Lucas the Archivist: Historical Parallels in AOTC

[Teta]

Well, on to a topic that is close to my heart--Lucas as a pop culture Historian. We've seen the SW films contain a visual feast of refs to the history of cinema, and AOTC is no exception. But what of GL the actual historian> How much is AOTC and the Sga a parable for our times?

Gl loves the the study of Roman history. But personally, the way this is shaping up, now that we know the majority of the process by which the republic falls, I am thinking that it parallels not so much the fall of Rome but instead as a hideous inversion of the American Civil War, with the Battle of Geonosis as an intergalactic Fort Sumter. And Palpy, of course, serving not as an illustration of the wise law-giver Lincoln, who came to power at a time the American Republic was on the verge of crumbling and gave his life, literally, to protect it, but as the diabolical figure who began the breakup in the first place.

However, there are also the curious modern symbolism to today--Jar Jar tunring out to be an LBJ in Vietnam figure, and the Trade Federations' role in helping Palpy to power as being some kind of clandestine attack on globalization. Here are some questions to ponder:

1) Just how much of these historical symbolism were part of the origional story as concieved by GL in the early 70's? For exampkle, was Jar-Jar part of the story from the beginning, and his role assured, or whas that a specific reply to disgruntled fans? Likewise, the role of the Trade Federation--would that emphasis on economics have been there had present-day historical events not played out as they did.

2)Would Palpy's takeover of the galaxy have been possible if he had been from a Core World, like Corellia, instead of the provincial Naboo? The fact that he was from the provinces had a beneficial effect. And how did Naboo gain such prestiege? We know now that it was NOT the clone-producing planet.

3) How much of this is supposed to be an allegory for American histoey (a judegemtn and warning) and how much Roman? The Roman Empire did NOT fall b/c of barbarian invasion; that was the cause, not the effect. It simply got to be too big, with too vast of a territory to be served by the existing ecomomic and political infrastrcuture, and this strained the Treasury, and the barbarians took advantage of this. Obviously, this must have happened with the Republic as well. Or did it? Was the collapse inevitable? More to the point, IS there an American parllel here? Not at present economically--we are now, through the process of globalization, expoliting the world's economies to our will. And through their economies, their political systems as well. Through acts like the Farm Subsidy Bill,passed by Bush on May 13, it is now possible more and more for huge agribusiness giants to expoilt their growth thechnology in other countires. More and more, countries around the world are subverting their own traditional agriculture systems and dosmestic markets to grow what we tell them to (and we give them the seeds, while blocking out theirs in turn) and produce things for us the way we want them. How much longer such systems will remain inplace is anyone's guess. My guess is that if our civilization ever falls it'll be more like the Maya, or the ppl of Easter Island, who expolited their surrounding environment too greedily and when the soil and water played out, the civilization fell).

4) Finally, just how seriously shoukd you read into this, and do you think GL ever had an agenda for the films other than crucning popcorn on a rainy Sat afternoon? Not that we should alll get home from AOTC and crack open Gibbons' "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", but I get the feeling that that someday if the upon viewing the whooe thing from back to back, someone DId just that (maybe ahandful of ppl among the millions of fans), he wouldn't be unhappy. SW function on many levels; a great story, a fairy tale, a "Godfather" -like family saga, and a parabolic myth. Questions like whether Vader was the Hitler or the Eichmann-like character may be beside the point--or not.

[DanielSkywalker]

I definitely think Mr. Lucas borrows from history for his films. You have some interesting points here, but I do believe that the main cause of Rome's fall was the people became incredibly lazy and apathetic and the government became very corrupt (what you said was true, but this is just another aspect of it). They had little discernment or moral fiber, thus the empire fell from within. I fear that our own nation is headed down that same path. As for the whole Hitler parallel, I think Palpatine's rise to power depicts that perfectly. Am I right, or am I right?

[Senator Theant]

Yes you are all right.

And the fall of the Roman Empire was an effect of the growing indifference of politicans and regular people alike. "Imperial Rome" by Moses Hadas (Time Life) describes the final generations of the Roman Senate as "nothing more than the governing city council, whereby issues of significant importance were ignored in order to appease all the factions involved (paraphrased)". This applies to the Republican Senate as well. People thought so highly of their system, they thought nothing could disrupt it. They became too accustomed to the freedoms that they had inherited. I think LUcas is drawing a clear similarity with the Roman system.

