Would Anakin have turned if Qui-Gon was his master?

[Obi-wannabe]

Just throwing something out there. Would Anakin have turned if Qui Gon was his teacher? Do you believe it was Obi Wan's failure as Vader and Obi Wan seem to believe?

[Zedekk]

I am of the opinion that Obi-Wan was ill prepared to take on a padawan learner just after losing his master and getting ready to take the trials to become a Jedi himself. I honestly think that had Qui-Gon been given the chance to train Anakin it might have turned out differently for all involved. I wonder if the Jedi had any prerequisits to someone taking on a Padawan learner, like a teaching credentials "trial" or something. :holosid: :vader:

[Solo]

At one time during old trilogy Obi Van admits that he wasn't ready to start Anakin's training.

Obi Van was a fresh Jedi, who lost his mentor in a very bad way. He wasn't ready to take a padawan, yet.

However I do not think results would have been much different with Qui Gon, either. He was experienced than Obi Van, but even Yoda could not see the plan Palpatine prepared. Therefore Anakin would have sooner or later given in to the dark side even if Qui Gon trained him. With the path in front of him, Anakin did not have much choice.

[Mothman]

Just throwing something out there. Would Anakin have turned if Qui Gon was his teacher? Do you believe it was Obi Wan's failure as Vader and Obi Wan seem to believe?

Yes, Anakin still would have turned, IMO. I believe that Papa Palpy :holosid: was behind everything, so he would have pulled the strings to make it happen - one way or another. Perhaps the path to the turn would have been different, but the result would have been the same.


:bye:

[Darth Massacrus]

depends on whether or not qui-Gon lived and Obi-Wan didnt. I think that Darth Sidious would have had a harder time of it had he lived, though...

[Momin327]

I think Anakin's turn would have been less likely if Qui-Gon was Anakin's master. Qui-Gon would've definitely done a better job teaching Anakin to control his feelings.

[Darth Massacrus]

what if Maul hadnt killed either Qui-Gon OR Obi-Wan? who would have been Anakins master then?

[jayce76]

Qui-gon certainly had more affection for the boy , so he would of most likely trained him , to answer your question . . .

[Balnazzar]

what if Maul hadnt killed either Qui-Gon OR Obi-Wan? who would have been Anakins master then?

Qui gon I suppose. But: Would Anakin had turned if Qi-Gon was his master? I think Yes. Maybe not as fast. But it was just a matter of time.

[Darth Massacrus]

did you know that for a brief time during the Clone Wars, Ki-Adi-Mundi was Anakins Master?

[Fish1941]

I don't know and I rather doubt that anyone else knows.

[jayce76]

One man knows . . . and he ain't saying . .

[Darth Graves]

i cant truthfully say that i think anakin would have turned.
think about it, his entire descent into the darkside was based mainly on his trying to save people. and Qui-Gon was probably more likely to get anakin to over this desire than yoda was, because anakin had a ton of respect for Qui-Gon(being that he saved him from a life on tatooine(i think i spelt that right)) whereas anakin only respected yoda because yoda is well, yoda(almighty and fricken fast)
thats my oppinion though

[jayce76]

Just restore the Qui-gon scene in 'Revenge' . . .

Whoops! thats a different thread . . .

[Mothman]

Just restore the Qui-gon scene in 'Revenge' . . .

From what I understand, there is no scene to restore.


:bye:

[jayce76]

My mistake :bye:

[Sarah-Leia]

did you know that for a brief time during the Clone Wars, Ki-Adi-Mundi was Anakins Master?

You can't be serious. Anyway, I don't think Anakin would have turned so quickly or easily under Qui-Gon's tutelage.

[jayce76]

But eventually the Emperor would have got'em!!!!

[Cassus Fett]

I believe Anakin would have turned to the darkside even if Qui-Gon was his master, as its Anakins destiny to do so. Plus i believe Qui-Gon would have left the order if he had discovered what Dooku told Obi-Wan, but i dont think Qui-Gon would have joined his former master.

