seps were done by people simply using Dooku's name, rather than being authorised by himself.


When discussing his abilities with Palpatine, Anakin is polite and practically modest. Yet, whenever he is around Obi-Wan or discussing the latter, he becomes arrogant about his abilities and bitter at what he perceives as Obi-Wan’s inability to recognize them.

Probably cos Palps is always big noting Anakin and feeding his ego, therefore he feels he has nothing to prove. The opposite with Obi-Wan

I just realized that if Palpatine had eventually accused the Jedi of creating the Clone Army, he would have been correct. Especially since Master Sifo-Dyas really did order the creation of the clones for the Republic.

The sifo-dyas thing, not only providing the Jedi with a dead end when investigating the army creation, it prevents them from accusing Palpatine himself.

For someone with hardly any experience in romance, Anakin managed to do a good job in winning over Padme without resorting to smooth lines and a cocky manner.

Anakins romance lines have been criticesd as cheesy and unrealistic. But when you think about it, he's an emotional bloke having grown up in the formal setting of the Jedi Temple. He doesn't even know what it feels like when your in love "Her presence is intoxicating". When faced with Padme, he does the best he can. The whole 'i hate sand' bit, whilst sounding cringeworthy was a typical guy attempt at switching a normal conversation to something that'l get you a kiss (and it worked!). . The Jedi training, teachers you how to suppress or not pursue love and attachments and it certainly doesn't teach you what to do to when you want to pursue those feelings.

In an article on Anakin and Padme’s relationship, I read a segment from a poem or story written hundreds of years ago that was compared to Anakin’s fireside speech. What amazed me was how similar Anakin’s speech was to what is considered courtly love.

Again I agree 100%

I did not realize that the Republic and the Jedi had acquired both troops and weapons from the Kaminoans.

I'd love to see some backstory as to how they kept the building of a such a massive fleet and war machines a secret. Also how did it get paid for, was there a money trail?

The Arbiter
11-29-2006, 03:13 AM
Actually I think the fog was just an indication of how amazingly tall Coruscant's spacescrapers are, but you might be right.

I reckon that the romance was executed as per Luca's vision, but it ruined the emotional resonance of their relationship for me. Romance, in movies, should be built upon common ground and shared adventure. Anakin and Padme had virtually no common ground; the romance was never adequately explained.

James
11-29-2006, 04:05 AM
^and that's why the romance never worked - they were on a totally different emotional level.

lovelucas
11-29-2006, 10:50 AM
nice job Fish - I too love AotC and watch it more than any other episode.
*I noticed that both Mace and Ki-Adi had the same condescending attitude that the entire Council had in TPM, when explaining to Padme that Dooku could never be behind her assassination attempt -
"It's not in his nature" Mace says about Dooku - thus discounting Padme's rather astute instinct and observations and displaying that old Jedi arrogance.

*Why was it so important to Obi-Wan that he and Anakin follow the Council’s instructions regarding Padme, to the letter? That's exactly the kind of Jedi Obi-Wan is.

Anakin would have been better off being trained by someone more suited to deal with his emotional and non-conformist personality. No question about that but a promise is a promise (see above response regarding Obi-Wan)

*In an article on Anakin and Padme’s relationship, I read a segment from a poem or story written hundreds of years ago that was compared to Anakin’s fireside speech. What amazed me was how similar Anakin’s speech was to what is considered courtly love.Which was always intended by George even though he knew there would be howls from insecure fanboys.....

*I noticed that once Padme had rejected Anakin’s offer of love, he turned away from her. And she, in turn, began to pursue him in a very subtle manner. Into denial even as she's doing the dance of love......and what she chooses to wear also betrays her true feelings.

*It is ironic that Anakin believes that he did not have a choice in leaving Naboo to help his mother. In reality, he did have a choice . . . .
Here I disagree..if you know and actually see, via dreams, your mother being tortured to death and you have the means to rescue her there is only one choice.

I see that Obi-Wan had made the first move in his fight with Jango Fett on Kamino. Not only did it result in him nearly falling over a ledge, it was the movie’s first sign of the “good guys” acting as the aggressors.
and notice it is Obi-Wan who actually draws his lightsaber first on Mustafar.

*Anakin’s claim that he would even learn to stop people from dying seemed to foreshadow his opera conversation with Palpatine in ROTS. It's all going as George has forseen - and planned all along the way no matter what the critics say.

