Duel of the Fates

[RollaFett]

I was on the treadmill a couple of days ago and "Duel of the Fates" started playing on my mp3 player. A great exercise song, BTW. Anyway, as I was listening to it and getting the usual chills up my spine I got to wondering about the meaning of the title and it's use in TPM.

What if it means that Darth Maul's mission on Naboo was not only to provide some Sith muscle for the Trade Federation guys, but also to keep a lookout for little Anakin and obduct him for Sidious to have. If so, then that makes the title of that track much more fitting, IMO. One "fate" would be if Maul succeeds, takes Anakin to Sidious, and then who knows what will happen next, but you know it wouldn't have been good. (Obviously, I'm ignoring the fact that Anakin turns in ROTS. This is all based on not knowing what happens later.) Since Maul was killed, however, Sidious can only "watch Skywalker with great interest" as he is trained by the Jedi, which makes up the other "fate". There is your "Duel of the Fates".

Another possibility for the title may lie in who was killed. Simply meaning that the "fates" are who would've trained him as a Jedi: Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan.
"Fate" #1: Qui-Gon trains him, he heads down a different path and becomes the Chosen One and fulfills his destiny within the Jedi Order and becomes the greatest Jedi ever.
"Fate" #2: Obi-Wan trains him and we all know how that turns out.

Now, the two theories can actually tie into one another as well. Maul fails in his mission to bring Anakin to Sidious, and Sidious is stuck merely 'watching' Anakin. However, since Maul at least killed Qui-Gon, Sidious is assured that he will have more room to influence Anakin with Obi-Wan as his trainer.
In the end, there were many different fates on the line during that kickass lightsaber battle on Naboo, and now the song has more meaning for me at least, even if what I just presented is incomprehensible babble.

[Zedekk]

I like your analogy especialy the fact that you have 3 fates just like the Greeks believed in 3 fates. *Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos* I must think on this more too much to take in atm.

[Tovor]

That's quite deep, RF. Indeed, you are right that many fates would be determined by that duel. The fate of Anakin, the fate of the Jedi, of Naboo itself, the Republic, the galaxy, et all. Though I agree with all that you've written, except for Maul's mission to ensnare Anakin. I do not believe that Maul knew anything about Anakin, other than nearly running him over in the dessert; nor Palpatine of Anakin's midichlorian count and potential. I believe that when he said he would watch Anakin's career with great interest, that he had only just become aware of the boy's potential; and that after losing Maul he was revising his plans, just like he always did. But aside from that, indeed it was a day of deciding fates for all involved, that much I agree with.

[RollaFett]

Interseting counterpoint about Maul nearly running over Anakin in the dessert. That said, I think you're full of it. Who knows, maybe Maul is a careless driver? :P
As far as Palpatine knowing Anakin's midi-count, well, I fully believe he knew that and more. I'm of the belief that Palpatine was responsible for manipulating the midi's to create Anakin, so he damn well knew everything about him. But that's not the core subject of this thread.

[Tovor]

Interseting counterpoint about Maul nearly running over Anakin in the dessert. That said, I think you're full of it. Who knows, maybe Maul is a careless driver? :P
Ironically, one fan's speculation ( I don't remember who posted this idea, but it was back on the old Jedinet board, if I recall correctly), had been that Maul tried to run Anakin over in order to A) Kill him to spare him the evil which Maul himself was forced into, or B) Kill him to prevent Sidious from using the boy to replace Maul.

[Master of Brooms]

I like your idea a lot RollaFett. There's something in that music which isn't in any of the other music John Williams wrote for SW. (All right, it's called a CHOIR.... but I think there's more to it than that). Glad you love this music too!

IMHO John Williams takes the atmosphere to a whole new level with this piece - you've got a choir singing their ***es off about something very important in a language you can't quite figure out (and maybe wouldn't want to). This is not to insult the music he writes elsewhere, there's just an element in this music that isn't there anywhere else.

For me this works really well in contrast to the (can't think of the right word) "homely"?? atmosphere of the rest of TPM. You've got all those scenes in Anakin's house, and most of the action takes place on Naboo -why the hell does Naboo matter in the grand scheme of things? It's a very beautiful backwater, but still a backwater. No giant secret clone armies, no Deathstar, no metropolitan Coruscant politics except with direct reference to Naboo: it's all very local, a bit low-key. And right the way through Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have this vibe of just doing a job for the Jedi, sure an important job but just one of many Jedi-jobs going on throughout the galaxy. (Neeson does a great job projecting this lack of self-importance as a kind of bass-note behind everything he does). It's not like AOTC or ROTS where all the characters are already marked out by fate to be galactically important.

