Palpatine Stronger Than Yoda?

[emperor_mai]

What do you think? I myself say: Yes, Palpatine is stronger than Yoda. Seeing as he won.

[Blizzard]

He didn't win. A good Jedi knows when to walk away from Sith with big heads.

[Tovor]

Bah. Yoda skampered away whimpering to go hang with the lizards, while Palps stayed at the party and got all the chicks. What is the score you say? :rolleyes:

[DblDwn]

He didn't win. A good Jedi knows when to walk away from Sith with big heads.

"You gotta know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
Know when to run.

You never count your midichlorians,
When you're battling in the Senate,
There'll be time enough for counting,
When living on Dagobah."

I need coffee...................

[Miasmo]

I say, at that point in time, in that situation, Sidious was more powerful. Yoda would have died if he had stayed to fight some more. As much as we love Yoda, he was physically weaker.

But strength is not everything, as we can see by the end of the saga.

[Ironsiderodger]

Was Sidious more powerful? Or did he simply have "the high ground" in that situation. I had seen something aluding to Yoda was perhaps weakened by the traumatic losses inflicted upon the Jedi, yet I still wonder if he had stayed and fought if he might have won, albeit in somewhat of a Bonhomme Richard vs HMS Serapis sense.

In any case, it seems Yoda thought he was overmatched, or missed an opportunity in a strategic sense that could not be rectified. In my ramblings I wonder if Yoda considered himself to be weaker; otherwise, why not just hunt down Sideous later?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

"You gotta know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
Know when to run.


Oh no.... You didn't just sing that.


:)

I would have to agree with Blizz and Ironside. I think Yoda knew it wasn't the Force's will for him to beat Palpatine yet. Because, after all, I believe this was the Force's way of changing the Jedi (among other things). I'm sure most of you will agree that the Jedi Order during the Pre-Empire Era is overly strict in some ways (again, among other things). I think it was time for a change. But everyone knows that in most cases "Pain" preludes Change. And in this case, "Pain" would be the Empire ruling the Galaxy for several years, allowing what Jedi are left to rethink their lives and rethink the rules of the Jedi Code. And let's face it, it did indeed do the Jedi Order some good. Anyway, back on topic.
And I think Palpatine did indeed have the higher ground. I think it also has to do with the fact that Yoda is a "little" discombobulated at this point because of everything that has been happening. Jedi massacred, Anakin falling to the Dark Side, Clone Troopers turning against the Jedi, and so on, etc.

[Obi-wannabe]

Just because Yoda was the head of the council does not make him a great fighter or does it. Not to mention he was very old. I was confused why he chose to bail on the fight other than they had to tie in the rest of the saga. It seemed a draw until he bailed. Here are some stats on the jedi Yoda was 0-2 in sith battles. Obi wan-2-2 in sith battles 3-2 if you consider grievous. Mace 0-1, Luke 1-1, Qui gon 0-1. I actually think Yoda in his hey day was probably unbeatable, but all heros get old.

[Zedekk]

He didn't win. A good Jedi knows when to walk away from Sith with big heads.

Much like this thread, eh?

"You gotta know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
Know when to run.

You never count your midichlorians,
When you're battling in the Senate,
There'll be time enough for counting,
When living on Dagobah."

I need coffee...................

You're crackin' me up today DblD :hehe:

[jayce76]

"You gotta know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
Know when to run.

You never count your midichlorians,
When you're battling in the Senate,
There'll be time enough for counting,
When living on Dagobah."

I need coffee...................



A fresh 76yr old Kenny Rogers says:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2681/fgbd4.png (http://imageshack.us)

"I like your style Bubba , come and see me when your dealings done."

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

More like "SCARY 76yr old Kenny Rogers..." He doesn't even look like the same person anymore with all that friggin' surgeory!

[blacksaber]

NO way. Yoda was already under tremendous emotional stress before the fight. He was just unfocused.

[Fallen One]

I might be a little off topic on this but after watching ROTS at the begining of there confrontaion when yoda blocked his exit and palpatine ignited his saber did anyone else notice palpatine held his saber completely over his head leaving his whole body exposed to a saber thrust form yoda its been bothering me as well. By the way what form did palpatine use in saber combat?

[Vesper]

I believe Yoda may not have attacked then due to some duelling etiquette or something. And I believed that Sidious either practiced a dark form of Ataru or Juyo - though he probably was very skilled in most forms.

[Master Magnus]

Yes, Palpatine was stronger than Yoda. That is evident in both the movie and the novelization in which Yoda knew that himself. Yoda spent more energy and was exhausted after the fight, more so than Palpatine.

[borgmatrix]

I say, at that point in time, in that situation, Sidious was more powerful. Yoda would have died if he had stayed to fight some more. As much as we love Yoda, he was physically weaker.
That may be. But what if it had been Sidious that lost his grip and fell? Who then would be hurting physically and be at a disadvantage?

The fact is, Sidious was lucky enough to have had an actual handle to grasp onto to pull himself up, whereas Yoda had nothing. Things were pretty even up until that point. It was misfortune on Yoda's part that things worked out that way.

I would actually give Yoda the nod over Sidious based on what I saw. It was the Sith Lord who at various times seemed desperate and afraid (such as after being blasted over his desk when he then attempted to flee, and then later when he leapt away from the the spinning pod that was being thrown at him and lost track of Yoda. Oh yeah, and also when Yoda channeled his lightening back at him, we again saw Sidious' demeanor quickly change.).

There was a lot of bravado on Sidious' part, and a great act at superiority. But we saw cracks in that supposed greatness throughout. He was already pretty much admitting to defeat when he told Yoda that Vader would be more powerful than either of them, essentially saying "yeah, you might beat me, but in the end the Sith will still win." Having to refer to Vader in order to gloat over Yoda doesn't say much about his confidence in his own ability to defeat Yoda.

For all his talk, Sidious got lucky.

[Fallen One]

That may be. But what if it had been Sidious that lost his grip and fell? Who then would be hurting physically and be at a disadvantage?

The fact is, Sidious was lucky enough to have had an actual handle to grasp onto to pull himself up, whereas Yoda had nothing. Things were pretty even up until that point. It was misfortune on Yoda's part that things worked out that way.

I would actually give Yoda the nod over Sidious based on what I saw. It was the Sith Lord who at various times seemed desperate and afraid (such as after being blasted over his desk when he then attempted to flee, and then later when he leapt away from the the spinning pod that was being thrown at him and lost track of Yoda. Oh yeah, and also when Yoda channeled his lightening back at him, we again saw Sidious' demeanor quickly change.).

There was a lot of bravado on Sidious' part, and a great act at superiority. But we saw cracks in that supposed greatness throughout. He was already pretty much admitting to defeat when he told Yoda that Vader would be more powerful than either of them, essentially saying "yeah, you might beat me, but in the end the Sith will still win." Having to refer to Vader in order to gloat over Yoda doesn't say much about his confidence in his own ability to defeat Yoda.

For all his talk, Sidious got lucky.


I agree with you it was a stalemate at best I seen nothing that spelled out Sidious being superior to yoda. The only difference was where yoda fell at there was no railing sidious was just Lucky And I dont care how strong in the force you are a fall that far down would put most if not all out of commision. I will give Sidious credit for bagging the saber duel with yoda and going with the Lightening I do believe if Sidious would have contiuned the saber duel instead of his force lightening he would have been iced..

[Senator Meroa]

Its truly a battle of age over wits if you ask me.:cool:

[darthsith19]

Palpatine is slightly stronger, otherwise he wouldn't have won when they fought. In saber skills Yoda might be ever so slightly stornger but in Force Skills and manipulation skills Sidious is the best.

[Ant]

I think Yoda was much stronger, just cos palps beat him doesnt mean he is better, take the world cup for example, France beat Brazil, Brazil were stronger but France were better on the night. Thats how I look at it

[nefertiti]

This bothered me. Yoda and Sids facing off on the Senate "car".....Up to this point, I see it as being "even-steven"....but when they start using the Force (Yodas eyes go blue) - I think Yoda had the upper hand. Remember Sids face? He was suprised. Thie power throws them both back. Sids has a good save and Yoda hits the ground. Now we've seen Yoda bounch back and forth over those Senator "cars" - why didn't he keep fighting?

[JediBendu]

^ Palpatine had the high ground

[Zedekk]

^ and as we all know thats key in winning in a battle when force users are concerned. see Obi vs Vader

[yoda is numa 1]

i agree with you i think yoda had the upper hand and it was shown by the look on cidius face when he pushed the lightning back at him

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I have decided to revive this thread having just finished reading the ROTS novelisation. Man, all my childhood thoughts of Yoda being the strongest force user ever (considering movies only and bearing in mind that Anakin ultimately was unable to realise his potential) have been crushed in one small paragraph!

'He'd never had it' and 'he'd lost before he was born'. So in fact, this confirms that Palpatine was stronger than Yoda. The Sith had spent a millennia evolving whilst Yoda had kept training the Jedi as they were 1,000 years ago, training to fight the last war, not the one that was occirring around them at the current time.

