Who's The Better Duelist? Luke Or Vader?

[JediGirl16]

I'm interested to see what everyone has to say. There's no question that Vader utterly destroys Luke in ESB, but what about ROTJ?

Has Luke surpassed his father? Or was Vader conflicted and unwilling to kill his son?

Discuss.

[AlanRJ]

In ESB Luke is young and inexperienced in the ways of the Force and yes, Vader totally destroys him. In ROTJ Luke is far more stronger and more confident in his abilities. He far surpassed Vader and also, when Vader taunted him in bringing Leia into the Dark Side, he was totally unprepared for the hate and wrath that Luke showed. Luke was definitely the better of the two in that fight and had Luke given into the dark side then he would surely have been a force to reckon with and I don't think that anyone could've defeated him. Although if Leia had trained herself as a Jedi, she would have been no match for Luke but maybe he may have faltered at confronting his own sister. Who knows.

Went off the track a bit with that one but thats my two cents worth.

[Rogue_0009]

<span style="color:red">I think Luke has better natural skill and Vader has more training and experience.</span>

[spaceman2386]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif i think luke would win just because vaders suit would resrtic his movment.

[Soontir Solo]

I think the same thing Spaceman

[JediGirl16]

I disagree. Why would his suit restrict his movement? He's pretty quick and mobile for a man encased in steel. He's also strong--he can bodily lift a man with one hand.

Are you guys certain that Luke was a better fighter? He completely misses Vader twice, and basically swings his saber back and forth--while Vader just moves back. When Luke performed the same stunt in ESB, Vader handily dealt with him.

I don't think Vader was giving it his all.

[StarWarsFan1]

I think luke in rtoj, if i am correct a jedi is only soposed to draw his lightsaber in defence and luke does it first all the time, i believe that luke taps in to the dark side much more than and jedi ever.....

[JediGirl16]

Originally posted by StarWarsFan1@Mar 3 2003, 07:45 PM
I think luke in rtoj, if i am correct a jedi is only soposed to draw his lightsaber in defence and luke does it first all the time, i believe that luke taps in to the dark side much more than and jedi ever.....
That's write. Magic of Myth talks about the symbolism of Luke's attire in SW.

He wears white in ANH, symbolizing purity. He wears grey in ESB, symbolizing conflict. He wears black in ROTJ, symbolizing his inner darkness. But after Vader is redeemed, a flap of white is shown...

Interesting, right?

[Plo Koon]

Luke beat Vader twice out of three duels. He's better.

[JediGirl16]

Are you counting Splinter? Then that's not exactly fair because Obi-Wan was guiding him.

[Plo Koon]

Well considering how inexperienced Luke was in that book I think it's fair.

[JediGirl16]

Oh, so if Yoda was to suddenly seize control of Anakin's body, than Anakin would be considered better than Dooku?

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by JediGirl16@Mar 2 2003, 07:55 PM
Has Luke surpassed his father? Or was Vader conflicted and unwilling to kill his son?


Vader was conflicted and unwilling to kill his son.

Luke wasn't a lick more powerful than Vader, as seen by the fact that Vader once again becamse the good man Anakin and killed the Emporer as he couldn't stand watching his son get fried.

BTW Plo, books don't count.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> I disagree. Why would his suit restrict his movement? He's pretty quick and mobile for a man encased in steel. He's also strong--he can bodily lift a man with one hand.[/b][/quote]

Yeah the suit and 2/3 mechanical body is defineately less manueverable than Anakin was before that (*ehhem Lava pit accident) happened to him.

However, the mechanical parts more than likely make him stronger and his power in the Force is not at all weakened, but if anything it's stronger.

If he wasn't the chosen one, but just a regular old guy, the suit wouldn't do much to restore him.

[Obi-Stu]

In ESB & ROTJ Vader had expeirence on his side, I mean he's been fighting with a lightsaber for years. While Vader taught Luke a lesson in the force in ESB, Luke came back at him, and bested him in ROTJ.

The only thing that bothers me, and maybe will see more in Ep3 is that Obi-Wan mensions that Anakin should pay more attention to his lightsaber skills.

Perhaps (only speculation) Vader/Anakin isn't as good with a lightsaber as he should be.

[Darth Vegas]

Well being that he leads the Imperial Army against the Jedi, and more than likely kills a few hundred Jedi himself, I'd skill with a lightsaber is very good.

I recently converted back to the theory that Anakin will face Dooku in front of the Emporer (much like ROTJ) and kill him (remember, Dooku is considered to be the greatest duelist in the galaxy).

At the moment his saber skills might not be the best, (for that and other things he claims Obi-Wan is holding him back, which wouldn't surprise me, the Jedi are likely to be afraid of the power Anakin is capable of) but that's part of the reason he chooses the quick and easy path.

[JediGirl16]

Well, he'll train after that Dooku incident. Losing an arm is embarassing.

[Obi-Stu]

There also must have been a time after the Jedi purge that there was no one else to fight with a lightsaber, and so I quess it would be possible for Vader to become "rusty".

[Darth Vegas]

Well, the purge didn't actually end until close to ANH according to the EU.

[Jedi Killer]

we need to see a suited Vader kill lots of Jedi so we know he is that good which will make him more scary and powerful in ANH and ESB

[Obi-Stu]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Well, the purge didn't actually end until close to ANH according to the EU. [/b][/quote]

How much of the purge was Vader actually involved in himself?

[JediGirl16]

Here's an EU tidbit. According to the "Empire" comic...

Vader's near defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan prompted him to relearn the art of saber dueling. His aggressive style hadn't been able to pierce Kenobi's defense, and he knew he had to train. He trained with Royal Guards, swordsmen, and droids. At the time of Empire Strikes Back, Vader was the greatest duelist the galaxy had ever seen.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Obi-Stu@Mar 5 2003, 12:07 AM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Well, the purge didn't actually end until close to ANH according to the EU.

How much of the purge was Vader actually involved in himself?

[/b][/quote]
I imagine he was a part of it from the beginning, and that he most likely killed the "last" Jedi himself.

[Obi-Stu]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Here's an EU tidbit. According to the "Empire" comic...

Vader's near defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan prompted him to relearn the art of saber dueling. His aggressive style hadn't been able to pierce Kenobi's defense, and he knew he had to train. He trained with Royal Guards, swordsmen, and droids. At the time of Empire Strikes Back, Vader was the greatest duelist the galaxy had ever seen.[/b][/quote]

Well that settles that argument.

So, was Luke better?

