Who Erased Kamino From the Jedi Archives? [Archive]

catwmnjedi

06-07-2002, 09:33 PM

I think it would be cool if it was Qui-Gon... I put this on another thread too. But you're right... he had too much class to work for Sidious. I think he would do it because he knew the Senate was becoming corrupt and knew about the prophesy of Anakin, so he may have believed some bad things were on the way for the Jedi. He could have ordered the army, not as a traitor, but because he feared they might need one someday to fight the Sith. His intentions would have been good, but Dooku might have found out about it because they were friends (actually apprentice-master as it turns out).

Qui-Gon would have used Sifo-diyas' name to hide his identity, and kept it secret from the Jedi too, in hopes the corrupt Senators wouldn't find out before the Jedi needing the army did. Plus he wanted it already built up before the secret would be discovered.

This would make it even richer that Obi-Wan found the clones. They were expecting him... of course! Qui-Gon would've told them one of the Jedi would come to collect the army -- maybe even his own apprentice!

Just another twist on the whole story...

Obidobi

06-07-2002, 09:47 PM

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif

Sidious---sifo-dyas??? Do i have to say more?

Dooku erased it on palpys order.
Palpy ordered the clones

Vyndim

06-07-2002, 10:05 PM

Sidious---sifo-dyas??? Do i have to say more?

Dooku erased it on palpys order.
Palpy ordered the clones

If Sidious had been Sifo-Dyas, wouldn't the jedi have recognized that their Supreme Chancellor is a jedi who was killed ten years ago?

Jedi Master Pohatu

06-07-2002, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Vyndim@June 07 2002 - 21:05
[color=000070]Sidious---sifo-dyas??? Do i have to say more?

Dooku erased it on palpys order.
Palpy ordered the clones

If Sidious had been Sifo-Dyas, wouldn't the jedi have recognized that their Supreme Chancellor is a jedi who was killed ten years ago?</span>
Maybe he wears hheavy duty Make-Up that changes when you want it to. Or maybe he's a changeling like Wessel.

Obidobi

06-08-2002, 12:09 AM

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devil.gif
He does not need to.
Remember he is a master of the dark side of the force, and as Yoda tells: The dark side clouds everything.

Tovor

06-08-2002, 12:11 AM

I believe that Dooku was the one who erased the planet from the archives. Only a Jedi could have done it, and Dooku was a Jedi until he left the order 10 years ago, presumably after Maul died and Sideous seduced Dooku to the dark side. So like a disgruntled worker who quits his job and then steals the pens and paper clips on his way out of the office, or who removes from the office files anything that would lead someone to uncover his previous or future wrongdoings, Dooku made the deletion of the Kamino records one of his last tasks before emptying his desk and turning in his keys.

Qui-Gon was a hero in TPM, even though a bit of a maveric. We all like plot twists and Sideous/Palpatine-like revelations, but if GL revealed Jinn as a past traitor in Ep.III, it will negate much of the good and value of TPM, IMHO. And besides, unless Maul did not know about a partnership between Sideous and Jinn, and Jinn had no idea Maul was Sideous' apprentice, it would make their duels a bit contrived.

Senator Amory

06-08-2002, 12:18 AM

I tend to believe that Palpatine, after being elected Chancellor, had Sifo Dyas secretly order the Clones for a Clone Army of the Republic. While his true intentions were for them to be his future StormTroopers after he brings his New Order to power. He also had Master Sifo delete Kamino from the Archives so no one would find out about it, because if they would, he(Palpatine) could possibly be voted out of office. Because to take such a drastic step without the approval of the Senate, I believe, would be against the Republic's laws. Then, for the reason stated previously, he had Master Sifo Dyas murdered so no information could leak out whatsoever. :sarcasm:

I will say what I think of Dooku later cause I don't want this post to be too long. If it's not long enough as it is. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

Tovor

06-08-2002, 12:58 AM

I like your theory quite a bit, Sen. Amory, in fact partly a bit more than mine. I say Palpatine fooled Sifo Dyas into placing the order, but had Dooku kill Dyas and delete the files to cover his tracks completely.

Wait, my wheels are turning. Sideous seduced Sifo Dyas to the dark side and sent him to place the clone order. Then he thought Sifo too risky and not quite devious enough, so he seduced Dooku, had him kill Dyas to take his place at Sideous' side, and then had Dooku delete the files.

Count Dooku

06-08-2002, 01:20 AM

But this is very confusing! Mace, or Yoda never heard a Jedi named "Sifo-Dyas" no such thing what so ever. If Palpy wanted Sifo dead it would be impossible there was never a Jedi under the name "Sifo-Dyas". Here's my story Sidious hired Dooku and Dooku ordered the clone army as "Sifo-Dyas". If you dont think he knows about it he has to he hired Jango Fett for the DNA. Jango said something like "I was hired by a Tyranus" on the moons of something. My theory is Sidious used Dooku after seducing him to the dark side. Dooku erased Kamino of the Jedi archives, and ordered the clone army. Then he left the Jedi Council!

Count Dooku

06-08-2002, 01:21 AM

Count Dooku

06-08-2002, 01:21 AM

Tovor

06-08-2002, 02:32 AM

What you just wrote seems familiar. In fact, I'm sure I've read it once or twice previously. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

sam8k

06-08-2002, 05:22 AM

ive just had a brainwave. What if syfo-Dyas = Darth Maul?

Palpatine would know how well hed trained him and that Quigon and obi combined could kill him?

Count Dooku

06-08-2002, 01:21 PM

Sorry LoL.

Senator Amory

06-08-2002, 02:36 PM

That's okay Dooku, I've done it before too. All you got to do is ask a moderator to delete one or two of them. Anyhoo, this is a quote from the novelization of Ep.II. This is copyrighted material.

"Yes, Master. They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"
* * * * * *"No," Mace answered without hesitation, and without even looking to Yoda for confirmation. "Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council."

By what Obi-Wan said, he did know of a Jedi Master by the name of Sifo-Dyas. And on down the other pages, so do Mace and Yoda as well. Hope this gives some insight. :sigh:

RollaFett

06-08-2002, 09:51 PM

Count Dooku

06-09-2002, 01:45 AM

I dont know about Maul. He is a mysterious figure but it was just not him. He's more of a Bounty Hunter with a lightsaber. I dont think Maul would have done it, my theory is Dooku erased it.

darthfool

06-09-2002, 12:01 PM

Senator Amory

06-11-2002, 04:28 AM

Darth Fool,

I like the way you think. Because, Obi-Wan did say,"I was under the impression that he was killed before that." So, like you said, Dooku probably did kill Master Sifo and then use his identity later on to order the clones. Then he visited with Jango to persuade him to be the "donner" of the clones while using the name Tyranus. Then inform the Kaminoans, as Sifo, that Jango would be there at what time.

I never thought about that. Thanks for the info Darth Fool.
:look:

Winston_Sith

06-12-2002, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by Senator Amory@June 11 2002 - 03:28
I like the way you think. Because, Obi-Wan did say,"I was under the impression that he was killed before that." So, like you said, Dooku probably did kill Master Sifo and then use his identity later on to order the clones. Then he visited with Jango to persuade him to be the "donner" of the clones while using the name Tyranus. Then inform the Kaminoans, as Sifo, that Jango would be there at what time.
That makes a HELL of a lot of sense, however;

4.5 questions (Some of which may already have been answered?):

1) When did Dooku leave the Jedi Order (I heard somewhere... but forgot)?

2) Wasn't Maul killed about the same time Sifo-Dyas was supposed to have ordered the clones (i.e. ten years ago)?

3) Did Sidious take Tyranus as his apprentice before or after he (Tyranus/Dooku) left the Jedi Order? (I'm betting on after)

4) Is Sidious THAT much more powerful than Tyranus? I Mean, he (Tryanus) seems to have fallen to the Dark Side rather quickly after Maul's death.

4.5) Perhaps Sidious was hedging his bets; had his eye on Dooku at the same time he was grooming Maul to take on the Jedi, per the Sith Power Struggle ("Only two, there are...")?

padme_rocks

06-12-2002, 04:51 PM

I think that Sifo-Dyas was a jedi like it says but maybe after he "died" he becomes someone eles. I think that Dooku erased the file of Kamino. Just a side note I wish Obi would have cut that lady's head off that was in the library type thing...can you say winch.

"Why do I get the feeling you going to be the death of me"
Obi

Wolfe_13

06-13-2002, 01:40 PM

I have a post I created in the non-spoiler section that has some stipulation on all of this. I have yet to figure why we have a missing council member in AOTC. He is a Kamino. He is never seen in E2. Why is that did he erase it? For more debates on who called for the grand army for the republic and this missing jedi check out the post on the missing jedi member under the non-spoilers.

Darth Tasen

06-13-2002, 06:51 PM

I'd like to point out that in AOTC Dooku asks himself how the rebublic could have come up with an army so quickly which means he couldn't have ordered them. I'd also like to say that I think Mace Windu is a traitor.

Wolfe_13

06-14-2002, 12:34 AM

What would Mace gain out of being a traitor. I don't see him being on any dark side or anything even. Explain your opinion I don't understand ???

Tovor

06-14-2002, 01:12 AM

I'd like to point out that in AOTC Dooku asks himself how the rebublic could have come up with an army so quickly which means he couldn't have ordered them. *

Darth Tasan, there is more there than meets the eye or ear. *He didn't ask himself that question, he asked his Geonosian pawn in order to keep him in the dark as to what he already knew and helped plan. *When he reported to Darth Sideous he said, "I have good news, my lord, the war has begun." To which Sideous replied, "Excellent...everything is going according to plan."

