Is Yoda really that impressive?

[UnOrthOdOx]

OK, I am new here, hi.

Did Yoda really 'win' the fight with Dooku? Or, was he 'winning'?

Now, I know the reaction is going to be "of course, Dooku ran away didn't he?"

While it is clear Dooku is running, is he truly running from Yoda? Or, perhaps is he more worried about escaping the massive army that is comming? Through all his spinning, jumping and whirling, Yoda does not seem to fluster Dooku in the least. In fact, it appears that Yoda is even a bit winded at the end, while Dooku is quite relaxed. He makes a diversion, and just escapes as Amidala arrives with some troopers to take a few pot shots at the escaping vessel.

[Senator Theant]

Hey hows it going . . .

It appeared to me while watchin the film that Yoda and Dooku reached a stalemate and Dooku did in fact realize that more troops were on the way. HOwever, as I read the comic book for Ep II it reads that Dooku fled once he realized that Yoda was much more powerful than he was. Comic book probably not the most reliable source but it did kinda seem that way in the film. Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in the universe and I can only imagine how powerful with a lightsaber he would be if he were twice the size he is now. Thats what I think.

[DanielSkywalker]

Yoda looked as though to me to be winning the dual just before Dooku pulled a fast one and gave him the choice to save his two Jedi commrades from being squashed flat or continue the dual which would have most likely ended with Dooku injured or dead. Yoda, of course, chose to save his two friends thus letting Dooku escape. Dooku will get his in EP III.

[Vibroblade]

I think that's a big definate that Yoda was winning. One of the wonderful things ILM accomplished with Yoda was the expressiveness of his face. The look he gives Dooku when he says "still much to learn have you" ( paraphrase I've only seen it four times;) and then at the end "fought well you have my old padawan " ( again maybe not exact ) tells volumes.

Anyway, there's a taunting aspect to both Yoda's words and expressions that gave me a clear picture that Dooku was really no threat to him.

That's my take anyway.

[Meche]

Yeah, he was winning. I miss the puppet Yoda but he had some good facial expressions at that part. He was winning and he knew it. Or maybe Dooku thought he'd probably win, but wasn't sure, what with the others on their way over. He had to live.

[Tovor]

Yoda looked as though to me to be winning the dual just before Dooku pulled a fast one and gave him the choice to save his two Jedi commrades from being squashed flat or continue the dual which would have most likely ended with Dooku injured or dead. *Yoda, of course, chose to save his two friends thus letting Dooku escape. *

Daniel Skywalker, you just gave me a thought. Actually I had this thought while watching AOTC the 2nd time, during the scene you described, but you mentioning it the way you did reminded me. *Capturing or killing Dooku was absolutely the most important thing for the Jedi to accomplish. As Yoda told Mace, if he got away he could rally more systems to his cause. *As Obi-Wan told Anakin, "If we catch him we can end this war right now!" *So capturing or killing Dooku was an absolute life or death, war or peace necessity. *But Yoda let Dooku escape, and why? Because of his love for Obi-Wan and Anakin. *He let Dooku escape in order to save the lives of those he cared for. *It was a failure he suggested could occur in the future when he read Anakin's fears in TPM for his mother. *That is exactly why Jedi cannot have emotional attatchments that can interfere with their tasks. *Yoda failed, because he put emotional attatchment (fear of losing loved ones) before his primary duty.

In Episode III I think Yoda will learn a harsh lesson about letting emotional baggage get in the way of fighting evil, when his concern over fallen comrades enabled the war to continue and grow. *In TESB, his words to Luke will bear far more significance to us.
"And sacrifice Han and Leia?"
"If you honor what they fight for, yes."

Yoda should have honored what the Jedi, Obi-Wan and Anakin, were fighting for, by sacrificing them under the pillar to ensure that Dooku not escape.

Perhaps the lesson here, in reply to the question "Is Yoda really that impressive?", is that Yoda failed because he should have sacrificed the two Jedi to end the Clone Wars at the beginning, but instead he let Dooku escape and wound up sacrificing a lot more people before the Clone Wars and the Jedi Purge finally ended. *When he urged Luke to sacrifice Han and Leia to continue his training, he was advising him from bitter experience. *He would not admit it, but he did not want Luke to make the same mistake he had made.

[kyris00]

humm intersting i never thought of it that way.

[Vyndim]

What Tovor posted actually makes sense, strangely enough. Why else would Yoda urge Luke to give up everyone for the greater good because Yoda remembers his mistake...Thats very creative to have thought of it like that. Perhapes Yoda isn't the all wise and perfect Jedi, apperently he also failed in his own way, very interesting and gives us a differently light on Master Yoda.