[Darth Vegas]

Nope.

"That is why you couldn't bring yourself to deystroy me before, that is why you won't bring me before your Emporer now."

Vader was conflicted, feelings and memories were beginning to resurface, Anakin was starting to return from the gave, hence "Return of the Jedi".

It was Luke's rage that caused him to overcome Vader, not the fact that he was a better swordsman, because he wasn't, he never had proper training, Anakin Skywalker did.

[Obi-Stu]

I think you've made a good point Bond, Luke had very little traing with the lightsaber. He had a few drills with Obi-Wan and the duel with Vader in ESB.

Vader was the better swordsman. Remember the Emperor's words:

"Your hate has made you powerful."

It's all to do with the Force.

[StarWarsFan1]

Originally posted by Plo Koon@Mar 4 2003, 05:11 PM
Luke beat Vader twice out of three duels. He's better.
What are you talkin about there is only two?

[JediGirl16]

Splinter of the Mind's Eye, an EU novel written in 1978.

[Master_MJade]

personally i think Luke is. you figure he was able to keep up with vader in ESB (untill vader started throwing things at him) and in RotJ he was able to be even better able to keep vader at bay. and that's with out proper training.


altho, Vader was pretty good for a guy in a suit...

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Obi-Stu@Mar 5 2003, 02:18 AM
I think you've made a good point Bond, Luke had very little traing with the lightsaber. He had a few drills with Obi-Wan and the duel with Vader in ESB.

Vader was the better swordsman. Remember the Emperor's words:

"Your hate has made you powerful."

It's all to do with the Force.
That says it all.

A person without actual sword training, can't possibly be a better swordsman.

And Luke wasn't keeping up with Vader hardly at all in ESB (Vader snuck up on him once, lots of objects flying through the air hit him knocked him out the window...), and he hid from him like a little girl in ROTJ.

[Soontir Solo]

I think both of them really SUCKED! After watchign Episode 1 and 2 the lightsaber skills of Luke and Vader are rudimentary. Darth Maul has by far the best skills in my oppinion. Yoda was better than him, but Maul had more potential, plus the double sided lightsaber was awesome. Vader was probably better overall, but Luke had pretty good skills all things considered.

[Darth Vegas]

Yeah but Maul's not the one that led the Imperial Army against thousands of Jedi is he? No that would be Vader, who probably kills hundreds of them himself.

[Darth Light]

For a Padawan with a few years skill to fight and guard himself against a Sith Lord known for killing the best of masters, Luke deserves the credit of being the better duelist overall. In a few short years btwn ANH and ROTJ Luke has shown that he is very powerful, perhaps more than his father. This is from one of the latest Insider, a little EU, but it says that Luke learns instantly in battle when fighting Vader. He drops from the flipping style of Yoda to the powerful style of Vader. Eventually overpowering him and cutting off his mechanical hand.

[JediGirl16]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 6 2003, 10:19 AM
I think both of them really SUCKED! After watchign Episode 1 and 2 the lightsaber skills of Luke and Vader are rudimentary. Darth Maul has by far the best skills in my oppinion. Yoda was better than him, but Maul had more potential, plus the double sided lightsaber was awesome. Vader was probably better overall, but Luke had pretty good skills all things considered.
Darth Maul is pathetic. He would concentrate on spinning and flipping around, while Vader would find an opening and nail him.

He has a rather loose grip, and Vader would just overpower him.


I trust you’ve never seen a samurai, have you? Well, Vader’s fighting style in the OT is based off Kendo—a samurai fighting style. It emphasizes minimal movement and defeat of the enemy by intelligent and precise strokes.

Darth Maul is sloppy. He can make a light show, but he certainly can’t defeat an enemy by flipping a saber around.

Ah, and if you want food for thought: Star Wars Tales #1 featured an Infinities comic where Vader dueled Maul. It’s not canon, since it’s infinities, but it was created for the purpose of showing who was superior. Lord Vader handily defeated Maul.

[Obi-Stu]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007@Mar 6 2003, 07:22 PM
...and he hid from him like a little girl in ROTJ.
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by JediGirl16@Mar 6 2003, 10:38 PM
Darth Maul is sloppy. He can make a light show, but he certainly can’t defeat an enemy by flipping a saber around.


Don't judge so quickly.

Darth Maul killed Qui-Gon Jinn, who according to some sources, was almost as good a swordsman as his former master, Dooku,who is considered the great lightsaber duelist in the Galaxy

Maul would've have succeded in defeateing Obi-Wan as well, but the will of the Force took preeminense. Obi-Wan meditated, and as Luke's Dark Side rage allowed him to defeat Vader, Obi-Wan's meditation allowed him to defeat Maul.

The will of the Force obviously was working right in the midst, if both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had been killed, then Anakin would never have been trained, and on and on and on, Sidious would've reigned supreme.

[Obi-Stu]

When did Obi-Wan meditate? I only remember Qui-Gon meditating (for all the good it did).

[Darth Vegas]

Before Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul, you can clearly tell he's drawing on the Force, he senses Qui-Gon's lightsaber nearby, closes his eyes before jumping out of the pit, all the time as the lightsaber is drawing near to him without him even looking at it.

[Obi-Stu]

Yes, you are quite right. Sorry

[Darth Vegas]

Oh no problem man. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[JediGirl16]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Mar 7 2003, 04:13 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Mar 7 2003, 04:13 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-JediGirl16@Mar 6 2003, 10:38 PM
Darth Maul is sloppy. He can make a light show, but he certainly can’t defeat an enemy by flipping a saber around.


Don't judge so quickly.

Darth Maul killed Qui-Gon Jinn, who according to some sources, was almost as good a swordsman as his former master, Dooku,who is considered the great lightsaber duelist in the Galaxy
[/b][/quote]
Some sources? None of these are official, I'm sure.

By all indications, Qui-Gon was a master out of his prime. He employed the Form IV of lightsaber techiques, while Dooku employed Form II. There is no possible comparison between the two.

[Erick Landrider]

In my opinion every thing breaks down like this

Maul beat Quigon
Obi Wan beat Maul
Vader beat Obi Wan (I won't factor in Dooku)
Luke beat Vader (and every one since)


Luke did give in to his hate to beat Vader

This probably aided his saber skills

Since then Luke's skill have increased greatly making him, in my mind, the best swords man in the galaxy

As for Maul, he ran quickly and ferociously at the outset

He went beserk on Qui Gon and Obi Wan one-on-one

When Obi Wan was hanging over the melting pit he felt satified and probably a little happy, thus lowering his hate and his connection with the Dark Side

Ben vs. Vader still remains in mystery, but I think Ben also knew that he didn't have a chance

He kept some hope until he realized that keeping the fight going would only cause Luke and the other to get killed

So he submitted

[JediGirl16]

How exactly does blind anger make one a better fighter?

