A Challenge to the EUDF! En Guarde!

[Konig15]

I liked the EU, but I stopped reading just before the Corriellian Trilogy because I lost interest. Here are my bashes of the EU in no particular order of vehemence.

1. I really REALLY like Captain Pellaeon. However, it's never explained, at least in what I've read WHY he remains loyal to the Empire, after the Empire's death and seeing how truly awful Issard, and the later warlords are. Even the new Emperor that blows up planets at random with the galaxy gun should have shaken all the gold flakes out of the filth of the Empire, especially a thoroughly decent guy like Pellaeon.

2. And Pallaeon, how am I supposed to take his command? It seems he's sensible and prudent, but not especially brilliant, but he's a good commander because he knows when to strike, he's got a good grasp of timing and logistics, which are boring to SW fans but critical in real life. It's just he didn't have the resources to do it until far too late. It seems like he single handedly saved the Imperial Remnant until an exhausted New Republic finally agreed to peace. It sounds like if Pallaeon had control of the Empire after Endor, the universe would have been a much nicer place because he has decency honor and integrity as well as a sense of justice, despite a strong authoritarian streak. That's my interpretation, but from what I read it's not that clear.

3. Daala is WAY too incompetent! Yes, she got her Admiral bars by sleeping with the boss, but her marks at Carida were extraordinary. I don't expect her to be a genius, but I expect her to perform fairly well. Daala is savvy, politically astute (witness the murder of the warlords) and damn sexy based on her descriptions and her cover art. Making her a tactical bimbo doesn't fit. She's not just a F***able Stormtrooper.

4. Too many goddamn super weapons! Death Star I can handle, but the Sun Crusher, the Galaxy Gun, the thing which irradiates solar systems, Darksaber, blowing up planets becomes commonplace, and even in a government with one million member systems, blowing up planets is not going to go over well. Blowing up Alderaan is not like nuking Hiroshima. Hiroshima can be rebuilt easily, Alderaan can't.

5. The Empire commits atrocities straight out of the box. OK, Palpatine is a Sith, but he's not wonton like Malak. He's a schemer, and his designs take decades to come to fruition. Until ANH, he has plenty of very practical reasons not to BDZ planets or steal their oceans or some such nonsense. He's a popular dictator, and if he acts with outward restraint and justice, he can rule with a light hand until the Empire is established well enough he can begin to create his "Dark Side Theocracy." This isn't morals, it's a matter of strategy and he'd have to go OUT OF HIS WAY to be evil in the eyes of the general public. I don't think the Emperor wanted Tarkin to destroy Alderaan, given the intensive but clumsy effort to cover it up. After he takes the clone body, his Empire is in tatters, so I could see him going Ape $H!T.

6. I've commented on this in another thread: there aren't clear descriptions on races of Man. All I see when I read these books are White people, which would be OK with me if Lucas hadn't put in Lando and Windu as strong Black characters, so I could assume all Humans in SW were white. I don't care if Humans are referred to as (white racial slur), (black racial slur), (Asian racial slur), as long as there's a clear description of them that the audience can readily identify.

7. I expect there to be some NASTY characters in the higher ups of Imperial ranks. The Problem is THEY ALL ARE. Pallaeon is the only high ranking Imperial in the EU I respect. I don't respect Thrawn; Thrawn has people executed for failing him. You don't do that, ever. EVER! And why would rational commanders do that? Vader is EVIL so it makes sense for him to do it, but not for Thrawn. Thing is, General Tagge, Admiral Ozzel, Admiral Piett and General Veers all seem like decent enough guys, they don't exude any of the homicidal/genocidal arrogance of Officers/Admirals/Generals of the EU Empire. Daala isn't even that bad. I want to see more of them and less of Issard.

8. No bad Alliance characters. Even if the Alliance is GOOD, and good isn't just a point of view, it’s a spectrum, The New Republic NEVER commits atrocities, even if the leader of the action has every reason to do so. There's never "questionable actions" like a Star Destroyer leveling every major city on the planet, while it's leaders try and negotiate because either the captain or High Command want an unconditional surrender. Also, the Republic never, NEVER makes serious tactical blunders. Sometimes they're outwitted but it’s never THEIR fault.

9. What's the deal with hating on Bevel Lemelisk? Yes, he designed the Death Star, but that's like taking Oppenheimer and lining him up against the wall. Lemelisk has done NOTHING wrong, and thing bad that happens with his inventions are the fault of the owners of that weapon. Lemelisk is no more guilty of destroying Alderaan than the Manhattan Project scientists were for the destruction of Hiroshima. The Wedge tells him he's going to be executed rankles my sense of justice.

10. No one in their right MIND would let the Sun Crusher exist if they had it. The armor is unique yes, but not that unique. And supposing they kept it around, WHY DIDN'T THEY DESTROY ALL THE RESONENCE TORPEDOS OR AT LEAST LOCK THEM UP ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY SO NOW SOLAR SYSTEM BOUGHT THE BIG ONE?!!! And don't say they didn't know what to do with it, because the second I read that I said, throw it down a black hole.

11. Kyp Durron should have DIED for blowing up Carida system. It was an act of pure genocide and was even less justified than Tarkin's destruction of Alderaan. But he came back into the fold, like prodigal son. This is one of the reasons I gave up on the EU.

12. Ghorman Massacre: Get. Over. It. Now, I have reason to be sympathetic with the Ghorman cause. HOWEVER, they deliberately put themselves in danger. Protest I can understand, but protest must never, NEVER impede lawful activity of any kind. Whether those actions are considered just or not by the protestors is IRRELEVENT. A strike is OK, but sit-down strike is not because it impedes the lawful conduct of business, it is obstruction, it is intimidation and it is WRONG! Tarkin was fully within his rights to land on that platform and kill those people. They were being $h!THEADS and they got what they deserved. If they had been protesting to the side and Tarkin had landed on them anyway, THAT would be a legitimate atrocity.

13. Padme: I would expect that as soon as the Alliance had Coruscant, Luke and Leia could get blood samples taken to see if their maternal line matched anyone in the big government databases. It would be a long shot to them, but it would probably turn up Padme or Padme’s family. Part of this is that until '99 no one knew who their mother was, but even then they don't find out for several more years.

14. They never talk about the Old Republic's faults, other than letting Palpatine have power. The Republic I saw in the Prequels was an utter disaster; no wonder people liked the Empire at first. This is important because if they just pine for the Republic, as they seem to do, they will make the same mistakes. And they may actually do that in the EU, I'm not sure

15. The Jedi: first, it's probably too difficult to retcon, but Luke's academy doesn't seem to have a clear defense as to why Luke allows relationships. I like it like that, but there needs to be an explanation of the break in tradition. Secondly, wouldn't scientist try and clone midicloridians to make a Force steroid? And I find the Jedi, like all mystics, to be detached and philosophically and intellectually incestuous. And why isn't there at least one Gun Jedi? This is not a matter of KOTOR, but due to the fact the Jedi HAD to use blasters until about 15,000 BBY when the first lightsabers were in invented, and even then, they were as cumbersome as flame throwers.

I'd like a point by point refutation if you don't mind. I like the EU in theory, but it's the execution that bothers me.

[DarthSolo]

Well, it has been a while since something like this has happened! Rogues, I hope to see you in force. I'll lead the run, but I won't be touching on everything.

Konig, you have some good points. I would say, though, that by stopping where you have, you've missed some of the best parts of the EU. Read the NJO. It will solve many of the problems you have, I think.



1. I really REALLY like Captain Pellaeon. However, it's never explained, at least in what I've read WHY he remains loyal to the Empire, after the Empire's death and seeing how truly awful Issard, and the later warlords are. Even the new Emperor that blows up planets at random with the galaxy gun should have shaken all the gold flakes out of the filth of the Empire, especially a thoroughly decent guy like Pellaeon.

IMO, it has very much to do with loyalty. Pellaeon is a loyal man. I'll compare his patriotism with mine. (and in no way am I implying America as the evil Empire) I disagree with a lot of what the US does, and I even see countries that I like better (Canada being one). But you don't see me defecting. Instead, I want to change it from the inside. Pelleaon is the same way. And when he does rise to power later in the EU, he is able to do good things with the Empire.


2. And Pallaeon, how am I supposed to take his command? It seems he's sensible and prudent, but not especially brilliant, but he's a good commander because he knows when to strike, he's got a good grasp of timing and logistics, which are boring to SW fans but critical in real life. It's just he didn't have the resources to do it until far too late. It seems like he single handedly saved the Imperial Remnant until an exhausted NewRepublic finally agreed to peace. It sounds like if Pallaeon had control of the Empire after Endor, the universe would have been a much nicer place because he has decency honor and integrity as well as a sense of justice, despite a strong authoritarian streak. That's my interpretation, but from what I read it's not that clear.
You have an intelligent assessment of the situation here. Not sure where the gripe is...

3. Daala is WAY too incompetent! Yes, she got her Admiral bars by sleeping with the boss, but her marks at Carida were extraordinary. I don't expect her to be a genius, but I expect her to perform fairly well. Daala is savvy, politically astute (witness the murder of the warlords) and damn sexy based on her descriptions and her cover art. Making her a tactical bimbo doesn't fit. She's not just a F***able Stormtrooper.
Book smarts aren't equivalent to practical smarts!

4. Too many goddamn super weapons! Death Star I can handle, but the Sun Crusher, the Galaxy Gun, the thing which irradiates solar systems, Darksaber, blowing up planets becomes commonplace, and even in a government with one million member systems, blowing up planets is not going to go over well. Blowing up Alderaan is not like nuking Hiroshima. Hiroshima can be rebuilt easily, Alderaan can't.
Agreed there, my friend. But read the NJO.