[looceefir]

Yoda's failure is there throughout Ep III if you look for it. He was unaware of a Jedi tampering with the archives; he didn't know about the clone army; he ignores the warning about evil in the Senate; he struggles to control the force before his duel with Dooku; the comment about the older a Jedi gets the more arrogant he becomes - did this refer to him and if he thinks he is exempt then that's even worse; the fact that the line of Jedi that is in this whole mess - Yoda > Dooku > Qui-Gon > Obi-Wan > Anakin - suggests something went wrong with Yoda.

Makes me think Palpatine and Yoda have got to have a confrontation at some point, to demonstrate Yoda's final fall?

[Luthien]

Originally posted by Tovor@May 25 2002 - 00:39
Yoda failed, because he put emotional attatchment (fear of losing loved ones) before his primary duty.

In Episode III I think Yoda will learn a harsh lesson about letting emotional baggage get in the way of fighting evil, when his concern over fallen comrades enabled the war to continue and grow. *In TESB, his words to Luke will bear far more significance to us.
"And sacrifice Han and Leia?"
"If you honor what they fight for, yes."

Yoda should have honored what the Jedi, Obi-Wan and Anakin, were fighting for, by sacrificing them under the pillar to ensure that Dooku not escape.

That is a very good point, actually, Tovor. Yoda is certainly impressive to me, but also, as you showed, fallible.

Somehow, that just shows me all the clearer why the Jedi went nearly extinct...because they let their love and their pride get in their way...*shudders* Even Yoda, who was considered one of the greatest Jedi, wasn't immune to their failings.

[Brian]

I believe it had nothing to do with Yoda's feelings for his fellow Jedi. I think it to be deeper than that.

Here is my theory--

Remember the prophacy of the "chosen one" to bring balance to the force? Yoda may have had this in mind when he decided to save Obi-Wan and Anakin.

He had two choices:

(1) POSSIBLY help to bring balance to the Force by saving the potential chosen one (Anikin) and his Master (Obi-Wan), thus unclouding his and other Jedi's minds b/c of the Darkside and later destroying the Sith.

or

(2) POSSIBLY end the Clone War by killing Dooku, but still not know the identity of the Dark Sith Lord. Also, many questions would still need to be answered.

He made a decison that he felt was more wise at the time. He put his trust in the "chosen one" to bring balance to the Force. The Force is Yoda's ally. The Clone War ended up being detrimental to the galaxy; however, if Yoda could have seen that balance was brought back to the Force (before Anikin was seduced), the Clone War could have been much easier to end. He chose to see if balance could be brought to the Force, thus strengthing his power (and other Jedi). Obviously his decison was a bad one, but b/c the future was clouded by the Darkside, he did not foresee this.

Bringing balance to the Force involves destroying the Sith (I think). Somehow, Yoda felt that keeping Anikin alive was more important than killing Dooku. I guess Yoda saw that killing Dooku was not going to destroy the Sith entirely. It would have been a temporary fix, but the core of the problem(s) would still be there (i.e. Sidious, whom I realize none of the Jedi know about, yet). Essentially, I am implying that Yoda does believe that Anikin is the "Chosen One" that is to bring balance to the Force. He says it outright in TPM ("the chosen one he may be, but I sense grave danger in his training" or something of the like.)

Conclusion: Bringing balance to the Force is more important than stopping a war that has just begun. However, Yoda may have made the wrong decision (not a poor decission)given that fact that we know what happens later in the OT. It was a tough decisson and he chose the one that seemed right at the time.

As always, there may be holes in my logic, but it makes sense to me. This was just another possible explaination (of probably many) that tells why Yoda didn't finish off Dooku, but opted to save Obi-Wan and Anikin.

[DanielSkywalker]

Yeah, I thought about that too, Tovor, but I don't know which viewpoint to take on that scene. True, it could be that Yoda let his love for Anakin and Obi-Wan get in the way of the mission, or perhaps, Yoda still believes the prophecy that Anankin is the chosen one, who will bring balance to the force. Thus, letting him die would cause a huge upheaval in the force. Who knows?

[DanielSkywalker]

Well, nevermind, O-B-GATES beat to to that point. :wink:.

[Brian]

Sorry Daniel. I didn't realize you were going to post about this too.

[DanielSkywalker]

No problem at all, Gates. You were more extensive in explaining this argument in your post anyway. it's good to know I'm not the only one with this idea.