Remember also, when Obi-Wan asked Jango Fett if he had been commissioned by Sifa Dyas, Fett told him that he had dealt with a man named Tyrannus. *Who did Fett serve (as bodyguard?) on Geonosis? *Count Dooku. *What did Darth Sideous call Dooku? Lord Tyrannus. *So Dooku/Tyrannus knew all about the Clone army, he just didn't expect it to show up at that time on that planet. *And, he wanted to keep Poggo the Lesser and Nute Gunray, and you, in the dark as to what he knew. *style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

Streen

06-17-2002, 02:15 PM

Dooku deleted the files on his way out of the Order. The Jedi knew who Sifo-Dyfas was, so it could not be him. AND MACE WINDU IS NOT A TRAITOR!

justafan

09-20-2002, 08:24 PM

A little late to the frey, but here goes.

I find it hard to believe that, of all the intellegence in the universe that there was only one place, ONE PLACE, that listed this planet/system. There had to, simply by random chance, be another place that had record of this. Believing that one person, Jedi or not, could eliminate every trace of this place is unfathomable. The powers that be knew about it all along. Yoda and Mace have always been aware of it, and the clones. They knew what was to come, and were aware of what needed to happen to ensure the prophecy was complete.

Darth Barrister

09-20-2002, 08:41 PM

Yoda ordered the clones. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

mtilden

09-21-2002, 09:56 PM

Another thing that bothers me about the whole erasing Kamino from the files twist is this: How the hell was it so hard for everyone to figure out what had happened to the record of Kamino?! When Obi-Wan was at the archives library, and couldn't find it the first thing that I thought was that someone had erased it. Nooooo, never crosses anyone's mind except for a little kid Jedi. How is that possible? "Hmmm...this planet should be here, but it isn't. I guess someone removed or erased it." Sounds like a logical assumption to make, doesn't it? Now I know that only a Jedi can erase such items and that it would be wrong for a Jedi to do that, but that doesn't seem like much of an excuse for not figuring it out. I don't know, I think I may jusy be rambling now.

This is quite simple, Obi Wan did think of the possibility that it had been erased from the archives, but he dismissed it out of hand, because he believed, as he said later to Yoda that it is impossible to erase information from the archives . He also considered the possibility that the archives might be wrong until Jacasta Nu, the Jedi archivist, assured him that the archives are never wrong. Another reason why he refused to consider this possibility is because it would imply, as Yoda said, that a Jedi was involved, that there was a traitor in their midst. This was so disturbing a thought, that he wasn't willing to even consider it.
Note that even Yoda is unable to explain how anyone could have erased information from archives, but he concludes that it is the only logical possibility.
The point of this scene, is to demonstrate just how blind the Jedi really are to the situation that surrounds them. They are so blinded that they are incapable of admitting the obvious, namely that the archives had been erased.
This is why Yoda made the point of prasing the children because their minds were 'uncluttered', which is to say, unlike the adult Jedi, the children are open to the truth because they aren't blinded by assumptions and dogma.
Obi Wan's dilemma is that he is faced with a conflict between two of his beliefs:
1. that his friends Dexter is a trustworthy source of information
2. that the Jedi archives are trustworthy
When these two beliefs are in conflict, Obi Wan is unsure who to trust, until Yoda assures him that he must follow his instincts, and not be led astray by appearances and false assumptions. You see, Obi Wan's mind is 'cluttered' unlike the minds of the children.
So this is quite simple, and is an expression of one of the principal themes of Star Wars, namely that adults frequently need to be redeemed by becoming more childlike.

Mann

09-21-2002, 11:21 PM

I think Jango killed Sifo Dyas as an Order for Dooku.
"always a pleasure to meet a Jedi" this was the test for the specimen of the clone army.

maddog62

09-21-2002, 11:51 PM

Mtilton nice explaination. You are very smart. Mabe the traitor has to do with the title Phantom Menace. More then meets the eye.

MegoHulk

09-21-2002, 11:52 PM

Not to get off topic but who did Dexters voice in AOTC? It sounds so familiar.

mtilden

09-22-2002, 02:08 PM

Mtilton nice explaination. You are very smart. Mabe the traitor has to do with the title Phantom Menace. More then meets the eye.

Gee, thanks style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif
Since you have stroked my ego so nicely, allow me to expand on my idea... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Anyway, I think that it is clear from both Episode I and II that the Jedi aren't really destroyed by Sidious and Vader, they merely take advantage of the situation, in reality, the Jedi destroyed themselves. They destroyed themselves through their complacency. Just like America before Sept 11, the Jedi are complacent, they believe that everything is hunky dorey, and that it will always be this way. Hence, they are blindsided by the appearance of Darth Maul, and don't know what to make of it. When they are confronted with evidence that the Sith have returned, they dismiss it out of hand "Impossible, the Sith have been extinct for a millenium!" They choose to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it isn't happening. By the time they act to counter the threat, it is already too late. Episode I ends with the Jedi finally acknowleging and responding to the the threat by deciding to train Anakin, whom they now believe is the chosen one, but by then it is too late, they are doomed, they have already sowed the seeds of their own destruction. The true victor at the end of Episode I is Darth Sidious, the Jedi just don't realize it yet.
There is a threat to the survival of the Jedi order and the republic, but they refuse to acknowledge it, because they are blinded by their complacency. This is why Obi Wan couldn't figure out that the archives had been erased, because he was blinded by his complacent belief that 'the archives are perfect'. This is also why Mace Windu and the others on the Jedi council refuse to accept it when Padme said she thought that Dooku was behind her assisination attempt. Their response was disbelief 'Count Dooku was once a Jedi, he couldn't do it'. Better to blind in their complacency than to admit to the threat that stares them in the face. This, I think is why Lucas has said that the PT is a 'tragedy'. In true tragedies in the classical form (Othello, Hamlet, etc) the hero is not destroyed by his enemies, rather he destroys
himself. The tragedy lies in the fact that it didn't have to end that way. The hero could have won, if only he would have been wise, but instead he destroyed himself. The same is true with the Jedi, they could have been victorious, if they wouldn't have been so complacent and let the situation get out of hand. That is the tragedy of the PT.
So, this is what 'The Phantom Menace' means, other titles that might be suggested that could convey the same meaning might be 'The Unseen Danger', 'The Hidden Enemy' or even 'The False Peace', but none of those titles convey the comic book, Flash Gordon, Saturday Morning adventure serial style that Lucas is trying to imitate, hence 'The Phantom Menace', which is the perfect title.
By the way, the traitor who erased the archives? Count Dooku almost certainly.

Jedi Master Shaft

09-22-2002, 02:14 PM

That's what I always thought. The Jedi's arrogance will defeat them, from a certain point of view. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Posted by Mego Hulk on Sep 22 2002, 04:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to get off topic but who did Dexters voice in AOTC? It sounds so familiar.
I think it's Ronald Falk.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tie.gif

DblDwn

09-22-2002, 09:15 PM

Sifo-Dyas = Sidious
Dooku = Tyrannus

Sifo-Dyas felt that the Jedi were becoming weak and arrogant so he chose to go to the Dark Side, which is more powerful. While still a member of the Jedi Council he secretly trains Darth Maul as an apprentice. Maul is killed by Obi-Wan on Naboo. Sifo-Dyas then orders the clones on Kamino. He uses his Jedi name instead of his Sith name to create confusion within the Jedi Order and to also have the people of the Republic hold the Jedi accountable for the clones. Being as that Maul is dead and he needs a new apprentice, he contacts his fellow Jedi Count Dooku and coerces him into joining him within the Sith. While Sifo-Dyas orders the clones, he has Dooku, under the name of (Darth) Tyrannus, hire Jango, the best bounty hunter in the galaxy, to be the source of the clones. Sifo-Dyas then fakes his death so that the Jedi will believe him to be dead to eliminate him from any suspicion and officially becomes Darth Sidious. Either he erases, or has Dooku erase, the Kamino records from the Jedi Archives before departing for good.

My bet would be that he has Dooku do it just in case someone found out about it then the trail would lead to Dooku and not him. Oh wait........kinda like it does. WOW! (Yes, that's sarcasm)

CaseyW51

09-23-2002, 12:38 AM

It had to have been Palpatine. If it weren't then the last scenes of EP2 would make no sense. We know that Dooku is Darth Tyrannus, and we know Darth Tyrannus hired Jango on the moons of Bogden (previous poster needs to actually watch the movies before having an opinion). If this is true then we know the clone army was ordered by palpatine.

Kyan

09-23-2002, 01:19 AM

Count Dooku did it.

maddog62

09-23-2002, 01:42 AM

Not to sound like a kiss a@$ but DBLDOWN and MTilden I think are hitting the ball out of the park. IMPRESSIVE MOST IMPRESSIVE. DD, everything you say is clear well thought and fact based except the Naboo=Dagoban. Mtilden, wow I could not have explained that any better. You are a true schollar and a great writer. I must give you both a salute. as for KC W41 please refrain from talking BS if you don't even understand the movies. What he is saying is Sidous aka Palpatine is also Sifo-Dyas who else would recruit a Jedi to the Darkside but another Jedi whom watches and caculates whom would easily be turned.

toochilled

09-23-2002, 08:28 AM

no doubt it was Sidious but htat may have changed.

i still like the idea of a Yoda + Dooku plan..... One that goes wrong.

edit: but that's just the fanboy in me talking.

borgmatrix

09-23-2002, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by maddog62@Sep 23 2002, 04:42 AM
What he is saying is Sidous aka Palpatine is also Sifo-Dyas who else would recruit a Jedi to the Darkside but another Jedi whom watches and caculates whom would easily be turned.
Who said that Sidious is Palpatine and Sifo-dyas?

Darth Vegas

09-24-2002, 12:12 AM

It says it loud and clear in the AOTC script.

Mann

09-24-2002, 12:27 AM

loud and Clear would imply that we all heard someone state it. And they didn't.