How does completely missing your enemy twice and swinging like a drunken baseball player make you a good swordsman?

Luke was pathetic when he gave in to the darkside. With giant swings like that, Vader could either backpedal or find a hole and kill Luke.

There was only one option for him. He threw the match.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by JediGirl16@Mar 7 2003, 09:31 PM
How exactly does blind anger make one a better fighter?


Right after Luke had done that.....

"Your hate has made your powerful, now fulfill your destiny, and take your father's place at my side."

[JediGirl16]

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007+Mar 7 2003, 09:46 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Agent Bond A.K.A. TK-007 @ Mar 7 2003, 09:46 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-JediGirl16@Mar 7 2003, 09:31 PM
How exactly does blind anger make one a better fighter?


Right after Luke had done that.....

"Your hate has made your powerful, now fulfill your destiny, and take your father's place at my side." [/b][/quote]
Again, you completely miss the point. Since when does power equate skill?

Can the heavy weight champion of the world outduel a fencing master? I think not.

[Darth Vegas]

Since when does power equate skill? No one is saying that, but it was Luke's "Dark Side Rage" that allowed him to overcome Vader, the Emporer said as much. I however do not think it was only that, Vader was definately going easy on him.

[Darth Coil]

Going easy because he was fighting his son?

I do not believe he was going easy on Luke. Luke became at that point the best fighter you could find. Not the most powerfull or the smartest but simply the best.

[Darth Vegas]

Uh no, because as demonstrated but one man could kill the Emporer, Anakin Skywalker, and he did.

[Soontir Solo]

I haven't posted in this for a while, but Jedigirl16 come on. Darth Maul would wipe the floor with Vader. Vader was slow and Darth Maul was very fast. Maul had the double sided lightsaber. Maul killed Qui-Gon easily and would have killed Obi-Wan if he didn't get arrogant at the end.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 8 2003, 08:12 AM
Darth Maul would wipe the floor with Vader. Vader was slow and Darth Maul was very fast. Maul had the double sided lightsaber.
Maul got killed by a padawan learner, Vader/Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Force user the Galaxy has ever known.

Vader would cut off Mual's head and use the horns for a key rack.

[JediGirl16]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 8 2003, 08:12 AM
I haven't posted in this for a while, but Jedigirl16 come on. Darth Maul would wipe the floor with Vader. Vader was slow and Darth Maul was very fast. Maul had the double sided lightsaber. Maul killed Qui-Gon easily and would have killed Obi-Wan if he didn't get arrogant at the end.
Slow? Yes, because he was fighting someone who couldn't catch up.

Vader only shows his mastery of the saber once. This is in ESB when Luke hits Vader. It takes him all but two seconds to disarm Luke. A quick twist and twist of the blade, and Vader wins.

Maul is fast, but he has holes all over the place. He couldn't defend against an expert. Look at ANH. You'd consider that terrible fighting, right? WRONG. That's how masters truly fight. In real life, if you've ever seen samurai duel--they seldom move flips and flashy movements. It's foolish.

That Infinities comic was created specifically to address Vader's superiority over Maul.

[bodhisattva yoda]

Originally posted by JediGirl16@Mar 8 2003, 07:59 PM
Maul is fast, but he has holes all over the place. He couldn't defend against an expert. Look at ANH. You'd consider that terrible fighting, right? WRONG. That's how masters truly fight. In real life, if you've ever seen samurai duel--they seldom move flips and flashy movements. It's foolish.

agreed.

[Soontir Solo]

"He couldn't defend against an expert" What about Qui-Gon Jinn? He was one of the best Jedi Masters at the times. He was an expert adn Maul defeated him easily. And Bond, yes he was defeated by a Padawan, but come on. We all know that was the worst way to kill him and that GL made it completely unrealistic. Maul got cocky and then GL was an idiot and had Maul just stand there while Obi-Wan flips over him and cuts him in half. Maul just stood there for a few seconds and watched. That was the worst possible end to the fight. That is just one of GL's many mistakes in Episode 1. You can tell that the lightsaber fights with Obi-Wan and Anakin vs. Dooku were done just as bad. Obi-Wan fought crappy because GL doesn't know how to make a good fight. Anakin fought better but he still stuck his arm out and allowed Dooku to cut it off without trying to block or anything. Watch that fight particluary. You can tell it was poorly done and Anakin simply stuck his arm out for it to be cut off.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 9 2003, 12:32 AM
We all know that was the worst way to kill him and that GL made it completely unrealistic.
No he just showed how unsuperior Maul really is.

[Soontir Solo]

He didn't show how unsuperior Maul was. He showed how bad of a ending he could think up. Maul was way more superior to Obi-Wan. GL made Maul too good, and Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon not good enough in TPM. He should have made it more of an even match. Maul controlled the fight.

[Darth Vegas]

Yeah Maul controlled the fight, and in the end, the will of Force took pre-dominance, Maul lost because Obi-Wan meditated on the Force, and was totally consumed by it to the point that he defeated Maul at that very instant.

The Sith continuously have problems underestimating their opponents, that was the case here.

[Darth Vegas]

And dude, to cut it off right here, this is the classic trilogy section, the discussion about Darth Maul is already being continued in the Non-spoiler section.

So to get back on the topic at hand, Vader was the better duelist, Vader had actual experience dueling, Luke never had proper training, he won because the Force was with him.

[Soontir Solo]

I honestly really don't care who was the better duelist. It really doesn't matter at all. Luke beat him, thats that. I have my suspicions that Vader let him, but even that really doesn't matter.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 9 2003, 09:56 AM
I honestly really don't care who was the better duelist. It really doesn't matter at all.
Well in the same light, Star Wars doesn't matter at all, but when discussing Star Wars this is just as important as anything else.

Who was the better duelist, who was more powerful? Very important questions.

[Soontir Solo]

It doesn't really matter because the outcome has been decided. Luke beat Vader. Thats it. He could have killed him, but didn't. I think as far as raw power is conerned they were probably equal anyways.

[JediGirl16]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 9 2003, 11:47 AM
It doesn't really matter because the outcome has been decided. Luke beat Vader. Thats it. He could have killed him, but didn't. I think as far as raw power is conerned they were probably equal anyways.
So then why are you in the CT boards anyway?