[Solo]

I believe Anakin would have turned to the darkside even if Qui-Gon was his master, as its Anakins destiny to do so. Plus i believe Qui-Gon would have left the order if he had discovered what Dooku told Obi-Wan, but i dont think Qui-Gon would have joined his former master.

I agree that Anakin would have turned to the dark side sooner or later. Palpatine's plan was really good and did not have any gaps. Qui-Gon may have delayed the inevitable, but could not stop it.

I also think Qui-Gon would have left the Jedi Order if he could find a chance to discover the thing Dooku told Obi-Wan. Like you said he would not have joined his former master. He was a rebel, but definately not a dark sider.

[jayce76]

He's a force rebel :nahnah:

[Solo]

You must have met people like him. This type of people are really nice people, they like to help others, they even take risks to do it. However when you want restrain them with orders or councils or ranks, they get easily bored and they quietly leave the order. I believe Qui-Gon had a similar personality.

[nea200pl]

I believe Anakin would turn to the Dark Side sooner or later, regardless who his master was. If that layed in his destiny and Sidious plans, there was nothing anyone could do about it.
I think Obi-Wan did great job - he was Anakin's friend, father figure and master at the same time - not easy task to do. I don't think Qui-Gon would be any better - he was too rebelious and I don't think could handle Anakin for as long as Obi-Wan did.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ Yes, I think it was indeed the will of the force.

[Rabid Whiphid]

However I do not think results would have been much different with Qui Gon, either. He was experienced than Obi Wan, but even Yoda could not see the plan Palpatine prepared. Therefore Anakin would have sooner or later given in to the dark side even if Qui Gon trained him.

I agree with this opinion. Most of Anakin's biggest mistakes, as far as steps that took him further down the path of the Dark Side, were made secretly, either in his own mind, between himself and Padme, between himself and Palpatine, or while Anakin was out on his own assignments, or simply whenever his master wasn't looking.

For example: Nurturing his inappropriate emotional attachment to Padme; Taking revenge for his mother's death; Accepting Palpatine's influence; Secretly marrying Padme, thus creating dishonesty and distrust between himself and the Jedi Order; Developing a lust for personal power; Killing Darth Tyrannus when it was not necessary; Killing Mace Windu.

I think the Clone Wars became a convenient and helpful distraction that occupied the attentions of any Jedi instructor who might have caught on to Anakin's lethal series of bad decisions, and stopped him before it was too late. I don't think you can blame Obi Wan for Anakin's fall from grace, though clearly Obi Wan blamed himself.

-

[borgmatrix]

I agree with this opinion. Most of Anakin's biggest mistakes, as far as steps that took him further down the path of the Dark Side, were made secretly, either in his own mind, between himself and Padme, between himself and Palpatine, or while Anakin was out on his own assignments, or simply whenever his master wasn't looking.
Yep. And I think Palpatine was really the key. As long as he was a mentor to Anakin, the fall was inevitable. Palps was manipulating Skywalker over so many years that, unless Qui-gon was able to discover that and stop it, the fall to the Dark Side was going to happen.

[Kal-El]

As mucha s I like Obi-Wan (my fav character of the saga), he was not completely ready to take on the task of teaching Anakin, especially since it was slightly forced on him.

I think that Anakin would fall anyways, but it would took longer under Qui-Gon Jinn's tutelage and that is without taking in account Palpatine's manipulation. Probably the only real difference could be that Jinn was more able to reach Anakin and keep him in track and that would hinder Palpatine's influence in Skywalker's young mind, but sonner or later Plapatine would recognize this obstacle and probably he would try to manipulate events to get rid of Qui-Gon half way of the training. By then Anakin might be less easy to mold at Palpatine's style, but still able to be twisted (like Dooku).

One interesting take or related subject to this is during the EU novels relating Anakin's training and how he covered the death of some padawans under his orders (to be honest I don't remember the title of the book atm) and that made Ferus to leave the Order, showing that Anakin by his own right was slightly screwed and with personal flaws that even Qui-Gon could not erase. As a user posted above, it might very well the will of the Force to make Anakin fall into the darkside.