Darth Vegas

09-24-2002, 12:39 AM

I didn't imply anything. Read the script and see for yourself, it is not just some crazy theory, you can be assured that it is truth.

maddog62

09-24-2002, 12:48 AM

Me and Agent bond never agree but this is my theroy and if Agent bond has info that supports it well its like the gungans uniting with the Naboo all over again AB direct us to the proof.

Darth Vegas

09-24-2002, 12:56 AM

Direct you to the proof:

It's called the script!!!!!!!!!

You can buy it, it's in the Art of AOTC book, or you can download it.

I do not think the script in the Art of AOTC book includes the deleted scenes where we are almost blantantly given this info, but I'm sure you can find one on the net if you look.

Also, this information about Sifo Dyas was included in the novel, it is all very very real. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

borgmatrix

09-24-2002, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 24 2002, 03:12 AM
It says it loud and clear in the AOTC script.
I was just wondering whether Maddog was saying that Dbldwn believed Sidious to be Palpatine and Sifo-dyas.

DblDwn has said that he thinks Sidious was the Jedi Sifo-dyas. If that's the case, and he's also Palpatine, then the Jedi would recognize him immediately. Sidious can only be one or the other, not both.

In my opinion, Sidious is Palpatine. That being the case, he can't also be the Jedi Sifo-dyas. However, he could have been using his name to order the army.

Darth Vegas

09-24-2002, 01:31 AM

"The Dark side clouds everything." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

DblDwn

09-24-2002, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by maddog62@Sep 23 2002, 04:42 AM
Not to sound like a kiss a@$ but DBLDOWN and MTilden I think are hitting the ball out of the park. IMPRESSIVE MOST IMPRESSIVE. DD, everything you say is clear well thought and fact based except the Naboo=Dagoban.
Thank you. Very kind of you to say.

The Naboo = Dagobah thing is just an idea. Most likely won't happen but it could be made to work.

This Casey new guy registers for the site and then uses his first post by saying that I need to understand the movie before voicing an opinion? I'm not trying to start an argument here, or insult anyone, but what is the point of saying that? He basically says that I don't understand that Dooku/Tyrannus hired Jango when, for all intents and purposes, that is precisely what I said............along with a few other things as well.

Yes, I believe that Sidious is Sifo-Dyas. Now whether or not Palpatine is one and the same as well remains a 50-50 chance to me. There are a few scenarios for this equation:

1) Sifo-Dyas is both Sidious and Palpatine; Being as that the Dark Side clouds everything the Jedi might not recognize him. My problem with this, and this is crucial so pay attention everyone, is as follows: Sifo-Dyas fakes his death 10 years prior to AOTC, at the time of TPM, and becomes Sidious. Now if Palpatine is also the same person then he would have had to have been a Senator for quite a while in order to be elected, or even nominated to be Supreme Chancellor. You don't see 1st term, novice politicians as Speaker of the House do you? So for this theory to work then Palpatine, while still Sifo-Dyas on the Jedi Council, would have to have been a Senator at the same time. I don't see that happening though.

2) Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and Palpatine is a clone of him. This could be considered as possible. Perhaps Sifo-Dyas chose to test the cloning abilities of the Kaminoans and had himself cloned long before ordering an army. That clone then gets elected to the Senate and eventually becomes Supreme Chancellor. While at the same time Sifo-Dyas became a leading member of the Jedi Council and began to plot his transformation into Darth Sidious. Again the Dark Side clouds everything and the Jedi would not recognize the clone. Also the clone would have some Force powers as well, since the host did, and therefore could really mean it when he tells Anakin that he will become the greatest of all Jedi. In the novel for AOTC Taun We tells Obi-Wan that they suggested that Sifo-Dyas use a Jedi as the host for the army but he instead chose Jango. Interesting point here because why would he want to mass produce clones of himself if he already had the only one that he needed planted where he needed it. He can control that the Jedi don't recognize the Palpatine clone, through the Dark Side, and most other people outside of the Jedi probably don't know what Sifo-Dyas looked like or even who he was, but if there were millions of clones of him then anyone on any planet in any system could recognize the clones as looking like the Supreme Chancellor and then his plan would be put in jeopardy. Perhaps, when the time comes, Sifo-Dyas/Sidious will just eliminate the clone, and assume the role of Supreme Chancellor just before creating the Empire and declaring himself Emperor. That could work and would coincide with the name Emperor Palpatine in the OT because everyone would assume that it is the same guy.

3) Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and Palpatine is simply just a politician. This would be nice to see for me because everyone does nothing but preach that Palpatine is Sidious and I clearly have A.D.D. because I cannot follow the movies and foresee the obvious. Exactly my point (not about the A.D.D. but about the obvious). It is way too obvious. As I've said before whenever you watch any movie the person that is made to look like the villain for the first 85-90% of the movie seldom turns out to be so. I have a hard time believing that Lucas through the name of Sifo-Dyas, someone the viewers have never heard of, into the movie if it was not for some sort of a reason and I don't buy into the idea that Dooku or Palpatine used the name for diversion. I do find it extremely possible that Sidious used his Jedi name for diversion from his newfound self but that is it.

If I had to choose one of the above I would probably choose 2. It fits more into the story of the OT with the name of Palpatine attached to the Emperor. It makes sense that he would first make a single clone of himself that is meant to be the visible leader when in reality it is he who is in control. It would fit with Dooku telling Obi-Wan that the Senate is controlled by Darth Sidious because either Sidious would be the one pulling the strings. It would work with a lot more previously provided information than any other scenario I have heard.

borgmatrix

09-24-2002, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by DblDwn@Sep 24 2002, 05:45 AM
Again the Dark Side clouds everything and the Jedi would not recognize the clone.
The Dark Side clouding everything refers to the Force. The Jedi don't require the Force to see. They'd recognize Palpatine immediately if he was a clone. The same goes for others non-Jedi that knew Sifo-dyas. They'd notice that Palpatine looks exactly like Sifo-dyas.

justafan

09-24-2002, 09:39 AM

I haven't read the script or novel, but here's a few thoughts....

A clone has the exact make up as the original. If that's the case, we have two identical men with the same Force powers, and same sense of evil/bad/Dark running rampant in the universe. I don't see two people like this working together for the same purpose without each of them suspecting the other, and fearing for being ovethrown in the inevitible power struggle. This makes the argument for Siduos/Palpatine NOTbeing clones, IMHO.

None of the Jedi seemed to know who Maul was (you see him once, you remember him), so he obviously is not Syfo-Dyas, nor was he a Jedi. However, Dooku was recognized immediately. Therefore, he can not be Sifo-Dyas, but was a Jedi. It appears that none of the Jedi have seen Siduous, but Siduous could have been a Jedi, which could have been Sifo-Dyas. But that would preclude him from being Palpatine. I don't see how any of the three can be Sifo-Dyas. He is another person we are yet to meet, or find out about if he is already dead. Maybe he was the Sith with Siduous was the apprentice.

If that is the case, where Syfo-Dyas was a Sith, perhaps his "death" was the same as Anakin's to Vader. It strikes me that only one of the Jedi councel would have access to the Jedi Library, with the ability to add/delete items. Surely they wouldn't give that authority to just any of the Jedi (honorable folks or not, its just common sense). If Syfo was that great a Jedi, and had the authority/power as described, it would make perfect sense for he to order the clones, erase the files, and then simply "die".

Maybe he is the Dark side's "Yoda", training the Sith (do you think Palpatine, as a rapidly rising political star has the time or availablility to train Maul? Don't think so. Dooku didn't need training....(I'm still not convinced he is a Sith, however, just Dark).

In any case, I think we can rest assured that Syfo is our man at the Jedi HQ with the erasing capability. Whether or not he is still in existance, hard to say. Might be worth another thread.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif

maddog62

09-24-2002, 09:57 AM

I don't think the cloning process would be effective with the force. Allthough life is being manipulated by the beings in this story I don't think they can clone the force. The jedi are powerful with the help of the force but take away the force powers they are Joe Shmo, a face on a drivers licence, a regular guy or gal. I think that (sifo-dyas) knows this and hires the best non force using warior in the galaxy, Jango Fett. Luke without the force was just a looser. Who better to make a powerful army without the greed of the darkside to corupt them.

DblDwn

09-24-2002, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Sep 24 2002, 11:43 AM
The Dark Side clouding everything refers to the Force. The Jedi don't require the Force to see.
That isn't necessarily correct.

The Force is greatly dependant on the mind (mind control tricks of people and objects, foreseeing events before they occur, etc.). In our lives our mind is the key to our vision. We process the images which we see as upside down as they pass through into our mind at which point the objects are reversed so that they appear through our eyes the correct way. That being said, the Dark Side clouding everything could scientifically obstruct and/or manipulate the objects with which they see.

borgmatrix

09-24-2002, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by DblDwn@Sep 24 2002, 11:28 PM
That being said, the Dark Side clouding everything could scientifically obstruct and/or manipulate the objects with which they see.
Yoda and Mace described their weakness as not being able to see the future. That's what's being clouded. Not their physical eyesight.

DblDwn

09-24-2002, 08:42 PM

Yeah but their not being able to see the future is based on the Dark Side clouding their minds. Therefore, since their minds are being clouded, it is conceivable that their physical eyesight could be clouded as well when necessary since physical eyesight is processed in the mind.

Darth Vegas

09-24-2002, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Sep 24 2002, 03:43 AM
The Dark Side clouding everything refers to the Force. The Jedi don't require the Force to see. They'd recognize Palpatine immediately if he was a clone. The same goes for others non-Jedi that knew Sifo-dyas. They'd notice that Palpatine looks exactly like Sifo-dyas.
No, your wrong, remember what Ben told Luke, "Your eyes can deceive don't trust them." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

DblDwn

09-24-2002, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 24 2002, 11:56 PM
No, your wrong, remember what Ben told Luke, "Your eyes can deceive don't trust them." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
Thank you Bond. Excellent point, I should have included that in my post.