Why do you even bother with Ep. III? The outcome has been decided, right?

[Soontir Solo]

The outcome has been decided, but we don't know exactly how they will get to that outcome. Im in the CT Board to make my oppinion known, that should be obvious. The point I was making is that it doesn't matter who was the better duelist because Luke defeated him in ROTJ. That proves that Luke was better, at least then.

[Darth Vegas]

But again as we've already said, Luke couldn't have been a better duelist because he didn't have any training, and watching the films you can see he doesn't have any real skills with a lightsaber.

It was his moment of rage that allowed him to overcome Vadeer, the Emporer himself said so in the film. And Luke didn't kill Vader either, he only helped to bring back the good man Anakin.

[Soontir Solo]

But the fact remains that he beat Vader. He defeated him, which isn't the same thing as killing him. We all know about the rage in Luke at the time but he still beat Vader. Vader had the same rage within him, he was just controlling his emotions. You cant use rage as an excuse.

[Darth Vegas]

"Your hate has made you powerful, now fullfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side."

For the last time, a person with little to no lightsaber training CANNOT have more skill with a lightsaber then someone who has been properly trained.

[Soontir Solo]

He obviously CAN Bond if he defeated Vader. Just because the hate in him fueled his fight doesn't mean that that is the reason he beat Vader. Even before Vader mentioned his sister he was holding his own against Vader just fine. Im not saying Luke was a better duelist, but he couldn't have been worse if he defeated Vader so soundly. You cant use the Dark Side as an excuse, Vader had the Dark Side with him too.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 10 2003, 09:24 AM
He obviously CAN Bond if he defeated Vader.
You don't get the point man, a student cannot be better then a Master, he defeated him but not because he was more skillful, it's all about the Force, Luke bursted out in total hatred of Vader, his hate gave him more power, the quick and easy path, as Yoda put's it.

And Vader still had good left in him, that's why he couldn't bring himself to kill his own son, that's the only reason Luke survived.

[Soontir Solo]

But Luke still had good in him that whole time too. You cant say Vader lost because he still had good in him when Luke still had good inside as well. And Luke wasn't a student anymore, Vader himself said Luke's skills were complete. Luke's hate gave him power yes, but not anymore power that the light side of the force could have given him as well.

And please don't turn this into a Dark vs. Light debate.

Is it just me or does it seem that we don't agree on hardly anything Bond?

[echoseven]

I agree with Bond, You can tell in the Movie that Vader is torn over Luke. (remember the scene where Vader has Luke's lightsaber when Luke turns himself in, when Luke is taken away, you can see Vader in turmoil) The Good is creeping back into Vader. He was obviously weaker then he had been because of that. Luke obviously gave in to the dark side in order to overcome Vader, but he caught himself before finishing the job.

[bodhisattva yoda]

yeah. yeah. there's no way to tell who was the better duelist in both empire and jedi as there were emotional conflicts present. it wasn't vader's intention to kill luke in empire, and it wasn't luke's intention to kill vader in jedi. and in jedi, vader's head was in the clouds.

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by bodhisattva yoda@Mar 10 2003, 01:27 PM
yeah. yeah. there's no way to tell who was the better duelist in both empire and jedi.
Yeah there is, that would be the one that was actually trained in the Jedi Temple and later killed lots and lots of Jedi in the Jedi Purge.

The question is not who was more pwoerful, but who was a better swordsman.

[JediGirl16]

Originally posted by Soontir Solo@Mar 10 2003, 09:57 AM
But Luke still had good in him that whole time too. You cant say Vader lost because he still had good in him when Luke still had good inside as well. And Luke wasn't a student anymore, Vader himself said Luke's skills were complete. Luke's hate gave him power yes, but not anymore power that the light side of the force could have given him as well.

And please don't turn this into a Dark vs. Light debate.

Is it just me or does it seem that we don't agree on hardly anything Bond?
His skills were complete in the sense that he built a lightsaber. Vader couldn't comment on his new fighting skills because he hadn't seen them.

Also, defeating someone does not make you more skilled. If I accidentely tripped and killed a Navy SEAL, am I a more skilled fighter than he?

[Erick Landrider]

I'll try to stay out of the dark vs light issue

Look won because he gave into the dark side which is ultimately more powerful (Lucas says so himself)

As for the whole accidential question, if you watch the scene one time with this quesition in your mind, it becomes quickly apperent that Lukes victory was no accident

[Master_MJade]

true, in power Vader was better, untill Luke tapped into the Dark side,


but in skill I think Luke was better

[Darth Vegas]

Originally posted by Master_MJade@Mar 12 2003, 09:36 AM

but in skill I think Luke was better
For the last time, Vader had faced off against hundreds of Jedi, he was trained in the Jedi Arts, he was a true duelist, Luke had very minimal training. As Luke had almsot zero lightsaber training, it's impossible for him to be more skillful, and if you would just watch the movie, you would see that he is not.

:whatsthat:

The answer is right in the movie, Luke's hate had made him powerful, if he hadn't gave into to it, he would never have overcome Vader.

[Erick Landrider]

Right on, Mr. Bond

[Ewok Hater]

Just my opinion but Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader for all his bragging about his saber skills & the prophecy of being the "Chosen One", is not really that good with a lightsaber based on what we've seen in the movies.

Episode I: Never uses one, though we see children about his age using them in Episode II. Since Jedi are usually spotted & trained from their birth, Anakin was already behind an average Jedi in terms of lightsaber training. But then again, he's the "Chosen One" and should catch up really quick by Episode II right???

Episode II: He loses his grip on his lightsaber in the struggle with Zam during the chase through Coruscant. If Obi Wan wasn't trailing behind them, Anakin's saber would've been lost.

During the fight with the Genosians, he once again loses control of his saber & it gets smashed up in the machinery.

In Anakin's fight with Dooku, yes he's fighting the Count with 2 lightsabers but he quickly loses one and then almost as fast, loses the other...along with his arm. Yes Dooku is a Sith Lord but he's also about 80 in the film based on how old he looks & considering he trained Qui Gon who was about 50 in Episode I. Plus he fought Obi Wan for a good couple of minutes too. Yoda held his own & then some against Dooku. How come Anakin, who was supposedly the Chosen One & who would've surpassed Yoda's skills by now if he practiced his lightsaber as much as he practiced his wit, couldn't?