5. The Empire commits atrocities straight out of the box. OK, Palpatine is a Sith, but he's not wonton like Malak. He's a schemer, and his designs take decades to come to fruition. Until ANH, he has plenty of very practical reasons not to BDZ planets or steal their oceans or some such nonsense. He's a popular dictator, and if he acts with outward restraint and justice, he can rule with a light hand until the Empire is established well enough he can begin to create his "Dark Side Theocracy." This isn't morals, it's a matter of strategy and he'd have to go OUT OF HIS WAY to be evil in the eyes of the general public. I don't think the Emperor wanted Tarkin to destroy Alderaan, given the intensive but clumsy effort to cover it up. After he takes the clone body, his Empire is in tatters, so I could see him going Ape $H!T.
The Empire's philosophy has always been rule with an iron fist of fear. This is stated in the OT itself. Why would it change when all of its officers have been indoctrinated with it before Palpatine's demise?

6. I've commented on this in another thread: there aren't clear descriptions on races of Man. All I see when I read these books are White people, which would be OK with me if Lucas hadn't put in Lando and Windu as strong Black characters, so I could assume all Humans in SW were white. I don't care if Humans are referred to as (white racial slur), (black racial slur), (Asian racial slur), as long as there's a clear description of them that the audience can readily identify.
This is a legit gripe, though I have seen discriptions of people of other races. I can't be specific, though, for lack of memory. But you're right. There does seem to be a lack of description and sometimes lack of diversity.


8. No bad Alliance characters. Even if the Alliance is GOOD, and good isn't just a point of view, it’s a spectrum, The New Republic NEVER commits atrocities, even if the leader of the action has every reason to do so. There's never "questionable actions" like a Star Destroyer leveling every major city on the planet, while it's leaders try and negotiate because either the captain or High Command want an unconditional surrender. Also, the Republic never, NEVER makes serious tactical blunders. Sometimes they're outwitted but it’s never THEIR fault.

Oh the Bothans comit plenty of attrocities. And, continue to Legacy of the Force. #8 will disapear with that series.


9. What's the deal with hating on Bevel Lemelisk? Yes, he designed the Death Star, but that's like taking Oppenheimer and lining him up against the wall. Lemelisk has done NOTHING wrong, and thing bad that happens with his inventions are the fault of the owners of that weapon. Lemelisk is no more guilty of destroying Alderaan than the Manhattan Project scientists were for the destruction of Hiroshima. The Wedge tells him he's going to be executed rankles my sense of justice.

Well, that's just an interesting philosophical debate, my friend. There was an episode of Star Trek: Voyager (Season 1) that hit that issue head on. I'd get into it with you if I didn't agree with you for the most part. Maybe. not sure where I stand. But, in any case, there is surely room for characters like Wedge to hold the opinion that the creators of the DS should be punished to the highest level of punishment.


10. No one in their right MIND would let the Sun Crusher exist if they had it. The armor is unique yes, but not that unique. And supposing they kept it around, WHY DIDN'T THEY DESTROY ALL THE RESONENCE TORPEDOS OR AT LEAST LOCK THEM UP ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY SO NOW SOLAR SYSTEM BOUGHT THE BIG ONE?!!! And don't say they didn't know what to do with it, because the second I read that I said, throw it down a black hole.
Haven't actually read this series in full, but I'll say again: ruling by fear. People in power aren't always what I would consider "in their right mind".


11. Kyp Durron should have DIED for blowing up Carida system. It was an act of pure genocide and was even less justified than Tarkin's destruction of Alderaan. But he came back into the fold, like prodigal son. This is one of the reasons I gave up on the EU.
Again, haven't read this series, but look at Luke's character. He's not a fire and brimstone, retribution gonna getcha type of guy. He's a compassionate, forgiving man, one who was able to bring Darth Vader back to good in the end. Why would he not forgive Kyp? Especially at a time when he NEEDED FOrce-users to supplement his new Order.


14. They never talk about the OldRepublic's faults, other than letting Palpatine have power. The Republic I saw in the Prequels was an utter disaster; no wonder people liked the Empire at first. This is important because if they just pine for the Republic, as they seem to do, they will make the same mistakes. And they may actually do that in the EU, I'm not sure

That probably has a lot to do with the fact that much of the EU you've read was written before the PT came out. And, the Empire likely put such a huge influx of propaganda that you could never be sure which parts of history are true and which aren't.

15. The Jedi: first, it's probably too difficult to retcon, but Luke's academy doesn't seem to have a clear defense as to why Luke allows relationships. I like it like that, but there needs to be an explanation of the break in tradition.
Well, how about logic? Not too many Jedi around, are there? Gotta get 'em somehow. He doesn't have the experience or resources to go out and look for infants like the Old Jedi Order did. So, he finds the few he can and lets 'em breed. Plus, good luck telling Han that Leia and him can't be together because of tradition. You'd find Han's trusty DL-44 in your face. Also, consider the possibility that Luke did not know all there was to know about the Old Jedi. He may not have discovered the old tradition for a bit. maybe until after there's already some prominent lover Jedi. Not an easy move to tell 'em to split up. And it's all a philosophical choice as to the practicality of relationships for the Jedi.

So I responded to more than I thought I would. Eh.

[The Arbiter]

1. After Palpatine's death the Empire fragmented. There was never really a unified Empire; the Moffs, seeing an oppurtunity to seize leadership of the Empire, began fighting amongst themselves to control it. Isard was merely another warlord who happened to have control of Coruscant; there were other factions like Harrsk. Pellaeon was an officer of the Imperial Navy; he believed in the Empire not as a tool for Palpatine, but as a tool for achieving the goals of the Empire in the first place - prosperity, peace, and order. The Empire is not an inherently evil thing; only Palpatine and several Moffs committed the atrocities that made it so. Pellaeon thus threw his support behind anyone who he thought could bring that ideal of peace, like Daala, who was not pro-human or tyrannical. After he took charge of the Empire he changed it such that it would no longer be the Empire of specieism or brutality. Remember that he was an officer in the Old Republic Navy and took part in the Clone Wars. He knows what its like for the galaxy to be ruled by a loose coalition of corrupt senators, rather than under the strong and firm grip of a single or small group of beings. The fact that the Empire was a singleparty state didnt bother him. The fact that the Empire was ruled by tyrants and incompetents was. So he set out to remedy the Empire. He never threw his support to incompetents or tyrants like Isard.

2. Your point is?

3. Daala, incompetent? Where did you get that idea? She brought the New Republic down on its knees almost to the point that Thrawn did - the only failure she had was to underestimate the Jedi, which is a forgivable mistake - If you found that your entire battle fleet had been thrown across space a few million kilometers and severely damaged by one single Jedi, you'd be shocked too. You said it. She's savvy, politically astute, determined, and not too bad a strategist or tactician.

4. I agree to a certain extent. The good thing is, beyond what you mentioned and the Eye of Palpatine, there are no more superweapons beyond all that.

5. The Empire did not have to wait for the DS to begin the Tarkin Doctrine. From the start the Clone Wars was orchestrated to provide Palpatine with an army and a navy, which he then expanded massively to include thousands of Star Destroyers, one of which could DBZ a whole planet. Remember that Palpatine also had the sympathies of the Senate - they supported the need to rule through force - it was the only way to enforce Peace, Order and Justice in the Empire.

6. Others may care. But this point is purely stylistic.

7. I would say that we haven't been seeing many prominent EU Imperials outside of Thrawn, Pellaeon, Daala and the warlords. Isard was evil, perhaps, but warlords like Zsinj were not, merely bent on conquest and defeating the New Republic. Remember at that time the Empire was still the primary antagonist in SW, and it would have been all to easy to portray them as genocidial. But only a few are: Isard, the reborn Palpatine, Sate Pestage. Most were just trying to reunify the Empire. After Pellaeon took control, the Empire lost its status as the primary antagonist and became a normal faction filled with normal characters. There were also some honourable ones, who, despite being part of the Empire, were sincerely fighting for what they believed in, like Rogriss, Pellaeon, Baron Fel, Voss Parck, Carnor Jax, and others.

8. There are so many bad Alliance characters. Ever read the BFC? The New Jedi Order? Borsk Fey'lya? Pwoe? Tomer Darpen in Starfighters of Adumar? Dif Scaur? And why would the New Republic willingly commit atrocities? The rule by fear is a thing of the past. The New Republic would try to solve it diplomatically, or with its Jedi, which is why its so ineffective, perhaps. In the New Jedi Order, the New Republic makes tactical and strategic blunders everywhere. What about in the Hand of Thrawn Duology, where the NR almost plunges into civil war because of interspecies disputes? The NR is portrayed as well-meaning but flawed, especially during the Hand of Thrawn.

9. Lemelisk knew that the DS was being used for mass destruction. The US built the atomic bomb to save lives that could have been wasted in a bloody landbased war, and even then there was alot of controversy over it.
But Lemelisk knew that his projects were meant for terror and death.

10. The Sun Crusher was immediately sent into the core of Yavin once the New Republic uncovered it. No one expected that Kyp would be able to draw it out. But still, the Sun Crusher was sent down a black hole in the end.

11. Philosophical conundrum. Think what you will.

12. I'd say that killing is wrong, period. This is another moralistic conundrum and not a flaw in the EU. It's purely your own opinion; others may not agree. I don't agree at all.

13. I don't know about this, but it is possible that alot of Old Republic archives were destroyed or kept under locks during Palpatines reign, and subsequently during the battles for Coruscant; and besides, they have no reason to think that their mother was coruscanti.

14. They did make mistakes. Big ones.

15. He did in SQ. Luke acknowledges that PT Jedi disallowed relationships. But when Luke was establishing the Jedi Academy alot of his recruits were already married and too old to start being Jedi. It was necessary to train them the way he did, and to break tradition. Luke also considers the prospect of relationships beneficial, perhaps. He is the Grand Master, and entitled to do what he wants, though after the DN trilogy there are signs that the Jedi Order is slowly turning back into a version of the PT Jedi, like Luke becoming Grand Master of the Order and the formation of a Jedi Council.

The Force steriod idea was explored in Dark Rendevous. Scientists on Vjun found a way to increase the midi-chlorian count on members of the ruling families. Eventually they all went crazy from the dark side energies. Classic Frankenstein complex, perhaps!