Then John Williams kicks in with this music, and it's like the sun's gone in (notice how the sun's always shining on Naboo?). It's also very good how this fight subliminally - because we're concentrating on the amazing light-sabre action - shows us that underneath all that sunlit rural beauty Naboo has got its own hi-tech, utterly deserted Death-Star-style world that supports it.

Your idea rollafett picks out something that's really good about TPM which I hadn't consciously noticed before. I mean the way this fight is really important but we're not quite sure why.

Lightsabre fights are alway great to watch, but compare this one to the climactic ones in AOTC and ROTS and for me:
a) This one has way more aggressive energy and power in it (that's thanks to Maul), and
b) This one makes less sense in clear terms.
(Maybe these two are related?).
ROTS: we all know exactly what both those final fights are about and what hinges on them. AOTC: Anakin gives us a good hook to hang this fight on by rushing in furiously "to avenge all the Jedi Dooku's had killed". TPM: why this fight, apart from the fact that, faced with an ugly-looking mother with a red light-sabre, Jedi just HAVE to press the On-switch and make that "zzzzhhhhhungggg...." noise (it's in their contract)?

Tell me if I'm wrong; but by this point isn't Anakin already off to destroy the Trade Fed mothership? And hasn't the queen already found a long way round to escape, just from Qui-Go and Obi keeping Maul busy? So why does it matter who wins this fight? The invasion of Naboo has failed, and the fight won't change that. Sure I like the two Jedi and would prefer it if they stayed alive, but two likeable characters don't justify this kind of music.

I like it that it doesn't make sense at first glance. Maul is a big plus here; he says so little that no-one can say for sure what's going on in his head - but I LOVE the delivery of his lines, especially with Palps on the balcony in Coruscant: this ugly-looking killer says just a few words, speaking like someone who's extremely thoughtful, aware and focussed. And then says nothing more.

Personally I don't buy into the "Palps knew about Anakin all along" theory. I don't think it matters either way, because by the time this fight ends Anakin has really stuck his head up above the parapet by destroying the mothership - no way anyone with a Naboo-connection (like Palps) wouldn't know about him after that.

What's great about this fight is that the outcome WILL make a big difference. As you pointed out rollafett, if Qui-Gon had trained Anakin he'd have turned out very differently - I'd never thought of that before. It'll make a BIG difference, but no-one fighting knows this. To the Jedi, Maul is just a hood with a lightsabre - I think they don't start thinking he might be Sith until well into the fight, when they realise how good he is with that lightsabre; to Maul, the Jedi are just two more Jedi to be eliminated under orders (he's probably got quite a few Jedi-notches on his light-sabre already). It's not like AOTC or ROTS, where the bad guy is a dangerous ex-Jedi Separatist leader who's responsible for the death of dozens of Jedi, or one of two proven Sith Lords.

I reckon if Maul had won, even with the invasion failed, he'd have still been able to hang about on Naboo and hook Anakin in (Anakin is now an obvious figure, after destroying the mothership). "Hey Ani, wanna come and hang out at my place? You can play my electric guitar, an' I'll show you a few moves you can use on young Greedo..."

(is there room for a thread on this question: what kind of guitar does Darth Maul play? :music: Out of him and the guy out of The Prodigy, who influenced who?)

I don't think Palps planned any of this; I like to think of him as a very subtle and precise plotter, but also a great opportunist. But IMHO there's even more hanging on this fight than is obvious: because it gives Palps the opportunity we see him making the most of in the next two films. Because it eliminates the only two characters apart from him who - possibly - actually know what's going on. Both Maul and Qui-Gon are very reserved characters, with a lot going on under the bonnet. I get the feeling that in all the confusion about what's actually happening in TPM (the basis for a lot of criticism of the film - what's all this tax-dispute Naboo stuff?) those two have at least an inkling of what's at stake. Being the characters they are, of course they don't tell us much about their premonitions (maybe that's a condition for having premonitions).

Fight over - Qui-Gon and Maul dead; Palps can proceed without opposition: the Jedi Council may have hunches, but are pretty hopeless at acting on them, as we see later.

I'd never thought of this before, but what you pointed out rollafett got me thinking. These two characters are much more important than they seem IMHO; that's why they fight their ***es off (maybe harder than any other duellists in SW?) and why John Williams gives us this other-level of music. There's even a hint that QG at least realises how important the fight is at one point - that great moment when everything stops, QG sits down and meditates and Maul snarls at him through the force-barrier.

Doh! Riffing on like this, it's a bad habit of mine. But rollafett is really onto something, got me thinking in other directions which make TPM make loads more sense to me.

(Oh, and BTW my avatar is of me just about to fight Maul in Lego SW - so I know what I'm talking about, I've BEEN there man....;))

[RollaFett]

Wow! Thanks for the very thorough response, Brooms.