Perhaps Obi-Wan tells Luke this because of past experiences?

borgmatrix

09-24-2002, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by DblDwn@Sep 24 2002, 11:42 PM
Yeah but their not being able to see the future is based on the Dark Side clouding their minds. Therefore, since their minds are being clouded, it is conceivable that their physical eyesight could be clouded as well when necessary since physical eyesight is processed in the mind.
Seeing into the future involves the Force and being clouded in that manner makes sense. In fact, it was specifically mentioned as their weakness. Physically seeing involves mental processing, but still ultimately "just happens," or not requiring conscious effort in order to process. Seeing is physical much more so than looking into the future. Saying the Jedi are having their eyesight affected by the Dark Side is reading way too much into this. I don't see any of them wearing glasses or mentioning their eyes are deceiving them. I think this is going way to far to explain Palpatine's identity.

borgmatrix

09-24-2002, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 24 2002, 11:56 PM
No, your wrong, remember what Ben told Luke, "Your eyes can deceive don't trust them." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
He wasn't talking about being clouded by the dark side, but about concentration. Using the Force isn't about being physical, which is why Luke shouldn't need his eyes to block shots with the Force. He was looking with his eyes when he should have been using the Force.

Darth Vegas

09-24-2002, 09:25 PM

No it is not reading too much into anything. If Palpatine Sidious and Sifo Dyas are all the same man, then somehow he has to be using the Force to cloud his physical identity from the Jedi, or he's a shapeshifter, which could be possible.

You know the covering that Zam wears over the bottoim of her face, she wears it so that she can rest that part of her face, it strains her to keep it mutated all of the time. Sidious' hood covers the top part of his face, maybe for the same reason, so he could rest, he does look alien in ROTJ. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

Also I've read in a few Star Wars novels abouit a device that could emit a holographic face onto a person, thus concealing his identity. :look:

borgmatrix

09-24-2002, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 25 2002, 12:25 AM
If Palpatine Sidious and Sifo Dyas are all the same man, then somehow he has to be using the Force to cloud his physical identity from the Jedi, or he's a shapeshifter, which could be possible.
But it's not fact that they are the same man. If they are, then shape-shifting is a possible answer. A holo-emitter of some sort is another good suggestion. But not that the Jedi can't see. That's not realistic.

Darth Vegas

09-24-2002, 09:53 PM

Jedi are only flesh and blood, they don't have x-ray vision you know, or any other super powers.

They are trained to use the force at all times, but their is a Sith right in front of them keeping them from using the force, perhaps even using mind tricks on them.

The holo-emiter I was refering to is something very small worn under the clothes, and it does not emit a projection like the holo-transmitter does, it emits a projection that looks real. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

borgmatrix

09-24-2002, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 25 2002, 12:53 AM
They are trained to use the force at all times, but their is a Sith right in front of them keeping them from using the force, perhaps even using mind tricks on them.
Force users can manipulate/control/trick the weakminded. But Jedi and Sith are not weakminded and cannot control or perform mind tricks on each other. Palpatine can't make the Jedi see one thing or another. What the Dark Side can do is cloud the Jedi's ability to use the Force. And that's what's happening. But Palpatine can't use mind tricks on them any more than they could on him.

The holo-emiter I was refering to is something very small worn under the clothes, and it does not emit a projection like the holo-transmitter does, it emits a projection that looks real. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

That would work. I've always wondered why we didn't see stuff like that on Star Trek, given that they've have advanced holo-technology. It always seemed to me like there would be great applications for it.

Darth Vegas

09-25-2002, 05:04 AM

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Sep 24 2002, 06:58 PM
Force users can manipulate/control/trick the weakminded. But Jedi and Sith are not weakminded and cannot control or perform mind tricks on each other. Palpatine can't make the Jedi see one thing or another. What the Dark Side can do is cloud the Jedi's ability to use the Force. And that's what's happening. But Palpatine can't use mind tricks on them any more than they could on him.

Actually we do not know what the extent of Sith mind tricks are, but my guess is they are more powerful that of Jedi.

We really do not know the extent of either side of the Force, or what exactly the "cloud" covers, so really as far as this subject goes, anything is possible at this point. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

justafan

09-25-2002, 09:33 AM

The both admitted that not being able to see the future was their weakness. That doesn't neccesarily mean it all Force enduced. Some of it probably is, but it simply could be just that, a weakness. Maybe Anakin's weakness was his longing for family. Maybe Qui Gon's weakness was being headstrong. Maybe Maul's was blind aggression. Maybe Obi's weakness was being meek. Each weakness helped define each person's character (their being, not role in the movie). Different folks have different issues to deal with. Perhaps Yoda's and Mace's happened to be the same one.

Darth Vegas

09-25-2002, 09:53 AM

No the cloud is not a personnel weakness of Yoda and Mace Windu, as demonstrated here:

Dooku: "What if I were to tell you that the Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith."

Obi-Wan: "No, that's not possible, the Jedi would be aware of it."

Dooku: "The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision my friend. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called, Darth Sidious."

Obi-Wan: "I don't belive you."

Dooku: (some of this scene was deleted from the theatrical release) "The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help, he told me everything, the Jedi Council would not belive him. I have tried many times to warn them, but they would not listen to me. Once they sensed the Dark Lords presence, it would be too late. You must jion me Obi-Wan, and together, we will deystroy the Sith!!!"

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

justafan

09-25-2002, 09:57 AM

Thank you for clarifying. I did not remember that discussion.

But, it does bring up a good point. If the Viceroy felt betrayed by Siduous, why would they go to Dooku, who is believed to be working with Siduous? Doesn't this support the belief that Dooku is NOT with Siduous?

Darth Vegas

09-25-2002, 10:10 AM

No because nobody knows that Dooku is working with Sidious.

borgmatrix

09-25-2002, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 25 2002, 08:04 AM
Actually we do not know what the extent of Sith mind tricks are, but my guess is they are more powerful that of Jedi.
Yoda said the Dark Side is not more powerful. After 5 movies, I think we have a pretty good idea of how the Force can be used. Palpatine doesn't have more powerful mind tricks.

borgmatrix

09-25-2002, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 25 2002, 12:57 PM
But, it does bring up a good point. If the Viceroy felt betrayed by Siduous, why would they go to Dooku, who is believed to be working with Siduous? Doesn't this support the belief that Dooku is NOT with Siduous?
Agent Bond's right. Nobody knows that Dooku is the Sith Lord Tyrannus. But like you've said in other threads, I don't think Dooku's completely Sith. He's definitely fallen to the Dark Side, but I think his motivations differ from those of Sidious. I think there's a good chace Dooku does want to defeat him.

Darth Vegas

09-25-2002, 10:51 AM

I do too kinda, mostly because of this dialogue right here that was edited from the movie, but remains in the novel:

Dooku: "The Vicerroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago, by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help he told me everything, the Jedi Council would not believe him. I have tried many times to warn them, but they would not listen to me. Once they sensed the Dark Lords presence it would be too late."

Sounds like Dooku turned in effort to either deystroy Sidious, or, because he felt that joining him was the only his only hope to survive. But the new"Essential guide to Characters" says that he joined Sidious because he felt that Sidious could bring about the type of government that was needed. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/scratchchin.gif

Remember that Vader to wanted to kill Sidious, and he did do it, he was seducing Luke to become his apprentice, and help him win the title of Sith Master, which would have happened had Luke turned.

Same thing for Tyrannus, I'm geussing that he will try to kill Palps' but he'll be killed in a duel with Anakin (before he becomes Vader and just before his duel with Obi-Wan) maybe he'll even try to recruit Anakin to his cause, and just as Vader failed to recruit Luke, so will he, this makes perfect sense.

borgmatrix

09-25-2002, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 25 2002, 01:51 PM
Sounds like Dooku turned in effort to either deystroy Sidious, or, because he felt that joining him was the only his only hope to survive.
Yeah, I think that's true. I've compared his motivations to those of Ulic Qel-Dromma in "Dark Lords of the Sith" and Luke Skywalker in "Dark Empire." Both joined the Sith in an attempt to destroy. And both underestimated the Dark Side. I'm sure it's the same with Dooku.

maddog62

09-25-2002, 01:03 PM

Dooku is evil he joined the Sith to gain power because he was exploited and perverted to the Darkside. I don't think that Sidious would allow him to live if he had not Joined the sith or he could let the cat out of the bag and destroyed it like a abortion in the uteral stages. If Dooku was trying to destroy the sith he could have just dropped the dime and Palpatines plan would have crumbled. Once you journey down the dark path forever will it dominate you destiny.

Darth Vegas

09-25-2002, 01:08 PM

Good point Maddog, but couldn't Vader have done the same? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

borgmatrix

09-26-2002, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by maddog62@Sep 25 2002, 04:03 PM
I don't think that Sidious would allow him to live if he had not Joined the sith or he could let the cat out of the bag and destroyed it like a abortion in the uteral stages. If Dooku was trying to destroy the sith he could have just dropped the dime and Palpatines plan would have crumbled. Once you journey down the dark path forever will it dominate you destiny.
First, Dooku isn't going to tell Sidious that he isn't truly Sith, so Sidious has no reason to just destroy him. He needs an apprentice.

Second, Dooku also needs Sidious. He might want to destroy the Sith eventually, but we also know that he feels the Senate is corrupt as well. He disagrees with the way the Jedi and Republic currently function and wants changes. In order to make that happen, Dooku needs Sidious. Once they've won, Dooku could then attempt to defeat Sidious.

Another interesting consideration is that Dooku did "drop the dime." He practically told Obi-wan that Palpatine was Sidious. But Obi-wan wasn't willing to believe that the Sith controlled the Senate. Nor were Yoda or Mace. That might be part of Dooku's frustration with the Jedi. They don't listen, a problem Qui-gon experienced as well, I think.