OK, so Ani's 0 for 1 in lightsaber fights but Episode III will show how he unleashes his power right???

Episode III: We know Anakin will fight Obi Wan near the end of the movie. We also know Anakin will fall into a volcano/pit of molten lava/metal & become disfigured. This means Obi Wan defeats him. I seriously doubt Obi Wan will win by accident or a fluke. That would negate Vader's line in Episode IV of "When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the Master." Vader is admitting Obi Wan defeated him the last time they met but now HE will defeat Kenobi. If Anakin lost by a cheap, lucky shot, Vader would have said something more like, "You will not be so lucky this time." And of course, once again, Anakin will lose his saber in the fight because Obi Wan ends up giving that saber to Luke in Episode IV.

So now Anakin/Vader is 0 for 2. Well, at least we know that'll change in the next few Episodes. But let's look at THAT more closely.

Episode IV: Vader finally strikes down Kenobi in the rematch from Episode III. However, Obi Wan is not the 30-40 something master he was when they last met. He's around 60 something who's "powers are weak, old man." However, does Darth really win? No. "You can't win Darth.", Obi Wan said. "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possible imagine." So in a sense, Obi Wan is LETTING Darth win. Yes he could put up a fight but he KNOWS that by sacrificing himself, he can help Luke later in the movie, (Use the Force!), and in the sequels. Besides, if by chance Obi Wan DOES somehow strike down Vader, he'll get blown to bits by the 15 stormtroopers surrounding them before the blade finishes cutting into Vader's black armor. No Jedi mind trick's gonna work that fast on that many troopers.

So let's give Vader that one since he DOES manage to defeat an opponent finally, even though it's a 60ish old weak man who's not even defending himself at the time & admitted during the fight that he's sacrificing himself for a greater good. Darth's 1 for 2 now though the 1 has a Roger Maris like asterisk.

Episode V: OK, younger stronger opponent than Obi Wan and one that VADER seems to be letting up on. Remember he doesn't want to kill Luke, he wants to defeat him enough to lure him into the dark side so he can defeat the Emperor & rule the galaxy as father & son. But let's look more closely at Luke. He's a 20 year old kid with about 6-9 months of legitimate Jedi training. The Padawans in Episode II had more saber training! We never see Luke using a lightsaber during his Dagobah training. In fact, the only time we DO see him using one on the planet, it turned out to be a failure in that cave & taught him a lesson, one he really didn't get until it was almost too late, (you'll become like Vader.) We really don't know how good Luke is using one. The only times before the Vader fight were the 5 minute lessons on the Falcon, in the cave with the Wampaa & to open a hatch in an At-At to throw a bomb in there.

(Before anyone says anything, I KNOW there's a LOT in the Expanded Universe, comics, magazines, etc. on how Vader, Obi Wan & Luke are experts using lightsabers. Fine. I'm only commenting on what we have seen in the movies though.)

So now Vader has evened his record to 2-2, though his second victory was against an inexperienced 20 year old boy with roughly 9 months to a year of using a lightsaber with pretty much nobody to train him, (Obi Wan dies shortly after that "1st step to a greater power" in the Falcon & Yoda has only trained him for a short while. Vader meanwhile has been a lightsaber wielder for many years and SHOULD have defeated someone like that easily. This was like the Yankees playing the Tampa Bay Devil Rays in Yankee Stadium).

Episode VI: Luke comes back within, say 1 year & thoroughly defeats Vader. NO CONTEST. From that opening kick sending Vader down those steps to that rage against the machine in the end when Luke cuts off Vader's hand in payback. Could Luke have gotten that good that fast? Possibly, but more likely, Vader got worse. He's seen as the weaker subservant to the Emperor throughout the movie & ends up looking, (literally), like an old man at the end. Yes he throws the Emperor down the reactor with one hand & restores balance, fulfills the prophecy, etc. but we're talking lightsaber skills here. Vader gets beat here. Badly. Luke ends up holding back during the fight, trying to convert his father, yet he still manages to thrash him.

So Vader's record in lightsaber fights is 2-3, with both of those wins against far weaker opponents, one of whom pretty much forfeits the fight as a ruse to save Luke & the others from being stuck in the Death Star. This coming from supposedly the greatest Jedi of all. Just my opinion.

[Mark Skywalker]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Who's The Better Duelist? Luke Or Vader?[/b][/quote]

ROTJ Luke Skywalker is better. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

[Ko-Enshaku]

Darth Vader is better by far. It is by circumstance that either 1) He couldn't bare to destroy his son. OR 2) He had gone too far out of practice and had become inneffective as a duelist by ROTJ.

Either way, overall, Darth Vader was a superior duelist. If Luke had been the one to go on that Jedi purge, it would have been stopped really REALLY quickly. The first padawan he goes up to, flailing his saber wildly like he did with Vader in ROTJ, he would get his head lopped off in about 1 second.

That is a fact. Thats all there is to it.

[lordmakalpine]

Vader in his prime (aka "Vanakin") could pawn Luke easily. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif Pawnage, I tell you! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif

[borgmatrix]

Originally posted by Ewok Hater@Mar 13 2003, 03:02 AM
Episode II: He loses his grip on his lightsaber in the struggle with Zam during the chase through Coruscant. If Obi Wan wasn't trailing behind them, Anakin's saber would've been lost.

During the fight with the Genosians, he once again loses control of his saber & it gets smashed up in the machinery.

Losing one's grip on his/her lightsaber says nothing about their skill with that weapon. Circumstances are going to play a large role. Both against Zam and within the machinery later, Anakin was in a dangerous/extreme situation. It's going to happen. Obi-wan, for instance, lost his during his fight with Jango.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>In Anakin's fight with Dooku, yes he's fighting the Count with 2 lightsabers but he quickly loses one and then almost as fast, loses the other...along with his arm. Yes Dooku is a Sith Lord but he's also about 80 in the film based on how old he looks & considering he trained Qui Gon who was about 50 in Episode I. Plus he fought Obi Wan for a good couple of minutes too. Yoda held his own & then some against Dooku. How come Anakin, who was supposedly the Chosen One & who would've surpassed Yoda's skills by now if he practiced his lightsaber as much as he practiced his wit, couldn't?[/b][/quote]
First, you're repeating "Chosen One" title repeatedly, but it has nothing to do with lightsaber skill, but rather with balancing the Force. In fact, he didn't even use his saber to kill the Emperor in ROTJ in order to accomplish that task and satisfy the prophecy of being the Chosen One.