The Jedi are mystics because they use the force. Who but they can understand it? Even Han Solo doesnt, and all his relations are force-sensitive.

Luke uses blasters. Mara uses them. Corran Horn uses them.

[csr74]

Let me see:

About points 1,2,4,5,7: I think there´s a clear similarity between the Empire in that moment and the Third Reich. As circumstances worsened, atrocities became even more common and research on superweapons which should turn the tide was emphasized. Even under such circumstances, there were lots of decent people who fought for it. Possibly because of loyalty, or perhaps their sense of honour didn´t allow them to abandon the fight. Thrawn had a good reason to behave like he did: he knew of the Yuuzhan Vong and believed the only way the Galaxy could defend itself was by being united under the Empire.

Point 8: The NR did bad things and commited mistakes. Just carry on reading and you´ll get you answers.

Point 14: Quite probably, the Old Republic was idealized as the contrary to tyranny. That it wasn´t in real life didn´t matter, until it came the moment to actually re-build. There, the old problems aroused.

Point 15: There could be many reasons for that, a conscious decission to change old traditions , a lack of knowledge and the logical impulse to act as normal people did. Possibly it helped that most of them weren´t born-and-bred Jedi, but fairly normal people until that moment. We can even imagine a thing like this: what if luke at some point found out that Obi-Wan had been married (possibly even to a fellow Jedi),as Old Republic Jedi were allowed to marry under some circumstances and concluded that was the normal case (which it wasn´t), and only discovered the truth afterwards.

[PeaceofStar]

Some of these I can't answer because I'll be first person to admit I don't know it all even if I have read most of, if not all, the books...
**
1. Pellaeon is loyal to the principles the Empire stood for - which in theory are good ideals. I'm only speculating, but perhaps Pellaeon was only being pragmatic and reasoning that there are always some crazies in power who will eventually go away whether by vote or by coup...

2. After Ackbar's death, Pellaeon is the commander with the most experience. That he's survived in the Navy since before the Clone Wars is tribute to his ability to keep his people alive. But he's a Naval officer, not a politician. I can't see him taking office, even if it were offered to him.

3. Daala's only fault tactically was not taking the Jedi into account. Remember, she's been stuck in the Maw for years without contact with anyone. The Jedi Order she remembers was fragmented and in hiding - for all intents it didn't exist.

4. I'll agree with you. One of the faults of the older EU novels is that there are way too many superweapons. To paraphrase Stalin: one superweapon is a tragedy, a thousand superweapons is a statistic. After a while it gets rote.

5. When the Emperor first comes to power, the Galaxy is still reeling from the Clone Wars. Like the Germans before Hitler's rise to power, they were still bad off enough to listen to anyone who was a charasmatic enough speaker. That the Jedi supposedly tried to assassinate him only generates sympathy for him. By the time anyone has any idea of the truth, he has all the military power to keep them from dissenting.

6. Does it really matter what color they are as long as you know they're human as opposed to Twi'lek, Devaronian, etc? At least in the novels, you can imagine them to be whatever race you'd like.

7. Power corrupts therefore complete power corrupts completely. From my reading, the Emperor didn't really care what the Moffs did as long as they remained loyal to him and him alone. The same goes for his Grand Admirals. The most highly placed leaders we see are taking full advantage of the situation.

8. We don't see them in the Rebel Alliance so much as after they became the New Republic. Once they're in power, the nasties come out. May I suggest reading the NJO for some really unsavory characters and some very major tactical blunders?

9. No comment as I don't remember that at all...

10. This may be one of those tactical blunders you mentioned earlier. If memory serves, this is the first completely intact superweapon the NR has gotten its hands on. It could be that they really didn't know what to do with it.

11. Sometimes its more cruel to have a person live with their mistakes than to kill them. Now Kyp has to live everyday with those actions looming over his head.

12. I don't remember this one either...

13. They had no reason to believe their mother was anyone of any significance. Another idea is that they just had too much to deal with in the NR and their mother's identity became more of an afterthought.

14. Compared to the Empire, the Old Republic was probably wonderful. Yes, they had to deal with corrupt politicians, etc, but at least they didn't have to worry about being obliterated if they dissented. And the NR did make mistakes as I commented before, see the NJO for plenty of examples.

15. In regards to a Jedi's relationships or lack thereof, I'd have to say it's a lack of knowledge. When the Empire came to power, a lot of that information was destroyed. By the time Luke found it, it was too late as many of his recruits were already in relationships. It was probably a case of pragmatism winning out.

The lightsabers mark them as different. If they all ran around with blasters, there was no way to differentiate them from anyone else possibly posing as a Jedi. Not to say they don't use them as side arms - one Jedi during the Clone Wars even carried a concussion rifle.
**
As I've said before elsewhere, the EU is a case of what happens when too many authors are allowed to play in the same universe. There's going to be differences between authors stylistically and as much as they try there's going to be some problems - I think the NJO is a good example of that.

I wouldn't give up on the EU as a whole just because there are problems with it - especially the earlier stuff. I'll admit that I enjoyed the newer EU better with new authors and different plot lines. There are some books out there that are excellent as stand-alone stories. I'd suggest giving some of the more-recently published EU a try, such as the NJO and later as well as the Clone Wars novels and the X-Wing series.

[tionne]

Yes there are some loop holes in the EU but it is always growing and future books seize some of the gaps in previous stories and expand those ideas. So keep reading, as others have said, and many of your questions will be answered.

Regarding Thrawn. He was a brilliant strategest but recruited by the Emperor and functioned, like you said, when the Empire ruled with 'the iron fist of fear.' As such it is not surprising that he would punish failure, as Vader and the Emperor both did, with a death sentence. The two most recent Zahn books, however, have cast Thrawn in a somewhat misunderstood light and go a long way to changing one's perception of the character.

Come back to the EU read YJK, the two newest Zahn books, and start the NJO and you will no doubt begin to change your perspective on the EU!

[eddie]

1. My opinion about this is that Pellaeon believes (believed) in the Empire. He genuinely thought it would bring order to the chaos in the galaxy, as did the numerous other men who enlisted out of their free will. And I do believe that the Empire as a whole did some good things for the Galaxy (and I do not mean the actions of Palpatine, but the actions of these decent guys who did try to make the Galaxy a safer place)

2. And, again, in my opinion Pallaeon did indeed 'lead' the Empire towards the peace-treaty with the New Republic. It was the power-hungry warlords and such who interrupted his plans for the Imperial Remnant on numerous occasions...

4. Superweapons are just a given fact in the GFFA: they are (or are supposed to be ) effective tools to enforce one's will on other beings/worlds. This remark is just like an undiscovered tribe on Earth complaining that we do have all of these weapons which kill from a great distance... (although this sounds simplistic, I guess y'all know what I mean...)

7. I don't respect Thrawn; Thrawn has people executed for failing him. You don't do that, ever. EVER!
I guess there are some regimes here on good 'ol Earth who also commit atrocities among their own. And it's just Thrawn's way of dealing with what he believes to be unacceptable failures...

8. Also, the Republic never, NEVER makes serious tactical blunders. I guess not all stories are told yet (as I do believe the NR has made mistakes in its years of governing the Galaxy. Bosk Fey'la had his own agenda for a while...)

11. Kyp Durron should have DIED for blowing up Carida system. It was an act of pure genocide and was even less justified than Tarkin's destruction of Alderaan. But he came back into the fold, like prodigal son. This is one of the reasons I gave up on the EU.
Voila, one of the Republic's (and Jedi's) serious tactical blunders...

12. Ghorman Massacre: Get. Over. It. Now, I have reason to be sympathetic with the Ghorman cause. HOWEVER, they deliberately put themselves in danger. Protest I can understand, but protest must never, NEVER impede lawful activity of any kind. Whether those actions are considered just or not by the protestors is IRRELEVENT. A strike is OK, but sit-down strike is not because it impedes the lawful conduct of business, it is obstruction, it is intimidation and it is WRONG! Tarkin was fully within his rights to land on that platform and kill those people.
Better call Greenpeace and explain this to them... :)

13. Padme: I would expect that as soon as the Alliance had Coruscant, Luke and Leia could get blood samples taken to see if their maternal line matched anyone in the big government databases.
Who says they didn't? And who says that such a database (still) excist around the time of the NR?

14. It has been established that the Republic was corrupt in its last decades and was incapable of acting on time on numerous times due to the overly-long bureaucratic Senate meetings...

All in all, the EU keeps on expanding on a daily basis (and with guys 'n gals like Pablo Hidalgo, Dan Wallace, Abel Pena, Sterling Hershey and Karen Traviss, more and more stuff will be added, as they are true fans of the GGFA who understand the importance of tying some things together...)

:)

p.s. I am glad that I am a staunch follower of the EU as it seems to become more and more interesting...

[Konig15]

Ah, my first victim, DarthSolo :devil:

IMO, it has very much to do with loyalty. Pellaeon is a loyal man. I'll compare his patriotism with mine. (and in no way am I implying America as the evil Empire) I disagree with a lot of what the US does, and I even see countries that I like better (Canada being one). But you don't see me defecting. Instead, I want to change it from the inside. Pelleaon is the same way. And when he does rise to power later in the EU, he is able to do good things with the Empire.

Let's Nazi Germany comparision which, BTW, is not always useful, but here I think it is. If you think I'm straying too far out of the EU into Naziland, rebuke me by all means.

Your point is well taken, except that America has been around for longer than us, whereas the Empire was formed when Pallaeon was in his thirties. Many officers in Germany despised the Nazis, but served because they feared the outside threat, the Soviet Union. Here, the only outside threat to the Galactic State is the Vong and onlt Thrawn and maybe the Emperor knew about it. The Republic is still well within living memory, even to humans, so it's not like defection is THAT hard. Everyone supports the Galactic State, until the Vong destroys it, it's just the nature of that state, and Pallaeon has good reasons for serving either. And besides, after the new Emperor shows up, no one can have ANY doubts about his wickedness.