James

09-26-2002, 01:01 AM

It was Dooku. definitely. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

He didn't want anyone to find Kamino where the secret army was being cloned. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

Darth Vegas

09-26-2002, 01:10 AM

Yes it was Dooku that erased Kamino fromthe Jedi Archives, but it was not Dooku who ordered the clone army, it was entirely different person, Sifo Dyas, who I belive to be Sidious.

Even if he's not Sidious it still was not Dooku posing as the Jedi because both Sifo Dyas and Darth Tyrannus were on Kamino. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

DblDwn

09-26-2002, 02:04 AM

Actually, from what I can recall, there is no proof that Dooku/Tyrannus was ever on Kamino is there?

Jango says that he was hired by Tyrannus on one of the moons of Bogden. It is never stated that Tyrannus was on Kamino though.

If everyone would read the novelization for AOTC this would be a lot easier. Don't you agree Bond?

It clearly states more info regarding Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones himself and all but confirms that Sifo-Dyas is Sidious.

As I said before though I would guess that Sifo-Dyas had Dooku erase Kamino from the archives so that if and when it was discovered it would lead to Dooku and not Sidious. Kinda like it does.

Darth Vegas

09-26-2002, 02:05 AM

In the script in novel Lama Su tells Obi Wan that when Sifo Dyas was there he told them a man called Darth Tyrannus would one day arrive with Jango Fett.

DblDwn

09-26-2002, 02:55 AM

That's not in the book is it? I've got it right here and I cannot find that line.

Maybe it's just that I'm falling asleep and need to go to bed.

Jacen Solo

09-26-2002, 03:20 AM

I think that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas (the real Sifo-Dyas, mind you) was killed ten years before AoTC, just as Obi-Wan tells us.

Erasing Kamino from the Jedi Archives had to be the work of the Sith Lords ... Darth Tyranus and his master, Darth Sidious. It makes perfect sense that Dooku would erase the files, he being a former Jedi. But as for the clone army ... there lies the mystery. Is it possible that Sidious himself went to Kamino (possibly disguised as Palpatine) and ordered the clone army, assuming the name of Sifo-Dyas to ward off suspicion from the Kaminoans?

Just a thought.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/trooperz.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif

MegoHulk

09-26-2002, 03:55 AM

Yeah Bond, I don't remember that from the novel...maybe you misread it? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Darth Vegas

09-26-2002, 05:10 AM

Well if your read the post you'd notice it was not a direct quote, however, it is in both the script and novel that Lama Su tells Obi-Wan that information.

maddog62

09-26-2002, 11:21 AM

(1) A good manipulator uses bits of truth to mask his lies.
(2) Vader didn't wan't to destroy the Emperor until ESB
(3) (Yoda) Once you Journey down the Dark Path forever will it dominate your Destiney. He says this because until Luke helps Vader come back this is believed to be the absolute truth. Because they probably will fail with Dooku.
(4) When Vader want's to destroy the Emperor he has no intention of becoming good he just wants to turn Luke bad and control the Empire until he actually kills the Emperor.
(5) So to say that Dooku real is not a Sith is unsupported He doesn't tell Obi-Wan that palpatine is Sidious or related in some way for all you who believe he is a clone. He doesn't tell Obi-Wan that he is training under Sidious. he just trying to turn Obi-Wan to his side. (he uses Qui-Gon's name to capture OW emotionally)
(6) GL makes these movies to to be More than meets the eye.
(7)One question for all of you have you ever heard of politicians whom leak out secret information to manipulate the public? He is trying to see if OW will believe him.

DblDwn

09-26-2002, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Luuke_Skywalker@Sep 26 2002, 06:20 AM
I think that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas (the real Sifo-Dyas, mind you) was killed ten years before AoTC, just as Obi-Wan tells us.

Erasing Kamino from the Jedi Archives had to be the work of the Sith Lords ... Darth Tyranus and his master, Darth Sidious. It makes perfect sense that Dooku would erase the files, he being a former Jedi. But as for the clone army ... there lies the mystery. Is it possible that Sidious himself went to Kamino (possibly disguised as Palpatine) and ordered the clone army, assuming the name of Sifo-Dyas to ward off suspicion from the Kaminoans?

Just a thought.

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/trooperz.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/saber.gif
So you believe that Palpatine is not Sidious but that Sifo-Dyas is really dead?

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Either 1) Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and Palpatine is just a politician, 2) Palpatine is Sidious and Sifo-Dyas is really dead, 3) Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and Palpatine is a clone of him, 4) Sifo-Dyas and Sidious and Palpatine are all the same person.

These are the only 4 possible scenarios and there are no more that are logical.

borgmatrix

09-26-2002, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by maddog62@Sep 26 2002, 02:21 PM
(5) So to say that Dooku real is not a Sith is unsupported He doesn't tell Obi-Wan that palpatine is Sidious or related in some way for all you who believe he is a clone. He doesn't tell Obi-Wan that he is training under Sidious. he just trying to turn Obi-Wan to his side. (he uses Qui-Gon's name to capture OW emotionally)
We don't know that it's unsupported, because we don't know Dooku's motivation. Sure, it could just be manipulation. But it also could be that he's looking to defeat Sidious at some point. We just don't know.

Martini

09-26-2002, 01:23 PM

Either 1) Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and Palpatine is just a politician, 2) Palpatine is Sidious and Sifo-Dyas is really dead, 3) Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and Palpatine is a clone of him, 4) Sifo-Dyas and Sidious and Palpatine are all the same person.

its definately gonna be #4. Lucas doesnt make these movies that complex. and its been hinted at sooo many times that sidious is palpatine. why else would sidious be in control of the senate in the OT? cause he is palpatine, or was. course, neither of those names were even mentioned in the OT, but we know whose who. and all it was for sifo was sidious going down there in disguise saying he is a jedi knight and wanted some clones. then dooku picked up jango, erased the files and starting making clones. really simple in my opinion. i dont see where all the confusion is but i guess it is nice to suspect weird things to happen cause we all do love those surprises

Darth Vegas

09-26-2002, 07:30 PM

I have said this before on here, I will yet have to say it again:

Vader was a REAL SITH and he SERIOSLY wanted to do away with Palps' so he could become the Master, same goes for Dooku.

If he wasn't a Sith, and just wanted to do away with Sidious, then he could have used that whole entire droid army, plus himself to go after him, I'm sure Sidious would not have fared so well against all that.

If Dooku was not fully given over to the Dark Side, he would not have fought with a single Jedi, and he would not have seen to it that so many Jedi died in the arena, and he would not have used force lightning.

It's the same situation as with Vader, it has to be. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif

borgmatrix

09-26-2002, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 26 2002, 10:30 PM
If he wasn't a Sith, and just wanted to do away with Sidious, then he could have used that whole entire droid army, plus himself to go after him, I'm sure Sidious would not have fared so well against all that.
It's not just about defeating Sidious. Dooku also feels the Republic needs change and obviously disagrees with the current ways of the Jedi. He says as much to Obi-wan when talking about corruption. He needs Sidious in order to bring about change in the Republic. Once they win, then he could consider getting rid of Sidious.

I'm not saying this is fact. It's just a suggestion I'm making. I'm not comparing Dooku's motives to Vader. I realize they differ.

Darth Vegas

09-26-2002, 08:00 PM

Actually he doesn't need Sidious in order to bring about the change that is "needed" in the Republic. I say the only change needed is that coniving Palpatine, who is actually the one spreading all the corruption in the Senate.

If his true motives were to deystroy Sidious and to set up his "perfect government", he would just have used the droid armies to do both. You saw how easily the Jedi were killed oin the arena did you not? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

borgmatrix

09-26-2002, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 26 2002, 11:00 PM
Actually he doesn't need Sidious in order to bring about the change that is "needed" in the Republic. I say the only change needed is that coniving Palpatine, who is actually the one spreading all the corruption in the Senate.
We know Qui-gon clashed with the Jedi Council many times. I've gotten the impression it was the same way with Dooku. He was fed up with the Jedi and with the Republic, which is why he left. That had nothing to do with Palpatine. It was an opinion Dooku came to independent of the Chancellor.

With Sidious also looking to make changes, Dooku has an opportunity to join the effort, instead of opposing him and getting destroyed. Dooku has to be smart enough to know that Sidious is a major force to be reckoned with. If he does want to destroy Sidious, Dooku knows he can't just go and do it. It would be smarter to try and gain his trust and wait for the right moment.

In that sense, it's similar to Vader's situation. Vader couldn't defeat the Emperor alone. But when Luke came along, he had a chance to overpower him. With Dooku, Obi-wan was a possible partner.

justafan

09-26-2002, 10:30 PM

OK, I'll get blown out of the water, but here goes.

I don't see Dooku as a Sith for the following reasons:

1. I think we can agree that as a Sith, Maul was less than perfect. Why, then, would Siduous not take Dooku as the apprentice right off? He was already a Jedi, trained in the arts, able to hold his own. Why waste the time and effort on someone else? No, I'm not going to hire this lawyer to defend me, I'm going to adopt this baby and train it all it's life to be a lawyer, and then, when that kids dies, I'll just hire the best lawyer out there. Doesn't make sense. We would have met Dooku before we met Maul, if Dooku was Sith.

2. We know that the Sith don't mind parterning with like minded individuals. Vader certainly liked working with Fett in ESB, didn't he? Are we to argue that Fett was therefore Jedi? I think not. Dooku is working with Siduous because they have the same political views. The both want the Jedi gone. They both want a different type of government in the universe. They both use the Force. Heck, I bet the get together on Monday nights, drink beer, and watch the football game. That doesn't make Dooku Sith.