*The failure of aggression committed by our heroes and by villains like Dooku and Jango seemed to be the theme for this movie . . . and perhaps the Prequel Trilogy overall. George, as well as the Jedi are peacekeepers and part of the brilliance of Palpatine (and thereby George) is his patience and very long term planning - to engineer events to where the Jedi are forced to abandon those peacekeeping Jedi duties and jump into the fray as generals and leaders of the war effort. They have lost their way and don't even know they were actually led astray deliberately....by the Dark Side.

Fish1941
11-29-2006, 11:42 AM
Romance, in movies, should be built upon common ground and shared adventure. Anakin and Padme had virtually no common ground; the romance was never adequately explained.


You do realize that you've just described Leia and Han, do you? And since when can love be "adequately explained"? Why do people think it can be?

Master of Brooms
11-29-2006, 12:52 PM
Great obs, Fish!


*It is interesting that the story starts out with Coruscant – the seat of the Republic’s power – covered in a shroud of fog. Was this an allegory of the Republic’s impending doom? Or a sign of hidden secrets within the seats of power?
I never picked this up myself, but read it here:
http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/38/clones1.htm#ref13
great minds think alike...
Makes perfect sense.


Why did the Jedi believe they would have to protect the Republic in a military action, if the Separatists broke away? It seems as if the Republic and the Jedi were prepared to consider using military force to draw the Separatists back into the Republic, against their will.
Yep, that brings on the question that runs right through the background of the PT - what exactly is the Republic (should the Republic be)? What would be more "the Republic": a smaller entity that lets the Seps go their own way, or one that remains the same size through force? (Ironically it's Palps who does the best job of achieving the latter!)

Are dreams usually dismissed by the Jedi in such a cavalier fashion?
Taking Yoda's reaction to Anakin's dreams in ROTS, joining the dots and plotting the graph, I'd say yes, definitely - if the dreams have enough emotional force to undermine the idea that Jedi aren't prone to emotion.

No wonder the Jedi and senators like Bail Organa had never formed a strong bond by ROTS, if Obi-Wan’s general attitude toward all politicians (which the Order shares, I suspect) is anything to go by.
You pointed out earlier that the Jedi were prepared to bring the Separatists back "into the fold" by force if necessary. But now you point out (correctly) that they don't get on well with politicians. Can't help thinking that the Jedi are either pretty confused or really DO have their own agenda/own vision of the Republic, independent of the politicians. Which makes Palps' accusations against them in ROTS entirely believable.

The more I look at Anakin and Obi-Wan’s interactions in AOTC, the more I realize how unsuited they were for a master/padawan relationship. Anakin would have been better off being trained by someone more suited to deal with his emotional and non-conformist personality.
Like Qui-Gonn, for example? Rollafett started a thread on the Duel of the Fates a while back, and my idea on that was that the whole importance of the duel (in retrospect) was that it got rid of QG, someone who understood this "Chosen One" business from the inside, and left Obi to deal with Anakin as just a legacy from his master, without really understanding what was going on.

I wonder if Anakin’s feelings about Palpatine would have remained the same if Obi-Wan had been less strident in his teaching.
Not if he'd been QG. I can't see QG getting strident in the same way, or failing to notice the Palpy relationship. Good point you make, maybe Obi gets strident because he just isn't suited to this padawan (though he's fond of him) and knows it.

How interesting. Obi-Wan ended up following Anakin’s suggested mandate regarding Padme’s would-be assassin, after all.
You're right, very interesting. He just caves in at that point; because Anakin says something that proves that A is more politically switched-on than him. It's a great scene, because at first it looks as though A is just showing off, offering to do anything to impress Padme; but then it turns out Anakin has another very good reason for this. How could Obi deal gracefully with a padawan like that?

The Coruscant chase sequence is another major favorite with me. Note the slightly chubby woman with Ahmed Best and a silver-blond woman with too much eye make-up, both giving Anakin lust-filled glances in the nightclub scene. Come to think of it, I believe I had spotted two other women doing the same.
I noticed that as well, I like it a lot. It's the only time in the PT that ordinary people come into shot - apart from as spectators to a big ceremony or pod-race. And it gives A's "attitude" some justification: in the context of senators and Jedi he's a just young, arrogant guy who's too big for his boots - but put him in among a crowd of ordinary folk and he's HOT stuff. I reckon A is carrying this in his mind the whole way, he's never fitted into that senator/Jedi world - because (I forgot!) there is another point in the PT where the film focuses on "ordinary" people: Anakin and his mother in TPM. The world Anakin has never really left behind.