[lovelucas]

Ka-El - if you could come up with that EU book title I'd be most grateful... I'm reading The Last of the Jedi series by Jude Watson and Ferus is the key player ~ references are made about him leaving the Jedi Order as a Padawan and it was definitely linked to Anakin.

[Kal-El]

At the moment I can't remember the tittle of the book, however if you allow me, I will ask to a friend that has all the series in pdf/word format for the tittle and if you wish I might be able to send you a copy.

[Kam Solusar]

This is something I think is purposefully left open for debate by the movies. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are a very interesting study in Jedi. I think Obi-Wan (of the prequel era) is the epitome of what the Jedi are. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though a lot of those qualities do end up biting the Jedi in the backside. Qui-Gon is what the Jedi should be. Which of course makes him a maverick.

That being said, I do think Qui-Gon would have had a much better chance of keeping Anakin on the right path. Even with the influence of Palpatine. When Anakin had problems, Obi-Wan was staunchily Jedi about it. Qui-Gon would have been much more personal with Anakin. He would have helped him through his separation issues, not basically said "you are Jedi, deal." Qui-Gon would have possibly found a way to get to Tatooine the moment Anakin started having nightmares. It's also possible that Qui-Gon's obsession with the Living Force would have clued him in to the machinations of Palpatine, at least where Anakin was concerned.

But like I said, I believe this issue was purposefully meant to be thought about with how things panned out.

[Zedekk]

This is something I think is purposefully left open for debate by the movies. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are a very interesting study in Jedi. I think Obi-Wan (of the prequel era) is the epitome of what the Jedi are. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though a lot of those qualities do end up biting the Jedi in the backside. Qui-Gon is what the Jedi should be. Which of course makes him a maverick.

That being said, I do think Qui-Gon would have had a much better chance of keeping Anakin on the right path. Even with the influence of Palpatine. When Anakin had problems, Obi-Wan was staunchily Jedi about it. Qui-Gon would have been much more personal with Anakin. He would have helped him through his separation issues, not basically said "you are Jedi, deal." Qui-Gon would have possibly found a way to get to Tatooine the moment Anakin started having nightmares. It's also possible that Qui-Gon's obsession with the Living Force would have clued him in to the machinations of Palpatine, at least where Anakin was concerned.

But like I said, I believe this issue was purposefully meant to be thought about with how things panned out.
I like your ideas here :)

[Cassus Fett]

The fact is it was not his Master that made him turn but his love for Padme.... So you could say if he hadn't of met her, he would have never have turned to the darkside.

[RollaFett]

Well sure, but if he hadn't had met her, then he wouldn't have met Qui-Gon, wouldn't have been trained as a Jedi, wouldn't have met Palpatine.....etc, etc.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

That would've kinda ruined the story, eh? :lol:

[RollaFett]

Yeah, just a little, methinks.

[Jedi Master 2k5]

I think that Qui-Gon would have kept Anakin on the path of the Jedi,he is stronger and knows the temptation of the dark side better than obi-wan.
In episode I Obi- Wan said that if Qui-gon would have listened to the council better he would be a member of the council.Obi-Wan always followed the code which made Anakin resent him. However Qui-Gon
bent the rules sometimes.

[Raganork8]

While I Agree, I think either way Anakin would have turned. In the end his turning had little to do with Obi wan and more with Palpy and Padme. Qui Gon, already broken up about having a ailed Apprentice, would have probably been more stern on Anakin to keep him on the straight and Narrow.

Plus he would have probably been killed by Count Dooku During AOTC which would have had a much larger Impact on him then rather than what happen in TPM, simply because he would have been older and more attatched to him.

[Kal-El]

^You know? Your post propose an interesting scenario. Assuming that Qui-Gon survived until ROTS (I don't think that Dooku would kill him that easy) and Anakin still turned to the Dark side. What would happened at Mustafar?