3. Yoda never once said "Oh, Dooku, you dark fallen Jedi. You must be the other Sith we have looked these ten long years for and have been so unsuccessful in finding. You know, we never ever put two and two together to realize that about the time you left, we suddenly were faced with a quiz of monumental proportions with a result that had implications of universal destruction, and didn't realize that one of our own, who left in less than desireable conditions, just might have the answer, or at least some information, that might help us out." Nope, never said it, to Dooku, to Mace, to Obi, to anyone. I think that's big.

4. He just isn't bad enough. Vader was Bad. Maul, although less than Vader, was indeed Bad. Siduous is Bad. Dooku, not good, but definately not Bad, either. He ran away from a fight, for crying out loud. None of the other ones did. Even Palpy, when faced with the certainty that if Vader was successful in his turn, Vader and Luke would then turn on him and destroy him, never flinched.

Nope. Dooku simply is just a fallen Jedi, with a bad attitude, and a political point of view that matches the soon to be Emporer.

maddog62

09-26-2002, 11:55 PM

(To answer question # 1) Darth Maul was an expendable tool used by Palpatine to Leak out the Revival of the Sith. Although DM looked cool and was mean he was not useful for covert operations inside of the Jedi Temple. Dooku was when part of the Jedi. I also think that is why Sidous is Sifo-Dyas were else did they learn about the Sith maybe from the Sith Holocrone.
(#2) They probably do drink together because they are both Sith
(#3) Yoda doesn't know that he is a Sith he just senses the Darkside in him. It would probably except able that not all Fallen Jedi are Sith because there are only two Sith. Which would probably make lightsaber duel few and far between. Although Yoda doesn't know he is a Sith we all know he is because we Know his Sith name that Sidious calls him at the end Darth Tyranis(spell?)
(#4) Retreat today and live to fight another day he controls a Droid Army that Destroys about 200 Jedi and Threatons the Republic. Can you say Ussama Bin Ladden or Sadam Hussian evil people retreat all the time the Iraqie army retreated all the way back to Bagdad in 1991

borgmatrix

09-27-2002, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 27 2002, 01:30 AM
Nope. Dooku simply is just a fallen Jedi, with a bad attitude, and a political point of view that matches the soon to be Emporer.
Like maddog62 said, Sidious refers to Dooku as Lord Tyrannus at the end of AOTC. So Dooku is a Sith Lord. He might not have been Sith all his life, but then Anakin wasn't either. I just feel that his reason for joining Sidious isn't completely genuine.

You're right that Dooku seems conflicted. There seems to be good and bad in him. Sort of like Vader, in that regard, except that Dooku's darker side doesn't seem to have dominated his good side as much.

I think the reason Anakin will end up replacing him as apprentice is because Sidious knows Dooku isn't fully behind him.

maddog62

09-27-2002, 01:08 AM

There are 19 other fallen Jedi or so callled left the order that are not being called sith or even Sith. The Lost 20 will be found on the DVD.

Darth Vegas

09-27-2002, 05:27 AM

That didn't make alot of sense maddog62. ???

justafan

09-27-2002, 07:02 AM

Yoda senses the Dark side in Dooku, but yet doesn't have a clue about Palpatine?

Don't think so.

We are loosing continuity. We can't apply skills in a context that works for us, then remove them when the context doesn't work for us. Either Yoda can sense the Dark side, or he can't. He either knows about Dooku and Palpy, or he doesn't. He can't sense one and not the other.

Maddog, I disagree that Maul was simply an expendable tool. If the coward Dooku just runs from a fight, why not send him to Tatooine and Naboo? Maul's death didn't need to happen, as the Jedi were aware of the Sith from the first fight on Tattoine. (Unless, of course, dispatching Qui Gon was needed to eliminate some loose ends, which, some of you, may enjoy. I don't think that's the case, but that is yet to be debated). Dooku could have killed Qui Gon just the same. No, Maul was chosen for a reason, Dooku was not.

If your argument that Dooku is Sith, from being called Lord Tyrannus, then I say my arguement that Yoda would have said something is even more valid. They've been looking for TEN YEARS for the Sith. Now they've found a fallen Jedi, whose history and leaving fit the pattern, yet nothing comes of their meeting?

I still don't get it...can you explaine your POV from a different POV, ANYONE, 'cause I simply don't get it. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif

Darth Vegas

09-27-2002, 07:29 AM

Yoda knows that Dooku joined the Dark Side because Dooku used force lightning, and because Dooku dueled both him and the other two Jedi. Yoda does not know that Dooku is a Sith Lord, and he has no clue about Palpatine. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Mauls death was a device GL used so that the Jedi found out about the Sith, and if he hadn't died, Obi-Wan would have, there was no way around it, plus IMO Darth Maul was not really all that good of a character, and GL himself said (not direct quote, so don't get your panties in a bunch) that he was always meant to die, and that he didn't want a scary looking Sith in AOTC, but Dooku's character, which as an old gentlemen, fit the part much better.

There is no argument that Dooku is a Sith he is a Sith, in fact, in the orginal script Jango told Obi-Wan the name Darth Tyrannus, not just Tyrannus, and that was filmed and hopefully will be put back in the film for the dvd, and he calls Sidious Master. and several of the products of Count Dooku that have come out say Dart Tyrannus, if he wasn't Darth Tyrannus, they would not have put that name on them.

If you're gonna argue that Dooku isn't a true Sith, then I'm gonna have to argue that Vader isn't a true Sith either, since he also had intentions to deystrpy his Master. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif

justafan

09-27-2002, 09:27 AM

I'll conceed that on paper, Dooku is a Sith. I still don't see it in practice, only a Dark Jedi, but still will conceed.

But I do want to clarify--are you saying that Yoda knows about Dooku's Dark side by Dooku's actions only, or does he sense the Dark side in him?

Darth Vegas

09-27-2002, 09:35 AM

Well it's blantantly obvious, a Jedi would not face another Jedi unless he had been tempted to the Dark Side, so both I say Yoda knows it for both reasons.

Yoda does say: "Powerful you have become Dooku, the Dark Side I sense in you." style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif

Darth Vegas

09-27-2002, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 27 2002, 04:27 AM
I'll conceed that on paper, Dooku is a Sith. I still don't see it in practice, only a Dark Jedi, but still will conceed.

What do you mean you do not see it in practice?

The Red Lightsaber and the force lightning, and the name Darth Tyrannus don't ring a bell? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

In your mind, what had to be seen in order for Dooku to be a true Sith I ask you? The title "Dark Jedi" doesn't hold any watre, because Dooku was no longer a Jedi in any form, because he had abandoned the Jedi Order, thus he was no longer a Jedi.

He did the exact same things that Vader did in ESB, throwing objects, trying to turn a Jedi.

There really is no argument here, Dooku is a Sith Lord. All I see is a slight misunderstanding.

Like I said before, the fact that he wanted to deystroy Sidious, if he really did, does not make him any less a Sith, but rather more evil, because in doing so he would have become the Sith Master, which is what he wanted: more power. Vader wanted to deystroy the Emporer for the exact same purpose: "Jion me and together we will rule the galaxy as father and son." Vader and Dooku's intention were exactly the same, and I don't think it's too far of a stretch to think that Dooku may try to do just that in episode 3, only he'll die in the process.

justafan

09-27-2002, 10:05 AM

Don't trust your eyes, they can deceive you. Just because Dooku acts like a Sith, and uses the same things a Sith uses, doesn't make him a Sith. If Yoda did sense the Dark side, why would he not determine if Dooku was a Sith, since they have been looking for so long?

Yes, Dark Jedi was not a correct name. Thanks for clarifying. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/satisfied.gif

For Dooku to be a true Sith, in my mind, this is what I would have needed to see/hear:

I would have seen him with his master, as we did in TPM.

Yoda would have said something about the mystery of the Sith being one step closer to being solved. They knew that at least one was running around after Maul's death. Yoda made the point of mentioning the Clone wars. The rise of the Sith is just as important IMO.

He would have tried to turn Anakin, just as he tried to turn Obi Wan.

Not needed to be seen, but other thoughts: He's too old. An apprentice is not an equal, but a learner. How is a true, long time Jedi going to learn anymore about the Force? I know there is stuff about the Dark side, but he had already left the Jedi (the Light side).

Obi Wan speaks to Master Yoda, that doesn't make Yoda his master, it is simply out of respect. Just because Dooku says Master, doesn't mean he's an apprentice.

And I agree, wanting to destroy Siduous is not a weakness. But, Dooku's intentions don't stem from the Sith point of view. He tried to destroy Palpatine politically, during his discussion with Obi Wan. He claims he went to the Jedi Council with that and other information. He speaks not of destiny, as Vader did. I think Dooku is trying to set himself up for a political toppling of Palpatine, not a Sith overthrow of Siduous.

Darth Vegas

09-27-2002, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 27 2002, 05:05 AM
For Dooku to be a true Sith, in my mind, this is what I would have needed to see/hear:

I would have seen him with his master, as we did in TPM.

We did see Dooku with his Master, at the end of the movie.

"The Force is with us Master Sidious."

"Welcome home Lord Tyrannus, you have done well."

"I bring good news to you m'lord, the war has begun."

"Excellent everything is proceeding as I have planned."

Does that clear it up for you? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/satisfied.gif

justafan

09-27-2002, 10:31 AM

I don't recall that conversation, but trust your wisdom and memory style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif .

I find nothing that my feeble mind can create to dispute it now. (I still reserve the right to say "I told you so" if it is needed in 2005).

Why didn't you just quote that about 30 logs ago, and saved me all this confusion! :look:

Thanks!