Palpatine, I believe, is Hitler reincarnated. Or vice versa, depending on your point of view (A "LONG" time ago in a galaxy far far away). Hitler did gain the chancellorship after his party recieved a mandate from the people, however his ascension was entirely illegal. Once chancellor, Hitler promised glory and declared the advent of the age of a Third Reich. Palpatine pursues similar paths, while providing empty promises in the face of a disillusioned public. He too engages in acts of systematic genocide, while providing a cheap and easy labor source for his many military construction plans (which leads to the rescue by one Imperial officer of a certain wookie by the name of Chewbacca).

I beleive the correct role of Jar Jar in American history would be President Nixon, because in American history, this is the turning point of American politics. Like Jar Jar, the role of Richard Nixon in government resulted in a collapse of the prestige of the Presidency (or the Chancellorship). For Star Wars, this collapse paved the way for a position better suited to battle the Separtists, while also officially marking the end of the democratic process. For Americans, this too has transpired, the presidency has lost considerable amounts of public faith and this has lead to the steady decline in our active democracy. Citizens dont participate in the democratic process as they once did and it seems as though people would much rather elect a sweet-talker for President (such as Clinton or Bush II) than a blunt-talker (such as Carter). I hope that makes sense. I would love ramble further but I have an important day of school ahead of me and Id like to get to bed. Ill be back.

[WhatMeWookie]

Wow

It's not a case of reading "between the lines" but finding anything worthwhile in that process.

Gee, I wish Uncle George would have put as much thought and energy into the development of the TPM and AOTC screenplays. At this point, I really wish you guys would have had a crack. Honest!

Jar Jar = LBJ or Nixon. Has the world gone mad. he might have made it to the local council board in toon town, but I think we're reading a little too much into a two-dimensional character. His pro-clone army take was political slapstick to match his TPM antics. The fact is that the senate's overwhelming support for his position questions (a) why it took old rabbit head to raise it in the first place as it was such a central issue to face and (b) why Amidala was so democratically or dramatically important to this process when really the decision was not taken by either of them but by a unanimous or close to unanimous vote in support. All they were their to do was say ...how about we do this. They didn't take the decisions... it was a vote. The whole dramatic play-out of this is questionable and ineffective.

Palpatine = Hitler. Well maybe, but his TPM and AOTC incarnations would represent a very thin encapsulation of the evil of either the 3rd Reich or Hitler himself. It's an easy reference to make as Hitler was very likely the most significant representation of evil in the 20th Century (and would still make it in the top 5 today... am assuming that Osama would now claim the top spot.) These links to history may well be there but entirely trivialise their source.

But I doubt that George's plan for this trilogy was sketched out in great detail. I seriously doubt Jar Jar was even named or thought about in the mid-70's as this weak offensive character could only have originated from Lucas in his declining years.

I wonder if George will actually publish his orginal notes for the early trilogy that date back to the time when A New Hope's screenplay was being written. Has that happened in any way yet??? I think we'd find there was little to them beyond possibly the basic idea of the rise and fall of a "knight" who fathers a child that will ultimately be his salvation...and also the idea that there would be a lot of battles and a dark ending. I certainly don't think the storyline will have been as evolved and set in stone and would imagine that 95% of this latter-day nonsense has all come together in the last 5 years.

All the references seem more driven at establishing weak links to the later films to gain fan support than to core originality. It was great to see the parallels between Vader and Luke and the mirroring of the end of Empire and the end of Jedi. That worked. But how many hands do we have to see lost in combat to prove a point.

[Tovor]

But I doubt that George's plan for this trilogy was sketched out in great detail. I seriously doubt Jar Jar was even named or thought about in the mid-70's as this weak offensive character could only have originated from Lucas in his declining years.
I wonder if George will actually publish his orginal notes for the early trilogy that date back to the time when A New Hope's screenplay was being written. Has that happened in any way yet??? I think we'd find there was little to them beyond possibly the basic idea of the rise and fall of a "knight" who fathers a child that will ultimately be his salvation...