The Empire's philosophy has always been rule with an iron fist of fear. This is stated in the OT itself. Why would it change when all of its officers have been indoctrinated with it before Palpatine's demise?

I'd have to disagree with on both points. The Tarkin doctirne was not formed until well after the Empire was founded. It was always controversial in the EU stuff I've read. If I recall General Tagge was one of it's chief opponents. But even then, Tarkin has to outline for his command staff the basics of his doctrine.

It is true that Tarkin doctrine was a big part of state phillosophy, but Palpatine's hold on the military apparatus wanes as more normal Humans take up position in the Fleet and even army. Tarkin is a Moff; he's a politcal officer, an SS man if you will. Vader is too. Piett, Ozzel, Tagge, and Veers are soldiers through and through. So are most of the Grand Admirals, as the Emperor cannot hand out commands to political favorites as Palpatine, up until ROTJ is much smarter and prudent than Hitler.

As for the officers, even the New Order fanatics, should have realized by Coruscant's fall that rule through terror was simply not working. Plus these are people, who in theory were raised by parents who loved them, and taught them right from wrong. They should have SOME sense of jutice, even if it doesn't match our own.

This is a legit gripe, though I have seen discriptions of people of other races. I can't be specific, though, for lack of memory. But you're right. There does seem to be a lack of description and sometimes lack of diversity.

Thank you!

Oh the Bothans comit plenty of attrocities. And, continue to Legacy of the Force. #8 will disapear with that series.

Oh is this about the Bothans declaring their Genocidal Jihad against the Vong? Let me put it to you this way: I wouldn't help them, but I certainly wouldn't stop them. To be frank, the Vong are really too nasty to be in GFFA.

But, in any case, there is surely room for characters like Wedge to hold the opinion that the creators of the DS should be punished to the highest level of punishment.

Ah, but they way he said it, it wasn't a wish, it was fact.

Haven't actually read this series in full, but I'll say again: ruling by fear. People in power aren't always what I would consider "in their right mind".

No no! The Republic had the Star Crusher. I can sorta understand not destroying the Sun Crusher, maybe, but they didn't even take out the goddamned resonence torpedos? What kind of bull$h!t is that? I'd expect better from Lebanon's Army.

Again, haven't read this series, but look at Luke's character. He's not a fire and brimstone, retribution gonna getcha type of guy. He's a compassionate, forgiving man, one who was able to bring Darth Vader back to good in the end. Why would he not forgive Kyp? Especially at a time when he NEEDED Force-users to supplement his new Order.

Yes but that was not his choice to make. Even if the Order is technically autonomous from Coruscant, crimminal acts commited by members of that order fall under Republic juridiction. The Jedi cannot let their member get away with (mass)murder. They are not Sith.

Well, how about logic? Not too many Jedi around, are there? Gotta get 'em somehow. He doesn't have the experience or resources to go out and look for infants like the Old Jedi Order did. So, he finds the few he can and lets 'em breed. Plus, good luck telling Han that Leia and him can't be together because of tradition. You'd find Han's trusty DL-44 in your face. Also, consider the possibility that Luke did not know all there was to know about the Old Jedi. He may not have discovered the old tradition for a bit. maybe until after there's already some prominent lover Jedi. Not an easy move to tell 'em to split up. And it's all a philosophical choice as to the practicality of relationships for the Jedi.

That's not what I was asking. I KNOW Luke and Mara get hitched and I seriously doubt either would consent giving up the relationship. I just want to know Luke's official reasoning, as well as if the Order will continue to allow relationships in the future. This is important because if I'm going to read about warrior monks in the Jedi Order book, I'd be better off reading about the Templars.

Buuuurp!

Second course! :D

3. Daala, incompetent? Where did you get that idea? She brought the New Republic down on its knees almost to the point that Thrawn did - the only failure she had was to underestimate the Jedi, which is a forgivable mistake - If you found that your entire battle fleet had been thrown across space a few million kilometers and severely damaged by one single Jedi, you'd be shocked too. You said it. She's savvy, politically astute, determined, and not too bad a strategist or tactician.

You know how selective memory can be. I think maybe my allegations are more of years of seeing Daala mocked by fanboys, in RL, in the internet, in articles, whatever. So I'll concede the point if you can explain to me why, if she was so good, did she abdicate responsibility to Pallaeon.

5. The Empire did not have to wait for the DS to begin the Tarkin Doctrine. From the start the Clone Wars was orchestrated to provide Palpatine with an army and a navy, which he then expanded massively to include thousands of Star Destroyers, one of which could DBZ a whole planet. Remember that Palpatine also had the sympathies of the Senate - they supported the need to rule through force - it was the only way to enforce Peace, Order and Justice in the Empire.

I have never questioned the capacity of Star Destroyers, but I probably should based on what they're capable of in space. But that's another fight. But just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. Thing is Palpatine was smart, not emotional. He was more cold blooded than a Falleen. And let's put this in context: we could nuke Mecca and Medina at any time to punish the Islamists who want to cut our throats and put our women in burka (or if you like, cut the throats of our men and put us in barkas). The Great Mosque as radioactive slag has a certain post-apocalyptic appeal, as would BDZing a planet to Palpatine, but is this a smart thing to do?

First, while I'd love to believe one little nuke strike would end the War on Terror, it would be seen as both excessive and wonton and would only fan the flames against us in the Muslim world. Even then, you could say so what? They're WAY over there and they're not citizen and with Muslims, if you enflame them enough, you merely exterminate the lot of them, on the theory that are a foriegn body at war with us and they won't SHUT THE F*** UP AND SIT THE F*** DOWN! And I've talked to my grandpa and he and his buddies where expecting a war of annihilation against the Japanese if they landed on Kiushu. But you CANNOT get away with wonton slaughter of your own citizens.

There are all kinds of negative reprocussions at home too. Civil War, and I don't mean the spoiled brats of the Alliance playing war on daddy's money, acting like some limp-dicked IRA, I mean REAL civil war, the kind you start seeing only in ESB. I'm talking about large portions of the military getting up in arms. And even if there's not civil war, trust in the new order would fall, even the WORST Nazis hid their misdeeds from the public. So the idea that Palps was ruling through fear is bunk. He was ruling WITH the will of the people, probably to the end of his first life. He didn't NEED to be scary, until he disbanded the Senate.

The Galactic State is not Pharotic Egypt. A lot of you make is out to be that, even in the window dressing is Naziland. Even ancient Rome had a more refined sense of justice than the Moffs of the Empire. The Galactic State was both rich and well educated, and while a few bad apples like Tarkin show up, you should see more decent fellows in the ranks. The Emperor only enjoys the trappings of absolute rule, not absolute rule itself. He need the backing of the military, which in all likelhood will not tolerate senseless atrocities and the aristocrats of the Core, who have a sense of noblise obige, and the people, who will not stand to be mistreated for long.

Remember that Palpatine, in the Prequels, is a master manipulator, stratgist, and demogouge. Even Hitler commited few crimes against his OWN people, because his power base demanded he respect them.

[quote=The Arbiter]
9. Lemelisk knew that the DS was being used for mass destruction. The US built the atomic bomb to save lives that could have been wasted in a bloody landbased war, and even then there was alot of controversy over it.
But Lemelisk knew that his projects were meant for terror and death.

And who's to say that Lemelisk didn't believe the same thing? A superweapon that could end the Civil War that began from the day the Empire was founded. Alderaan killed 2 billion, who many more lives were lost from 19 BBY to 0? The whole goal of both was to firghten the opposition into submission. Nuclear weapons, by their very concetion are weapons of terror, genocide and death. And yet, they were neccessary, as was the Death Star, as it was sorely missed by all accounts in the Vong war.

10. The Sun Crusher was immediately sent into the core of Yavin once the New Republic uncovered it. No one expected that Kyp would be able to draw it out. But still, the Sun Crusher was sent down a black hole in the end.

In truth, everyone knew this weapon was too dangerous, well not really the Crusher itself, but the damn torpedos. There is NO good explanation why the torpedos weren't stripped from the Crusher. It needed to go down the hole in the first place

12. I'd say that killing is wrong, period. This is another moralistic conundrum and not a flaw in the EU. It's purely your own opinion; others may not agree. I don't agree at all.

I would have done things differently, for wholly practical reasons. But Tarkin was well within his rights to do so. If you lay down on the tracks, the train ain't stopping for you.

The Force steriod idea was explored in Dark Rendevous. Scientists on Vjun found a way to increase the midi-chlorian count on members of the ruling families. Eventually they all went crazy from the dark side energies. Classic Frankenstein complex, perhaps!

Luke uses blasters. Mara uses them. Corran Horn uses them.

Sweet on both counts :cool:

Buurp!!

Desert! Yippeee! :D

6. Does it really matter what color they are as long as you know they're human as opposed to Twi'lek, Devaronian, etc? At least in the novels, you can imagine them to be whatever race you'd like

If it's important enough to mention Mara Jades red hair, and it is, then it is important to get a clear description of the racial charactestics of the character you're reading about.

11. Sometimes its more cruel to have a person live with their mistakes than to kill them. Now Kyp has to live everyday with those actions looming over his head.

Justice comes a knockin on the business end of a hangman's noose. Kyp's still breathing, that's more than anyone can say about Caridians.

13. They had no reason to believe their mother was anyone of any significance. Another idea is that they just had too much to deal with in the NR and their mother's identity became more of an afterthought.

Wait a sec on that....

14. Compared to the Empire, the Old Republic was probably wonderful. Yes, they had to deal with corrupt politicians, etc, but at least they didn't have to worry about being obliterated if they dissented. And the NR did make mistakes as I commented before, see the NJO for plenty of examples.