So you don't think Palps knew about Anakin, eh? Well, obviously I do. Hell, my theory about what the 'fates' meant really depend on Palps knowing. Furthermore, I fully believe that he's responsible for Anakin's existence to begin with so with my theory, there's a ton riding on that battle.

You bring up an interesting angle which I hadn't considered before. Qui-Gon having an inkling to how important that fight was. It makes perfect sense. He's the one who is so invested in Anakin and the "Chosen One" prophecy. Once he comes across a Sith, he must realize how vital it is to destroy Maul because the last thing you need is Sith running around when you have just discovered the Chosen One. You can't risk him falling into the wrong hands at that point.

Tovor- I really feel that Palps knew about Anakin and so did Maul. You make a good point about Maul perhaps not wanting Anakin around so he won't be replaced, but what if sees an opportunity to overthrow Sidious and have Anakin as his apprentice. If there's one thing we know about Sith, it's that they crave more power and can be counted on to betray others.

[Master of Brooms]

Wow! Thanks for the very thorough response, Brooms.
Thanks! I look at my posts sometimes and realise I've gone on about 6 times as long as most other people do...:redface:

Lots of new ideas coming out of this! Great! God this one's even longer... hope it's of interest...

Qui-Gon having an inkling to how important that fight was. It makes perfect sense. He's the one who is so invested in Anakin and the "Chosen One" prophecy.
He's the only one - the Jedi Council don't want to know, and only give in to QG's loner's obsession that Anakin must be trained because of his dying wish. Without that fight and the effect of seeing his master die Obi-Wan would probably have stuck to his "pathetic life-form" view of Anakin.

Typically QG doesn't try to convince Obi of his viewpoint (except by dying for it, the most effective way - that fits his character). He doesn't try to convince us in the audience either, just sticks to his own opinion. (What I mean is that the storyteller doesn't put him into a position where he'd have to explain himself - in an argument with the Jedi Council for example). His reasons, whatever they are, remain hidden. Sure there's the "objective" midi-count measurement of Anakin's blood, but is that a reason to train him? Given his age, you have to add in a "Chosen One" belief to come to that conclusion. And the kid has an overwhelming desire to become a Jedi, isn't that a bit suspicious?

I'm suggesting that maybe QG wasn't "right" in thinking Anakin was the Chosen One - or "wrong", either. Maybe The "Chosen One" is a just a myth, a story, a blueprint spun out of the collective imagination of the old Jedi, describing a possible way in which the Force could become balanced; there's no instrument that turns blue like a pregnancy-test when the Chosen One pees on it.

For the "Chosen One" story to happen, someone has to believe in it and make it happen, set it going. Once that's done, the story can influence people through their belief in the part they're playing in it, and maybe come to the conclusion it's supposed to. If it doesn't seem to be working, well, people will just say "obviously he wasn't the Chosen One after all" - e.g. Obi at the end of ROTS.

[You can paste this idea of the Chosen One as just a story that doesn't really exist outside peoples' belief in it (but a very powerful story, with a big hold on the imagination) onto Anakin's fall later on - he only "falls" in the sense that he stops being the Chosen One as this myth and everyone around him demands he should. Anakin only "falls" back into being a motherless kid who just wants to grow up, do interesting things, have good love and sex and be happy - the person he really was all along, underneath this Chosen One bull****. But the "bull****" has infected him, and he has the ability to live up to it (it wouldn't have stuck if didn't), so he combines his real self with his own idea of a galactically-powerful "Chosen One" - and fails to be either.]

At the end of the day no-one really IS the Chosen One (CO) except insofar as they and/or people around them believe they are. So QG doesn't discover the CO in Anakin, he makes Anakin into the CO (poor kid!). Maybe he even realises that this is what he's doing, and that deep down it's a completely arbitrary decision, but it's got to be done. He's presented as the kind of deep thinker who'd be like that - but unlike Yoda the other deep thinker, he realises that right or wrong someone's got to ACT.

Yoda has so many responsibilities that he always has to think of the consequences, and won't do anything unless he can see them clearly; QG is enough of an outcast to realise that this represents paralysis - he's much more Zen than Yoda. So it doesn't matter if part of the reason QG holds on this CO idea is because Anakin's a good kid who helped him out and training him would make the kid's dreams come true: good reasons or bad reasons, something's got to be done.

Coming back the Duel of the Fates - this fight is crucial because it's what makes this idea that Anakin is the CO really take off, so that the story can go hurtling forward. Without the fight this idea would have probably remained (in the general opinion) just an obsession that's got into oddball QG's head and got stuck there. But because of the fight, all this murky, hard-to-grasp and even harder to justify stuff in QG's mind about Anakin being the CO comes out and starts convincing other people - much more effectively than QG could ever have managed by staying alive and arguing about it. In my mind that's what QG is meditating about just before he gets killed - "I'm probably going to die, this guy's too good for me - but if I die, just make sure the boy gets trained, that this CO idea will outlive me".