To be honest I am finding it hard to accept that this was the case, in the movie it seemed like Sidious finally realised the power of the lightsde and Yoda, when Yoda redirected the darkside lightning back at him, the look of determination in his eyes suggesting that he knew he could beat the Emperor. It's like all I knew suddenly being turned on it's head, rather like Yoda must have felt at the time when he realised this.

However, it also makes it interesting in that Mace beat Sidious in their duel. Had it not been for Anakin then Sidious would have been destroyed early. But there is no suggestion that Sidious 'threw' the fight, it just seemed to be the will of the force, to allow Anakin to turn to the darkside to eventually bring balance to the force.

Does this make Mace Windu the strongest Jedi? Was the Jedi order holding Mace back, behind Yoda? He could beat Sidious with a lightsaber (albeit by getting dangerously close to the darkside himself using his Vaapad style of fighting). Yoda could not and he was also not as wise as he seemed, so I have learnt, holding the Jedi back from developing. He would only learn after his battle that self discipline could be learnt without Jedi training.

Reading the book has certainly challenged a lot of my views and pereceptions from the films. I appreciate that the novelisation is lower in terms of cannon than the films, but it was authorised by LFL. So my take on this is that anything that is not explicitly stated in the films but is in the book (and does not contradict the movies) is cannon. In other words, Sidious was more powerful than Yoda. I feel......disappointed.

Anyone else have any comments or additional knowledge with respect to this?

[Zedekk]

^ I did not know this maybe I should take a look at the book. I generally as a rule ignore books that were made from the movies, but I might have to check this one out.:sidxmas:

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I'm maybe thinking I should have avoided it now, but to be fair it is on the whole a great read plus most of the extra detail which is given enhances the story and it has answered a few other questions I had after watching the film.

[Mothman]

.....However, it also makes it interesting in that Mace beat Sidious in their duel. Had it not been for Anakin then Sidious would have been destroyed early. But there is no suggestion that Sidious 'threw' the fight, it just seemed to be the will of the force, to allow Anakin to turn to the darkside to eventually bring balance to the force.....

IMO, Sidious was in control the whole time during his fight with Mace. Just look at his eyes. (If I remember correctly, this was covered quite extensively in another thread.)

However, did the novelization give the take that Mace was in control?

:bye:

[Jedi Master Harrison]

The novelisation gives many extra details in most scenes, but not in this particular one, to describe whether anyone was particularly in charge of the duel. What it does state is that Anakin could feel that there was no Jedi restraint from Mace and that he was 'cutting loose'. It states that Sidious had become a 'pulsar of fear' and that Mace used this fear as a weapon to slice Sidious' lightsaber in half. The way I read that passage, it was the will of the force for Mace to win but then the will of the force that Anakin should be there to stop him from killing Sidious.

Mace was able to use his force gift of finding a 'shatterpoint' during the duel and he felt 'uplifted' as he realised that Sidious' shatterpoint led to Anakin. Obviously he had no idea of what was about to occur.

Apparently half the lightsaber fell down from the window ledge where they were standing which makes me wonder where Sidious got a new one from to fight Yoda later.

[nefertiti]

.....grumble....grumble....JMH....grumble ....grumble..... JMH


I disagree! Yes, I do agree that the Jedi had become lax, did not grow and change with society. Got lost in the new and revamped Sith! Yes, the doubt expressed in the novelization is on target, but it doesn't specifically lead you to the conclusion that Yoda was less than Sidious. If anything, it allowed you to judge them as equal. Within the Force. As users, Sidious will always have the upper hand....because as a Sith he doesn't hesitate to use whatever is available. While Yoda, as a representative of the light, must gage and decide if he can use what's available.

M'Lord Harrison..... you've broken me!

"My blood runs cold through my breast
and when I die, thou alone will kneel at where I rest"

(snaps the gavel on the desk) Request a recess for Jedi Master Harrison to re-read the exerpt!

[Jedi Master Harrison]

.....grumble....grumble....JMH....grumble ....grumble..... JMH


I disagree! Yes, I do agree that the Jedi had become lax, did not grow and change with society. Got lost in the new and revamped Sith! Yes, the doubt expressed in the novelization is on target, but it doesn't specifically lead you to the conclusion that Yoda was less than Sidious. If anything, it allowed you to judge them as equal. Within the Force. As users, Sidious will always have the upper hand....because as a Sith he doesn't hesitate to use whatever is available. While Yoda, as a representative of the light, must gage and decide if he can use what's available.

M'Lord Harrison..... you've broken me!

"My blood runs cold through my breast
and when I die, thou alone will kneel at where I rest"

(snaps the gavel on the desk) Request a recess for Jedi Master Harrison to re-read the exerpt!

I'm afraid I have re-read the passage from the novel quite a few times already. I agree with your point about the Sith using whatever is available, as he only cares about himself. However, I cannot conclude that Yoda was at least Sidious' equal, given the information in the book. Finally, Yoda was able to see through the cloud the darkside had created and realised he 'just didn't have it'. It states that the Sith could not be defeated by a lightsaber or burned away by any torch of the force.

It then goes on to state that as Yoda realised this, the fact that he couldn't win, he had to ensure he didn't lose (by dying) as if he did the hope of ever defeating the Sith would die with him. Now, to me, if Yoda couldn't win but was scared of losing that means that Sidious was stronger than him. Yoda could, at best, equal him by not losing, but there was a chance that Yoda would lose, but not that Sidious would lose.

So, I'm sorry to have 'broken you' but believe me, I feel gutted to have read this, as it changed my whole perception of Yoda and my idea that the lightside was always stronger than the darkside. (I can hear all the pro-Sith senators laughing now!)

But, although Yoda was not strong enough to win this battle, I have consoled myself with the knowledge that Yoda did enough to ensure that he did not lose and then he did the right thing afterwards. He let Luke grow up 'normally' until the force brought him to the old Jedi Masters, so Luke had the necessary abilities to start a new, less strict Jedi order, one that was more relevant to the Galaxy in it's current state.

Yoda obviously knew that Sidious could not be defeated in combat but was able to make Luke strong enough as a Jedi to not be turned by the darkside. Yoda knew from Qui Gon that 'love is the answer to the darkness' and it was Anakin's love for Luke that eventually overthrew the Emperor and brought balance to the force. So eventually Yoda is ultimately more powerful than Sidious through knowledge, as he found the answer to destroy Sidious and also attained immortality, but this answer came from Qui Gon. I suppose therefore it could be argued that Qui Gon was the 'strongest' Jedi as he was the one most in tune with the force and taught Jedi who would die in the future how to become immortal.

[nefertiti]

(places the back of her hand against her forehead….. sighs)

No worries, M’Lord. (sighs) I’ll….I’ll recover. (sighs) To suppose that Yoda and Sidious were not equal “in the Force” is to muse that the Force is directing the events. Which opens the question of the Force. I’ve always seen it as just “existing.” Not good. Not bad. That the user is the determiner – for themselves. The Force-users skills in manipulating the Force is what allows them to be stronger. In that sense, (ouch)… Sidious was strong. Not only does his keep hold of the old ways and traditions, but he explores other areas. Growth. (sigh) Where the Jedi Order, under the tutelage of Yoda seem stagnate. I think Qui-gon is the example of intolerance within the Order. He had a belief outside the traditional Jedi ways. Beloved as he was – he is not ousted, but treated kinda like the brother who’s always in trouble… (Sips her morning coffee….shakes her head….)

Force-wise I still see them as equal. But the tactics, used or lack of, is what what gave Sids the upper hand.

:tease:

[Balnazzar]

Force-wise definitely Yoda. Why? Because of his experience.-Almost 900 years!
And there is one event in the film, in the ROTS to be precise, which totally answers this question. When Yoda and Sidius fight with force lightening for a while(in the end of their saber battle) you get the impression that the Sith is prevailing Yoda, but then the jedi master looks him with rage and honour in his eyes..."you won't beat me!" and then you can clearly see how sith's power wanes.(he becomes weaker.) Than it comes to an explosion, which throws Yoda off the senate disc, but he was standing on the edge, meanwhile Sidius was standing in the centre!!!
I have watched this over 50 times. See the film again, be more careful when it comes to the duel, and you will see it for yourself.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ I couldn't agree more. I have also watched the film about that number of times and I had all the same impressions that you mentioned above. However, upon reading the novelisation, extra detail is included which explicitly states that Yoda was not able to defeat Sidious. To me, that means he was not as strong, given that Sidious was strong enough to defeat Yoda (why Yoda chose escape in the end).

Yes, it shattered all my illusions of Yoda being the most powerful force user alive at the time, but it is clear, from the novel, that he was not. The novel I take to be correct as it does not contradict the film, what we have all taken from the film are our impressions. Yoda looks as though he has the upper hand when his eyes burn with rage and honour and Sidious looks surprised and worried about Yoda's strength when returning the darkside lightning. But in the book it states that Yoda was not strong enough to beat Sidious and Sidious was able to sense this.