I really doubt on a day-to-day basis people were better off. Bascially it sounds like the New Republic was as incompetent in military matters, better at diplomacy, and worse at economics than the Republic, but the Empire was far better at everything except diplomacy. There are exceptions like Rouge Squadron, but the Alliance is led by revolutionaries playing was on daddy's money, and even when they have good leaders like Jan Dondonna and Mom Mothma, they have real idea of how to run a state outside the Senate doors. That's not me, that's the EU I read.

OK, here's something you guys have all missed. Information. It's all about INFORMATION. The records on Coruscant are not just Coruscanti, because they are in the capital, they have records on TRILLIONS of off worlders too. That's why Luke would wanna do a DNA comparison! Geez!

SW may be fantasy...at heart...but it is ultimately Science Fiction. As such, this isn't like Tolkien World were knowledge is hard to find and ignorance is EVERYWHERE. This is a society that is well educated, there are books and holovids and halycrons, and Graffiti everywhere. Even if Palpatine WANTED to erase all knowledge of the Jedi and Force, he CAN'T. The ability of governments to control information outside of military secrets died with the printing press. Luke may be ignorant at times, but that's probably just because Owen raised him without knowledge. And in some of the later written story, Holonet is not just TV, its Telephone (Tycho talking with Dad just as Alderaan went boom), it also begins to take on aspects of the internet. So the information is out there and it's readily availible, even in th Rim.

Saying Luke don't know after getting out on his own is BULL$H!T! The Jedi were never a secretive order like the Sith were: their ploicies and practices were there for the world to see. You CANNOT understand Galactic History without understanding the Jedi, the Sith and the Force. These have been the cruxes of almost every major war in the Republic since it's founding. This may be new to US, but to them...this is grade school history.

Finally, the exploits of Anakin Skywalker are too well known to be supressed. And Vader made a clean break with him until ROTJ. In figureing out who my mother was, I would see which ladies were a part of my father's life. Even if no records existed, and I think they would in abundance, talking to Senators who knew him or non-Jedi friends would be enough to establish he was quite close to Padme, especially right before the Purge. Hmmm...a clue!

This is all simple $H!T really. I don't mind the fantastic, I like it, but the mundane reactions people have to basic history, geography and simple logic need to be there too.

[PeaceofStar]

If it's important enough to mention Mara Jades red hair, and it is, then it is important to get a clear description of the racial charactestics of the character you're reading about.

Is it? In my reading - and not only SW - I've never cared what a person looks like as long as I know their personality (and perhaps species, depending on what I'm reading). I guess it's just a matter of personal and stylistic taste.

Justice comes a knockin on the business end of a hangman's noose. Kyp's still breathing, that's more than anyone can say about Caridians.

Again, personal opinion. I'd recommend reading a short story called "Simple Tricks" in Tales of the New Republic. In it, you'll find that Kyp'd agree with you that he probably should be dead.

I really doubt on a day-to-day basis people were better off. Bascially it sounds like the New Republic was as incompetent in military matters, better at diplomacy, and worse at economics than the Republic, but the Empire was far better at everything except diplomacy. There are exceptions like Rouge Squadron, but the Alliance is led by revolutionaries playing was on daddy's money, and even when they have good leaders like Jan Dondonna and Mom Mothma, they have real idea of how to run a state outside the Senate doors. That's not me, that's the EU I read.

I'll go one better and speculate that normal people on a lot of planets probably didn't notice the regime change from the Old Republic to the Empire to the New Republic.

The leaders may not have had much of an idea of how to run a government, but they knew they wanted something that wasn't the Empire. And no one has all the answers, nor are all regime changes easy. They did their best with the resources and knowledge available to them.

OK, here's something you guys have all missed. Information. It's all about INFORMATION. The records on Coruscant are not just Coruscanti, because they are in the capital, they have records on TRILLIONS of off worlders too. That's why Luke would wanna do a DNA comparison! Geez!

The information may have been readily available, but did they really care at that time? We know later that at least Luke would be interested, but was it enough interest to dig through all those records - like you said, there are trillions of records out there? It might have even been possible to talk to friends and Senators, but when Padme died, I had always assumed the child(ren) were assumed to have died as well in an attempt to keep them safe from Vader. Perhaps even the records were falsified to reveal that they hadn't survived?

Saying Luke don't know after getting out on his own is BULL$H!T! The Jedi were never a secretive order like the Sith were: their ploicies and practices were there for the world to see.

But how many people in the galaxy had ever had dealings with a real Jedi? To a lot of people, they were still fantastic myths more than actual beings. They may not have been secretive but I can't see the Emperor allowing a lot of their more personal practices and policies to be within easy reach. Someone might get ahold of them and infer the truth about their so-called assassination attempt.

[csr74]

About point 15, i would like to expand a bit. Have you noticed that in ANH, Luke seems somewhat ignorant on Jedi? And it seems it´s not only him. Possibly the information is available, but it doesn´t seem to be of public knowledge. Possibly because of its lack of practical utilty in everyday life.

[Konig15]

Peace I appriciate the quick response but let's chew on the following:

The information may have been readily available, but did they really care at that time? We know later that at least Luke would be interested, but was it enough interest to dig through all those records - like you said, there are trillions of records out there? It might have even been possible to talk to friends and Senators, but when Padme died, I had always assumed the child(ren) were assumed to have died as well in an attempt to keep them safe from Vader. Perhaps even the records were falsified to reveal that they hadn't survived?

Think long and hard about this. What I was thinking of is a DNA comparison. That only takes a quick bloodsample and a computer to run it against the profiles in the database, which would take what? A month, tops? And Luke doesn't have to do a thing except kick back and remember to wait five minutes before removing the band-aid.

Suppose the DNA records were lost. Then you have people who knew Skywalker and can reveal the women he hung around, because there might have been more than Padme, I don't know. Then you hear rumors she was PREGNANT? And no father in sight. The red flag that lights up could be seen from Correllia. That records were faked that she died in pregnancy makes things even more suspicous.

But how many people in the galaxy had ever had dealings with a real Jedi? To a lot of people, they were still fantastic myths more than actual beings. They may not have been secretive but I can't see the Emperor allowing a lot of their more personal practices and policies to be within easy reach. Someone might get ahold of them and infer the truth about their so-called assassination attempt.

Why does everyone in the EU fprum pretend that there's never been a Geraldo Rivera before? Hello? Hello? Think McFly think! If Palpatine had been on the throne for 1,000 years, MAYBE you'd have a point. But Palpatine isn't all powerful, he's not CAPABLE of being all powerful. That's one of the consessions of his Dark Side Theocracy: information, on him, the Jedi, the atrocites of the Empire are so ubiquitous he can only dumb down the populace Byss to keep them from rebeling in any capacity. You guys act like there isn't a Barnes and Noble on every fifth street, peddling all sorts of goodies, including "Hyperdrive Repair for Dummies" "50 Ways to Serve Mankind...For Dinner" and Drawed Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Sith Empires: A Primer on Sith Statescraft, Stategy and Rivalry With the Jedi." We don't SEE any books in the movies, but it's strongly implied this exsist and they are seen in the EU. That's not to say that there couldn't be misconceptions, BUT only on technical points, the general thesis of Jedi and Sith teachings are not hard for us to understand, even the midlevel stuff is pretty basic. That common folk know nothing of Darth Plagus the Wise is understandable, that they might know nothing of Darth Bane and the Rule of Two, is a much harder sell. But seeing the Dark Side is such a critcal part of understanding the Old Sith Wars of Revan and Malak, and given their emense scope, common folk would have to learn these basics in grade school.

Now the development of Jedi chastity might require a collge level course, but it's clear the trend goes back to Exar Kun's time, where Jolee Bindo was able to freely marry, even though it was discouraged. Remember whart got him in trouble was the fact that his wife sided with Kun and he didn't kill her when he had the chance.:hmmm:

This is an advanced society. Even if, IF, Tatooine as an ignorant backwater, which I don't buy for a minute, Mid-Rim systems and deeper all are well integrated, with long, LONG pedigrees of learning and culture. To reiterate, Palpatine is no where NEAR all powerful, his ability to suppress knowledge before he became Emperor is damn near non-exsistant. Even his ability to control the flow of information after his usurpation is limited because media outlets are difficult to control inthe best of times and impossible under many prolonged circumstances.

[tionne]

With regards to relationships and the Jedi Order. In Survivor's Quest, Luke is in turmoil about whether or not he should entertain the idea of getting involved with Mara. Would the Jedi of old approve? Did they allow relationships? He is uncertain but in the end decided to follow on whatever the force guided him to, which ultimately was a relationship with Mara.

This is ultimately linked with your points on information. Luke sent Threepio and Artoo into the archives on Corusant for months on end swifting for information, which proved unproductive in attaining anything useful on the Jedi Order. He then spends the better part of a year searching for things himself and finds bits here or there. The major problem being that Vader was first a Jedi and was aware of their redunancy system and as part of the Jedi purge eliminated the holding areas for information on the Jedi Order. In the end he is putting things together piecemeal and winging it on things where he doesn't have the information.

In book II of the NJO Luke is again questioning relationships [initimate as well as familia], but in this text he makes a reference to now being aware that they were not allowed in the old Jedi Order. Feeling that his original choice of allowing the force to dictate his actions regarding relationships he has decided to stick with it and allows parental contact with younglings as well as any romantic relationships that arise.

[The Arbiter]

As I see it there was no unified informational network in the Galaxy, beyond networks on individual worlds. There is no internet that contains an information database that spans the galaxy, because the HoloNet is just too expensive for casual perusal by the Republic.

This is supported by the fact that there is absolutely no indication of such a unified database existing across the whole galaxy - rather, records, books, and data were housed on libraries scattered over thousands of worlds, like the Jedi Archives, Ossus, etc. That may not sound practical or safe but its necessary. There is a sort of planetary isolation that exists for the common people - planets are isolated islands, contactable only by radio and the occasional mail-drop. Such an atmosphere is necessary for the air of mystique and wonder that permeates SW, the mysteries on the next world and such. And there is evidence in the EU that the state of affairs is as I have described.

Holocrons are not publicly accessible. They are Force artifacts.