As for Dooku, age has nothing to with it (clearly). Isn't he supposed to be one of the greatest lightsaber duelists alive? The guy's darn good and he proved.

And like you said, Anakin wasn't practicing enough. Naturally, then, he couldn't quite compete with brilliant swordsmen like Yoda and Dooku.

But despite that, Anakin proved he could handle a saber. Let's not forget that Obi-wan didn't last long, either. This is the Master who killed Maul and demonstrated great skill with a lightsaber during that battle. Yet, he was defeated quickly by Dooku. Very quickly. We know Obi-wan has skill. So does Anakin, who might have lasted longer than Obi-wan.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Episode III: We know Anakin will fight Obi Wan near the end of the movie. We also know Anakin will fall into a volcano/pit of molten lava/metal & become disfigured. This means Obi Wan defeats him. I seriously doubt Obi Wan will win by accident or a fluke. That would negate Vader's line in Episode IV of "When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the Master." Vader is admitting Obi Wan defeated him the last time they met but now HE will defeat Kenobi. If Anakin lost by a cheap, lucky shot, Vader would have said something more like, "You will not be so lucky this time." And of course, once again, Anakin will lose his saber in the fight because Obi Wan ends up giving that saber to Luke in Episode IV.
[/b][/quote]
Yeah, we know Anakin's going to lose in epIII. But I think we can safely say it's not going to be a quick, easy victory for Obi-wan. It'll likely be a long, brutal affair. And if so, both will have to show skill for that to be true. We're going to see in episode III that Anakin is quite skilled with a lightsaber.

Let's not speculate on the actual moment of his defeat itself, since we don't know exactly what's going to happen. Vader referring to himself as a being the "learner" then doesn't equate with having poor lightsaber skills or, necessarily, even losing a fight. As has been stated, one needn't be more skilled to win a fight. Circumstances can and will dictate. The fact is, Chosen One or not, Anakin is the "learner" in epIII compared to Obi-wan.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>So let's give Vader that one since he DOES manage to defeat an opponent finally, even though it's a 60ish old weak man who's not even defending himself at the time & admitted during the fight that he's sacrificing himself for a greater good. Darth's 1 for 2 now though the 1 has a Roger Maris like asterisk.[/b][/quote]
The ANH fight isn't even worth mentioning for assessing lightsaber skill. Both came across as weak in the poorly staged fight.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Episode V: OK, younger stronger opponent than Obi Wan and one that VADER seems to be letting up on. Remember he doesn't want to kill Luke, he wants to defeat him enough to lure him into the dark side so he can defeat the Emperor & rule the galaxy as father & son. But let's look more closely at Luke. He's a 20 year old kid with about 6-9 months of legitimate Jedi training. The Padawans in Episode II had more saber training! We never see Luke using a lightsaber during his Dagobah training. In fact, the only time we DO see him using one on the planet, it turned out to be a failure in that cave & taught him a lesson, one he really didn't get until it was almost too late, (you'll become like Vader.) We really don't know how good Luke is using one. The only times before the Vader fight were the 5 minute lessons on the Falcon, in the cave with the Wampaa & to open a hatch in an At-At to throw a bomb in there.[/b][/quote]
So, again, there's really no point in mentioning this fight. Vader's holding back and Luke doesn't offer much challenge.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Episode VI: Luke comes back within, say 1 year & thoroughly defeats Vader. NO CONTEST. From that opening kick sending Vader down those steps to that rage against the machine in the end when Luke cuts off Vader's hand in payback. Could Luke have gotten that good that fast? Possibly, but more likely, Vader got worse. He's seen as the weaker subservant to the Emperor throughout the movie & ends up looking, (literally), like an old man at the end. Yes he throws the Emperor down the reactor with one hand & restores balance, fulfills the prophecy, etc. but we're talking lightsaber skills here. Vader gets beat here. Badly. Luke ends up holding back during the fight, trying to convert his father, yet he still manages to thrash him.
[/b][/quote]
Like ESB, there wasn't true effort on Vader's part. Remember, he's not interested in killing Luke. He's simply there to engage Luke in order to help the Emperor unleash his rage. That's it. When Luke turns it up and drops Vader, he's fully enraged, while Vader still does not want to kill him. The only one who was truly fighting to win at that point was Luke.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>So Vader's record in lightsaber fights is 2-3, with both of those wins against far weaker opponents, one of whom pretty much forfeits the fight as a ruse to save Luke & the others from being stuck in the Death Star. This coming from supposedly the greatest Jedi of all. Just my opinion.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]
Anakin has for more skill and experience with a lightsaber. The question is, who is more skilled with the weapon, right? Anakin/Vader has for more experience both in terms of training and in terms of using it in battle (Clone Wars, duels against Sith Lords in epII and III).

All Luke's done we've seen in the OT. Those experiences just can't compare with Vader's. And the battles against Vader in ESB and ROTJ ultimately don't tell us much either, since Vader wasn't looking to destroy him like Maul, or Tyranus, or likely any other Sith Lord would have been.

It was Luke's rage in ROTJ (and Vader's unwillingness to fight hard) that allowed him to win, not superior skill.

[Mark Skywalker]

Originally posted by JediGirl16@Mar 2 2003, 07:55 PM
Has Luke surpassed his father?

<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


Totally,

[Soontir Solo]

Luke is better, he proved that in ROTJ.

[lilgrasshoppah]

sheesh...

How could a barely trained boy be better than the "Chosen One", with years of both light and darkside training? Lest we forget, Anakin was a lungless, maimed, wreck of a man! Basically, Anakin had one hand and his legs tied behind his back... and don't forget the fact he was a walking iron lung... aaaaannnnnd he wasn't exactly a spring chicken either!!!

Luke didn't beat Anakin because Luke was superior. He bested his father because he was healthier and younger at the time of their final battle.

[Raganork8]

i have to agree i don't think luke was better than his father but rather he had the urge to kill vader far more than his father had the urge to kill him, plus omg anakin's in the suit he's not very powerful i'm sure he was tired or something luje at how reckless luke was fighting....

[Mark Skywalker]

Due to the Fact That Vader is "More machine than Man." and is old, His powers aren't that strong. he isn't as good a Duelist as before. Luke on the other hand is "More Man than machine" and he is young and his powers are only begining to surface, In ROTJ Luke was much more powerful than Vader and was able to defeat him.