Darth Vegas

09-27-2002, 10:36 AM

It's at the end of the movie right after Dooku escapes Geonosis and lands on Coruscant.\

Didn't think to post this before, sorry!!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/satisfied.gif

maddog62

09-27-2002, 10:45 AM

TK 007, I will take this time to be tagged in buddy. 1st of all Justafan, Dooku/Tyrannis is a Sith because he uses Sith Lightning, the name, and he helps start the most pivotal War in History purposely to put a Sith in total control of the Universe. You say Dooku is not a true sith because he may have a plot to kill Sidious and take over. That FACT would make him more of a SITH then Maul or even Vader. It is a FACT that the Destruction of the Sith was cause by brutal infighting (see TPM Novel), It is entirely in the SITH's nature to try and destroy his Master to become #1. this is why we have the TWO SITH RULE. Maul is a tool and could never help Sidious politically Maul has no HOOK UPS, no respect politically, he stands out like a sour thumb, and could not move through the Jedi Tempal without detection. As for Yoda sensing the Darkside. He only senses the darkside because Dooku is letting out all kinds of Darkside energy while committing Darkside acts while fighting OW/AS. I think you believe that there is no other problems going on in the Galaxy and everything revolve around the Sith but that is not the case. Why would they need 10,000 jedi nights if the only darkside energy was being released by the only 2 sith in the Galaxy. Does this make sense to you?

justafan

09-27-2002, 11:06 AM

If I created the assumption that wanting to over throw the master was not a Sith trait, that was not my intent. I think it is central to the Sith survival. I am sorry if my rantings made you think that is what I thought.

But, again, and this was beat to death before, I still argue that regardless what the person looks like, their Dark presense would have been sensed by the Jedi. Are you saying that no Dark side is present (or noticed)unless it is let out? Now, that would make sense to me.

What, then, for the sake of argument style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sly.gif do the other Jedi do across the galaxy?

maddog62

09-27-2002, 11:09 AM

Negative I think the Sith have come up with a way to disguise them selfs. It is the way of the Sith its there strategy.

Darth Vegas

09-27-2002, 11:17 AM

I would think so Maddog, how else would Sidious/Sifo Dyas be able to sit right in front of the Jedi like he did in AOTC, but the Jedi still couldn't get the connection between him and Palpatine.

As you said, Darth Maul sticks out like a sour thumb.

justafan

09-27-2002, 11:24 AM

Ok, I appreciate the stab at Siduous/SD style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

If the Sith are then hiding themselves, are we saying it is a practiced deception, or simply part of the Dark side?

Someone had mentioned the shape shifter needing time to rest--do the Sith then need the same if the are actively shielding themselves? If so, does Palpatine let down his hair when he is not around the Jedi, or does he not let his Dark side be sensed at all?

Or, if it is the nature of the Dark side to remain hidden, what is the reason for the cave at Dagobah being so readily recognized by Yoda and Luke? Is this manifestation a different form of Dark side?

Darth Vegas

09-27-2002, 12:06 PM

It was no stab, it's the truth. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

The cave is not a living thing and probably has nothing to do with the Sith.

borgmatrix

09-27-2002, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 27 2002, 02:06 PM
But, again, and this was beat to death before, I still argue that regardless what the person looks like, their Dark presense would have been sensed by the Jedi. Are you saying that no Dark side is present (or noticed)unless it is let out? Now, that would make sense to me.
Palpatine won't be using the Force while in the Senate or around the Jedi, so I would say that's why he's not detected. Consider Luke. He had great Force potential from the moment he was born, right? But it's not until the time of the OT that the Emperor and Vader feel "a disturbance in the Force." It's because at that point in time, Luke began to use the Force, and so his presence was felt.

At the end of AOTC, Dooku was using the Force to battle Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda, so it wouldn't have been difficult to detect his Dark Side presence.

Mann

09-27-2002, 05:37 PM

Yida has a different perception on the force. He can see throught people, and see what they are hiding. He says he's been watching Luke for his entire life, because he tuned into the force and found him. You have to have a high midiclorian count to be detected. This is why Palpatine is not Sidious, Yoda could have seen that he can't get through to him.

borgmatrix

09-27-2002, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by Mann@Sep 27 2002, 08:37 PM
Yida has a different perception on the force. He can see throught people, and see what they are hiding. He says he's been watching Luke for his entire life, because he tuned into the force and found him. You have to have a high midiclorian count to be detected. This is why Palpatine is not Sidious, Yoda could have seen that he can't get through to him.
Where are you getting all this from?

maddog62

09-28-2002, 02:50 AM

Mann are you for real or are you making this up? Don't answer I was just being sarcastic.

DblDwn

09-28-2002, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by Mann@Sep 27 2002, 08:37 PM
This is why Palpatine is not Sidious
Wait a tick...........

Is it just me, or has someone else finally agreed with me that Sidous IS NOT Palpatine?

Darth Vegas

09-28-2002, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Mann@Sep 27 2002, 12:37 PM
Yida has a different perception on the force. He can see throught people, and see what they are hiding. He says he's been watching Luke for his entire life, because he tuned into the force and found him.
When Yoda style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/y.gif said "This one here a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away to the future to the horizen.............yada yada, he was referring to Obi-Wan and he was talking to Luke, not the other way around. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Darth Vegas

09-28-2002, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Sep 27 2002, 11:00 AM
Palpatine won't be using the Force while in the Senate or around the Jedi, so I would say that's why he's not detected. Consider Luke. He had great Force potential from the moment he was born, right? But it's not until the time of the OT that the Emperor and Vader feel "a disturbance in the Force." It's because at that point in time, Luke began to use the Force, and so his presence was felt.

Oh really? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

Well explain to me why Obi-Wan had a "bad feeling about this" when the Sith were no where to be found?

Or how Vader felt Obi-Wans presence though at the time Obi-Wan was not using the force?

Or how about explaining why Vader sensed Luke on Endor, though at the time he was not using his force powers?

It's more like Palps' did not consider Luke a threat until after Luke had a little training under Obi-Wan, then he felt that he had to do something about him.

borgmatrix

09-28-2002, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 28 2002, 10:53 AM
Well explain to me why Obi-Wan had a "bad feeling about this" when the Sith were no where to be found?
Han Solo has had "bad feelings" about things and he can't sense the Force.

Or how Vader felt Obi-Wans presence though at the time Obi-Wan was not using the force?

I'm not sure Obi-wan was trying to hide his presence. I think he wanted to face Vader so as to allow Luke and the others to escape. I could be wrong.

Or how about explaining why Vader sensed Luke on Endor, though at the time he was not using his force powers?

Because Luke's his son. The Emperor never sensed him.

DblDwn

09-28-2002, 01:38 PM

For starters Bond, I would be willing to bet that Yoda was talking about Luke in ESB. Based simply on the fact that, when you chose to use yada yada yada, Yoda continues to say, "Never his mind on where he was, mm, what he was doing." It is while says this that he begins to poke Luke with his cane. That leads me to believe that he is talking about Luke. He is making a point about how Luke looks too much to the future at the "expense of the moment." Sounds a bit familiar doesn't it?

Also, this is what I believe regarding senses people through the Force:

In order to sense someone through the Force they must first have used the Force and once you sense someone for the first time, you 'remember their scent'. That being said I will take a crack at your "How comes" Bond

1) Obi-Wan's saying that he has a "bad feeling" about anything doesn't necessarily mean that he is relating his feeling to the Sith. For all we know he had a "bad feeling" about the weather forecast. My point being, it could be anything.

2) As I said above Vader already knew Obi-Wan's presense and, therefore, Obi-Wan didn't need to be using the Force in order to be 'felt'.

3) Same as above. Vader knew what Luke's presense was and that is all that it took. But, if you want to be technical on this one, you can say that when they are on the shuttle waiting for landing clearance and Luke states that, "Vader's on that ship", then at that point he was using the Force to detect Vader and Vader was using the Force to detect him.

4) As far as the original idea about the Emperor feeling the "disturbance in the Force" I agree with Borg. It wasn't until Luke began using his Force powers that his presense could be detected. That is also something that kept him safe on Tattooine all those years. He didn't know that he had the Force so he couldn't use it. Therefore he couldn't be 'felt' by the Emperor or Vader. The reason that Yoda can follow Luke's actions from afar (Dagobah to Tattooine) is that I assume he will encounter Baby Luke in Episode III and that will give him a previous knowledge into Luke's presense. Yoda will be able to meditate through the Force and sense Luke's actions while growing up.

Darth Vegas

09-28-2002, 03:59 PM

No Dbldwn Yoda was talking to Luke when he said that, you talk about other people being naive. All you have to do is watch the movie to realize that Yoda was indeed talking to Luke about Obi-Wan when he said that, besides the fact that it is confirmed in the script and novel, and radio dramas.

Yoda reference was referring to Obi-Wan in his younger days, when he concentrated more on the unifying force (the future) rather than the living force, it was confirmed by GL, and also I believe on Obi-Wans databank on the official site, but I may be wrong about that.

Anyway Yoda was talking to Luke.

BorgMatrix Han did have his "bad fellings", but Obi-Wan specifically said he felt something "elsewhere, elusive", something that he felt through the force.

A person does not have to be using the force, in order for another force sensitive person to sense him.

borgmatrix

09-28-2002, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 28 2002, 06:59 PM
A person does not have to be using the force, in order for another force sensitive person to sense him.
But the fact that the Jedi couldn't sense Palpatine seems to indicate otherwise.

Darth Vegas

09-28-2002, 04:34 PM

No because Palpatine was most likely using the Force to cloud their "vision".

justafan

09-29-2002, 09:13 AM

I can't believe this, but I'm with DblDwn on this one. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hehe.gif

Luke was not sensed from a distance, as Anakin was not. It wasn't until they came in contact with someone else who used the Force that their presence was discovered.

Oh, wait. If that is the case, and none of the Jedi had ever been near Siduous to remember his scent, then they wouldn't be able to notice him right there in front of them. Of course, that would mean that Siduous was not SD, otherwise the Jedi would remember his scent.

Oh, wait again, Palpatine uses the Force to cloud his scent. But wouldn't that use of the Force cause a disturbance that would be picked up on by the other Jedi?