”Until caught this killer is, our judgement she must respect.” – Why did Yoda believe that Padme MUST accept the Jedi’s decision that she return to Naboo? I realize that he is concerned for her safety. But why would he assume that she had no choice but to accept the Council’s decision on where she should be? At least Mace seemed to realize that Padme would obey if Palpatine, as the Supreme Chancellor, had given the order.
Good question. I'm seeing a picture here building up, of the Jedi/senator power-world being a bit stuck up their own ***es, not really giving recognition to A and Padme - who then go and do their own thing and bring the whole power-structure crashing down.

*”Anakin . . . don’t try to grow up too fast.” – It is ironic that Padme would say this to Anakin, considering that she has been trying to do this very thing for most of her life.
DING! Right on the money!

Anakin might be pretty close to the truth in the definition of love he had given to Padme.
Which one do you mean?

Despite the sweet and charming overtones of the younglings scene, it still has a sinister sense of the foreboding.
You're onto something there, though I can't identify what it is that has that effect. I reckon it's more than just your mind automatically thinking of the other time we see younglings in ROTS.

It is interesting how ALL of the Separatists are tainted with the same brush as the Trade Federation and the Banking Union, because they had sought the latter for help. Guilt by association.
Yeah, very confusing, if you think about it. Who's in the right here?

It’s interesting how the imagery and symbolism on Kamino seemed to be of the fertile kind.
I LOVE the Kamino atmosphere, with the constant storms, rain and waves, and that music John Williams puts to it. That article I linked to at the top says some interesting things about it.
I like the way that on Kamino Obi-wan is completely "at sea". He lets Jango get the advantage of him in their conversation in Jango's quarters. Temuera Morrison is perfect casting for exactly that scene: a Maori from the most remote place on earth completely intimidating a Jedi without making any explicit threat - there's an undercurrent of "you're in my world now and I know you're off-balance so I'll push you a bit further off-balance" in the scene which is all it takes to confuse Obi.
Over in the fan fiction forum Sam has posted a re-write of Kamino where Obi is much more decisive, acting like we expect a Jedi would and immediately attempting to arrest Jango. It's a great rewrite but it loses this element of Kamino being a completely fluid, confusing place where Obi loses the ground he needs to stand on.

On the fertile aspect of it - a few weeks ago I realised that Jango = Chango/Xango, one of the Orishas in the Yoruba religion; a god of war and passion, who fathers innumerable sons!

Of course . . . Padme seemed to be a bit of a flirt, herself. She certainly knows how to use her voice effectively.
Definitely - and like someone else pointed out, look at the clothes she wears on Naboo! Hardly practical, comfortable holiday clothing; or just smart and impressive for a rising politician...

lovelucas
11-29-2006, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by Fish1941 (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?p=800299#post800299)
Despite the sweet and charming overtones of the younglings scene, it still has a sinister sense of the foreboding.

You're onto something there, though I can't identify what it is that has that effect. I reckon it's more than just your mind automatically thinking of the other time we see younglings in ROTS.

- for me, it's the music there at the end of the scene - when Yoda is pondering the who and the why removal from the Jedi archives "meditate on this, I will" that signals the foreboding.

Originally Posted by Fish1941 (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?p=800299#post800299)
The Coruscant chase sequence is another major favorite with me. Note the slightly chubby woman with Ahmed Best and a silver-blond woman with too much eye make-up, both giving Anakin lust-filled glances in the nightclub scene. Come to think of it, I believe I had spotted two other women doing the same.

I noticed that as well, I like it a lot. It's the only time in the PT that ordinary people come into shot - apart from as spectators to a big ceremony or pod-race.
You guys do realize that's one of George's daughters who is the "chubby" woman? Katie, I think.
and regarding the heavily made-up girl eyeing Anakin with, "interest" - this is after all the notorious part of Coruscant and her hair reminds me of the lead replicant in Ridley Scott's "Blade Runner"

Mothman
11-29-2006, 02:56 PM
EPISODE 2 – ATTACK OF THE CLONES

Notes and Observations

The following is a list of minor notes and observations that came to me, during my recent viewing of “Episode II: Attack of the Clones”. I hope that you enjoy them:

.....

Nicely done!

:bye:

jayce76
11-29-2006, 03:01 PM
I can't read:tease:

lovelucas
11-29-2006, 05:44 PM
the AotC notes that began this thread has been posted over at TFN -
Fish - are you RamRed? If not someone cribbed. I sent RamRed a p.m. indicating originality - G.S..

borgmatrix
11-30-2006, 02:25 PM
*Why did the Jedi believe they would have to protect the Republic in a military action, if the Separatists broke away? It seems as if the Republic and the Jedi were prepared to consider using military force to draw the Separatists back into the Republic, against their will.
I suppose their reasoning was similar to that of the North when the South tried to break away during the US civil war.