In EU Luke as a Jedi Master is more powerful than even his father when he was at his prime. So now Luke is byfar "Now" The Most Powerful Jedi Master & Duelist. before he was just learning, Now he is The MASTER. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif

[Ithorian guy]

Luke

[Raganork8]

vader.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

Vader. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/vader.gif

[bobby_lewis]

vader all the way....cause in esb he could have taken luke out easily...and in rotj he put his guard down cause luke brought out the light side in him...

[darth scourge]

Luke(with anger,fear and aggression).Come on if he didnt have a 1 minute session with the dark side he wouldnt have had the power to beat Vader to the ground when he feared that Vader was going to seduce Leia to the darkside.

[joesixtoe]

even luke said to vader " that you couldn't bring yourself to kill me before, and i dont think you can do it now" meaning he could have killed him before, and he could now,, this shows that vader is a powerful person... in rotj that final fight is more emotional conflict than a physical one. you have to remember that these fights were in the early 80's.. if done now, would have been totally diff.

[Darth Octavious]

Before the suit: Vader/Anakin
In the suit: Luke

[Findsman]

To borrow from Batman Begins: "Training is nothing! Will is everything!" I think in terms of skill, Vader was assuredly the more formidable duelist. But when faced with the prospect of losing his sister to the Sith, Luke's will to overcome Vader and protect Leia was much greater than Vader's desire to see Luke turned. Hence, Luke triumphed.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

Originally posted by Findsman@Jun 21 2005, 11:45 PM
To borrow from Batman Begins: "Training is nothing! Will is everything!" I think in terms of skill, Vader was assuredly the more formidable duelist. But when faced with the prospect of losing his sister to the Sith, Luke's will to overcome Vader and protect Leia was much greater than Vader's desire to see Luke turned. Hence, Luke triumphed.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>

"Training is nothing! Will is everything!"

I like that.

Vader is better though. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/vader.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

[The Arbiter]

Before his crippling Anakin was considered one of the best Jedi duelists in the Jedi Order. He does have talent on his side, but loses the faculty of movement after being put in a big dark suit.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

Originally posted by The Arbiter@Jun 22 2005, 02:52 AM
Before his crippling Anakin was considered one of the best Jedi duelists in the Jedi Order. He does have talent on his side, but loses the faculty of movement after being put in a big dark suit.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


True, but I still go with Vader.

If Luke fought Vader before the suit, who would win? Anakin was Vader before he had the suit. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/vader.gif

[thechosen1]

okay, now i've wondered this ever since the PT came out... in the PT, we see that Anakin loves to toy with things, right? So why didn't he mess with his suit and make upgrades and stuff... and if he has all this support stuff, how could he get tired saying it's not actually his real body doing the work (this is nit picky, but uh vader/anakin never put pain receptors in his hand so why did he scream when luke cut it off...)

also, vader was a much better duelist that much is obvious... i think that by that time vader's love for his son had kept him from unleashing on luke's sorry @**... Vader was the chosen one, there is no way that Luke was stronger...

[thechosen1]

and if they would have fought before the suit, vader would have massacred luke

[James William Alexander Atreides]

Originally posted by thechosen1@Jun 23 2005, 10:07 AM
okay, now i've wondered this ever since the PT came out... in the PT, we see that Anakin loves to toy with things, right? So why didn't he mess with his suit and make upgrades and stuff... and if he has all this support stuff, how could he get tired saying it's not actually his real body doing the work (this is nit picky, but uh vader/anakin never put pain receptors in his hand so why did he scream when luke cut it off...)

also, vader was a much better duelist that much is obvious... i think that by that time vader's love for his son had kept him from unleashing on luke's sorry @**... Vader was the chosen one, there is no way that Luke was stronger...
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



Originally posted by thechosen1@Jun 23 2005, 10:08 AM
and if they would have fought before the suit, vader would have massacred luke
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


I think the Emperor limited any upgrades to the suit. He wanted to maintain total control, not create a uncontrolled SuperGrevious.

And Anakin would crush Luke. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif

[The Arbiter]

That much is evident. What about Obi-Wan? He did defeat Anakin in ROTS, and allowed himself to die in ANH.

[Lord Light]

Vader by far but Luck ultimately in the EU. Plus Vader was really old in ROTJ could the dark side keep him going with all the problems vader had with being part machine part flesh? I would think that his age would eventually take its toll on him. Maybe that is why the emprior wanted luke even more?? thoughts???

[Lord Ani]

Definitely Vader. In ESB, Vader had Luke down and could have killed him if he wanted to.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Vader by far but Luck ultimately in the EU. Plus Vader was really old in ROTJ could the dark side keep him going with all the problems vader had with being part machine part flesh? I would think that his age would eventually take its toll on him. Maybe that is why the emprior wanted luke even more?? thoughts??? [/b][/quote]
I'm not sure about this. Sure, Vader was old, but I don't think he was too far past his prime. I still think he was better than Luke. The reason the Emperor was desperate to turn Luke to the dark side was that he thought Luke was the last Jedi (he didn't know about Leia's force capabilities) and knew that if he didn't turn Luke soon, he would never get another apprentice after Vader died.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

I don't know. Palpatine would have found someone. Maybe Mara Jade?

[thechosen1]

PLEASE NO MORE style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif EU REFERENCES.... THIS IS UNDER THE MOVIES STAR WARS DISCUSSIONS... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif

[clarkson88]

Luke was a better duelist than Vader, but he only beat him from his fear of Vader turning Leia to the darkside. If Vader was not half robot, I think he would have been a very powerful Sith and that is why, when Palps sees fresh meat, decides to try and turn Luke, whose joints would act quicker than mechanised limbs.

[JMAS]

If Vader was still whole and not "more machine than man" then Luke wouldn't have stood a chance against him.

Yes, Vader whoops his arse in TESB, but he had formal training in lightsaber combat and years of practice, where as Luke had virtually none in comparison.

By the time of ROTJ, Luke had learned a great deal more, he had found Jedi training material in Ben's home on Tatooine, which is how he learned to construct his own lightsaber. And I'm sure there was some material on the various lightsaber forms also. So I think at the time of the DS2 duel, Luke is the better duelist. He is in his prime physically, whereas Vader is old, not as agile/flexible as he was pre-suit and he really hasn't had any cause to practice with his lightsaber for at least a decade, up until Ben showed up on the first Death Star. So yeah, by the time of ROTJ, I think Luke was the better fighter/duelist.

[clarkson88]

^ style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ok.gif Yup.

[thechosen1]

I think Vader was holding back because he didn't want to kill his son...