[borgmatrix]

But in the book it states that Yoda was not strong enough to beat Sidious and Sidious was able to sense this.
The book does contradict the movie because it paints that battle in a completely different light. It's clear from the movie that Yoda's right with Sidious the entire time. He lost for only one reason: he didn't have anything to grab onto and lost his grip. If the the senate car had been been positioned 180 degrees differently, the Emperor's reign would have been over before it began.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

My interpretation was that the book just added detail to the battle. The outcome was exactly the same. In the movie I think it is simply everyone's interpretation that Yoda was stronger, based on that one scene where his eyes went 'icy' and Palpatine looked shocked. So that is what everyone thinks is the case, but it is not explicitly stated, unlike the book.

I still have a problem with this scene. If Borgmatrix is correct, does this make the book incorrect as the film is higher cannon? Maybe one of the EU'ers might know?

[borgmatrix]

My interpretation was that the book just added detail to the battle. The outcome was exactly the same. In the movie I think it is simply everyone's interpretation that Yoda was stronger, based on that one scene where his eyes went 'icy' and Palpatine looked shocked. So that is what everyone thinks is the case, but it is not explicitly stated, unlike the book.
In a movie, there's often no narrator to say, "Yoda realizes, at this moment, that he can't possibly defeat Sidious..." or "Sidious knew that he was lucky to beat Yoda" or anything like that. You know? In that sense it's not explicit. But that doesn't mean you can't tell from the context what's going on.

The book doesn't just add detail, it presents a completely different look at the battle, one that simply doesn't match the movie.

I'm not saying Yoda's much stronger. But what the movie makes clear is that Yoda is certainly no less than Palpatine and that if either was more likely to lose, it was Palpatine. That's not based on that single moment when Yoda's eyes went "icy". It's based on the entire battle in which Yoda pretty much answers everything that Sids throws at him.

You know what the key is? It's Yoda's conviction which never wavers. Not so for Sidious, who panics ever time the momentum swings toward Yoda.

After Sidious downed Yoda with that initial volley of lightening, and stands there cackling in delight, Yoda gets up and blasts him right over his desk. What we see then, clearly, is a look of fear and panic from the Sith Lord, who then attempts to bolt. When Yoda cuts him off and calls him on it ("If so powerful, why leave?"), what does Sidious say? "You cannot win. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." Does this sound like someone who Yoda can't possibly beat, like the books suggests? Far from it. This is a guy who's clearly saying "Yeah, maybe you'll beat me, Yoda, but it doesn't matter, because even if I die, Vader's gonna be more powerful than you and the Sith will win in the end." Sidious shouldn't have to talk about how great Vader will be if he's so strong Yoda can't touch him.

As the battle continues, we continue to see that Sidious is no greater than Yoda. With their lightsabers, it's pretty much a draw, though interestingly, it's Sidious who roars in frustration as we cut back to Vader and Obi-wan. Again, losing his cool while Yoda remains calm.

Then later when Sidious is tossing Senate pods, Yoda stops one, spins it, and sends it right back at Sidious, who initially is amused, then annoyed, and then visibly panics again as he realizes he's lost sight of Yoda.

When Yoda jumps in and Sids knocks away his saber, it's no problem for Yoda who simply takes it in his hand. Sids thinks he's got the advantage, but then Yoda starts channeling it back toward Sidious, who once again reacts in shock and fear. When Sidious wins the battle moments later, it was, as I mentioned above, complete luck. He had a handle to grab onto, Yoda didn't.

This is not the battle depicted in the book. Yoda was hardly overmatched. If anything, he was the one with the mental discipline and strength of will, while Sidious was the coward who seemed ready to cave at every momentum change.

I still have a problem with this scene. If Borgmatrix is correct, does this make the book incorrect as the film is higher cannon? Maybe one of the EU'ers might know?
With any contradiction, the films get the nod.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ Thanks for the above. You see, everything that you just wrote agreed with my initial thoughts of the scene. The book put doubts in my mind (must be a darkside book :lol: ) and maybe I've got what I was hoping for, confirmation that what is in the film (and therefore my initial feelings) is correct and that it overrules the book. So I was right all along, in the beginning. :lol:

Why would the book not show the battle in the same light, I don't understand the point, surely LFL authorised the book so it should be a bit more in line with the film?

[borgmatrix]

Why would the book not show the battle in the same light, I don't understand the point, surely LFL authorised the book so it should be a bit more in line with the film?
The author probably preferred having Sidious be far superior and was probably allowed to depict things that way as long as the end result was the same (Yoda losing). I find the movie's depiction to be far better and find nothing particularly dramatic about Sidious being superior to Yoda. To me that's ridiculous and unbelievable. But the author of the novel apparently disagreed and was allowed the freedom to portray things differently within the confines of that battle.

[nefertiti]

I opened the book. Pad and pencil in hand, I wrote the section down. Word by word. Paragraph by paragraph (thank the Marker there wasn't much :) ). After reading JMH's distressing news and his redefining of who is superior...I'll have to admit that Yoda himself recognizies the Jedi's lack of growth. He says, "...Sith grew..." In power. In skill. In deception.

Two points I've never changed on relating to the destruction of the Jedi: Their lack of attention to Anakin; they clung to tradition completely.

My own feelings overshadowed anothers, in that I am sorry. Yoda and Sidious were equal in the Force, but Sidious by virtue of his "growth" was superior.

[Mothman]

The book does contradict the movie because it paints that battle in a completely different light. It's clear from the movie that Yoda's right with Sidious the entire time. He lost for only one reason: he didn't have anything to grab onto and lost his grip. If the the senate car had been been positioned 180 degrees differently, the Emperor's reign would have been over before it began.

If the only difference was that our little green friend lost his grip, wouldn't it have better served the credibility of the story for Yoda and Ben (no longer going by the name of Obi-Wan, since Luke was already born by then) to team up and come back to defeat the Emperor, instead of going into exile for almost 20 years?

:bye:

[borgmatrix]

If the only difference was that our little green friend lost his grip, wouldn't it have better served the credibility of the story for Yoda and Ben (no longer going by the name of Obi-Wan, since Luke was already born by then) to team up and come back to defeat the Emperor, instead of going into exile for almost 20 years?
Yoda had his best chance during that moment in ROTS, because Sidious thought he'd died during the execution of Order 66. He didn't expect his "little green friend" to show up. Following his close call with Yoda, there's no way the Emperor would leave himself often to attack again. He knows Yoda and Obi-wan are alive, so security would be incredibly tight. Ben and Yoda could have attempted it, but the chance of even getting to Sidious would have been slim.

[RollaFett]

Yeah, security would've been quite tight. That said, though, they sure did a pretty good job cutting through security at the Jedi temple, no?
Also, confronting Palpatine is one thing. That's what Yoda did at the end of ROTS, but it sounds more like you guys are suggesting an assassination attempt, which would seem to be against the Jedi code.

[Mothman]

.....Also, confronting Palpatine is one thing. That's what Yoda did at the end of ROTS, but it sounds more like you guys are suggesting an assassination attempt, which would seem to be against the Jedi code.

Interesting thought. :scratchchin: At what point does it go from confrontation to assassination?


:bye:

[silverbolt]

Interesting thought. :scratchchin: At what point does it go from confrontation to assassination?


:bye:


confrontation standing toe to toe lightsabers bared
assination little red dot and a gentle squeeze of a trigger

[RollaFett]

Perhaps, but not neccasarily.

Hell, even Yoda's and Obi-Wan's confrontations with Sidious and Vader, respectively, could be looked at as assissination attempts. remember Obi-Wan's line, "Send me to kill the Emperor". It's pretty clear that even though it'll be a one on one fight in each case, the goal is to find those guys and kill them.
It wasn't like Luke confronting Vader, because even if Yoda and Obi-Wan may have thought it was to kill Vader, Luke was looking to turn him the whole time and not kill him.

[Balnazzar]

I don't care what the book says. In the film it was clear that Yoda was stronger than Sidius. Do you all remember how easily Yoda prevailed sith's lightsaber? He was out of luck that day, that's all.
I would also like to see Obi-Wan helping Yoda to kill Sidius, but I doubt that our little jedi master would accept the offer. The Jedi are honourable beings. Even if Yoda and Obi1 were in danger, and it would have been more successful to battle Sidius(and after that also Anakin)together, that would not be the core of their intentions. A good jedi always has his task, his personal mission,-in the film Obi1 to face Anakin, and Yoda to visit Sidius.

[Fish1941]

Exactly how does one judge an individual's strength with the Force? Meditation? Light saber skills? Personally, I don't think we really have an answer. And I cannot help but wonder why it is so important that one character is stronger with the Force than another. Why is brute strength in regard to the Force is so important to the saga's fans? And why are these same fans inclined to judge strength solely on a character's lightsaber skills - namely aggressive force?

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I don't care what the book says. In the film it was clear that Yoda was stronger than Sidius. Do you all remember how easily Yoda prevailed sith's lightsaber? He was out of luck that day, that's all.
I would also like to see Obi-Wan helping Yoda to kill Sidius, but I doubt that our little jedi master would accept the offer. The Jedi are honourable beings. Even if Yoda and Obi1 were in danger, and it would have been more successful to battle Sidius(and after that also Anakin)together, that would not be the core of their intentions. A good jedi always has his task, his personal mission,-in the film Obi1 to face Anakin, and Yoda to visit Sidius.