*I noticed that both Mace and Ki-Adi had the same condescending attitude that the entire Council had in TPM, when explaining to Padme that Dooku could never be behind her assassination attempt.
Condescending wouldn't be the right word. Slightly defensive might be a better description. Really, though, this seems to stem from knowing him a long time and truly not believing it in his character. I think there's an overall sense on their part that no Jedi, especially one of Dooku's stature, could be capable of such an act. Part of it is wishful thinking, though, and that's why I think "defensive" works a lot better. If Dooku's capable of that, then it could certainly change the way people look at the Jedi Order as a whole. None of them wanted that loss of faith in the Order.

*Why was it so important to Obi-Wan that he and Anakin follow the Council’s instructions regarding Padme, to the letter?
It's the way Obi-wan is. He's not a maverick, like Qui-gon was. If the Council gives him an order, in most cases, Obi-wan's going to do his best to carry it out the way they want.

*Are dreams usually dismissed by the Jedi in such a cavalier fashion?
I think dreams of attachment certainly would be. It's less the fact that's its a dream, and more due to the content of it. The Jedi don't want any of their members holding on to the past. And Anakin's situation is unique in that he actually remembers his mother and had established a strong relationship with her. That makes it harder, and Obi-wan wanted Anakin to let go of that past.

*The more I look at Anakin and Obi-Wan’s interactions in AOTC, the more I realize how unsuited they were for a master/padawan relationship. Anakin would have been better off being trained by someone more suited to deal with his emotional and non-conformist personality. However, I see nothing wrong with Anakin and Obi-Wan forming a strong friendship, once Anakin becomes a Jedi Knight.
I don't think they were unsuited. The problem I see is that Palpatine was coloring everything with his words to Anakin. He was subtly impressing certain ideas upon Anakin ("...you are the most gifted Jedi I haver seen", "I see you becoming the greatest of all Jedi", etc). As Anakin's mentor, I highly doubt Palpatine offered any kind of constructive criticism at any point. I'm guessing he always told the young Jedi what he wanted to hear. And that of course puts Obi-wan, any time he does disagree with Anakin, in a different light. Palpatine never gave Anakin any reason to be angry with him (until it was too late).

That's the real issue, as I see it. If Obi-wan had been able to instruct Anakin away from Palpatine's reach completely, I see things turning out very differently.

*When discussing his abilities with Palpatine, Anakin is polite and practically modest. Yet, whenever he is around Obi-Wan or discussing the latter, he becomes arrogant about his abilities and bitter at what he perceives as Obi-Wan’s inability to recognize them.
Because, as I said above, Palpatine is always stroking his ego. From Anakin's perspective, Palpatine does recognize his abilities, whereas in comparison, Obi-wan doesn't. That's how Palpatine drove a wedge between Skywalker and the Jedi.

*When Sio Biddle had asked Anakin a question about Padme’s safety, Padme rudely interrupts and brushes off Anakin. Now, why did she do that? And in such a rude manner?
It probably involved several factors. I think a large part was the fact that this was her home and her playing field, so to speak. But I also think she might have found Anakin's words to be a little too forward and suggestive of their growing relationship. Padme might have been hoping for Anakin to stay silent, and in that way not give any indication of their growing friendship. Interestingly, Anakin didn't follow her cue (much like he didn't when he argued with Obi-wan in front of Padme early in the movie), and the ensuing disagreement probably did more to spotlight their growing attachment, as it seemed less like Senator and Jedi, and more like an arguing couple. That certainly caught the attention of the others.

*In an article on Anakin and Padme’s relationship, I read a segment from a poem or story written hundreds of years ago that was compared to Anakin’s fireside speech. What amazed me was how similar Anakin’s speech was to what is considered courtly love.
I think most don't realize what Lucas' inspirations were for this scene (and really the movies on the whole), which is why this scene (and much of the saga) is often unfairly maligned.

*Anakin’s claim that he would even learn to stop people from dying seemed to foreshadow his opera conversation with Palpatine in ROTS.
It was definitely set up. But I don't see it as forshadowing, exactly, given that the two are pretty directly linked. Anakin told Palpatine about the Tusken slaughter, so Palpatine knew exactly what was troubling Anakin and told him exactly what he wanted to hear.