[Zedekk]

^You know? Your post propose an interesting scenario. Assuming that Qui-Gon survived until ROTS (I don't think that Dooku would kill him that easy) and Anakin still turned to the Dark side. What would happened at Mustafar?
Well under the tutilage of Qui-Gon I believe Anakin would have beaten Obi-Wan. How would that have impacted everything? Padme would have the babies and the emperor would have control over them...

[Raganork8]

I'm kinda sure that Dooku would have finished off Qui gon and his death then would have beeen 100 times worse on Anakin than before. But assuming he didn't die i would say that Qui gon and Obi would have killed Anakin on mustufar and Paply would have them killed later and the galaxy would have never been restored.


The greatest thing to happen to the galaxy was Darth Vader.

[Master of Brooms]

The greatest thing to happen to the galaxy was Darth Vader.

Back after a long break. :bye:

Not sure if your tag was meant seriously raganork, but it fits in with my own theory about Qui-Gonn. Which is that Anakin might well have turned even if he'd been trained by Qui-Gonn - but Qui-Gonn, after doing all he could to prevent that happening, might well have just let it happen as inevitable, shrugged his shoulders and gone into a retreat somewhere. Remember that Qui-Gonn is a bit of weirdo in Jedi circles - I've seen the words "grey Jedi" somewhere on these boards in connection with him. A bit of a mystic.

This idea came out in a thread rollafett started on the Duel of the Fates. And my idea is that Qui-Gonn is much less bound to the Jedi institution, to the immediate welfare of Anakin, anyone else or even Qui-Gonn himself, than anyone else in the saga.

I figure that Qui-Gonn saw much further than any of the other Jedi (look at the way he dies), and would be more likely to see Anakin's turn as just the crystallisation of a dark cloud that had been hanging over the Jedi (and the Republic) for years - something that had to happen.

But since a lot of my argument (in that thread) was based on Qui-Gonn forcing events into a certain pattern - in a sense hurrying up the crisis - by dying, it's very hard to imagine what might have happened if he and Anakin could have had time to have a normal master/padawan relationship - and what his influence on Anakin might have been if it had worked out that way.

I find it possible to imagine a kind of steely compassion in QG, the kind of steely compassion which would accept Anakin's fate as inevitable, after testing every possible lever which might avoid it. A very different approach to the other Jedi's attempts to avoid their own dissolution, or Obi-Wan's emotional attachment and love/hate towards Anakin.

My take on QG's death is still "this red-faced guy is too good for me - now how am I going to die well? What can I do by dying?" And in the imagined scenario this thread is about, I can well imagine Anakin becoming too good for his master QG, and for QG to allow him to turn dark by killing him, QG himself, once this becomes inevitable - but leaving a trace in the way he dies which foreshadows/predicts/produces (in my take these are equivalent) Anakin's return to the light side.

[Raganork8]

I can tell what would have happen if Anakin became a Fully trained Jedi by qui gon.

Palpatine would have been Killed and the galaxy would have fell apart fromn the war and the jedi would have been dismantled with trying to hold the entire galaxy together.

Or...

Palpy would have killed Anakin and The rest of the Army would destroyed what was left of the Jedi.

Either way Darth Vader was the "will of the force" if you will.

We must have noticed that in the movies the force favors NEITHER side of the force. Without the lightside the galaxy would have been a sith Haven and without the darkside the galaxy would have fell apart in dismay. "Civil war without end"

let's review each Movie...

In The Phantom Menace Qui Gon insist on the Jedi Council teaching Anakin the way of the force and then they turn him down. his selfishness compells him to teach Anakin himself which, down the line will be very important, allows anakin to have that special bond with him so that when he dies he feels hurt and begins a large relationship with Obi and Ani. And let's not forget that Obi wan Used his aggresion to destroy Darth Maul.

In Attack Of The Clones Anakin's brash ignorance and pompus self confidence causes him to lose his hand, which later will be the turning point for Vader, and Obi, Yoda and the rest of the Jedi followed the Jedi not acting on what Agression they could have and were almost decimated on Geonosis.