WHATMeWookie, look for "Star Wars, The Annotated Screenplays", by Laurent Bouzereau and published by Del Rey in 1997. *The original notes are there, as is George discussing his inspirations and the developments of the story and characters from the very beginning. *I haven't read it in a few years so I don't remember anything about Jar Jar, but bumbling characters playing lowly positions were always part of the story, characters which eventually became R2 and 3PO.

Page 9: A strong influence on Star Wars was AKira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress (1958)...
...The two droids did not exist in the first treatment; instead, GL created two Imperial bureaucrats modeled after the 2 farmers from The Hidden Fortress, who were basically placed in the story for comic relief and were taken prisoner by General Luke SKywalker after they escape from an Imperial space fortress during a battle.
George Lucas: "You focus on the human story first, and then you begin to create this world that everybody inhabits, and playing with the lowest person in this hierarchy, I created the droids. And that is basically how they came about. I was looking for the lowest person on the pecking order, basically like the farmers in Hidden Fortress."
Although Jar Jar himself was not part of the original ideas, the above shows that Lucas always sought to introduce the bumbling/unlikely characters into the story in a way that they would have an unexpected affect on the story. *So although Jar Jar was not part of the original 1973 drafts, the Lucas-mentality for Jar Jar-like characters was always there. *I daresay that Jar Jar Binks evolved from GL's original intentions of having a bumbling coward in his story for comic relief and inexpected affects, just like the bumbling farmers or cowardly bureacrats from The Hidden Fortress and the original SW drafts. (Personally I think Jar Jar was overused and over the top in TPM, but I see GL's reasoning for having him there.)

[Senator Theant]

I think theres more about Lucas than meets the eye . . .

In an english class recently, we were discussing the movements of Ghandi, MLK, and Cesar Chavez. After our discussion, it hit me that Star Wars is truly a masterpiece for the ages. The social movements of our past are depicted in it. Ok, so maybe Lucas is addressing the movements in specific, but the lessons are there just as Yoda's messages rang in our heads when we saw the OT for the first time.

In the movements of Ghandi, MLK, and Chavez (perhaps of David Henry Thoreau as well) stressed that in order to achieve anything in soceity, one must be purified in mind. By this, I mean that all the names above mentioned had a clear goal in mind and never let anyone corrupt them from their ULTIMATE GOAL. Whether or not they achieved their goal is a separate question. Whenever their was internal dispute within their movements, they took it upon themselves to cleanse their outlook and their membership. Whenever they fasted, the discordant members usually left and the leaders emerged with a refreshed goal in mind. In general, that was how those movements thrived in order to achieve their goals.

In Star Wars, we have witnessed the downfall of the Jedi due to internal disputes from within. At this time of chaos and disillusionment, it seems that the body of the Jedi order is suffering from a severe case of inflated doctrine. They are in desperate need of purification, and it seems one is soon coming. The Purge of the Jedi will eliminate the all the inflated doctrine and return the ORder to the simplest and purest form-which is embodied in Yoda.

This is how I believe that Lucas has viewed the saga from the beginning, and simplby left empty
all the blanks. Character names, planets, species are trivial things and, like user Tovor has stated, Lucas has spent more time concetrating on the general roles and lessons invlolved. Thats what I think.

[MonMartha]

I liked the last post. I see the parallels between the Clone Wars and the American Civil War. Frightening, it is.

But one thing to keep in mind is that we've seen how the story ends: How Luke demonstrates the courage to do what his father could not. With help and guidance from different kinds of people.

The Questions, in Order:

1. When Lucas sat down to write the Episode I screenplay, Jar Jar came into being. All he had previously were "notes" -- that is, how Luke and Leia's parents met, how Obi-Wan figured into the story, the structure of the Alliance leadership and the Empire's. Perhaps a "comic sidekick" existed, if only because the droids weren't together for long in Ep I. Interestingly, Lucas insists that tarriffs and cloning existed in early drafts! The mechanism was there, but no names attatched, besides Sidous and Tyranus.