Obi Wan and Anakin both fought Dooku, Qui Gon and Obi Wan both fought Maul and Mace plus three other Masters 'fought' Sidious, so I do not agree that Jedi always had a personal mission. The Jedi were an order and would work together whenever necessary. It did always seem that if there were more than one of them fighting in tandem that they weren't that successful however. If there had only been one Sith to kill there is no doubt in my mind that Yoda and Obi Wan would have done it together.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Exactly how does one judge an individual's strength with the Force? Meditation? Light saber skills? Personally, I don't think we really have an answer. And I cannot help but wonder why it is so important that one character is stronger with the Force than another. Why is brute strength in regard to the Force is so important to the saga's fans? And why are these same fans inclined to judge strength solely on a character's lightsaber skills - namely aggressive force?

Do fans just judge characters on the strength of their lightsaber skills? I think most fans would agree that Yoda is the strongest Jedi in the films and yet we never saw him win a lightsaber battle. I believe they think this because he was both wise and strong with the force rather than having brute strength.

[Mothman]

I don't care what the book says. In the film it was clear that Yoda was stronger than Sidius. Do you all remember how easily Yoda prevailed sith's lightsaber? He was out of luck that day, that's all.....

In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.

:bye:

[Balnazzar]

Obi Wan and Anakin both fought Dooku, Qui Gon and Obi Wan both fought Maul and Mace plus three other Masters 'fought' Sidious, so I do not agree that Jedi always had a personal mission. The Jedi were an order and would work together whenever necessary. It did always seem that if there were more than one of them fighting in tandem that they weren't that successful however. If there had only been one Sith to kill there is no doubt in my mind that Yoda and Obi Wan would have done it together.


Yes, you are correct. I was trying to say that Obi-Wan and Yoda had their own missions according to the circumstances they were part of.
Besides when Yoda said "strong enough to fight the emperor, you are not" he expressed a certein concern about his friend. My opinion is that Obi-Wan would not be able to survive though fighting side to side with Yoda against Sidius. He would have just represented an obstruct for Yoda during the fight and prevent him to hold his grip, for Yoda would have surely tryed to save him when Sidius strikes Obi-Wan with his lightening against he can stand no chance. It was just too risky for Obi1, and Yoda knew it. His mission was to stop Anakin on Mustafar, that is that.
Oh, and luck? It is just another expression for a word that doesn't exist, or it's yet to be discovered. Some call it "destiny".

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ I see what you meant now, I agree with all of that. I always wondered how strong Obi Wan could have been had he had more faith in his abilities. The Jedi Council thought much more of him than he himself did (this is shown even more in the novel than the film). Shades perhaps of Luke in TESB when he didn't have faith in his force strength.

I mean, beating Anakin was no mean feat. He also destroyed Grevious who had killed many Jedi and also beat Maul when just a Padawan, not a bad record. Having said that he was clearly not as strong as Yoda, Mace or Sidious, as his encounters with Dooku showed.

[Balnazzar]

Yes. And I will always defend the fact that he was better than Anakin when fighting on Mustafar. Some may say that the fortune was on his side that day when Anakin inconsiderate as he was jumped on him, but I think it was the experience and deliberated moves that granted
Obi1s victory.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I believe Obi Wans defensive style of combat helped him in certain duels. For example against both Grevious and Anakin, he was fighting opponents who like to attack. This plays into Obi Wans hands, as he is a Master of the defensive style of lightsaber combat.

In some ways simplicity made him great. In ROTS novelisation it states that Mace fought Grevious but he quickly learnt how to defend himself against agressive style Vaapad, but fighting against a defensive enemy like Obi Wan is a totally different ball game.

I agree, I think Obi Wan used his experience and stayed calm and knew that Anakin could be his own downfall by overestimating his powers, as he was consumed by so much hatred at the time. Anakin was a stronger Jedi overall but Obi Wan out thought him and so out fought him on Mustafar. Which is a reason why Obi Wan was such a great Master.

[nefertiti]

Know what comes to my mind as I think about it? (...no! shouts the crowd...)

Manners. Obi-1 and Yoda were still fighting in a "mannerly" fashion. According to tradition, within the bounds of Jeid.... You know, don't hit a guy when he's done.... Anakin and Sidious are the dirty fighters...if you'll excuse the old slang. I think it's soemthing Yoda and Obi-1 don't understand...this is a fight to the death. No time for manners....

[lovelucas]

I think Yoda was winning most of their duel..up to a point...and he could have taken the entire tamale but it required stepping over to the dark side. That close-up of Yoda before he gets literally bounced says, IMO, "I'm not going to cross over - even if it costs everything" - and that's the turning point. This is when you see Sidious almost gloating and even laughing. I do wonder.....would anything have changed if Yoda had been in tune to Qui Gon's preferred Living Force?
~ Too little too late?? ~

[Jedi Master Harrison]

I think Yoda was winning most of their duel..up to a point...and he could have taken the entire tamale but it required stepping over to the dark side. That close-up of Yoda before he gets literally bounced says, IMO, "I'm not going to cross over - even if it costs everything" - and that's the turning point. This is when you see Sidious almost gloating and even laughing. I do wonder.....would anything have changed if Yoda had been in tune to Qui Gon's preferred Living Force?
~ Too little too late?? ~

I think the outcome could well have been different if Yoda had been in tune with the living force, but I don't know enough about what the living force gave to Qui Gon to suggest a possible outcome.

[Balnazzar]

but I don't know enough about what the living force gave to Qui Gon to suggest a possible outcome.


Immortality maybe?:scratchchin: :)

[Jedi Master Harrison]

^ Yeah, sorry, I meant in the moment of his battle with Sidious rather than later on. Qui Gon used the living force to improvise in the moment rather than planning what would happen in the future (this didn't help him much v Darth Maul mind!), I wonder what would have happened if Yoda had improvised?

[emperor_mai]

Hey would yoda be more powerful if he turned to the darkside?

[Jedi Master Harrison]

"Hard to see, this is. The darkside clouds everything."

[Galileo]

I honestly believe that Yoda is stronger. It was his arrogance and self-righteousness that blinded him and the Jedi order. When it's mentioned that the darkside clouds everything, I like to believe that it is the Jedi's arrogance and navel gazing that clouds everything and not some much the darkside. If I remember correctly Matthew stover eludes to this at the end of the ROTS novelization.

[Orandhite]

Hey would yoda be more powerful if he turned to the darkside?

Is this thread very un-Jedi like? I just thought, after reading this post, that a true Jedi would not need to be stronger, or more powerful, just cleverer, in order to defeat their opponent.

So, then I thought...what is the definition of power? Yoda never creates force lightning, but that does not mean he cannot, he may just choose not too. So, is strength the ability to do something, or the ability to choose not to do something even though doing might help you out?

Plus, if Yoda turned to the dark side, the dramatic entrance of him as a Sith Lord would be decreased incredibly - I mean, just imagine the bit where Darth Maul is stood behind the door at the end of TPM, or when Darth Vader strangles the guy on Tantive IV! I don't think Yoda would have been quite as unsettling a bad guy!

The thing is though, he would look COOL as a Sith - like a little Gremlin or something!

[Solo]

^I agree with you. Definition of power must be clarified. One can solve a problem with a gun and the other can solve it with diplomacy. In the end they both get what they want. So does that mean they have the same power or the one who used the gun is more powerful?

Likewise, Palpatine was fond of sending electric bolts everywhere (very much like Zedekk) and ruling the galaxy with fear. He was very powerful.

Yoda never ruled the galaxy. However in the end Luke, the one he trained, managed to get rid of Palpatine. Now who is more powerful? The one who defeated or the one who was defeated?

Being powerful does not mean the ability to throw a rock very far away or sending electric bolts everywhere as in this case. Being powerful means to control what you have and use it when it is absolutely necesary. Therefore I choose Yoda. And you will not look as good as he did at 900 years of age.:)

[lovelucas]

I think Gailileo has it right - I do agree. but this is also very good from Emperor-Mai:
a true Jedi would not need to be stronger, or more powerful, just cleverer, in order to defeat their opponent.

So, then I thought...what is the definition of power? Yoda never creates force lightning, but that does not mean he cannot, he may just choose not too. So, is strength the ability to do something, or the ability to choose not to do something even though doing might help you out?

[Avid PT Fan]

However in the end Luke, the one he trained, managed to get rid of Palpatine.

Luke didn't manage to get rid of Palpatine, the newly re-awakened Anakin Skywalker did.

[Solo]

Luke didn't manage to get rid of Palpatine, the newly re-awakened Anakin Skywalker did.

Who was the one that re-awakened Anakin Skywalter?

[Orandhite]

Just another thought - most of this thread is about one duel between Yoda and Palpatine.

IMO you cannot define the power of an individual on one fight. Circumstance plays a role in individual duels, such as "having the high ground", or "being weakened by the death of the Jedi". So in an individual battle, you cannot really justify which dueller was more powerful as the result of the confrontation depends on certain other factors that are not simply the power of each individual.