I think he was just too scared of the Emperor in order to outright hold back... think about it, Vader was almost a different person when he was alone with Luke and then when he was in the presence of the Emperor...bam, the bad @%& Vader is back.

Also, I think while Anakin was making a come back he was still afraid of losing his power. So he was using Leia as a final attempt to make Luke succumb to the Dark Side so that they together could kill the Emperor and he would have his apprentice, his very own son. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/vader.gif

[clarkson88]

Vader wasn't holdiong back, he attempted to kill Luke on lots of occasions. It was only when he saw Luke getting destroyed by Palps lightning that the turmoil between light and dark was brought to the surface. Light won and he killed the Emperor.

[thechosen1]

So then how do you explain the different personas when around/not with the emperor?

[James William Alexander Atreides]

I still think Vader was holding back. Remember Vader thought that Luke could destroy the Emperor and then he and Luke could rule the Empire together.

From the script:

INTERIOR: GANTRY -- OUTSIDE CONTROL ROOM -- REACTOR SHAFT

Luke moves along the railing and up to the control room.
Vader lunges at him and Luke immediately raises his lit sword
to meet Vader's. Sparks fly as they duel, Vader gradually
forcing Luke backward toward the gantry.

VADER: You are beaten. It is useless to resist. Don't let yourself be
destroyed as Obi-Wan did.

Luke answers by rolling sideways and thrusting his sword at
Vader so viciously that he nicks Vader on the shoulder. The
black armor sparks and smokes and Vader seems to be hurt, but
immediately recovers.
Luke backs off along the narrow end of the gantry as Vader
comes at him, slashing at the young Jedi with his sword. Luke
makes a quick move around the instrument complex attached to
the end of the gantry. Vader's sword comes slashing down,
cutting the complex loose; it begins to fall, then is caught
by the rising wind and blown upward.
Luke glances at the instrument complex floating away. At
that instant, Vader's sword comes down across Luke's right
forearm, cutting off his hand and sending his sword flying.
In great pain, Luke squeezes his forearm under his left armpit
and moves back along the gantry to its extreme end. Vader
follows. The wind subsides. Luke holds on. There is nowhere
else to go.

VADER: There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. You do not yet
realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power.
Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength,
we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.

LUKE: I'll never join you!

VADER: If you only knew the power of the dark side. Obi-Wan never told
you what happened to your father.

LUKE: He told me enough! He told me you killed him.

VADER: No. I am your father.

Shocked, Luke looks at Vader in utter disbelief.

LUKE: No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!

VADER: Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

LUKE: No! No! No!

VADER: Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is
your destiny. Join me, and we can rule the galaxy as father and son.
Come with me. It's the only way.

[clarkson88]

Remeber, Luke had just started proper training with Yoda so was an inexperienced Jedi. Vader was using that as a seduction to the Darkside IMO, much like in AOTC DOOKU: 'Together Obi-Wan we can destroy the Sith'.
Vader had no intentions at that point to turn on Palpatine. He had just recently realised his son was alive, he was ready to say anything to get his son. By ROTJ Luke had trained more with Yoda and had learnt more of the Force at Ben's hut.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

True, but who's to say that like Dooku, Vader wasn't ambitious enough to bump off Palpatine and take over the Empire? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bow.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/vader.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bow.gif

[clarkson88]

Well i don't think Vader would want to kill the Emperor. What would he gain? The title of Sith Master. I don't think he would want to kill him unless he had an incentive, i.e. saving Luke did the trick.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

What about gaining the title of Emperor? The Emperor had no heirs. Who would contest it?

[clarkson88]

an adoptive heir like Sate Pestage.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

Who is that?

[clarkson88]

In ROTJ the dodgy one always talking with Palpatine in the Death Star

[James William Alexander Atreides]

"Sate Pestage is a fictional character from the Star Wars universe.

Pestage was a long-time advisor of Palpatine and one of the few people who truly knew him. When Palpatine became Emperor, Pestage was appointed his Grand Vizier. His daily tasks ranged from managing Palpatine's schedule to tasting his food to see if it was poisoned. Sate Pestage was also a member of Emperor Palpatine's Inner Circle. The other members of the Inner Circle were Janus Greejatus, Sim Aloo, Ars Dangor and Kren Blista-Vanee. He was so influential, and trusted, that by the Battle of Hoth Pestage was doing the day to day business of the government. The only two people more powerful in the Imperial hierarchy were the Emperor and Darth Vader. After Palpatine was killed at the Battle of Endor, he assumed control of Imperial Centre until Ysanne Isard betrayed him by revealing Pestage would allow Coruscant to be captured by the New Republic in return for immunity. His credibility gone, he fled to his private holdings, the Cuitric Hegemony. Isard sent Admiral Delak Krennel to arrest him; Krennel killed Pestage, sized the hegemony, and declared himself a warlord.

But his death is uncertain. He appeared to die of a broken neck, but he was later seen with the reborn Emperor Palpatine, possibly as a clone. Pestage most likely died when the Galaxy Gun destroyed the planet Byss."

I can't really see him as Palpatine's heir. What about Ederlaath Pallopides or Voplau?

[clarkson88]

I don't think his relatices would have survived. A lot of people abhorred Palpatine and without forcepowers they would be easily assassinated. I think a strong leader would have taken over. Like Thrawn.

[Ant]

Originally posted by spaceman2386@Mar 3 2003, 04:49 PM
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif i think luke would win just because vaders suit would resrtic his movment.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>



I agree

[Lord_Reven]

What time period.

Luke from ANH
Luke from ESB
or
Luke from ROTJ

[leiaorgana]

Luke!

[Darth Octavious]

Like I said before, pre-suit: Vader, Luke couldn't touch his skills. When Daddy is in the suit, Luke wins.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

^I agree with this assessment.

Luke just has a better PR manager. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[The White Tuxedo]

Pre-suit Vader would wipe the floor the floor with Luke.

Vader was certainly better than Luke in TESB. Also, Luke wasn't ready emotionally for the battle. But they were pretty well matched in ROTJ. Esspecially when Luke got p****ed.

[James William Alexander Atreides]

^Also true. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif

[Darth Magnus]

I agree, Vaders skills post suit are way below Lukes

[James William Alexander Atreides]

Vader is also considerably older when he faces Luke and so maybe a little rusty.

[Darth Platis]

Vader because of expirience

[Darth Bomb?]

Originally posted by spaceman2386@Mar 3 2003, 10:49 AM
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif i think luke would win just because vaders suit would resrtic his movment.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>


totally agree. But Vader is more powerfull