So you don't think Palps knew about Anakin, eh? Well, obviously I do. Hell, my theory about what the 'fates' meant really depend on Palps knowing. Furthermore, I fully believe that he's responsible for Anakin's existence to begin with so with my theory, there's a ton riding on that battle.
I like your idea, and especially what you say elsewhere about it being vital for QG to destroy Maul because he's a Sith who's just popped up out of nowhere - just after the CO has turned up! But I don't believe it's "true". Don't get me wrong here, "you're talking nonsense" is not what I mean at all - all my ideas here are building on yours; I just see this theory that Palps created Anakin in a different light. I don't think there's anything in the films that conclusively prove that Palps did do this - or anything that conclusively proves that he didn't. But it's a very convincing theory, with this kind of nagging plausibility about it that won't leave me alone. I think it's as "true" as the CO story is.

See when QG realises he's up against a Sith, I reckon he immediately connects this fact to the fact that he's just "discovered" the CO, he's the only one who's convinced that this kid is the CO, and thus he's the one responsible for keeping this conviction alive. This Sith is obviously a threat to Anakin - so, maybe, a deliberate, intended threat? That's why QG fights his **s off. And that's why QG's ideas convince enough of the Jedi for Anakin to get trained - I mean, someone discovers a kid who's possibly the CO, and within days a Sith pops up and offs him in a hard battle: if the Sith are interested, maybe this kid really is the CO?

For me the ironic thing is that this interpretation of the events is completely plausible, it's what makes the story progress the way it does, it's what everyone in the film believes - but it's completely wrong! It was a complete accident! Maul couldn't have been sent to keep an eye out for the CO on Naboo because he wasn't there. It was an unpredictable decision by Padme to try to escape, just lucky chance that she succeeded, a chance shot that disabled her ship-reactor, and a chance decision by those on board to go to Tatooine where Anakin actually was.

It's a great bit of story-telling - because everyone's completely in the dark about what the Sith are doing (and we in the audience are only a little ahead of them), everyone connects the appearance of the Sith Maul to Anakin, and this gives the idea that he's the CO more credibility - but it's just an accident of fate!

This doesn't prove that Palps didn't create Anakin, of course. But I like to think that if Palps did create Anakin he did it through some kind of dark Force-alchemy, rather than through some "turkey-baster" method that involved direct contact with Shmi. So that Palps knew only that his creation was out there somewhere, but was happy to keep a good eye out, knowing that a big power like him and a force of nature like his creation would be bound to hear of each other sooner or later. (Otherwise, i.e. if Palps knew everything down to Anakin's zipcode and phone number, how do we account for what Maul does and doesn't do on Tatooine?)

So yep, in the end I disagree with you about Palp and Maul knowing about Anakin at the time of the fight. I like the Duel of the Fates because it involves all these murky things which aren't spelled out in the film, and especially because it sets in motion a fate which is the result of accident as well as what people are consciously trying to do. For me it's not Palps who's in control behind the scenes here - it's the clash between QG's "creation of a fate" and Palps' completely unconnected shenanigans (i.e. Maul) that make something unexpected happen, that make the Chosen One appear out of what starts off as a minor taxation dispute.

But that's partly down to my view of Palps. I don't think of him as the spider sitting in the middle of the web pulling all the strings, more as someone so perceptive that he's effectively sitting next to the spider, seeing where all the threads go, how everyone is pulled around by fate and their deepest desires. So that he can manipulate people by giving a little jerk on the same thread, and they can't tell if it's for real or not. But there's still an element of chance, or fate or destiny or whatever - Palps isn't in control of that, he just knows how its machinery works so that he can impersonate it; and as soon as a new thread appears (e.g. the Chosen One thread) he instantly sees how that one can work for him.

Using the same analogy: Yoda is just as perceptive but has never considered manipulating the web, only passively predicting likely consequences. So he's screwed because Palps is jerking around with the machinery (maybe Yoda can't even consider that someone could have that much perception AND be cynical enough to do this). And QG is a maverick, who's built up his "force-prediction" independently, sees like Yoda that everything's messed up, but unashamedly gives a great pull on the thread marked "Chosen One" which connects into everyone's head. And he only manages to do this by dying for it in this duel.

Well, your view is that Palps is in control, my view is that no-one is really in control. It's all left so unspoken that it's hard to say who's wrong and who's right. Makes a great film though if we can read all this into it - for all his faults GL has a hell of a knack with myths and stories. :bigsmile:

BroomMeister

[RollaFett]

Boy! Where to begin?!