For many people, even though there might have been a SW equivalent of Barnes and Noble around every corner, the Jedi were to them probably as exotic as Chinese Emperors or Aztec sun-gods, especially in the Outer Rim where there WAS an atmosphere of primitivism and isolation. The Core Worlds might be much more familiar with the Jedi, but NONE of the action in the OT takes place even remotely close to the Core, save the scene at the end of ROTJ where crowds are celebrating the fall of the Empire.

And about Luke not knowing if their mother was Coruscanti, surely Coruscant doesnt have the records of every single human in the galaxy who lived from 40 BBY to now. Even if they did, which is very unlikely, if Luke had done blood tests and compared it to every single female in the database, its possible that Padme didnt even have a DNA sample in the database to begin with. Why should she? Do you have your blood sample in a police database? Even in a technologically advanced society, there are still pockets of primitivism and backwardness and desire for personal space. Remember that Padme didnt even go for a checkup to ascertain she had twins.

Padme concealed her pregnancy, yes. It was poorly disguised, yes. People knew she was pregnant. Why would they suspect Anakin first, who, as a Jedi, is not supposed to be married? And even if a few sharp ones noticed, they'd probably have either died, like Bail, been silenced, or retired to their worlds when the Senate disbanded, or whatever might have kept them from rushing to Luke and saying "I know who your mother was". Besides, the galaxy didn't know who Vader was until the New Republic came to power, and they sure didn't know who Luke was until then as well. Records of Anakin Skywalker were purged. Just because the Emperor can't suppress knowledge of the Jedi doesn't mean he couldnt start trying to. By deleting all information on the Jedi in all the places that he could reach.

And you said yourself that the Jedi had an air of mystique. Why would they be public about their details? Its not as if they can recruit Jedi by establishing a Holonet website detailing the corporate interests of the Jedi Order. Their mystique is necessary for their effectiveness as "keepers of the peace". As Luke said he needs to inject healthy fear of the Jedi into the common people.

Remember that people dont know alot about the Jedi. They know of the Jedi, they know they carry lightsabers, but are they acquainted with the subtleties of the Jedi? Do they know of their constant struggle with the Force? You said that the Jedi were mystical. Public opinion of the Jedi has always been ambivalent, which was how Palpatine managed to convince the Galaxy of the Jedis' treason. Perhaps they overdid the mystique, but thats the fault of the PT Jedi, not the EU.

As said before Luke in ANH seems to take the Jedi for granted, but not the Force. In TPM Anakin knows nothing about the force; he is the "only human who can do it", meaning Podracing, when his abilities are force-based. He only knows that Jedi carry laserswords and free slaves, which they don't. The Jedi only numbered 10000 in the PT, their influence is severely limited. They need that mystique and mystery, and it ultimately worked against them.

Remember that in the OT high-ranking imperials and Han Solo WERE cognizant of the Jedi, but they dont believe in the Force. Even when it is demonstrated RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR FACES. That's how the galaxy treats Jedi. How they view them, especially after Palpatines start on quashing all knowledge on the Jedi. Note that I agree with you: He didnt succeed. But he tried. And if he HAD lived for a thousand years, the Jedi WOULD have been forgotten.

I'll give you a schemer who wantonly butchered his own people: Stalin. He positively SCHEMED to power; it didnt just fall into his lap. His generals went crazy implementing collectivization and the purges: it was for the "good" of his people. And many SUPPORTED this, as far back as Lenin, seeing it as the only way to create the climate for a communist state - the Stakhanovite worker, working for the good of his people. Stalin murdered more people than Hitler. And this wanton killing was for less cause than Palpatine. At least the Emperor murdered thousands in punitive measures to "keep the peace", attempted to quash the more brutal details, and then told the Galaxy "it was necessary to eliminate those neo-anarchists". Remember that a state of informational isolation DID exist. I'm sure the equivalent of internet must have existed ON planets, but by and large they are isolated networks.

You make several good assumptions about the state of the SW galaxy, but SW is fantasy, and therefore it requires a state of isolationism, mystique and primitivism amidst all the sci-fo elements. Its a way for the people of SW to retain all that humanness instead of slipping into Trekkie sort of "holier than thou" supertech.

About Kyp, perhaps you could say that it wasnt him who destroyed Carida, it was Kun. And yes, not dealing with the Sun Crusher was a major blunder on the NR.

[The Arbiter]

And in some of the later written story, Holonet is not just TV, its Telephone (Tycho talking with Dad just as Alderaan went boom), it also begins to take on aspects of the internet. So the information is out there and it's readily availible, even in th Rim.
Tycho was the son of a HoloNet magnate, and he was using a corporate channel to talk to his parents. The HoloNet was accessible to the public during the time of the PT, but only to the very richest. It wasn't controlled until the time of the Empire, but even so, Tycho's father controlled the Holonet provider on Alderaan, which gave him some privileges.

And I strongly suspect that all information on the Republic before the Ruusan Reformation is not general knowledge. The version of the Republic in the PT lasted for a thousand years; that is what people learn about in schools. Not the esoteric knowledge that is probably far back enough to be forgotten. Luke didnt recognize Exar Kun from what he learned in school, rather from what he read in a Holocron, which was not a matter of public discourse.

[PeaceofStar]

Think long and hard about this. What I was thinking of is a DNA comparison. That only takes a quick bloodsample and a computer to run it against the profiles in the database, which would take what? A month, tops? And Luke doesn't have to do a thing except kick back and remember to wait five minutes before removing the band-aid.
I'm only speculating, but it seems to be one of those inherant little holes in the storyline. The information wasn't meant to come out when it was written, so it was never considered.

Suppose the DNA records were lost. Then you have people who knew Skywalker and can reveal the women he hung around, because there might have been more than Padme, I don't know. Then you hear rumors she was PREGNANT? And no father in sight. The red flag that lights up could be seen from Correllia. That records were faked that she died in pregnancy makes things even more suspicous.
Again, the only thing I can suggest is that the information wasn't meant to be known, so it wasn't written in.

Why does everyone in the EU fprum pretend that there's never been a Geraldo Rivera before? Hello? Hello? Think McFly think! If Palpatine had been on the throne for 1,000 years, MAYBE you'd have a point. But Palpatine isn't all powerful, he's not CAPABLE of being all powerful. That's one of the consessions of his Dark Side Theocracy: information, on him, the Jedi, the atrocites of the Empire are so ubiquitous he can only dumb down the populace Byss to keep them from rebeling in any capacity. You guys act like there isn't a Barnes and Noble on every fifth street, peddling all sorts of goodies, including "Hyperdrive Repair for Dummies" "50 Ways to Serve Mankind...For Dinner" and Drawed Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Sith Empires: A Primer on Sith Statescraft, Stategy and Rivalry With the Jedi." We don't SEE any books in the movies, but it's strongly implied this exsist and they are seen in the EU. That's not to say that there couldn't be misconceptions, BUT only on technical points, the general thesis of Jedi and Sith teachings are not hard for us to understand, even the midlevel stuff is pretty basic. That common folk know nothing of Darth Plagus the Wise is understandable, that they might know nothing of Darth Bane and the Rule of Two, is a much harder sell. But seeing the Dark Side is such a critcal part of understanding the Old Sith Wars of Revan and Malak, and given their emense scope, common folk would have to learn these basics in grade school.
The general information might be there, but getting into the details of anything that didn't have to do specifically with the wars might be harder to find - again, only speculation on my part.

Now the development of Jedi chastity might require a collge level course, but it's clear the trend goes back to Exar Kun's time, where Jolee Bindo was able to freely marry, even though it was discouraged. Remember whart got him in trouble was the fact that his wife sided with Kun and he didn't kill her when he had the chance.
Perhaps, but look at what Luke started with. His first Jedi trainees were already adults and - although perhaps not commited in relationships (Corran excepted), they already had lives in the larger galaxy. Luke might have known the Jedi's precedent, but when he's starting with absolutely nothing pragmatism will win out.

This is an advanced society. Even if, IF, Tatooine as an ignorant backwater, which I don't buy for a minute, Mid-Rim systems and deeper all are well integrated, with long, LONG pedigrees of learning and culture. To reiterate, Palpatine is no where NEAR all powerful, his ability to suppress knowledge before he became Emperor is damn near non-exsistant. Even his ability to control the flow of information after his usurpation is limited because media outlets are difficult to control inthe best of times and impossible under many prolonged circumstances.
I won't argue that some information might have leaked between the cracks. To me, it would make sense however if you wanted control, the media would be the first thing you cracked down on. But there isn't a lot written about the Jedi Purge/early Empire-era, so it's all speculation as to what Palpatine did. Mind you there's still more than a decade of his rule left unaccounted for. What we see in the movies is just his final years in power.

[Braden Dar]

Let me have a try at this one, and please be understanding that I'm trying to type as fast as my hunt and peck skills will allow and while watching my son to keep him happy and safe while he plays...

1)Pellaeon was a loyal son of the Empire. He enjoyed the order it represented. If I'm not mistaken, he had other family before him that served in the Republic and Imperial Navy. Plus, as evidenced in Starfighters Of Adumar, an Imperial officer had much more to worry about by defecting from the Empire than just themselves. The understandable fear was of the Empire getting its revenge on you by killing all of your loved ones. But Pellaeon also believed in the ideals (to an extent) that the Empire represented. Bringing peace and order to the galaxy. Not sure how I could elaborate more to express this opinion.

2)He was a fine commanding officer that outlived many of those that seemed flashier and more interesting. His command style was solid. He kept things in order and had a great deal of tactical sense. He wasn't as capable a tactician as Thrawn or possibly Daala, but he knew when to cut his losses and retreat to regroup. And remember from Darksaber that he didn't want to be so high ranking. Daala handed command over to him.