[lmg1352001]

Question....RTOTJ the force is back in balance and the Jedi finally win...The end justifies the means

Does Yoda see something in the future and he needs Anakin alive? *Does he know that Anakin does go to the darkside but some how knows that he will finally vindicate himself.

I just finished reading the book by R.A.Sal based on the script by GL. *Yoda says the only way to see the darkside is by studying the darkside. *Thus he will meditate for a few days and tap into one of the sith holocrons in the library.

Sure the darkside clouds everything but he was able to see into the future about the battle between dooku and obi/anakin to save them.

Also yoda would have dispatched with dooku.
1. *He knocks dooku blade out the way in one scene..
2. *He jumps right pass dooku's head, dooku didnot see that coming(yoda could have taken his head off), dooku turns and try's to take a piece out of yoda misses, yoda backflips and attacks again.....
3. *By the way he stopped the electricity with his bare hand and shot it right back at dooku(yoda I believe understands a little of the dark side)

He teases dooku the whole fight

YODA WAS WINNING
Yoda I believe see's what's going on but has to follow it until the end....Yoda the great manipulator

[Darth Badly]

Originally posted by O-B-GATES@May 25 2002 - 14:38
I guess Yoda saw that killing Dooku was not going to destroy the Sith entirely. *It would have been a temporary fix, but the core of the problem(s) would still be there (i.e. Sidious, whom I realize none of the Jedi know about, yet). *
[QUOTE]

My take on the whole thing was that Yoda was a round or two ahead in the fight, and probably had an unused trick or two up his sleeve as well.

Although Obi Wan has that line about 'ending this war now' that's more to keep Anakin from jumping after Portman than anything else. It's rather simplistic of him to imagine that capturing Count Duckula would be the end of the entire civil war. In the scheme of things the audience knows it wouldn’t be the end – and that had they captured or killed Duckula it wouldn’t have helped much because the future emperor would still be there pulling the strings behind the scenes and simply slip someone else into the frame so do his dirty work. So from that point of view, I don’t think Yoda made a tragic mistake in saving his pals and chums. His mistake has been not to pay more attention to the powershift in the senate.

[WayoftheGungon]

I think all the ideas in this thread are very valid. I do have something to add however. Did you notice how Dooku talked a lot of crap during his fight with Obi Won to get him going, which you can see Obi Won getting angry. This is because he seems to know that he is more powerful then him. Then he fights Anakin and trash talks him, but not nearly enough. That fight lasts a bit longer too then the one Dooku had with Obi Won. Then of course Dooku fights Yoda and talks smack in the beginning but once the sabers are drawn Yoda is the one to tease Dooku. Seems to me that even Dooku knows Yoda is more powerful and does not bother to waste his time with words simply because he needs to focus more of his attention on fighting. When he relizes that Yoda is much too quick for him he creates a diversion.

[Tovor]

. *It's rather simplistic of him to imagine that capturing Count Duckula would be the end of the entire civil war. *In the scheme of things the audience knows it wouldn’t be the end – and that had they captured or killed Duckula it wouldn’t have helped much because the future emperor would still be there pulling the strings behind the scenes and simply slip someone else into the frame so do his dirty work. *So from that point of view, I don’t think Yoda made a tragic mistake in saving his pals and chums. *

It's not simplistic at all, because at that point nobody knows that Dooku is in league with Sideous. *They think that Dooku is the leader and chief architect of the Seperatist movement, just as Obi-Wan reported after spying on the Seperatist meeting. He reported that the Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, Techno Union, and all the other massive organs of commerce had pledged their loyalty and their armies to Count Dooku. So nobody had any reason as yet to not think that Count Dooku was the only one pulling the strings, nor to expect that if Dooku was dead there would be someone more powerful than him to continue controlling the Seperatists. *You mentioned the audience knowing that it wouldn't be the end of the war, because we already know that Sideous will put someone else in place to continue the war. *But the story is not about what we know but about what the Jedi know or do not know. *You say in the scheme of things the audience knows that it won't be the end, and I venture to say that your viewpoint, at least in the way you worded your message, is due to your dissatisfaction with AOTC and the lack of suspense or mystery the new trilogy is giving you. *Rather than getting into the movie without regard to movies you already saw a long time ago, set 22 years after the events of AOTC, you presume or accuse the fictional characters of being privy to the advance knowledge you have? *

Maybe, like that scene in Spaceballs when they were watching the Spaceballs video and fast forwarding to find out where the escaped heroes were hiding, you feel that Obi-Wan would have known catching Dooku wouldn't end the war since he had already seen the video? *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[Count Dooku]

You have a point my friend. Is Yoda really that impressive? Dooku and Yoda fight was tense, and very epic. I think Dooku thought twice if i'am correct didnt Dooku say "Now we will see who is the stronger Jedi" or something like that before their fight. They seemed very equal to the powers, but it had to come down to lightsabers. Yoda made a mistake by saving Obi/Ani. Now Dooku is on the run, and there is no way ending the wars for years. In E3 Yoda will realize his mistake.