I just see this theory that Palps created Anakin in a different light. I don't think there's anything in the films that conclusively prove that Palps did do this - or anything that conclusively proves that he didn't. But it's a very convincing theory, with this kind of nagging plausibility about it that won't leave me alone. I think it's as "true" as the CO story is.


This is being discussed more thoroughly in a different thread, and I know I read an interview with GL (post ROTS) where he says that he delibirately left it inconclusive in the film so the viewer can intrepret the opera scene however they see fit. As a result, I take it as Palpatine influencing the midi's to create Anakin. No turkey baster needed. ;)

someone discovers a kid who's possibly the CO, and within days a Sith pops up and offs him in a hard battle: if the Sith are interested, maybe this kid really is the CO?


Yes and no. My theory doesn't include the Sith attempting to kill Anakin. Palps would want to get the kid for himself. If Maul can't do it, then Palps is stuck observing Anakin grow and subtling influencing him through time. However, with Qui-Gon out of the way, that influence means more because Obi-Wan isn't as good a teacher.

So yep, in the end I disagree with you about Palp and Maul knowing about Anakin at the time of the fight.

That's fine. Hell, I only came to that conclusion while on the treadmill that 'fateful' day. The reason I give it such credance is a statement Sidious delivers to Dooku at the end of AOTC. "Everything is proceeding as I have forseen it.", or something like that. I fully believe that he has great manipulative powers and has been pulling many strings for many decades.

Sure, it's a bit of a stretch to say he manipulated the landing on Tatooine and the meeting of Anakin and Qui-Gon, and I'm willing to chalk that up to a little bit of luck. But not fully. Obviously, Tatooine was on the way to Coruscant from Naboo, and Palps knew that there were Jedi on Naboo that would most likely head back to Coruscant. Who's to say that that Trade Federation weren't simply attempting to disable the ship during it's escape rather than destroy it, with the hope that they would choose Tatooine to land? A big stretch, I know. But I wouldn't put it past the extremely powerful Palpatine.

But that's partly down to my view of Palps. I don't think of him as the spider sitting in the middle of the web pulling all the strings, more as someone so perceptive that he's effectively sitting next to the spider, seeing where all the threads go, how everyone is pulled around by fate and their deepest desires.

That's also where we differ, obviously. Maybe the Tatooine landing is stretching it too far, but let's say I'm right about that. Hell, even if that intriquite plan fails, I'm damn sure that he would've had a backup and the Anakin would have been discovered by someone. The point of having Maul do the pickup serves the purpose of revealing that the Sith are back.

In the end, though, I absolutley agree that GL has a lot of good ideas for this saga, and we're both probably reading waaaayyyy too much into a lot of it. But, as evidenced by the existence of this board, that's what makes it fun.

[Darth Massacrus]

Ah, Duel of the Fates, my fave SW music piece of them all. Imagine other famous duels of fate from the entire SW saga, EU or not, and listen to Duel of the Fates while imagining them. Imagine it while visualizing the following:

The Duel between Arden Lyn and Awdrysta Pina
The Hundred Years Darkness
King Adas and the Rakatan Warriors
The Duel between Marka Ragnos and Simus
The Duels of Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow
The sword clangs of the Great Hyperspace War
Freedon Nadd vs. Master Jedi Matta Tremayne
The Slaying of Naga Sadow
The Freedon Nadd Uprising conflicts
The Killing of Lord Satal Keto
The Duel of Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore the Indomitable
The Slaying of Master Jedi Vodo Siosk Baas
The extermination of the Jedi Masters
The Murder of Cay Qel-Droma

more duels of fate coming soon...

[jayce76]

I wish I had the patience to read all this . . .

[Darth Massacrus]

speaking of SW music, has anyone heard Vode An?

[jayce76]

I do love duel of the Fates , but I think I could be persuaded to love 'Battle of the Heros' more . . .

[jayce76]

speaking of SW music, has anyone heard Vode An?


Pardon?

[Darth Massacrus]

go to the Republic Commando website, and you can dowload for free all of the games mp3s, many of them in Mandalorian and all of which sound awesome, especially Vode An

[Darth Massacrus]

go to Lucas Arts' Republic Commando website, and get the games complete soundtrack in mp3 for free. You'll thank me later.

[jayce76]

I'm really not into the game music but thanks , . . . .I'm sure it's top-notch though . . .

[Master of Brooms]

For a break from all this deep discussion, watch Bart Simpson fighting the Duel of the Allergies...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aE53ElXla0
:grin:

Boy! Where to begin?!
This is being discussed more thoroughly in a different thread, and I know I read an interview with GL (post ROTS) where he says that he delibirately left it inconclusive in the film so the viewer can intrepret the opera scene however they see fit. As a result, I take it as Palpatine influencing the midi's to create Anakin. No turkey baster needed. ;)
That's a great thread, just had another read of it. Turns out Sargoth and/or Borgmatrix put forward "my" idea about the CO prophecy being just a story waiting for people to make it happen (and thus not True or False except as far as they make it so) back in 2004.