3)Daala was not incompetent. She waged solid wars against the New Republic with (the first time) limited capabilities and intelligence, or with (the second time) a vast fleet of able warships crewed by able men and women. Again, what cost her was failing to understand the full potential of the Jedi and the Force. Nobody knew that the Massassi Temple was a focusing point for Force energy until Daala had already started her assualt on Yavin IV. She was caught in an unwinnable situation and then she was taken out of commission by a former-Jedi that snuck aboard her ship and fired a salvo into a series of explosive items. Her flagship was lost by sheer chance, not by incompetence. She waged war without emotions clouding her judgement and with strategy and tactic guiding her. She lost, ultimately, by the superiority of her opponents.

4)Agreed...too many super weapons. The Death Stars were one thing, but let's quite creating new ones for some sort of plot point that makes them objects for the New Republic to take concern with. Personally, I prefer the Yevethan approach. More ships and using the citizens of the New Republic to wage their war. The Sun Crusher wasn't really that enjoyable for me to read about. It made things too easy. The Darksaber weapon wasn't that bad, though, since it merely copied the Death Star formula. But how's about a few dozen more space-based dogfights? That's much more to my liking.

5)You are both right and wrong on this point. Palpatine did go out of his to commit atrocities. Order 66 being one of them. But he had the people eating out of his hand and they were convinced that the Jedi had been the evil in their midst. As time progressed, Palpatine had solidified more control over every aspect of the Empire that he could (and did) do anything he saw fit. He gave the orders to have the Death Stars built (and later said that it was the Rebellion that had these terrible war machines) and ultimately gave the order to have them used. His original motives seem to be of creating a harmonious society free of trouble, but I doubt that to be true. He was out for conquest from the begining. When his Empire is fallen and broken, he decides that there is no more sense in trying to cover anything up anymore (and he had no control over the media anymore to do so), and his evil because more clear.

6)There is a fundamental lack of human diversity in the Star Wars galaxy, but Lucas didn't want to make it a white, black, hispanic, or asian thing. He wanted the diversity to come mainly from all of the different species of sentient life in the galaxy. And in that, the authors of the EU do a great service to keep expanding the detail of the races of beings encountered. And part of Mara Jade's draw is her "fiery" hair. It could have been used as a draw for someone to remember having seen her with the Emperor while he still ruled from Coruscant. There are a number of characters whose descriptions aren't very clear as to how they look. And some authors may have intended for these characters to be of a different apparent "ethnicity" than the "caucasian" characters we are most familiar with. Just re-watch ROTJ and spot the asian appearance on a number of the A-Wing pilots in particular (at least I think it was primarily A-Wing pilots). Diversity you didn't even know about...

7)Not everyone in the highest ranks would have been evil. However, since it is an evil empire we are reading about, how much good would it have done to expand a great deal on the handful of decent people in the government or military? Palpatine would have done a great dis-service to himself if he had surround himself at the top with people that always denounced him for his villainous ways. He wanted people of like mind, yet ones he could bend to his will. That's why Tarkin was placed in charge of the first Death Star (though Palpatine regretted the fool had allowed it to be destroyed). And Lemelisk was in the same category. More on him in a moment.

8)The Alliance had its share of rotten individuals. The Bothan's are an easy one to remember, but there are many more single entities as well as groups that come up. But being the hope of the future of the galaxy, shining a foul light on the Alliance would have degraded its standing with anyone they tried to recruit into their fight for freedom. More villains come to light the further along in the timeline you go. Read the Black Fleet Crisis to understand about the likes the Yevethan and the puppets they used. Some were decieved, while others just went along with them. And remember, many New Republic personnel, and Alliance before that, came from the defected ranks of the Empire. Many of those were less than reputable. Look at how much trouble the NR ran into in the Corellian Trilogy.

9)In Darksaber, Lemelisk (a clone actually, with all of the originals memories) recounts to himself some of his meetings with Palpatine. He knew what he was creating was for terror and murder, yet he created them all the same. These monstrocities were his "babies." He wanted them made to see how much destruction he could be responsible for. Unlike Qui, Bevel Lemelisk could not say he was trying to stop countless deaths. And the Alliance and the NR knew he was cooperating with the Empire for just such reasons.

10)Daala and the Empire (Palpatine and Tarkin, really) had the Sun Crusher as a new means to terrify anyone that dared to oppose the will of whom ever managed to sit in the seat of power. But after the Sun Crusher came into the possession of the NR, it should have been destroyed and its payload with it. Failing to do so is similar to the NR taking the Lusankya and refitting it and prepping it for use in their own fleets. If you can find a way to make use of an enemies weapon, or reverse engineer it to find out exactly how it works, big government will do so at the drop of a hat.

11)And Saddam Hussein should have been executed already. But that's not how things work. If Kyp had destroyed Coruscant's system, or the Bothan's homeworld, he likely would not have been forgiven...ever. But he acted in a manner that he thought was right, took out an Imperial training planet (and lots of lives), and if I remember right (which may not be the case) had some influence by the Dark Side (Exar Kun). And not steal someone else's thoughts, but Luke and the leadership that was running things at the time were a forgiving people (especially when you blow up something of the oppositions) and Luke did want to get every Force capable being he could to build his Praxeum. So Kyp and all of his talent was allowed a pass on this one. Kyp's actions were not just forgotten, it should be noted. And not everyone in the NR forgave him for what he did. I'm sure the Bothan's will use it from time to time to spout off about a human can do whatever he/she wishes but that they can't.

12)I don't recall the Ghorman Massacre, but I have a faulty memory some times. From the sounds of it, you are saying that Tarkin landed a shuttle right on top of beings protesting something on a landing pad he was using. And that you think they were wrong for having been there in the way, and that Tarkin was justified. In that, would the bulldozer driver be justified for killing a protestor that had chained him or her self to a tree? It sounds as though this is another example of Imperial tyranny and just how much they could get away with and still not be branded as evil.

13)Ahh...the convenience of being the ones in charge and having all the access in the universe to all of the records and being able to do with them what one pleased. Palpatine could very easily have either buried records and data so deep so as to be all but impossible to find; make them appear as though they may be false records to throw everyone off; or he could have them destroyed. There are examples of this sort of thing happening in the EU.

14)They have indeed brought up the faults of the Old Republic. Mostly in passing, but they are brought up. In The Black Fleet Crisis, this very thing is a topic worthy of mention due to the fact that many people feel that Leia is setting herself up to follow her father's footsteps and become an emperor. They discuss new or slightly different ways to divide power to make her office (Chief Of State) less powerful and more of a figurehead. The Bothan's in particular jumped on this and tried to turn the real power over to the remaining form of the Provisional Council, which Feyla was deeply rooted. Other novels have brought this out into the light. But again, its usually as more of a passing topic than a hard point. I think its a two part reason for this.
A)The authors didn't have the Prequels to go by, and thus couldn't tell the real story about how badly the system failed.
B)As they wrote the stories, they wanted to show that the NR was moving forward and not looking back.
What good would it do to constantly look over your shoulder to view the past and see the failures when you are trying to establish a new government that is wholly seperate from that one?

15)As far as the New Jedi go, most of the old ways were destroyed by Palpatine and Vader...including the records about tradition. Luke did not know the full list of how to train a Jedi. He didn't even know part of it. All the instruction he ever received was from Obi-Wan and Yoda, and they were only concerned with training him enough so that he might be able to stand against his father and the Emperor. Most of the old traditions themselves were not really thought out, in my opinion. And I feel that many of those old way Jedi merely adhered to them because they were told that "that's what good Jedi do." Luke saw nothing wrong with a sentient being sharing bonds and feelings with another sentient being. So he decided it was perfectly acceptable for his Jedi to grow some attachments. I kind of think it is better myself for these Jedi have real feelings they don't have to bottle up and feel ashamed for having. We all saw the way that Anakin struggled with the rule about having a love interest, much less what the Jedi code said about getting married and having kids. But who better to raise a Force weilding child than a Jedi and his/her spouse?
A Force steroid? Midichlorians might not be so easy to "fake." It may rob them of their potential Force strength. And it may have been tried.
A gun Jedi? Luke continued pulling his blaster from time to time, even when he had a lightsaber. But most Jedi find that it is a better choice to use their lightsabers rather than the weapons of the world around them. And hey, Luke still climbed into an X-Wing and fired shots at the enemy, didn't he?As to all of the potential arguments for and against Jedi using blasters, I'll leave it for everyone else to continue that discussion.

I've got other things to do, so have a good day...

[Zebra 6]

The one that I really want to touch on is Admiral Daala. You mentioned that she ought not to be just a sexy stormtrooper before. She wasn't. She was actually pretty clever, just had rotten luck because of the writing. Anybody that can get all those troops to follow her after she just killed their warlords and supreme commanders isn't an idiot. And she didn't sleep her way to the top, you admit that you know she had all those great scores at the academy, but sleeping with Tarkin (though creepy) wasn't a power thing, it was actual affection.

I'll try to hit on more of them tommorrow, but for now I have to burn 4 and get out of here.

[Zebra 6]

15. Luke allows relationships in the jedi order because he never knew it was against the old rules. But even if he knew it was like that in the old republic I think he would allow them. Afterall, he is a born romantic, and it's not like he is going to say "I'm allowed to have Mara Jade, but the rest of you get to stay alone".

[Konig15]

Just so you guys know, I'm still lurkin a bit, but I don't have time this week, or maybe next, to do a proper counter argument, which can sometimes take three hours for me as I have no typing skills. When I'm all caught up on school work, the game will begin and again. I'm lookin forward to it.

It's been a pleasure so far. And check out my challenge in the Prequel Defense Force thread if you like. People are not doing their jobs.... ;)

[DarthSolo]

Ah, my first victim, DarthSolo :devil:



Let's Nazi Germany comparision which, BTW, is not always useful, but here I think it is. If you think I'm straying too far out of the EU into Naziland, rebuke me by all means.