[DanielSkywalker]

I don't know, Dooku. I think Yoda chose to save Anakin and Obi-Wan because he knows that Anakin will play a very important role in the balancing of the force. None of us know exactly how much Yoda knows. Perhaps he knows alot more than he is letting on and knows that there's nothing he can do to stop it.

[Polunis]

Why would Dooku really care to finish the fight in the first place...regardless of who has the advantage? He has work to do, and Death Star plans to deliver. Do you think he really cares to stick around and wait for more goons to arrive? He knows the Jedi are going to "get theirs" anyway; he could finish it another day...if it is the will of the Force. Do not underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Yoda was impressive, but Tyranus was even more so; after all, he was tired to begin with when he started to fight Yoda. At times, it can be pointless to constantly pick fights; surely Tyranus would know that.

I enjoyed his trash talk:)

[DanielSkywalker]

I'm sorry, Polunis, but Yoda was kicking Dooku's tale.

[lmg1352001]

Yeah enjoyed the trash talking especially the fact that Yoda was just playing around with Dooku....

Yoda was Winning.......

[Winston_Sith]

Originally posted by looceefir@May 25 2002 - 02:26
Makes me think Palpatine and Yoda have got to have a confrontation at some point, to demonstrate Yoda's final fall?
Well, I hope so.

But do you think Sidious will look as foolish and impotent as Tyranus did?

Sidious has to win, doesn't he, or why would Yoda and Ben have had to hide out for all those years?

If YODA (the awesome warrior we saw in AOTC) has to run away and hide for 20+ years, Sidious must be REALLY powerful, don't you think?

Here's a thought; after seeing the Yoda/Dooku duel in AOTC, I think the number two question on Luke's mind at the end of the saga, after "Ben, why didn't you tell me about my father?" should have been "Master Yoda, why didn't you tell me about force lightning?" :crazy:

[Senator Theant]

Interesting that you, Winston_Sith, consider that a battle between Yoda and Sidious is imminent. I dont think so.

And to Tovor's previously unheeded remarks . . . . brilliant. Shoulda answered a whole lot of questions in people's minds. But then again, people just dont listen. This world would be a much better place if people listened.

Yoda it seems has realized his flaw and is the not the perfect Jedi he his made out to be. However, as he serves as the personification of faith in the force, I do not think that Lucas will depict a battle between him and the essence of evil (Sidious). That honor should be saved for the final installment of the saga, ROTJ. However, I do believe that many Jedi will fall trying to kill Palpatine after they find out he is the Sith Master. I can picture Mace Windu leading many Jedi in the search for Palpatine, and their downfall to the Dark Lord and his contingent of Red Guards. Isnt it high time we saw those mysteriously cloaked figures in action? I believe so. Thats my opinion.

[lmg1352001]

How are we so sure that Yoda has realized his flaw...I don't think I ever thought he was a perfect Jedi. *But I do think he is definitely a Jedi Master and someone to be reckon with.

As we have seen in history...evil seems to always lurk in the background, it grows strong an when it has enough followers than it unleashes itself like a virus. *But in the end good always triumps.

Yoda is definitely is impressive but Sidious relies on his use of the dark side by manipulating the weak-minded.

If he was perfect than he would be a JEDi God and than there would have been only one movie.

Yoda is aware of what is happening in the galaxy, fully aware no. *But still he is aware of the evil beconing. *The wheels of the darkside are put in motion, he cannot stop that but it is apparent from the OT that he sets up a backup plan. *

But I have to admit that Royal Guards did have a cameo in AOTC...i think it would be interesting to see them in action.

Didn't mean to jump ahead to OT but my mind is clouded.
Must unlearn what I have learned...
Will meditate on this.....

[conron_montyn23]

the reason yoda was spinning so fast, is because he was using force speed, any jedi can do that.

despite all his rage yoda is still an unknown species in a cage. :roll: style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif

[Raganork8]

yoda was cool but i agree not perfect dooku was cooler considering the fact that he's human and single handedly defended himself against yoda obi wan and anakin