Maybe Palps did create Anakin. I just don't know - like you say GL deliberately left it obscure. Maybe even Palps isn't even sure himself that his messing about with midichlorians really caused (necessarily and sufficiently, to get technical for a moment) Anakin's birth. But to me that doesn't matter, because what Palps does know in the opera-scene is that the result of this whatever-it-was is sitting next to him and is fitting in beautifully with his plans.

I only think it doesn't matter because I'm bringing in this Dune-ish idea to watching SW - the idea that once you starting messing around with the Force on that high level, causality doesn't really exist; but that strong characters (like Qui-Gonn, Palps and eventually Anakin, in their different ways) create causality, by building powerful stories (the Chosen One, the threat to the Republic, Anakin controlling the Galaxy as a fulfilment of his "destiny") which ordinary folk (including most of the Jedi in this case) can use to make sense of what's happening, can end up mistaking for reality - when really it's just "a certain point of view".

That's just my take on SW, a story which supports dozens of different approaches to it (see these boards!). So if it does nothing for you or for anyone else, fair enough - but I don't think it's inappropriate just because it's from a different story: Frank Herbert didn't invent this idea, just developed it extremely thoroughly (sometimes a bit too thoroughly for me, in the later books :sleeping: ), and I reckon GL had a lot of insight into it as well.

Yes and no. My theory doesn't include the Sith attempting to kill Anakin. Palps would want to get the kid for himself. If Maul can't do it, then Palps is stuck observing Anakin grow and subtling influencing him through time. However, with Qui-Gon out of the way, that influence means more because Obi-Wan isn't as good a teacher.
Good point - that was your idea at the start of the thread, that to get his way with Anakin, Palps HAS to get rid of QG; and I think it's spot-on. Obi's a great Jedi, brave and skilled and a good guy, but in the OT at least he's not a great thinker; he hasn't been swimming around in that weird-**** Force/destiny/causality/future-prediction zone like QG has.

As a teacher QG would have known exactly what to do with this kid, because he was the one responsible for starting this CO ball rolling; whereas IMHO Obi just picks up this CO/"he must be trained" idea from his dying master without really understanding it.

I wasn't suggesting that Palps or Maul wanted to kill Anakin, but that the effect of what happened in the fight was that people in the film (e.g. the J Council) believed that maybe this was true. Or at least that the Sith had some intentions towards this kid. And that's what made them panic, believe that he was the CO and train him in spite of their objections. The Sith popping up just after Anakin pops up gave him credibility as being the CO.

Were the two events REALLY connected? I like to think that there was no connection, it was just an accident - really Palps and Maul were just interested in making their Naboo plans work out; but once this accident happened Palps (as usual for him) turned it to his advantage.
No-one can ever know for sure what Palps' knowledge of or intentions towards Anakin were at that point (if someone asked GL/got him drunk/put a gun to his head I'd hope that he'd give the same answer as he did in that interview you mentioned - "I left it obscure deliberately, you work it out..."). What I love though is how people on-screen make this interpretation, that Anakin must be important because the Sith turned up close to him and were maybe trying to kill him/get control of him - an example of people joining the dots to make a story and then acting on it, when this story is really "just a certain point of view".

The reason I give it such credance is a statement Sidious delivers to Dooku at the end of AOTC. "Everything is proceeding as I have forseen it.", or something like that. I fully believe that he has great manipulative powers and has been pulling many strings for many decades.
Definitely agree with you that Palps has been pulling strings for ages, and has great manipulative power. The reason I don't think he predicted that his Naboo-shenanigans would lead the Jedi to discover Anakin over on Tatooine is that for me that makes him too powerful, so that the other characters become just puppets on a string. (They definitely are that at times, when he's really jerking on the strings, but I don't think they're always that).

You make a good point about Tatooine though - it's obviously close enough to Naboo for a crippled ship to reach it. (Because of the contrast in scenery, background music and level of civilisation I previously thought of Naboo and Tatooine as light-centuries apart).

So given your point there's a kind of half-way between your view and my previous view which makes sense to me. That Palps did something with the midis, without being sure if it had succeeded or where it had succeeded. That as Anakin grew in ability Palps sensed his presence and thought "maybe that's the one I was trying to make". That Palps sensed that this big Force-presence was somewhere in the Naboo/Tatooine neighbourhood. So part of the reason Palps chose Naboo as the place to whip up a ****storm (with the primary aim of discrediting Valoram) was to flush out this kid. In the same way that agents provocateurs are sent out by a tyrannical government to whip up an opposition movement; any hidden opposition powers in the population will flock to it and reveal themselves.