Also, how do you define who won the duel between them? Death would certainly be a contender, but then who won the duel between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader? Did Obi-Wan lose because he offered himself to Vader's saber? I think not. At the time most would say yes (Luke in particular!) but the actual outcome of what he did might lead one to believe that Obi-Wan won. So, the fact that Yoda retreated means that he "lost" and was less powerful? IMO I think that is a very short sighted and naive way to define what happened. Experience tells us that individual moments do not define a reality, but that the amalgamation of many instances of time create the outcome.

So, it is possible to say that Yoda was less powerful as he retreated at the end of the duel. But it is also possible to say that Yoda knew that retreat was the only way to succeed, therefore his "power" was the knowledge that killing Sidious there and not possible.

After reading JMH's posts about the book, even if Yoda knew he could not win the fight (whether it be because Sidious had greater knowledge of the Force/was willing to use the Force to his full advantage rather than only use what he chose to use (as Yoda does)/that Sidious had the higher ground and had something to hold onto) is Yoda not more powerful because he saw his limits and accepted them, rather than believe that he could be more than he actually was?

[Avid PT Fan]

Who was the one that re-awakened Anakin Skywalter?
The one who was under a barrage of lightning and screaming? Again, Luke didn't manage to get rid of Palpatine, the Chosen One did, fulfilling the prophecy. Luke did bring Anakin back so he had a part in the bringing about Palpatines end, but wasn't the one that made it happen.

[Solo]

^However someone was needed to reawaken Anakin Skywalker and that someone was trained by Yoda. This is what I am trying to tell.

[Avid PT Fan]

However in the end Luke, the one he trained, managed to get rid of Palpatine.



This is what I'm replying to originally. Luke DID NOT get rid of Palpatine. Anakin did. Luke facilitated it, but was unable to, only Anakin was.

[Avid PT Fan]

Example: Helping someone into a wheelchair who is crippled, and the cripple rolling the wheelchair, does not make the person who helped said crippled person be the operator of the chair. The only person operating the chair is the person operating the chair. Luke wasn't helping lift and throw the Emperor into the chasm. He helped Anakin come back so that he could do what he did.

[Zedekk]

I can appreciate the little debate of who did what to kill palpatine, but lets stick to to topic its Palpatine vs Yoda. not who trained who to kill who and that makes them more powerful. I agre with Evo in the fact that you cannot really determine who was more powerful based on the one fight.

[Avid PT Fan]

I can appreciate the little debate of who did what to kill palpatine, but lets stick to to topic its Palpatine vs Yoda. not who trained who to kill who and that makes them more powerful. I agre with Evo in the fact that you cannot really determine who was more powerful based on the one fight.

Yeah I just realized this argument has taken the thread off topic.

[Mothman]

Yeah I just realized this argument has taken the thread off topic.

Stay on topic! Stay on topic!!





:bye:

[Avid PT Fan]

Anyway..Palpatine was stronger as the dark side of the Force got stronger. Which was from his machinations.

[Zedekk]

and as an aisde to Evo's lengthy and well thought out explanation, I believe what you are defining as power, Evo, is more along the merits of Wisdom. And Yoda is far more wise than Palpatine could ever hope to become. If wisdom is the determining factor of power as you might suggest in your discusion, Evo, then yes you would be correct in claiming that Yoda in his wisdom and foresight was indeed more "powerful" but I belive that the purpose or intent of this thread, originally, was to debate the power (use of Force skills and skills in lightsaber techniques) to determin which master had the upper hand in a duel and is able to beat down his opponent. That being said... I don't know. Palpatine at some points in the duel looks like he could have been pwned by Yoda and vice versa.:duel:

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Just as a brief interjection, as it is EU and therefore may not be considered by some people..........in the PT novel Yoda: Dark Rendezvous (which is an absolutely fabulous read incidentally) Dooku is discussing the darkside with Yoda. At one point Dooku imagines Yoda has turned to the darkside and realises that a Sith Lord with over 800 years of experience/wisdom would be an absolutely frightening prospect and that Darth Sidious would be 'annihilated'.

I found that interesting, more in keeping with my original thoughts that Yoda was indeed more powerful than Sidious. But in the situation where they duel, there are things that Yoda is not willing to do, whereas Sidious has no such limitations, that plus the high ground issue gave Sidious the upperhand then. I just wish the reason for Yoda realising he could not win the duel (in the novelisation of the movie) was explained. :ohwell:

[Zedekk]

OMFG JMH is back and he lives!

[Orandhite]

I belive that the purpose or intent of this thread, originally, was to debate the power (use of Force skills and skills in lightsaber techniques) to determin which master had the upper hand in a duel

Ah, okay, I think I'm with you now. In that case, I think that they are extremely equal in power, as Sidious is obviously powerful, and also has no limits to what he would do. He would use his full knowledge of the force as a weapon. However, his main downfall is his arrogance in that he believes that he can kick anyone's butt, but at the same time, it is his lack of faith in his own abilities (when something is not as easy as he first thinks, or when something does not go his way - such as throwing force lightning at Yoda who stops it) that could cause his downfall. A bit weird I know, that he appears to act in this way, but that's the way I see his character. That said, he still manages to kick butt even though he is pretty darn old, and looks proper camp when he is wielding a lightsaber!

Yoda on the other hand - I actually think his knowledge of the Force exceeds Sidious', but that his choice to not use that full extent makes him slightly weaker merely in terms as to who would win the duel. His lightsaber skills far outweigh Sidious', but his use of the Force aids his own abilities instead of enhancing them (such as being able to jump around like the Tasmanian Devil). Yoda knows himself very well, knows his strengths, his weaknesses and his limits, and accepts them all, which makes him a better fighter.

I think that in the duel we see in the movie, you could say that Sidious is the more powerful as he gets himself into a better position to attack Yoda.

However, IMO I think Yoda is actually the more powerful, but in this instance many other factors contributed to his "loss" in the fight.

OMFG JMH is back and he lives!

Seconded! Welcome back Bro! :hug:

[Solo]

Being powerfull does not mean you will not loose any battle. You may loose a battle, but if you win the war in the end, that does not mean much, does it?

In the duel scene between Yoda and Sidious, Sidious looks more powerful, but I think Yoda is the powerfull one because of his wisdom and experience. Raw power does not mean much without wisdom and experience.

[Mothman]

.....I just wish the reason for Yoda realising he could not win the duel (in the novelisation of the movie) was explained. :ohwell:

Because he realized that it was his destiny. If he had won, he would have no reason to go into exile on Dagobah and be found there in Episode V.





:bye:

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Why yes, there is of course that, but I just wonder whether it was through the force that he knew, whether he had a premonition or whatever. It's just I always wondered what Yoda could see of the future. In Dark Rendezvous it was alluded to that he knew Dooku was going to fall. If this was the case then he would have likely forseen other major events e.g. The Clone Wars, Anakin's turning etc. I know there's no answer to these things, they just intrigue me!

[Coyote850]

I don't know if Palpy was stronger than Yoda. What I think was he had developed the talent of hiding himself in the Force to the point that Yoda and the rest of the Jedi could not find him. In their fight it was obvious that Palpy was a very strong Sith, that combined with Yoda showing his age I think made Yoda decide retreat and regroup was the best choice. Now if it had been Yoda in his prime I think he would defeated Palpy.

[Raganork8]

I don't think Palpatine is stronger than Yoda because of what we've seen in the movies...

It may or may not be true; but, I don't have the knowledge to make that call.

As for what we've seen in the film I think we saw an equal fight that was ended because of someone losing thier footing -figuratively and literally- Had Yoda not have fell in the direction that he did he might have had a better chance in winning. He actually fell and probably hurt himself and had to leave because of the Clone Troopers that came, if we take a gander at the movie we see palpatine has clone troopers with him in the next scene.

(forgive me i forgot his name)

But the Blue dude who was in Palpy's office leaves very quietly during the paply/Yoda fight, probably to get the best Clone Troopers on Coruscant to come and kill Yoda.

It's an interesting paralell, in AOTC Dooku Runs from Yoda, seemingly, because of the Clone troopers who are coming to meet them and Yoda seems to do the same thing in ROTS.

[VADERGOTH]

Oh no.... You didn't just sing that.


:)

I would have to agree with Blizz and Ironside. I think Yoda knew it wasn't the Force's will for him to beat Palpatine yet. Because, after all, I believe this was the Force's way of changing the Jedi (among other things). I'm sure most of you will agree that the Jedi Order during the Pre-Empire Era is overly strict in some ways (again, among other things). I think it was time for a change. But everyone knows that in most cases "Pain" preludes Change. And in this case, "Pain" would be the Empire ruling the Galaxy for several years, allowing what Jedi are left to rethink their lives and rethink the rules of the Jedi Code. And let's face it, it did indeed do the Jedi Order some good. Anyway, back on topic.
And I think Palpatine did indeed have the higher ground. I think it also has to do with the fact that Yoda is a "little" discombobulated at this point because of everything that has been happening. Jedi massacred, Anakin falling to the Dark Side, Clone Troopers turning against the Jedi, and so on, etc.


anakin was the exact reason the jedi code has those rules imagine you were a jedi you got a kid on the way you have dreams that ur missus is gonna croak exept like anakin your dreams allways happen well most anyways (not the one comeing back and freeing slaves) wouldnt you search for a way to keep that from happening i would have done exactly what anakin did

[Tovor]

...or when Darth Vader strangles the guy on Tantive IV! I don't think Yoda would have been quite as unsettling a bad guy!
While Vader lifted the guy up over his head, instead, Yoda would have reached up over his head and squeezed the guy's...