2. Naboo, in the novelization of EP II, is wealthy. Period. Bounty is shared, a sort of "noblesse oblige" is expected of those of skill and talent. (How different it is here!) The warm and friendly people are matched by the temperate Mediterranean-like climate. Unless you cant stand warm weather (there are species that can't) what is there not to like? It helps that the Queen-turned-Senator is idealistic, honest, and a beautiful woman to boot! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif Yes, the fact that Palpatine hails from there makes him look like an innocent lamb, and he gets more credit for his talent. Is Obi-Wan the only one who can observe, rather candidly, his true motives?

3. It's not just American history. Ever hear of the Peloponnesian War? Or the Reformation, and the wars over "religion" (and land) that followed? More recent examples include the Sandanista movement and the war over the control of diamonds in the Sudan. Arrogance? Greed?

The Easter Island paralell is chilling. I am watching the forest fires in northern Arizona (I live in the south) and wondering if we humans aren't influencing the weather with our carbon monoxides and miles of blacktop -- just to name a few -- in ways that we will come to regret.

4. I will only say that GL meant "SW" to be a hero's tale for the late twentieth century. It works on at least two levels: the mythic and the personal. I hope that a heroine or two will be added to the lists (Leia and Padme) of memorable characters, alongside Juliet and Cathy Earnshaw Linton.

I hear my transport arriving,

MM

[Tovor]

*Thump*

[Tovor]

*Bump*

[JediBendu]

blast from the past style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

Originally posted by teta@
1) Just how much of these historical symbolism were part of the origional story as concieved by GL in the early 70's? For exampkle, was Jar-Jar part of the story from the beginning, and his role assured, or whas that a specific reply to disgruntled fans? Likewise, the role of the Trade Federation--would that emphasis on economics have been there had present-day historical events not played out as they did.

Jar jar would never have been part of his original idea, although the planet Aquilae would indicate that he was thinking of aquatic worlds which led to Mon Calamari.
I'm a full believer in Jar Jar being in response to disgruntled fans, simply because Jar Jar's personality matches the typical star war fan...umm most noticably US! the internet variety of the jedi species. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

the Trade Federation on the other hand was part of the original with the Trading Guild set up in The Star Wars.
In context with anh, the Empire represented the growth multinational dominance over governments, particularly the World Bank and IMF. At the time Indonesia had just gone through a political revolution, which turned out to be a corporate take over and carve up of the region. Throughout south east asia, similar events were occuring, with local governments powerless to anything about it. Viet Nam also had is fair share, and the influenced War (obviously) provided GL with enough stimulus to create the story structure of Star Wars

[PhantomX]

Originally posted by JediBendu@Aug 27 2003, 11:24 AM
I'm a full believer in Jar Jar being in response to disgruntled fans, simply because Jar Jar's personality matches the typical star war fan...umm most noticably US! the internet variety of the jedi species. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif
Hm.. I'd like to think I'm at least a little better than Jar jar.. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unhappy.gif

[JediBendu]

weeelll, hanging out at the Temple of the Lemur might suggest otherwise style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

oh I'm joking!

but seriously, there's an element of internet fandom that GL truly despises - Jar Jar, IMO, symbolises that

[bodhisattva yoda]

if we continue to upset him, he may just make jar jar a full-fledged jedi knight in episode 3.

[JediBendu]

JAR JAR FOR SUPREME CHANCELLOR!!!

[Gazelle]

Don't joke too much about Jar Jar, people - we have yet to discover who is under that Sidious hood........

[Trilogist]

LOL ... lots of great thoughts and questions to address here. First off, on a side note, I'd like to point out that bills are passed by Congress, not by the President.

1) Just how much of these historical symbolism were part of the origional story as concieved by GL in the early 70's? For exampkle, was Jar-Jar part of the story from the beginning, and his role assured, or whas that a specific reply to disgruntled fans? Likewise, the role of the Trade Federation--would that emphasis on economics have been there had present-day historical events not played out as they did.

As to the emphasized point above, I offer the following rough quote from the original Star Wars "A New Hope" novelization:

In the form of an excerpt from "the first saga -- Journal of the Whills," we are told that the once-powerful Galactic Republic, protected by the Jedi Knights, "throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match." Insidiously, like a house under attack by termites, the Republic rotted from within until "[a]ided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic....Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor...."