In Revenge Of The Sith Anakin's anger allows him to defeat and Kill Count Dooku (here is your biggest point, had Anakin left Count Dooku alive and somehow he survived to the end of the movie the Galaxy would have either been under the rule of the Empire and Count Dooku or STILL fighing the clone wars which would have ended in the destruction of the Jedi anyhow thusly not allowing the Jedi to focus on the true villian Palpy) also Anakin's (again) Brash and pompus attitude get's him chopped up which in turns allows for defeat later on in ROTJ, and Qui Gon's depper searching and Training outside of the Jedi Code allows for him to contact Yoda and in the end allow Obi wan to communicate Luke later on.

In A New Hope there's not much in this one, Obi becomes the spectral figure which is still not in the original Jedi code. And lukes hate for the Empire after killing his caretakers allows him to go fowardth and Become a jedi.

In The Empire Strikes Back Luke's Pompus attitude get's him whopped and loses an arm which in turn will again be the turning point for Vader.

In Return of the Jedi Luke's anger at palpy allows him to defeat Darth Vader and get tortured. HAD LUKE CONTINUED NOT TO FIGHT VADER HE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED, Seeing luke totured brought Vader back as well as the hand and Balance KEY WORD Balance is brought back to the force.

So without Vader's Darkside and Anakin's Lightside the galaxy would have stayed in turmoil. Had things happen differently it would have come out much worse.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ Some interesting ideas all. :)

I'd just like to point out my understanding of Obi-Wan beating Maul in TPM though. I believe that the reason that Obi-Wan found himself hanging on for dear life was because he was not in control of his anger, following the death of Qui Gon and so Maul had the upperhand in the fight. Once Obi-Wan cleared his mind, this was when he was able to use the force to 'see' how he could defeat Maul. So it was not his anger nor aggression that beat Maul, it was him trusting his instincts after being able to control his anger.

[RollaFett]

^Yup. I totally agree with that. His anger nearly cost him his life.

[Zedekk]

I was reading raganorok8's "timeline then I read JMH's thoughts and something struck me in as far as what I think happened in the fight between Obi and Maul.
In my opinion, Darth Maul fell because of "pompus self confidence" I agree with JMH assesment of Obi's state of mind and think it was due to a balanced centered attitude that enabled Obi-Wan to defeat Maul. As far as Maul was concerned he had Obi where he wanted him and was convinced (or deluded) the the young Padawan had no way out but to die.

P.S. love the balancing of the force thought line, raganorok8

[Raganork8]

^ Oh Why thank you, I've been thinking about it for a good while...lol.

Yeah I Totally agree, Obi's "lightside" allowed him to win, but it was his anger at maul that allowed him to wear Maul down. I'm a big believer in the theory that if 1 thing was different in Sw EVERYTHING would change. Had Obi Not been in such an impossible situation, Maul would have killed him and not have been deluded. and it was Obi's anger that got him there. So the balance is there.

Again I'll say the greatest thing to happen to The galaxy was Darth Vader

Because had Count Dooku remained in power things would have never have cleared up.

[lovelucas]

master of brooms:
But since a lot of my argument (in that thread) was based on Qui-Gonn forcing events into a certain pattern - in a sense hurrying up the crisis - by dying,
I'd like to read the entire discussion - could you direct me to the thread? It would be difficult to know the future pathway of Anakin and to let it happen because it was the will of The Force, but that's not beyond Qui Gon's stoicism ...ironically enough it could be considered a degree of detachment.

[nefertiti]

But Maul being arrogant was just a part of being Sith.

Obi-1's attachment to Qui-gon spilled out during that fight scene. But falling brought him back from the danger of the darkside.

Anakin still would have gone Sithy with Qui-gon. Palpatine would have found a way to dis credit Qui-gon in Anakin's eyes...but I would ahve liked to have seen that relationship. I think Qui-gon would have understood Anakin's obsession towards Padme and maybe even protected them... but to see Qui-gon riase Anakin...that would have been interesting.

[blacksaber]

Maybe Qui-Gon wouldn't have called him "Ani"