That's more painful and frightening, me thinks.

[VADERGOTH]

palpatine is far more powerfull than yoda i mean sidious blasts yodas light sabre out of his hands for a jedi of yodas acknolaged power i think that he hadnt droped his sabre in years that was all the proof yoda needed to get out of the kitchen lol

[Orandhite]

^ But Yoda stopped the lightning with his hand. If Palpatine was more powerful then Yoda would not have been able to stop it and reflect it back at him.

[VADERGOTH]

sidiouse is more powerfull than yoda but yoda is more in tune with the force this i agree with but i think that yoda chose to lose the fight firstly coz palpy was stronger than yoda thought and secomdy in order 2 beat palpy he would have had to use darkside power he did keep to the code pretty well althogh him blocking palpys retreat and ignighting his sabre first could have been a close neglect of his control he used an agressive manner

[Zedekk]

sidiouse is more powerfull than yoda but yoda is more in tune with the force this i agree with but i think that yoda chose to lose the fight firstly coz palpy was stronger than yoda thought and secomdy in order 2 beat palpy he would have had to use darkside power he did keep to the code pretty well althogh him blocking palpys retreat and ignighting his sabre first could have been a close neglect of his control he used an agressive manner
I don't think Siths understand anything but an agressive manner. Show anything less and it's an invitation for them to overpower you.

[Kam Solusar]

I am of the personal opinion that Palpatine and Yoda are equally as strong as the other.

[Orandhite]

I think I almost agree with you, if we are talking just about Force use and the like. Personally I like to think that Yoda is stronger than Palpatine as Yoda does not feel the need to exert his power over others in the way that Palpatine does, to meet his own desires.

[Kam Solusar]

I meant simply as in strength in the Force. They are equally matched in that regard.

[Tovor]

Sid showed fear of Yoda and/or Yoda's attack at least 4 times, while Yoda never showed fear once, if that reveals anything at all here. True, Yoda left when he realized he could not win the fight, but he never showed fear like Sidious did.

Case in point, 4 times that Sidious showed fear in his expression and audible gasps or voice:
1- After Yoda knocked him across the room with the Force-push, Sid jumped for the door to escape. When Yoda jumped in front to block his exit, look at the fear on Sid's face.
2- When he hurled the senate pods down at Yoda, Yoda jumped out of the way each time but never looked fearful. While when he sent the pod back up toward Sid, Sidious showed fear on his face before and as he jumped out of the way.
3- Standing in the pod in the next scene, looking around frantically for Yoda to block the expected attack, he looked fearful.
4- When Yoda jumped up and blocked the lightning in the pod, before he pushed back against the energy to knock the both of them out of the pod, you saw fear again on Sid's face.

To be honest, I think that Sid was afraid of Yoda, but I still think that Yoda was, somehow still, the weaker of the two. I think that Sidious gained the upper hand by the ferocity of his attacks. I am not a good fighter, and I haven't fought anybody since I was a child. If I was going up against a larger, stronger opponent, I would hit him as fast as I could and as hard as I could, to throw him off balance and try to gain the upper hand that way. Maybe people might think that I, though the smaller and weaker of the two, looked stronger than the one I feared, but it would only be because I overcompensate to overcome my fear and his advantage. That is what I think that Sidious was doing, to overcome Yoda who he feared was the stronger of the two...but that in the end he was the stronger of the two in the intensity of his attacks.

Or maybe I don't feel that way, to contridict myself. Maybe Sid was weaker than Yoda and that was why he feared him, which was why he attacked with such speed and intensity, to overcome Yoda's power and superior abilities, so that it was the attack which was more powerful, not the attacker. :scratchchin:

[borgmatrix]

Sid showed fear of Yoda and/or Yoda's attack at least 4 times, while Yoda never showed fear once, if that reveals anything at all here.
Exactly what I was talking about several pages back. Yeah, I do think that means something, Tovor. Strictly in terms of power, I'd say they were near-equal. What separated them was Sidious' tendency toward fear/panic whenever the going got tough. Based on what the SW films have brought up again and again, the Sith are ultimately driven/ruled by fear. Sidious seemed very much afraid of losing what he'd just gained: rule over the galaxy, his Emperor status.

Skill/power definitely matter in a fight. But mental discipline is extremely important as well. It can get a lesser combatant through. All else being equal, ones ability to stay strong internally would be the deciding factor.

[RollaFett]

LOL! This exact discussion took place in this thread:
http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=14445&page=5

And just like there, I agree with Borg, and now Tovor, 100%. Palps was visibly fearful of dueling Yoda and certainly left questions over whether or not he was truly more powerful.

[borgmatrix]

LOL! This exact discussion took place in this thread:
http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=14445&page=5
:) That's why I had to make certain I prefaced my latest post with reference to having discussed it before. Didn't want to sound like I'm senile and unknowingly rehashing my old posts.

These topics often do seem to cycle back over old ground. I figure as long as I note I'm aware I'm repeating myself, its not too bad. :innocent:

[Raganork8]

There's no clear indication at all that Palpatine is even "powerful"

Cunning

Smart

Deceiving

Evil...Yes.

Powerful...I don't know.

Even though I think he threw the Mace Windu fight I still don't think that he's physically stronger than him; just in a better position in terms of surprise. They may have thought he was a sith; but, I'm sure part of them wasn't expecting to engage in a vicious Lightsaber battle. PLUS the four of them have probably, never fought a Sith Before.

Then in the Yoda fight, we have the same situation, Palps holds Yoda off for a little, cause yes he does have some power, and then starts throwing senate pods at him. Not really strength against strength there. Then he force lightings him, yea it's surprising packs a bunch, Yoda is straining to push it back and...

He does. Yoda then retreats.

Why? maybe the advanced Clone troopers that are in the very next scene with palpy has something to do with it?

[Tovor]

Yoda held his own against a whole lot of clone trooper getting into the Temple. I don't know why that would have changed in the senate chamber.

[Raganork8]

I agree with you; but, to be fair they didn't have a lightsaber, force lightning or falling senate pods :wink:

[Tovor]

I'm sorry, I don't get you. Who didn't have those things, the clone troopers outside the temple? Or are you saying that Yoda didn't have those things coming at him outside the temple, while he would have had them coming at him as he defended against the clones in the senate? Yes, point taken, I'd considered that. However, I don't think Sidious had his lightsaber anymore, at that point. Never saw him holding it or lighting it after the initial entrance through the seante floor. The next we saw of him, he was all the way up throwing pods down at Yoda, so maybe between those scenes he had lost the saber in the skuffle, before leaping up to begin throwing down pods.

But to your point, if I understood it correctly, Yoda could have put distance between him and Sidious in order to take on the clones. He was already a great distance away after both of their falls. He could have defended against the clones and eliminated them as quickly as he had outside the temple, and then turned to face Sidious.

[Raganork8]

I'm sorry, I don't get you. Who didn't have those things, the clone troopers outside the temple? Or are you saying that Yoda didn't have those things coming at him outside the temple, while he would have had them coming at him as he defended against the clones in the senate? Yes, point taken, I'd considered that. However, I don't think Sidious had his lightsaber anymore, at that point. Never saw him holding it or lighting it after the initial entrance through the seante floor. The next we saw of him, he was all the way up throwing pods down at Yoda, so maybe between those scenes he had lost the saber in the skuffle, before leaping up to begin throwing down pods.

But to your point, if I understood it correctly, Yoda could have put distance between him and Sidious in order to take on the clones. He was already a great distance away after both of their falls. He could have defended against the clones and eliminated them as quickly as he had outside the temple, and then turned to face Sidious.


Thats probably right, but the troopers that came were beyond first class troopers, so perhaps Yoda would have had a little more of a difficult time destroying them.

[Kam Solusar]

Yoda retreats because he just fell far enough to really shake him up, and now he's in a really bad position. Rattled and possibly injured and his enemy has got the reaaaaaaally high ground. He had a small window for a one on one battle, as well, and was starting to close. It was a "fight another day" kind of retreat. Not that Yoda actually did, but that was probably his thinking.

[Raganork8]

Yoda retreats because he just fell far enough to really shake him up, and now he's in a really bad position. Rattled and possibly injured and his enemy has got the reaaaaaaally high ground. He had a small window for a one on one battle, as well, and was starting to close. It was a "fight another day" kind of retreat. Not that Yoda actually did, but that was probably his thinking.