*Did Obi-Wan’s own prejudices and beliefs in the Jedi’s infallibility led him to easily dismiss Dooku’s claim that a Sith Lord had control over the Senate?
Dooku's claim was pretty outrageous. I doubt I would have believed it in his place. To the credit of Yoda and Mace, though, they did agree to keep a closer eye on the Senate. Unfortunately, that ultimately played into Sidious' hands. By the end of AOTC, he had already won. He needed the Jedi to be suspicious so that they would eventually come after him and he could set them up for treason.

*Obi-Wan, on the other hand, succeeded in dealing with his animal attacker with brute force . . . just as he had succeeded with Maul and Anakin. Was this a foreshadow of his advocacy of Luke using violence to deal with Vader/Anakin in the Original Trilogy?
These things could be metaphors and foreshadowing, but I mostly see it as a straightforward indication of their capability. Anakin is more powerful in the Force than probably all of the others.

*It is interesting that Obi-Wan’s threat of expulsion from the Jedi Order did not faze Anakin one bit, in his concern for the fallen Padme. Either the Jedi Order was never that important enough to Anakin . . . or it was too important to Obi-Wan. Or perhaps it was both.
Anakin was too blinded by emotion to think about any of the ramifications (similar to his loss of control with the Tuskens). Once Obi-wan was able to get through to him, by asking him what Padme would do in his place, Anakin was able to think more clearly. It was Anakin's rashness more than anything that was the issue here.

*Both Anakin and Obi-Wan made the mistake of aggressively moving against Dooku, first. And both had failed. Again, this seemed to be another example of the Jedi’s acceptance of using aggression in this movie.
If Anakin had heeded Obi-wan's word and they had attacked in tandem, things might have turned out differently. At this point, though, and regardless of who attacked first, they simply weren't powerful enough to stop him. Anakin wasn't were he needed to be as a skilled fighter. By ROTS, that had changed.

*Anakin vs. Dooku – it’s ironic that this was the first duel between Palpatine’s present and future apprentices.
I don't know that its ironic. It's the way of the Sith. Because of the "Rule of Two", if Palps wants a new Sith apprentice, the old one has to die. It's also central to the Sith that the strong survive. Both of these elements were in play, as they had been countless times in the past and will continue to be in the future of the Sith Order. Nothing surprising or ironic about it.

*Dooku, who had wisely allowed both Obi-Wan and Anakin to be the aggressors, became the aggressor, himself, in his duel against Yoda. He had barely managed to escape with his life.
Again, though, it's an issue of power and capability. Regardless of who attacked first, he wasn't strong enough to defeat Yoda.

Master of Brooms
12-01-2006, 09:08 AM
*It seems interesting that Anakin was the only one who had managed to control the attacking him in the Geonosis area, without resorting to brute force. Was this a metaphor of his potential to control (but not suppress) the animus within himself? A potential that he had failed to attain until the end of his life?
I like your thinking here! Great point. Taking it a bit further (this is fun):

Obi-wan just attacks his "beast" - exactly the aggressive stance you point out that the Jedi turn to in this film. But he fails to completely kill it - that happens later, when the cavalry have turned up. And he'd be in deep trouble at this point without Anakin.

Padme climbs up, above and away from her "beast" and manages only to keep it at a distance. She can't claim the kill: it's Anakin's "beast" down there in the beast-world she's risen above that kills it. Says something about their relationship: after all she's just thrown in her lot with someone capable of mass-slaughter, with compassion for him but possibly also just a little bit of fascination at such a powerful killer.

Anakin manages to ride his beast, and when he turns it loose it charges against his enemies the droids. Maybe he learned he could do that on Tatooine on the trail of the Tuskens?

The one beast that remains out of control is Obi-Wan's. Fits well with his character - you can imagine him shaking his head at it: "So uncivilised!".

Fish1941
12-01-2006, 12:36 PM
I suppose their reasoning was similar to that of the North when the South tried to break away during the US civil war.

Or of the South and the West, when the North threatened to seceede during the War of 1812.


Says something about their relationship: after all she's just thrown in her lot with someone capable of mass-slaughter, with compassion for him but possibly also just a little bit of fascination at such a powerful killer.

Just about all of the characters were capable of mass slaughter. Including Padme, herself. Isn't that what Anakin's character represented? Both the good and the bad in us all? And Padme had already proven to be a proficient killer in TPM . . . even if she was merely shooting at droids.

flo fett
12-02-2006, 10:56 AM
*I wonder if Jango would have killed Zam if she had succeeded in killing Padme.


I think he probably still would have. She was a loose end that needed tidying up. The Fetts strike me as the kind that don't like to leave anything out of their control.

Obidobi
12-12-2006, 08:01 AM
^ You would know.....:nahnah: :wink: