Why are all Imperial Generals human?

[Solo]

Have you thought about this? Remember ANH. When Vader enters the meeting, all generals are human. On Empire Strikes Back, whenever we see an officier, he is human. Same goes for Return of the Jedi. When Vader visits second Death Star, responsible officer is again human.

This can not be a technical problem, because Lucas did put many alien species in these movies. Even one alien general, sitting silently or doing something which did not require talking would have been quite nice I think. What do you think?

[jayce76]

I think the Empire is raciest . . . .

[Zedekk]

Grand Admiral Thrawn should have made an appearance in one of the OT possible RotJ at the battle of Endor and seen to make an escape.

[Ripley]

Have you thought about this? Remember ANH. When Vader enters the meeting, all generals are human. On Empire Strikes Back, whenever we see an officier, he is human. Same goes for Return of the Jedi. When Vader visits second Death Star, responsible officer is again human.

This can not be a technical problem, because Lucas did put many alien species in these movies. Even one alien general, sitting silently or doing something which did not require talking would have been quite nice I think. What do you think?
Because Lucas is using visual storytelling. Seeing all white males brings connotations of various brutal empires from history.

[James]

Didn't the Empire have a discrimination against non-humans policy? That would explain it.

[TK423]

Yes they did.

I know a lot of people aren't big on the EU, so if you don't like it, just ignore this I guess.

But the Empire was extremely biast against non-humans. The fact that Thrawn had climbed as high as he did in the Imperial chain of command was causing an uproar long before he reached the rank of Grand Admiral.

[JMAS]

The Emperor (and hence the Imperial military) was biased against not only non-human species, but also women. Notice there are no female officers or even crewmen in Imperial service.

Even Admiral Daala wasn't promoted to that rank by normal chain of command. Grand Moff Tarkin secretly promoted her and placed her in command of the Maw Installation.

[Konig15]

Don't you think the lack of women is more tied to the perception of gender roles in the late seventies and early eighties? Feminists were clamoring for a LOT of things, but certainly not for the "right" to serve frontline combat roles. Do I smell hypocracy...I think I do....:rolleyes:

But more than that Lucas based his characters on famous archetype. Liea can be a warrior because she's a Princess. That archetype goes back to the Amazon Queens of the Trojan War cycle.

Excuse me for going David Brin for a second, but the idea of women, totally integrated into modern style militaries is out of the archetype and fundementally a threat to a very patriarchal film about a very patriarchal galaxy. How many women soldiers, not SpecOps, not warriors, but soldiers, among the Rebels at Hoth?

Having women soldiers TRULY integrated into the armed forces (not meremly being 15% of soldiers in th US Armed Forces, all in non-combat roles) requires a fundemental shift in the preception of what a woman's place is in society, a shift most conservatives and many feminists would not want. IMOHO, this requires the embracing of "Amazonian Feminism" which says that women are fundementally no different men and men and women can do anything the other can except pee uright and impregnate (women) and give birth and nurse (men). It is somewhat of an untrue position because on agragate, women are significantly weaker than men and have less endurance. But we're getting to the point that that can be corrected via genetic engineering.

Women equal to men in the ranks and on te battlefield goes against the entire paradigmn of Western, if not all Civilization, in which women and children are protected and men like me are here to knock up females to reproduce the spieces and go out and die for the cause. This is why Heinlein absolutely refused to have women in the Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers, he though women in infantry combat was something only a depraved German or Russian would do, not a civilized Anglo-American culture like the Terran Federation.

The role of women is never seriously dealt with in the OT, the PT, or the EU. The fact is that even if women, like Leia or Padme can fight, it's only to aid in their rescue and thus they do not alter the patriarchal paradigmn. Only mara Jade can kick ass, and she's merely SpecOps (Emperor's Hand) and is thus an exception that doesn't challenge the rule. Only Admiral Dondonna is KOTR is an exception, but she's a very minor character.

I say this knowing I LIKE Patriarchy. In my character description thread, I tried to analyse how women in combat would alter persection, expectations, even beauty standards. In the Fanfic I'm trying to flesh out, women in combat is actually the TRIUMPH of Patriarchy because the women are, to our thinking, defeminized. They are spiting, swearing, macho asskickers. And I find that much more attractive than the damsel in distress. But then again I'm a freak. :eek:

[Cydon]

"The role of women is never seriously dealt with in the OT, the PT, or the EU."

Ummm... Jaina Solo, Mara Jade Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo.

[Konig15]

I said almong the SOLDIERY. Women in special forces units, from Dahmoney Amazons to Women snipers in the wartime Red Army and Leto II Fishspeakers make no difference in terms of how society is organized. They never have. Haveing women occupying near half of the pilots, stormtroopers, and officer corps, WILL have that effect. Women in special units are almost always seen as either a wartime neccessity or elite units that do not effect society as a whole due to their selectivity and small numbers. If every other Stormtrooper across the Galaxy is a woman, society's going to react differently at least, and more likely must BE different in the first place. So what if there are female Jedi? Female grunts are a totally different, and much more interesting issue, that is not really within the perview of the SW films.

[Darth Massacrus]

There is a reason why Imperial Generals are human. The same applies to Admirals, officers, Politicians, Moffs, and other military. Though I want it to be CRYSTAL CLEAR that Palpatine has NEVER been shown to be a bigot, his many advisors and cronies, especially the most powerful of them(Sate Pestage) are clearly shown to be bigots. If you you truly wish to see how bad it was with Pestage, just read the trade paperback XWING: Mandatory Retirement. Pestages behavior to aliens is truly appalling. And this was the Imperial Grand Vizier here, the man who was essentially running the day to day functions of the Empire by Hoth. That alone explains a LOT. Other factors include the fact that humans are the most numerous race/species in the galaxy, the original Stormtrooper and military templates were human, many of Palpatines top officials (Isard, Tarkin, Dangor, COMPNOR, ect) were bigots as well. But Palpatine himself was not bigoted. Thrawn, Hethrir, Sly Moore, Ammeda, Hissa, numerous Dark Side Adepts and others prove that Palpatine valued loyalty and talent from aliens and non-humans very much. Those are just the more plausible theories I can think of. Massacrus out.

[EmperorPalpatine]

The emperor don't really like non-humans and the non-humans suffered the most during the new order. Their world were plundered and attacked. But Grand Admiral Thrawn become the Grand Admiral because he gain lots of world at the unknown region of the galaxy.

[Braden Dar]

The Empire, the New Order, had a strong opinion on what the roles of any "non-humans" were. Palpatine DID NOT like those that were not human. So almost all of the Imperial military was composed of humans. And predominantly male, as well.
It is all very straightforward and spelled out in the visual stortytelling (a la Ripley) for all of us to see. Lucas was telling us how evil these things are, and we should avoid being like that.
But there are some things that are more right about that manner of thinking. I wouldn't allow my wife or my mom to be in service to the military. They are supposed to be "caretakers" as persona's go, while we guys are supposed to be the fighters that do everything to defend them and our homes. Not to say that women can't fight. Just that we men prefer to protect them than have them protect us.
Its not chauvinism, its inheirant in our essence.

[Konig15]

The Empire, the New Order, had a strong opinion on what the roles of any "non-humans" were. Palpatine DID NOT like those that were not human. So almost all of the Imperial military was composed of humans. And predominantly male, as well.
It is all very straightforward and spelled out in the visual stortytelling (a la Ripley) for all of us to see. Lucas was telling us how evil these things are, and we should avoid being like that.
But there are some things that are more right about that manner of thinking. I wouldn't allow my wife or my mom to be in service to the military. They are supposed to be "caretakers" as persona's go, while we guys are supposed to be the fighters that do everything to defend them and our homes. Not to say that women can't fight. Just that we men prefer to protect them than have them protect us.
Its not chauvinism, its inheirant in our essence.

I understand your point Dar, but I have to disagree. In a monogamous society, man are every bit as important to the reproductive process as women, because women who have no men to marry do not reproduce. Even in Sweden where the marriage rate is 30-40% almost all of the children produced in that society are being produced by the married people. The Russians suffered such huge loses after the second world war that their birth rate collapsed and nver recovered, though this was largely covered by the population explosion among the Muslims in the USSR. If they had put men and women in combat equally, this dispairity would never have happend, and though the post-war birth rate would have still suffered, but not nearly as much. Men are capable of raising kids and women can fight and I think that all other things aside, we should not tell men they have to work and fight and raise the kids while women need only raise the kids with an option to work and realease from fighting. Pregnancy is a pain in the ass, but it's not debilitating enough to make up the differnce.

Now, I'm generally oposed to women in peacetime armies: They are on agragate weaker and have less endurance than men and then there's the fraternization aspect which even today isn't pretty. In a World War situation, they are ideal, espeically if you start sending 45 year old men and 15 year old boys to the front. Young Women (20-35) can certainly fight better than them.

[jayce76]

A little clue . . . .THE EMPIRE IS THE NAZIS!!!!!!!!

[techno-union]

Probably the same reason that all the Rebels are human in ANH & ESB.

[MandalorianJF]

It's not just the generals is the howl empire (i think). they just like humans better that anyone else.

[Zedekk]

:welcome: ^ Mando.JF

[MandalorianJF]

:welcome: ^ Mando.JF

Thanks

[Solo]

Well, women are a part of life and they will certainly be in the army. If you look at the past, you will see many civilisations where women and men hunted and fought side by side. They also took care of their children and their property side by side.This was mainly before Christ. Some civilisations such as Turks did not accept Christianity and continued this life style even longer. However their life style changed after they accepted Islam.

At the beginning I was thinking, it was only a technical problem. I mean I thought Lucas just didn't have the finance or technical back-up to have different species during ANH. Now I've seen many different ideas. I back up the idea of Nazis. The way imperial generals dressed, uniforms of soldiers and stromtroopers all look like Nazis. Even the foundation of Imperial Army looks like Nazis.

[nefertiti]

So....you think that the lack of non-human/women in high ranking positions within the "films" (with few exceptions) is more because of the writer and his own views/experience than a particular bias. That's reasonable.

[Ripley]

Well, women are a part of life and they will certainly be in the army. If you look at the past, you will see many civilisations where women and men hunted and fought side by side. They also took care of their children and their property side by side.This was mainly before Christ. Some civilisations such as Turks did not accept Christianity and continued this life style even longer. However their life style changed after they accepted Islam.

At the beginning I was thinking, it was only a technical problem. I mean I thought Lucas just didn't have the finance or technical back-up to have different species during ANH. Now I've seen many different ideas. I back up the idea of Nazis. The way imperial generals dressed, uniforms of soldiers and stromtroopers all look like Nazis. Even the foundation of Imperial Army looks like Nazis.

It's quite blatant. White men running around in Nazi-esque uniforms while speaking the queen's english and blowing up civilizations (Yavin IV has a heavy Amerindian feel to it). Lucas brought specters of empires such as British, the Spanish, the Amerindian treatment by the American government, etc. besides just the Nazis. That helps the timeless feel of the films.

[Clone Commander Adam]

The emperor don't really like non-humans and the non-humans suffered the most during the new order. Their world were plundered and attacked. But Grand Admiral Thrawn become the Grand Admiral because he gain lots of world at the unknown region of the galaxy.

(First post. Be nice.:D )

Yeah, from my small gathered knowledge, the Sith were supposedly very xenophobic to begin with. They were always human or near-human pre-Glactic Civil War. Palpatine, being a Sith, probably decided he wanted to ensure that the Empire he ruled kept the same racist veiws. Then again, it could be those "Real-Life" reason too...

And even though they weren't in the movies, there were women serving in the empire. (I.E. Mara Jade)

[Zedekk]

^:welcome: CCAdam

[Sarah-Leia]

Yep. Empire hates non-humans. You'll notice that it's only after Palpy died that all the non-human officers etc popping up - they were short on beings and accepted anybody, I suppose.

[csr74]

It's quite blatant. White men running around in Nazi-esque uniforms while speaking the queen's english and blowing up civilizations (Yavin IV has a heavy Amerindian feel to it). Lucas brought specters of empires such as British, the Spanish, the Amerindian treatment by the American government, etc. besides just the Nazis. That helps the timeless feel of the films.

I would go more for the Nazis idea...in fact even the caps resemble that of German woodkeepers (or are nearly the same). I think it´s the first resemblance and the clearest one (and the most "visual" one, if you know what i mean), you see all white officials clad in dark green-grey uniforms, and even black uniforms, it´s nearly unavoidable to think of the Nazis.

[Darth Massacrus]

Massacrus here. Could any of you please state a SW source that specifically states that Palpatine was a bigot/speciesist? I have NEVER seen a single one that says that the Emperor HIMSELF is xenophobic. Many do have characters stating thier belief that Palpatine was xenophobic, but they are all from the view of people who hated Palpatine (the rebels) or people who themselves did not care too much for aliens. And in no SW source is Palpatine shown to be intolerant. Unfortunately for the galaxy, Sate Pestage, Palpatines right hand man for decades, as well as the Imperial Grand Vizier in addition to being the head of the Empire after Endor and probably the only person Palpatine EVER trusted fully, WAS a confirmed bigot (just read xwing:Mandatory Retirement) and in his position of power certainly had the means and motive to institute Human High Culture along with COMPNOR and to discredit beings like Mas Amedda and Sly Moore. And because he was male, he might have had a bias against females as well. Also, other people close to Palpatine, such as Wilhuff Tarkin, who were quite powerful themselves, were anti-alien. But alas, Palpatine was not.

[Solo]

Actually what most people said is, Imperial army looked like the Nazi Army. I agree with them. However I do not think it is because of a racist emperor. I believe it was a simple decision made by GL to show imperial army as a force of evil. As GL wasn't in the movie, blame was directed to the Emperor.

[General Grievous]

yeah, but even though the majority of the navy was conformed by humans, many of the Imperial spies and the bounty hunters they hired were aliens... so I guess it can't be said Palpy was racist.. =O

[MandalorianJF]

OH yes and buy the way, I have read the Star Wars Boba Fett Crossfire novel and in it, the crew of the Republic Assault Ship were humans.

[Solo]

yeah, but even though the majority of the navy was conformed by humans, many of the Imperial spies and the bounty hunters they hired were aliens... so I guess it can't be said Palpy was racist.. =O

I do not think including Imperial spies and bounty hunters in this discussion is correct. An army is military power with strict discipline and army is always in front. However spies and bounty hunters are hired to do secret, most of the time dirty work. Therefore they are usually selected from outcasts and outlaws.

When a nation is victorious in a war, you only see army in celebrations. Spies are never shown or things they've done are never mentioned.

[Darth Massacrus]

Really: I can think of at least one major occurrance of a bounty hunter, near human, leading none other than the 501st legion into battle...

[Solo]

Really: I can think of at least one major occurrance of a bounty hunter, near human, leading none other than the 501st legion into battle...

I didn't say they do not take part in the battle. I only said that I am talking about the regular army. A regular army where soldiers and officiers have ranks and they can get promoted. I know spies and bounty hunters were working for Imperial Army. However I do not think they were nominated for the best soldier or officer of the month.

[MandalorianJF]

And it's not just that it's also the rebels.

[jayce76]

NO:tease:

[Balnazzar]

Humans are just so easy to manipulate with. So in SW as in the real world.
But I think the true reason are the clothes, those imperial officers suit so well in them,... Can you imagine a Wookie in such a dress???
Unfortunately the only colour grey goes with is identical to human skin.

[huttslime]

What about Thrawn?

[Darth Massacrus]

or the Procurator of Justice? or Sly Moore? many of the Dark Side Elite, the Inquisitorious, and others where not human...

[Zedekk]

yeah but thats sith. We're talkin' Imperial ranks here

[huttslime]

Grand Admiral Thrawn was teh 13th grand admiral of the Emperor.

thats not sith, thats empire

[Zedekk]

True but its also EU

[huttslime]

its still star wars

[Darth Massacrus]

exactly! And technically, since the Imperial Grand Vizier, Sate Pestage, is seen in ROTJ, any EU info on him counts as well. Like how HE is likely the architecht of Human High Culture, given his bigotry and 'influence'...

[Konig15]

Well guys, honestly, there's a question of why HUMANS predominate in any galaxy. Technically it's because of RW costs and keeping the audience engaged, but let's be honest, is it ever explained why Humans dominate the galaxy as they so clearly do?

There's actually a great article on stardestroyer.net theorizing about why Humans are the primary, nay exclusive bulk of the armed forces in the Imperial and Rebel militaries. The simplest answer is that Humans are the bulk, or at least plurality of the citizens of the Empire/Republic. Only having one spieces in the military could also ease a great deal of the logistics of patroling that vast space (no need for special foods, Yoda sized uniforms, medicines applicaable to a dozen species or more, etc.)

Gotta think of logistics, cause an army rolls on it's stomache, and when there's no chow, the army disipates. Naploeon coined that phrase, it's also why he commissioned a contest that gave us canned food (see, the French are good for something...J/K!:tease: ).

If anything though, I think the Empire is selectively recruiting specific humans (white, male, Core and probably middle to upper class) to aviod the headaches an 'inclusive' military force would have. I'm not saying Sate Petage didn't hate aliens, just that there are soldi reasons why one would wanna make the Imperial Forces as homogenous as possible.

[Darth Massacrus]

true, the majority species in the galaxy is Humanity. As for the military being mostly human, the origins of the military go back to one man, an human named Jango Fett. Granted, the man who recruited Fett, Dooku, was also speciesist...

[huttslime]

the humans werent the first species in SW, what about the rakatans (http://galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=13862), and the corellian stuff?

[huttslime]

Massacrus here. Could any of you please state a SW source that specifically states that Palpatine was a bigot/speciesist? I have NEVER seen a single one that says that the Emperor HIMSELF is xenophobic. Many do have characters stating thier belief that Palpatine was xenophobic, but they are all from the view of people who hated Palpatine (the rebels) or people who themselves did not care too much for aliens. And in no SW source is Palpatine shown to be intolerant. Unfortunately for the galaxy, Sate Pestage, Palpatines right hand man for decades, as well as the Imperial Grand Vizier in addition to being the head of the Empire after Endor and probably the only person Palpatine EVER trusted fully, WAS a confirmed bigot (just read xwing:Mandatory Retirement) and in his position of power certainly had the means and motive to institute Human High Culture along with COMPNOR and to discredit beings like Mas Amedda and Sly Moore. And because he was male, he might have had a bias against females as well. Also, other people close to Palpatine, such as Wilhuff Tarkin, who were quite powerful themselves, were anti-alien. But alas, Palpatine was not.

wasnt Palpatine from Naboo?

[Konig15]

Ya but the militaty in KOTOR I & II were almost entirely Human too. I think this is probably a tradition in the Republic; maybe other speices trust the Humans more than others to settle disputes?

[huttslime]

we are not talking about the republic here!

[Konig15]

True, but it does seem to be an inherited trait FROM the republic, like the Prussian officer corps in Nazi Germany held over from Weimar and Kaisereich days.

[huttslime]

are you german or something? (konig!)

[Darth Massacrus]

entirely possible, but many humans in the SW galaxy that were Sith in Kotor where speciesist. Plenty of dialog supports that. As for the Imperial Leadership, it wasnt entirely human, but in the movies, niether is the Rebellion...

[huttslime]

the sith controlled the sith species (thats were the name comes from)

[Darth Massacrus]

the Rakatans did invade Korriban, though...

[huttslime]

I guess they did...

there was a star map in one of the tombs right? naga sadow?

[Konig15]

No Huttslime, but of German heritage (we're talking Pennsylvannia Dutch here). I needed a Hotmail handle, so I picked one that sounded cool.

But the Sith as a speices were killed off by the Jedi in the Hyperspace War. A small remnant were killed off on Yavin IV by Nad Fardon, training to increase his darkside powers. The Sith ARE extinct even by KOTOR. It would take a dedicated effort to recreate the speices by another galactic power.

[Darth Massacrus]

Naga Sadows Tomb was built AROUND the ruins of the Star Map.

[huttslime]

you seem to know a lot about the sith era

[huttslime]

All imperial gens. are human, because it was too expensive to make so many cosutmes

probably...

that has to be at least part of the reason

[Konig15]

Well, I'm learing for an AU tale I'm writing where the Sith (now called Sithari) have been rebuilt, and Korriban terraformed into a lush world (this is background). It's one of those details, God is in the details so they say.

Darth here know the real name of the guy I'm refering to, but it escapes me now.

[Darth Massacrus]

lets just say I am blessed with an acute mind and memory, as well as an interest in Sith and Rakatan lore, and a vast EU collection ...

[Zedekk]

^ Translation "super geek"... and yes, I am jealous.

[Darth Massacrus]

no, translate, extremely lucky! The Force served me well!

[huttslime]

this doesnt seem to be about imperial generals anymore...