I agree with your last half about the closing window.


the Injury not so much; he's a bit more durable than that.

[Kam Solusar]

I agree with your last half about the closing window.


the Injury not so much; he's a bit more durable than that.

He dips in to the Force quite a bit to get over his advanced age, right? He gets up quite gingerly after he falls, by my estimation. I always interpreted that as having somewhat of an "empty tank," or falling so hard making it nearly impossible to "cover" anymore. Don't discount how hard he falls, I doubt it was shown as such a bad fall if it wasn't supposed to contribute to his subsequent retreat.

[Raganork8]

I don't know if he dips into the force to have extra energy; maybe, to aid him in some of the higher jumps and sustained airtime.

I always thought he was just nimble, he is an alien; count Dooku fights similarly; master swordsman; I don't think he taps into the force to move around.

Don't forget Yoda had some advantage being down there, Palpatine couldn't see where he was, he now had a guise, he could have quickly done something and got back to fighting. I think the reason he left was because he saw the fruitlessness in trying to survive. He may be amazing but he's still mortal.

[Kam Solusar]

Either he limps around slowly using a cane (glimer stick, or whatever) in "normal" mode to throw people off, or he taps in to Force to pull off those moves.

[Darth Nameless]

he taps the force to give him strength

[Kam Solusar]

That's what I was saying he did.

[Raganork8]

Either he limps around slowly using a cane (glimer stick, or whatever) in "normal" mode to throw people off, or he taps in to Force to pull off those moves.


Papatine did it

He walks with a Cane but he doesn't need to.

Yes I agree he has force assisted jumps; but thats just an agility measure to me. I think he's very strong other wise and doesn't need the force to deliver a powerful blow.

To say he's tapping into the force to have any strength and other wise he's just a frail little animal seems wrong.

Palpatine forced lighting into a wall; did he use the force there to endure the attack?

Maybe; but, it was so fast that it seems like he didn't and he got up and continued to fight afterwards.

[Kam Solusar]

Papatine did it

He walks with a Cane but he doesn't need to.

Yes I agree he has force assisted jumps; but thats just an agility measure to me. I think he's very strong other wise and doesn't need the force to deliver a powerful blow.

To say he's tapping into the force to have any strength and other wise he's just a frail little animal seems wrong.


Palpatine does it because he's a deceptive a-hole. Yoda doesn't use the Force to help his infirmity unless he actually needs it.

I seriously doubt that Yoda wouldn't use the cane if he didn't actually need to. You think he'd engage in that sort of deception?

[Lord Tesla]

I seriously doubt that Yoda wouldn't use the cane if he didn't actually need to. You think he'd engage in that sort of deception?

I'm largely in agreement with you, but...

Yoda's an able teacher and commander; there's an element of theater in both roles. The cane might be a prop in more ways than one, and yet not make Yoda guilty of deception. At least not evil Palpatinian deception.

[Darth Nameless]

everyone needs to remember he was like 900 years old...even in the prequals hes old...why wouldnt he need a cane

[Raganork8]

practically speaking, his legs are small, to move effectively he'd have to hop around everywhere.

I read somewhere the gimmer stick (?) helps him flow with the force better.


I'm just saying, it's hard for me to believe that Yoda is a weakling who must rely on the force for battle.

I think most of it is inner stregnth thats better not used for simple transportation and some of it is also the force.

[Darth Nameless]

Where was it you read about the gimmer stick by chance

[Tovor]

...I'm just saying, it's hard for me to believe that Yoda is a weakling who must rely on the force for battle.


Why not? I think that we can safely and easily make a comparison between size and strength, right? Didn't Yoda tell Luke, "Judge me by my size, do you? And where you should not, for my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is..."

I don't recall his words that came next, but he said something about the Force giving him strength, and squeezed Luke's muscle and remarked, "...not this crude matter."

Yoda was telling Luke that strength in the Force had nothing to do with muscle and physical strength. So with all that said and known, I don't see it as a far stretch to accept that Yoda is weak in physical strength, and uses the Force to compensate and give him greater strength and ability.

[Raganork8]

Where was it you read about the gimmer stick by chance


I believe it was the Episode I visual Dictionary.

[Darth Nameless]

thanks ill check that out!

[Raganork8]

Your Very Welcome :)

[RollaFett]

Why not? I think that we can safely and easily make a comparison between size and strength, right? Didn't Yoda tell Luke, "Judge me by my size, do you? And where you should not, for my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is..."

I don't recall his words that came next, but he said something about the Force giving him strength, and squeezed Luke's muscle and remarked, "...not this crude matter."

Yoda was telling Luke that strength in the Force had nothing to do with muscle and physical strength. So with all that said and known, I don't see it as a far stretch to accept that Yoda is weak in physical strength, and uses the Force to compensate and give him greater strength and ability.

Uhhh...that pretty much settles it, I'd think.
Besides, no one has provided a reason as to why he would deceive everyone with his his walking stick. Remember kiddies, deception is a tool of the dark side.

[Lord Tesla]

Uhhh...that pretty much settles it, I'd think.
Besides, no one has provided a reason as to why he would deceive everyone with his his walking stick. Remember kiddies, deception is a tool of the dark side.

Deception is a tool of the dark side?

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father." --Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master, Jedi Council Member

Deception? Yes. Dark side? Dunno. But remember...Yoda went along with it.

[RollaFett]

^ Well ok, if you're gonna provide evidence to the contrary! Balls.

Yes, it was a deception used by Jedi. However, they are not deceiving others at every turn, and this deception was done out of clear desperation. Luke was needed to help rid the galaxy of an evil and knowing the truth right away was thought to be a bad idea. It's a forgivable deception.
Also, outside the scope of the film, it wasn't even a deception until Lucas decided to make Vader Luke's father while writing the 2nd draft of ESB. At that point, there wasn't much to be done about the bold-faced lie told in ANH.

[Lord Tesla]

^ Well ok, if you're gonna provide evidence to the contrary! Balls.

Yes, it was a deception used by Jedi. However, they are not deceiving others at every turn, and this deception was done out of clear desperation. Luke was needed to help rid the galaxy of an evil and knowing the truth right away was thought to be a bad idea. It's a forgivable deception.

Granted. Except...y'know, the Jedi were pretty good at using deception. Qui-Gon concealed his nature and mission on Tatooine. He rigged the dice and manipulated Watto regarding the pod race. The Council sent Anakin and Padmé incognito to Naboo. Obi-Wan changed his name, a little, to hide on Tatooine. Luke helped Threepio impersonate a deity on the Sanctuary Moon...

And, with special reference to Yoda, you'll recall he put on quite a show for Luke when Luke first arrived on Dagobah. And not just with the cane. He pretended to be out of his tree, stupid, and someone other than Yoda the Jedi Master.

Of course, in all these cases, there were extenuating circumstances, as you pointed out in the case of keeping that idiot Luke in the dark to keep him...out of the dark side. They were justified.

But, getting back Yoda and his cane, and a point I made in reply to Kam Solusar a few days back: it might have been something in the nature of a prop useful in his roles as leader and teacher: a visual underscore of his age, and the wisdom and experience attendant on them, and as a means of testing reactions, to see who looked beyond the appearance (as in "Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them.") and what those who saw only the surface made of his apparent age and frailty.

As was his performance at first on Dagobah a test of Luke's abilities and inclinations.

Also, outside the scope of the film, it wasn't even a deception until Lucas decided to make Vader Luke's father while writing the 2nd draft of ESB. At that point, there wasn't much to be done about the bold-faced lie told in ANH.

Quite true, of course.

[Mothman]

..... Also, outside the scope of the film, it wasn't even a deception until Lucas decided to make Vader Luke's father while writing the 2nd draft of ESB. At that point, there wasn't much to be done about the bold-faced lie told in ANH.

You've got that right. So much time and energy is spent around here trying to justify the words and actions of fictitious characters, when it all really boils down to Mr. Lucas continually changing things around and then telling us about how he had things planned from the very beginning. Now, IMO, that's the UNforgivable deception.





:bye:

[RollaFett]

I whole-heartedly agree, however, it can still be fun trying to come up with "in-story" reasons why certain events happen.
BTW, for more on the ever-changing origins of the SW saga, have a look here: http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=16261

[JediBendu]

You've got that right. So much time and energy is spent around here trying to justify the words and actions of fictitious characters, when it all really boils down to Mr. Lucas continually changing things around and then telling us about how he had things planned from the very beginning. Now, IMO, that's the UNforgivable deception.


that's a bit harsh isn't it? Lucas made ANH without any thought of sequels (or prequels!) so fitting any story line for 5 subsequent movies around the first is to be congratulated!

besides, ANH resembles nothing like the original The Star Wars drafts - should he be chastised for not keeping with these as well?

[Kam Solusar]

that's a bit harsh isn't it? Lucas made ANH without any thought of sequels (or prequels!) so fitting any story line for 5 subsequent movies around the first is to be congratulated!

besides, ANH resembles nothing like the original The Star Wars drafts - should he be chastised for not keeping with these as well?

He's not being chastised for changing things. He's the creator, it's his right.