Oh, wait again again, his Dark force is shadowed by all the Light force around him, or is not picked up because he isn't using it all the time. But then how would Luke sense Vader from the shuttle when Vader is just there, not using the Force (as far as we know)?

Oh, wait again again again, Palpatine/Siduous is an exception to the Force rules, isn't he? Just kidding. Had to get that jab in.

But, there still is a hole in the theory--either the Force can be detected, once you remember a scent, or it can't. Unless the theory is malarky....

Darth Vegas

09-29-2002, 09:41 AM

The theory is malarky. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Darth Vegas

09-29-2002, 09:46 AM

Anyway, isn't this thread supposed to be about "Who erased Kamino from the Jedi archives?"

How about we get back on topic? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif

DblDwn

09-30-2002, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 29 2002, 05:46 AM
How about we get back on topic?
Easy on the throttle there turbo. We're having a nice little discussion about other things, which is permitted as long as we do not completely change the topic of the thread from within.

So settle down, switch to decaf, and read some more of this "malarky" as it has been labeled.

Martini

09-30-2002, 01:21 PM

bond why are you always the first person here to say "get back to the topic"? u act like a Mod but you arent. so let us finish this topic.

i agree with you justafan, that whole crap about knowing that anakin was on tatooine is false. no one knew, not even the jedis throughout the galaxy. and the siths didnt know about him either cause anakin didnt have any dark side in him when he first lived on tatooine. he first gained some of it when he left.

Darth Vegas

09-30-2002, 01:29 PM

I disagree, I think Sidious is the one that put Anakin on Tatooine in the first place.

If you want to discuss these little bunny trails, go to the other threads dedicated to those topics.

Martini

09-30-2002, 01:42 PM

why would he ever wanna put him on tatooine?! why wouldnt he just keep him and train him from day one? you're making no sense bond

Darth Vegas

09-30-2002, 01:54 PM

Why put him on Tatooine?

Because in doing so he set forth Anakin's path to the Dark Side. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

He wouldn't have kept him and trained him from day one because he was to busy with his other apprentice at the time, and with his plans to take over the universe. He didn't have time to train him.

Martini

09-30-2002, 02:04 PM

ehhhhhhhhh, thats a weak excuse. can someone back me up on this one? im just not buying the fact that anakin was placed there. i think darth sidious would have wanted to train him in the dark side from day one.

also, no one else is going to buy this. least the normal movie-goer. cause if we see another "no, i am your father" line in EP3, everyone is just gonna laugh and say "ohhhh please not again!".

plus even Lucas said that anakin is suppose to be the chosen one. kind of like a jesus. he isnt suppose to have a father. that way, it is actually episode 1.....so theres nothing before this. NOTHING! we wont see EP3 and say "gee i wonder how sidious got anakin there and such and such"

Darth Vegas

09-30-2002, 02:11 PM

That is not weak.

Sidious trained Maul from birth, if Sidious did find Anakin when he was a baby, it was while Darth Maul was still in training, he was too busy with him as I said, and his plans to take over the galaxy.

Lucas himself said that after Mauls death, Sidious could not afford the time to train a new apprentice.

I never said anything about Sidious being the father, once again beoing presumptuos Martini.

Martini

09-30-2002, 02:17 PM

lighten up bond..........ur so touchy my friend

Darth Vegas

09-30-2002, 02:26 PM

If I'm not mistaken, I typed that I did not say it. Henceforth there is no emotion. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Martini

09-30-2002, 02:29 PM

get back to the topic bond

Darth Vegas

09-30-2002, 02:37 PM

Speak for yourself.

borgmatrix

09-30-2002, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 30 2002, 05:11 PM
Sidious trained Maul from birth, if Sidious did find Anakin when he was a baby, it was while Darth Maul was still in training, he was too busy with him as I said, and his plans to take over the galaxy.
If Sidious is so busy, how does he have time to search for babies? Especially, since he already has an apprentice.

Darth Vegas

09-30-2002, 02:59 PM

I never said he searched for the baby.

More like he came upon him by chance.

DblDwn

09-30-2002, 03:21 PM

I agree with Martini in that there is no way that Sidious was behind Anakin's conception, nor was he behind Anakin being 'stashed' on Tattooine.

The sad thing is that, even though I completely disagree with Bond, I am going to make a point in his favor only because he has yet to use this as part of his argument:

IF, and I repeat IF, Sidious was behind Anakin being on Tattooine it would be safe to conclude that the reason would be so that the Jedi do not detect him when he is an infant and he cannot be trained as a Jedi. That would leave him 'stored' away on a distant planet to grow completely attached to his mother so that one day he could be taken away from her and then she could be killed and then he would have much anger and hate and would inevitably become Sidious' apprentice.

Sort of like how it happens. Once again I completely disagree with everything that I have suggested as far as a conspiracy into Anakin's conception and original location. The only reason I said anything was hopefully silence Bond on the subject because he did not even think to put anything like this.

Aren't we supposed to be back on topic anyway Bond?

justafan

09-30-2002, 03:59 PM

So let me get this straight,

whenever Palp/Sids abilities are questioned, he automatically has the most superest and bestest Force powers ever? That's what it seems like, in any thread and or discussion regarding his abilites. Getting old....

If the collective "light" of the Jedi can shadow Sid, it would also amplify each other. Therefore, why wouldn't Yoda, highest Mid count other than Anakin, be able to sense Anakin? To my knowledge (which is limited, agreed) there was no need for Palp/Sid to be out at Tatooine. Then how did he stumble across something the Jedi couldn't sense?

Also, the argument that Palps using the force to cloud his using the force from being discovered is drivel. It contradicts itself--I turn the light on to provide light power to run the light. No way.

(BTW, I think this discussion is imperative to who erased the archives. The Sid/Pap/SD triage is vital to the direction of and elimination of suspects in our investigation).

Martini

09-30-2002, 04:10 PM

dooku erased the archives style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

borgmatrix

09-30-2002, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by justafan@Sep 30 2002, 06:59 PM
whenever Palp/Sids abilities are questioned, he automatically has the most superest and bestest Force powers ever? That's what it seems like, in any thread and or discussion regarding his abilites. Getting old....
Yeah, seriously.

borgmatrix

09-30-2002, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by DblDwn@Sep 30 2002, 06:21 PM
Aren't we supposed to be back on topic anyway Bond?
Yeah, that's what I thought.

Darth Vegas

10-01-2002, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by DblDwn@Sep 30 2002, 10:21 AM
Sort of like how it happens. Once again I completely disagree with everything that I have suggested as far as a conspiracy into Anakin's conception and original location. The only reason I said anything was hopefully silence Bond on the subject because he did not even think to put anything like this.

Wrongo Dbldwn, I did not include that in my argument, because I thought you guys could read between the lines, and also because I'm not completely sure that Sidious didn't want a Jedi to find and train Anakin, who inevitably would fall to the Dark Side.

Again I mentioned nothing in my theory about Sidious having anything to do with Anakin's conception, only that he came upon the child by "chance". style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

Anakin is the chosen one, and he was conceived by the midi-chlorians, there is no disputing that.

But on the topic, you can be certain that Dooku erased the information about Kamino from the archives

DblDwn

10-02-2002, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Agent Bond A.KA. TK-007@Sep 30 2002, 09:04 PM
Wrongo Dbldwn, I did not include that in my argument, because I thought you guys could read between the lines

Don't you know by now that 80-85% of the people on this site are under the age of 18. Most of these people are not going to be able to read between the lines, no offense to anyone, but it is the truth.

Cyclonus

10-15-2002, 08:04 AM

If Sidious had been Sifo-Dyas, wouldn't the jedi have recognized that their Supreme Chancellor is a jedi who was killed ten years ago?</span>[/quote]
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif Remember what Yoda says: 'the darkside clouds everything'. They couldn't see it because of the tricks from palpy

borgmatrix

10-15-2002, 11:22 AM

If Sidious had been Sifo-Dyas, wouldn't the jedi have recognized that their Supreme Chancellor is a jedi who was killed ten years ago?</span>
style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eh.gif Remember what Yoda says: 'the darkside clouds everything'. They couldn't see it because of the tricks from palpy[/quote]
The Dark Side doesn't cloud natural eyesight. If Palpatine's capable of making the Jedi see him differently from how he really looks, then he could just as easily make Yoda look like Sidious or Mace look like another Sith and have the Jedi kill one another.

The Dark Side clouds the Force not peoples eyes.

StarWarsFan1

10-15-2002, 01:40 PM

It all plays into dooku hans, he went from jedi-sith. but what the jedi don't know is if he his the master or the app.

conron_montyn23

10-15-2002, 07:11 PM

oookay then...
its obvious, master diaz erased it from the archives, under order of sidious, diaz could also be qui-gon, cause they died aroun the same time.

justafan

10-17-2002, 01:18 PM

Ok, been re-reading this thread, and have another thought.

Normally Agent Bond and I are at opposite ends, but I do think his notion that somehow Uncle Palpy was simply letting the Jedi do the training for Anankin has merit. What I can't place, though, is how Palpy knew about Anakin. Perhaps Palpy anticipated the location of the Chosen One (not knowing exactly who it was), and assumed he would be able to rub shoulders with this individual during the Jedi training. If Palpy/Sid can see some of the future, he would know that he (Palpy) would be in a political power position, which would easily allow interaction with the Jedi. That way, he would not have to bother himself with apprentice training while focusing on his political career. We see a similar move by adopting Dooku as an apprentice (I've been beaten into adopting the notion that Dooku is indeed Sith, I know).

To bring this to topic style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif by allowing the Jedi to discover and prep the Chosen One, Palpy could then concentrate on setting the stage for other items, ie, arranging for the deletion from the archives.

I'm not saying that Palpy was creating or changing destiny, only using it to his advantage.