So maybe by the time of the Duel of the Fates Palps is aware of Anakin's identity, after the pod-race. But only by this time.

I prefer this to the idea that Palps controlled things in detail; my preference comes down to my view of Palps which is different from yours. I think of him as like a great teacher, who knows when to step in and change things but also when to just let his pupil (the whole Galaxy) just develop in its own way. On my account of it maybe he did know something about Anakin before TPM - just not the details; and his Naboo-shenanigans, though cleverly designed to allow Anakin to appear more clearly to him, might well not have succeeded (though they did as it turned out).

And I interpret that line you quoted about Palps' foresight in my Duneish way, where predicting the future isn't perceiving every detail, just seeing strong patterns which can be picked up and used. In this scheme foresight is very much creation as much as perception, and the people who foresee effectively are those who can make what they see come true. (Obviously Palps is one of those!)

Hell, even if that intriquite plan fails, I'm damn sure that he would've had a backup and the Anakin would have been discovered by someone. The point of having Maul do the pickup serves the purpose of revealing that the Sith are back.
That's something I hadn't thought of before, that this revelation is a good thing for Palps, not a bad thing; because it panics the Jedi. It's all a bit neat isn't it? It seems Palps can't lose either way. Which makes it tempting to conclude that Palps was controlling it all along.
But I still stick to my view of him - IMHO the neatness with which things work out for him is down to his great adaptability; he can't be defeated because he just flows with every situation and pulls what he can out of it, however it works out - rather than controlling the outcome in detail.

In the end, though, I absolutley agree that GL has a lot of good ideas for this saga, and we're both probably reading waaaayyyy too much into a lot of it. But, as evidenced by the existence of this board, that's what makes it fun.
Certainly does! I don't think we're reading too much into it though; GL is so good at leaving things a bit obscure, rather than making his story make absolute and final sense, which would be boring. So when someone comes up with an idea like yours which started this thread all these other connections start lighting up - it all comes out of the question "what makes these films so great to watch?". And every person seems to get their kicks out of this story in a completely different way. Sargoth put this really well way back on that Anakin's Father thread:
Try explaining the politics of Palpatine's rise to power and his plan with Dooku to effectively divide the galaxy while secretly manipulating both sides of the conflict to a seven year old. Or try explaining why the Stormtroopers are the "Good Guys" during the Clone Wars, and the "Bad guys" afterwords. It ain't gonna happen. Does that mean that the child will enjoy the films less, or "miss" something? Absolutely not! Most of the greatest stuff about the saga is hidden between the lines. You don't need to dig this deep to appreciate or understand the story, but once you do, you will have a far better appreciation for Lucas as a storyteller.

[Javen]

What if it means that Darth Maul's mission on Naboo was not only to provide some Sith muscle for the Trade Federation guys, but also to keep a lookout for little Anakin and obduct him for Sidious to have.
I have a hard time believing this only because why didn't Maul just grab Anakin? Qui Gon tells Anakin to drop. But Maul could have stopped and picked him up and took off.

[Darth Massacrus]

getting back to duel of the fates...

[Master of Brooms]

getting back to duel of the fates...
Fair point, this is turning a bit into an "Anakin's father" thread... But then RF's original point about what the DotF means involves Palps knowing about Anakin, so I can't help talking about that. A bit.

OK, a lot...:redface:

[Zedekk]

I wish I had the patience to read all this . . .

^what he said

[RollaFett]

I have a hard time believing this only because why didn't Maul just grab Anakin? Qui Gon tells Anakin to drop. But Maul could have stopped and picked him up and took off.

Admitedly, this is an area where my theory has some holes. That said, I wouldn't dismiss it just on that. Surem Maul could've stopped and picked him up, but maybe it wouldn't have been quite that easy either. Qui-Gon wasn't that far away from Anakin and easily could've jumped in there to try and stop Maul.


Darth Massacrusgetting back to duel of the fates...

As Brooms pointed out, a big part of my point of this thread involves the Palpatine angle we've been discussing so we never got away from Duel of the Fates.

ZedekkQuote:
Originally Posted by jayce76 http://www.galacticsenate.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?p=790275#post790275)
I wish I had the patience to read all this . . .

^what he said

Gee, thanks for stopping by then. Okay, I'll try and summarize for you two:
I was contemplating what the title "Duel of the Fates" meant, and came up with a couple of theories.
Theory #1: Qui-Gon battling Maul in order to see who would wind up with Anakin. Having the "Chosen One" join the Sith at such an early age would have been devastating to the Jedi.
Theory #2: The battle deciding who would survivve to train Anakin as a Jedi. Either Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan. Of course, if Qui-Gon lives, the assumption is that Anakin becomes a much different Jedi than he winds up becoming under Obi-Wan's teachings.