He generally gets chastised for deliberately saying things that make it seem like he's had this grand plan from the get go, when all evidence points to the contrary, that, not unlike Indiana Jones, he was just "making this up as (he) went along." He says things that are designed to make him look like this incredibly creative genius that had it all planned out. He basically is pulling a Palpatine and saying that everything was proceeding as he foresaw. When most people would just assume he was modest about it and said that he kept re working things as he worked and found new exciting ways for the story to go.

[Mothman]

that's a bit harsh isn't it? Lucas made ANH without any thought of sequels (or prequels!) so fitting any story line for 5 subsequent movies around the first is to be congratulated!

besides, ANH resembles nothing like the original The Star Wars drafts - should he be chastised for not keeping with these as well?

Without any thought of sequels? I don't think so. Although neither he, nor anyone else, knew if the original film would be a hit, Mr. Lucas had contractually arranged for sequel rights, etc.







:bye:

[Raganork8]

But had it been a flop he wouldn't have thought of it.

Wanting to do a sequel and having a sequel are two different things.

clearly Lucas didn't have the Sequels throughly in mind from what we've seen happen in them.

[JediBendu]

Without any thought of sequels? I don't think so. Although neither he, nor anyone else, knew if the original film would be a hit, Mr. Lucas had contractually arranged for sequel rights, etc.


which along with the merchandising rights would've been laughed at by studio execs as an impossibility based on their expectations of how well star wars would've panned out.

I don't think he had a sequel in mind per se, but there were a lot of elements from the original screenplay(s) that didn't make it into ANH, enough to use for another installment, irrespective of an over arching plot.

[JediBendu]

He generally gets chastised for deliberately saying things that make it seem like he's had this grand plan from the get go, when all evidence points to the contrary, that, not unlike Indiana Jones, he was just "making this up as (he) went along." He says things that are designed to make him look like this incredibly creative genius that had it all planned out. He basically is pulling a Palpatine and saying that everything was proceeding as he foresaw. When most people would just assume he was modest about it and said that he kept re working things as he worked and found new exciting ways for the story to go.

I don't think it was a 'grand plan' from the beginning, but the original The Star Wars was a lot larger in scope than what eventually became Star Wars.
Lucas was also consciously bringing in classic archetypes to the story - once the success of the first was evident he could expand on those original archetypes (the hero's journey) by introducing both archetypal redemption and suffering.

[Kam Solusar]

I don't think it was a 'grand plan' from the beginning, but the original The Star Wars was a lot larger in scope than what eventually became Star Wars.
Lucas was also consciously bringing in classic archetypes to the story - once the success of the first was evident he could expand on those original archetypes (the hero's journey) by introducing both archetypal redemption and suffering.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that Lucas says, and acts, like he had everything perfectly planned when all logic and reason and anecdotal evidence says otherwise.

[Kam Solusar]

And don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm a Lucas loather. I appreciate that he brought us this very enjoyable group of movies, which I've enjoyed ever since I was a little kid. But when ever he opens his mouth about that particular subject, I feel like he's trying to get one by us, like he thinks we, his fans and the reason why he's got so much carte blanche, are stupid and gullible.

[JediBendu]

And don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm a Lucas loather. I appreciate that he brought us this very enjoyable group of movies, which I've enjoyed ever since I was a little kid. But when ever he opens his mouth about that particular subject, I feel like he's trying to get one by us, like he thinks we, his fans and the reason why he's got so much carte blanche, are stupid and gullible.

that's assuming he's actually speaking for the benefit of the fans - or is he speaking for the benefit of a much wider audience that may not have even of star wars!

...ok that's kinda impossible nowadays but a lot of 'norms' wouldn't know any difference

[Mothman]

But had it been a flop he wouldn't have thought of it.

Wanting to do a sequel and having a sequel are two different things.

clearly Lucas didn't have the Sequels throughly in mind from what we've seen happen in them.

Didn't Mr. Lucas tell us from the beginning that he had this huge story that was too big for one movie, so he cut it into two or three parts and the original film as the first part of that huge story? IMO it sounds like he had sequels in mind from the beginning.




:bye:

[Darth Nameless]

he did have the a whole big story laid out...the OT movies was the second part...the PT was the first...and the story after the OT with leia and han married and luke starting the acadamy again is the third

[lovelucas]

so................you guys think you know all about George's brain, imagination, creativity and have decided you know what he was thinking all along.

amazing. Bet you were there in bed with him when he was recovering from that near-fatal car accident and planted all the SW ideas in his head, which of course never included "it's all about Anakin" - You knew that back then and you emphatically know it know. Do write him someday and let him know that he took a wrong path.....according to you.

[Kam Solusar]

Hey look, I'm only basing my opinion off what the man himself lets leak out of his own mouth. If he wouldn't claim ridiculous crap, I wouldn't feel like he feels like we're all a bunch of idiots who have no sense of logic and reason.

I wish he would take a tack like you mentioned above, and just say something like "hey, my thought process has been an ongoing affair, ideas came and went and new thoughts over rode old ones and I liked the new ones better" etc and so forth. But that's not how he acts.

I mean, come on, just start with the whole Greedo/Han thing. He ALWAYS wanted Greedo to shoot first? He expects us to believe that he shot it the way he did simply because he couldn't figure out a way to make it seem like Greedo shot first? No way, he changed his mind about Han's character years later. He could have easily shot that scene back in 76 so that Greedo shot first. But he's too stubborn or proud or whatever to admit to the fact that he didn't have this grand story perfectly in place from the get-go.

[JediBendu]

Didn't Mr. Lucas tell us from the beginning that he had this huge story that was too big for one movie, so he cut it into two or three parts and the original film as the first part of that huge story? IMO it sounds like he had sequels in mind from the beginning.


I can't recommend enough you read the original The Star Wars:

http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/scripts.htm

You can see the elements that were ommitted, but I don't think he would been thinking sequels

I mean, come on, just start with the whole Greedo/Han thing. He ALWAYS wanted Greedo to shoot first? He expects us to believe that he shot it the way he did simply because he couldn't figure out a way to make it seem like Greedo shot first? No way, he changed his mind about Han's character years later. He could have easily shot that scene back in 76 so that Greedo shot first. But he's too stubborn or proud or whatever to admit to the fact that he didn't have this grand story perfectly in place from the get-go.

It'd be interesting to see whether Greedo shot first in the Cantina scene that was cut:

http://www.starwarsholidayspecial.com/swcs/main.html

he did have the a whole big story laid out...the OT movies was the second part...the PT was the first...and the story after the OT with leia and han married and luke starting the acadamy again is the third

that sounds like some EU novels

Bet you were there in bed with him when he was recovering from that near-fatal car accident and planted all the SW ideas in his head, which of course never included "it's all about Anakin" - You knew that back then and you emphatically know it know. Do write him someday and let him know that he took a wrong path.....according to you.

GL completely ripped off the Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress and mixed in Joseph Cambell theory of archetypal stories - there really wasn't much originality from him at all!

[lovelucas]

He has ALWAYS acknowledged those who have inspired him....and they in turn were inspired by someone also.

He also based costumes on WW I - did he steal from the Kaiser?

[VADERGOTH]

Sid showed fear of Yoda and/or Yoda's attack at least 4 times, while Yoda never showed fear once, if that reveals anything at all here. True, Yoda left when he realized he could not win the fight, but he never showed fear like Sidious did.

Case in point, 4 times that Sidious showed fear in his expression and audible gasps or voice:
1- After Yoda knocked him across the room with the Force-push, Sid jumped for the door to escape. When Yoda jumped in front to block his exit, look at the fear on Sid's face.
2- When he hurled the senate pods down at Yoda, Yoda jumped out of the way each time but never looked fearful. While when he sent the pod back up toward Sid, Sidious showed fear on his face before and as he jumped out of the way.
3- Standing in the pod in the next scene, looking around frantically for Yoda to block the expected attack, he looked fearful.
4- When Yoda jumped up and blocked the lightning in the pod, before he pushed back against the energy to knock the both of them out of the pod, you saw fear again on Sid's face.

To be honest, I think that Sid was afraid of Yoda, but I still think that Yoda was, somehow still, the weaker of the two. I think that Sidious gained the upper hand by the ferocity of his attacks. I am not a good fighter, and I haven't fought anybody since I was a child. If I was going up against a larger, stronger opponent, I would hit him as fast as I could and as hard as I could, to throw him off balance and try to gain the upper hand that way. Maybe people might think that I, though the smaller and weaker of the two, looked stronger than the one I feared, but it would only be because I overcompensate to overcome my fear and his advantage. That is what I think that Sidious was doing, to overcome Yoda who he feared was the stronger of the two...but that in the end he was the stronger of the two in the intensity of his attacks.

Or maybe I don't feel that way, to contridict myself. Maybe Sid was weaker than Yoda and that was why he feared him, which was why he attacked with such speed and intensity, to overcome Yoda's power and superior abilities, so that it was the attack which was more powerful, not the attacker. :scratchchin:

for the sith fear isa route to extra power palpy knew yoda was strong but the fear could be a subtle little trap to make yoda make mistakes