That's an extremely abbreviated summary of the thread thus far. As you can see, it's easily able to be taken in a few directions and we've done that.
Please join and contribute your thoughts.

[jayce76]

Alright , Alright . . . don't snap at me like that dear . . .

[RollaFett]

Oh, that was no 'snap'. Trust me, I thought about it, but decided against it.

[RollaFett]

I like your idea a lot RollaFett. There's something in that music which isn't in any of the other music John Williams wrote for SW. (All right, it's called a CHOIR.... but I think there's more to it than that). Glad you love this music too!



I meant to bring this up earlier, but don't forget about ESB when the Falcon is approaching Cloud City. The music used there has a vocals as well. Sure, it's not as powerful as "Duel", but it's definatley there, and quite nice.

[Sargoth]

You had mentioned Maul almost running over Anakin on Tatooine. This scene is actually very poignient: Anakin has been under Qui-Gon's tutelage for less than an *hour* before this fight breaks out. What Anakin is witnessing - on his very first step towards his destiny, is nothing short of the first clash of lightsabers between Jedi and Sith in a millenia. From the moment that Palpatine started revealing his plans to the Jedi, Anakin was close by.

Also, if you listen to the music that plays during this battle, you will hear the motif play, just once, at one other point in the film. When Chancellor Palpatine's shuttle lands on Naboo: the moment before Anakin meets his second sith Lord.

[RollaFett]

Nice observations, Sargoth.

I had pretty much assumed as much, myself, when I came to the conclusion that Palpatine is responsible for Anakin's creation. The decision for Palpatine to make the Sith's prescence known at that time was no coincidence.

[Tovor]

I know that this again goes counter to what you're proposing here, that Palps created Anakin, when I mention the idea of Maul trying to kill Anakin so Palps would not replace him with the Chosen One...but here is a variation of that concept, one I've already suggested in past discussions about the topic. What if Maul was indeed trying to kill Anakin, but at Sidious' orders? Why did Qui-Gon think that Anakin was the chosen one? What did the prophesy state would signal the identify of the chosen one, which the narrative did not tell us? What clued Jinn in, other than Shmi claiming there was no father? Did the prophesy also say that the chosen one would be from a desert world, would be a racer, and would help desperate travellers in need? So if that was known, for argument's sake, then it may have been known by Palpatine as well. And if Palpatine knew about the prophesy, then he knew that the Chosen One was said to be the one to destroy the Sith, AKA himself. So he sent Maul to both capture the queen, and kill the one destined to someday kill him. But just as the queen escaped his clutches on Naboo only to come right to him and fall into his web, so too did Anakin escape his clutches on Tatooine only to come right to him and fall into his web. And in both cases he improvised and adapted his plan to fit the new arrivals.

[Emalin]

Wow. This has been one deep discussion. :bigsmile: I know this is a "Duel of the Fates" thread, but something Master of Brooms said stood out to me, and I thought I'd post my two cents.

Maybe The "Chosen One" is a just a myth, a story, a blueprint spun out of the collective imagination of the old Jedi, describing a possible way in which the Force could become balanced....

You can paste this idea of the Chosen One...onto Anakin's fall later on - he only "falls" in the sense that he stops being the Chosen One as this myth and everyone around him demands he should.... At the end of the day no-one really IS the Chosen One (CO) except insofar as they and/or people around them believe they are.

An interesting theory, Master of Brooms. I've never looked at it that way.

To me, it has always seemed that the prophecy of the Chosen One (CO) was indeed a true prophecy...one that the Jedi had pre-conceived notions about. Perhaps they believed (even assumed?) the prophecy would be fulfilled by a Jedi of unprecedented power. He would be a devoted follower of the Light who, by a great act of goodness, would bring balance to the Force.

The tragic irony of this interpretation? Anakin is the CO, but he fulfills the prophecy in a way that's totally opposite to what the Jedi expect. No one -- not Qui-Gon, not Obi-Wan, not Yoda -- expect him to fall. And when he does fall, it feels like the ultimate failure. Some think they failed to bring the prophecy to fruition (i.e., Qui-Gon); others think that Anakin was never the CO at all (i.e., Obi-Wan). In the end, with only Luke believing in him, Anakin kills the last of the Sith, thereby bringing balance to the Force...and fulfilling his destiny as the CO.

(*sniff, sniff* Ohhhh, the tragic irony! The tragic but beautiful irony! :crying:)

Anyway, just thought I'd post this as something to consider. In light of it, the fates of "Duel of the Fates" could be the different paths Anakin may take to fulfilling the prophecy. (Inerrant Jedi; redeemed Sith.)

:bye:

[Cydon]

speaking of SW music, has anyone heard Vode An?
Check my sig.