Your point is well taken, except that America has been around for longer than us, whereas the Empire was formed when Pallaeon was in his thirties. Many officers in Germany despised the Nazis, but served because they feared the outside threat, the Soviet Union. Here, the only outside threat to the Galactic State is the Vong and onlt Thrawn and maybe the Emperor knew about it. The Republic is still well within living memory, even to humans, so it's not like defection is THAT hard. Everyone supports the Galactic State, until the Vong destroys it, it's just the nature of that state, and Pallaeon has good reasons for serving either. And besides, after the new Emperor shows up, no one can have ANY doubts about his wickedness.

Go back and watch Episode III. Remember that scene where Palpatine anounces the formation of the Empire? Almost everyone was CLAPPING! Senators! The most intelligent people in the galaxy. Most of the people thought the Empire WAS needed. So did Pallaeon. And remember, the Empire didn't really overthrow the Republic. The Republic evolved into the Empire. Palleaon lived through that evolution, and probably considered them one and the same. During his many many years in the service of the Empire, he likely began to believe in a lot of its philosophies. That is why he stuck around. Because, like much of the galaxy, he thought it was needed at its creation. Then he thought it still could do good. And in the end, he holds a high rank in the Galactic Alliance, which is a combination of all the governments. So, after a bit, your gripe is dealt with!




I'd have to disagree with on both points. The Tarkin doctirne was not formed until well after the Empire was founded. It was always controversial in the EU stuff I've read. If I recall General Tagge was one of it's chief opponents. But even then, Tarkin has to outline for his command staff the basics of his doctrine.

It is true that Tarkin doctrine was a big part of state phillosophy, but Palpatine's hold on the military apparatus wanes as more normal Humans take up position in the Fleet and even army. Tarkin is a Moff; he's a politcal officer, an SS man if you will. Vader is too. Piett, Ozzel, Tagge, and Veers are soldiers through and through. So are most of the Grand Admirals, as the Emperor cannot hand out commands to political favorites as Palpatine, up until ROTJ is much smarter and prudent than Hitler.

As for the officers, even the New Order fanatics, should have realized by Coruscant's fall that rule through terror was simply not working. Plus these are people, who in theory were raised by parents who loved them, and taught them right from wrong. They should have SOME sense of jutice, even if it doesn't match our own.


While the Tarkin Doctrine may not have been around, the general philosophy probably still was. That's the main reason why the Empire was so evil, IMO, was that they were ruling by fear (something the Sith really are quite good at, manipulating fear). Also, you mentioned many military men. In the military, you expect obedience. That evolved into the philosophy of the Empire's rule: expecting obedience, punishing disobedience so harshly that no one would dare disobey.




Oh is this about the Bothans declaring their Genocidal Jihad against the Vong? Let me put it to you this way: I wouldn't help them, but I certainly wouldn't stop them. To be frank, the Vong are really too nasty to be in GFFA.

Well, at this point, ya. But that doesn't mean Genocide is necesary.




Ah, but they way he said it, it wasn't a wish, it was fact.

BZZZZZZZZT WROOOOONG! Whenever a character says something outloud or something is written from a character's perspective, it is always OPINION, not fact. Wedge doesn't know everything. He ain't always right. There is always room for other opinions. Simply because Palpatine believed the Sith were better than the Jedi to rule, doesn't make it fact.



That's not what I was asking. I KNOW Luke and Mara get hitched and I seriously doubt either would consent giving up the relationship. I just want to know Luke's official reasoning, as well as if the Order will continue to allow relationships in the future. This is important because if I'm going to read about warrior monks in the Jedi Order book, I'd be better off reading about the Templars.

I simply don't know if the order will allow relationships in the future or not. Luke has a legitimate reason for them to now. I don't know if that will continue in time. None of us here can answer that question for you.

RE: your points about Kyp, the Sun Crusher, and the Jedi Academy series, from what you say, they're good, solid, gripes. But I haven't read the series, so I can't fully debate them with you! Others surely will!

Good show, mate.

[Konig15]

OK, I'm popin in real quick.

My bad Solo, what I meant about the 'new Emperor' is when he shows up six years after Endor in a new body and is unleashing world eaters and Galaxy guns. Before then, Palpatine's status as head of state, and his merits of having it, were somewhat justifiable. Sorry about the mix up.

I'm actually quite pleased with the Legacy series I read about on Wookiee, where a Fel takes the throne and reunites the galaxy under a more just Empire. I'm just wondering why it would be so hard to re-institute the Imperial Senate. Many, MANY Roman Emperors found their ability to rule much enhanced by the Roman Senate.

[Zebra 6]

IMO, the whole point to "bad guys" wanting power is that they have it so they don't have to share it. Reuniting the senate so they can argue and bicker over everything, though democratic, isn't what the emperor (or an emperor type leader) would want. They want power so they can be the one who makes all the decisions and people have no choice but to listen.

[Konig15]

Well one, it gives the Empire a more liberal front, and gives the people some sense of stake in the Empire. Despite pascifistic [people] the military has never really hurt for volunteers, despite mass casualties or unpopularity of the war at hand. That's because Americans have a real stake in their nation and government. It makes people more loyal, by giving them a good reason TO be loyal.

Besides, do you know how much bickering, indesiceiness, and incompetence can be blamed on an Imperial Senate? Man in public opinion, it would keep a clever Emperor cleaner than a hypocondric's toilet.

[Zebra 6]

I'm afraid I don't see how the senate's incompitence would make the Emperor look better. Afterall, he is supposed to be in charge and mediating all of them. Not to mention that after all is said and done the decision ultimately can come down to him if he wants it to. Anybody that disagreed with him wouldn't necessarily be stretching out their life expectancy.

Also, I was not arguing what look bringing the senate back would give him or the government. I was arguing that he wouldn't bring it back because he wouldn't want to because that would mean he would not have all the power.

[Konig15]

Marty! You're still thinking three demensionally!

Very true, but let me ask you this: What's the only thing better than having all the power?

A: Having someone else you can hang the blame on when things go wrong!

Trust me dude, all the Roman Emperors did it: Audgustus, Tiberias, Vespasian, Constantine. They had all the REAL power, but techniaclly the Senate ran the show.

Plus you're not thinking long-term. Eventually, you're going to have to raise taxes and the nobles, of which SW has more than a few, to say nothing of the people, are going to throw an utter $H!TFIT. With ol, King John, they trapped him at Runnymeade and held his ass to the fire until he signed the Magna Carta. No one truly EVER gets absolute power but God. We all have to play the little games and bring various interest groups into our little ad hoc arrangements. That's politics; whether you make this official determines whether you can play to this weakness or not.

Palpatine was arrogant and a degenerate Sith. Emperor Fel on the other hand is a fair and just and reasonable guy and frankly recreating the Imperial Senate is something that costs him little and nets him much. Why do you think after the Napoleonic Wars the Monarchs of Europe submitted to Constituional Rule? Because it solidified their hand against Republican agitation, like the GFFA in the 130s ABY.

[Zebra 6]

What you say is very true. Though my point is that because he is the emperor he wouldn't have to worry about blame placement. It may be his fault, but because he is as high up as it goes he doesn't have to worry about higher ups kicking him out of power or the populace getting rowdy. Because he controls everything. Personally I like the idea of the senate, I'm just defending the way things are.

[Konig15]

I understand where you're going though. It's just I always thought the 1789 Constitution (sans amendments) was perfect for a power sharing argeements. The Federalist papers make it clear it was designed to seperate powers, so not even the People themselves had absolute power (no mob rule).

I figure the Presidency is simply an elected monarch, so a hereditary monarch with presidential power would work better, according to Fed Paper theory. The Judicary would naturally fall in the hands of the Church, whatever the Church might be. Maybe give the Senate to the Nobles. So everyone in a quasi fuedal system has representation, not equal representation, but thems the breaks.

In my 'Odd Idea for a Star Wars fic' thread, the Teanaarian Kingdom Constituion works sorta like that, only without an *Offical* state Church and no nobility. But I don't wanna digress too much.

[Zebra 6]

I agree with you that it would work better. But as I said before, I'm just defending the way it is and the way it was written originally. But as you said we have digressed. So much that I don't feel we're really even still talking about SW.

So throw another one out there and this rogue will take it on when he can.

[DarthSolo]

Very true, but let me ask you this: What's the only thing better than having all the power?

A: Having someone else you can hang the blame on when things go wrong!

Trust me dude, all the Roman Emperors did it: Audgustus, Tiberias, Vespasian, Constantine. They had all the REAL power, but techniaclly the Senate ran the show.

Plus you're not thinking long-term. Eventually, you're going to have to raise taxes and the nobles, of which SW has more than a few, to say nothing of the people, are going to throw an utter $H!TFIT. With ol, King John, they trapped him at Runnymeade and held his ass to the fire until he signed the Magna Carta. No one truly EVER gets absolute power but God. We all have to play the little games and bring various interest groups into our little ad hoc arrangements. That's politics; whether you make this official determines whether you can play to this weakness or not.

Palpatine was arrogant and a degenerate Sith. Emperor Fel on the other hand is a fair and just and reasonable guy and frankly recreating the Imperial Senate is something that costs him little and nets him much. Why do you think after the Napoleonic Wars the Monarchs of Europe submitted to Constituional Rule? Because it solidified their hand against Republican agitation, like the GFFA in the 130s ABY.
My friend, there are 2.5 comics released involving Emperorl Roan Fel. That's not more than 100 pages of information on him. And the storylines have not had him featured prominently. We have no idea wheather he has reinstated the Imperial Senate. Legacy #3 is supposed to come out tomorrow, and maybe we'll find out, but I doubt it.

[Konig15]

I know Fel's dynasty may or may not have restored the Senate but I'd think some democratic body would come into existence, or at least the popular assemblies would have a hand in apoointing Moffs.

While I haven't read the Legacy comics yet (cause I can't find issue #1 to start), I'm conserned with the Jedi/Sith thing. There's always one more Jedi, always one more Sith, like the avatars of Gods that can't be killed. And then only the "chosen" may have the honor.

I'm going to commit the ultimate heresy here: The Jedi are the least interesting part of the SW universe. That's why I love the X-Wing books. It's why I like (sort of) season 1 of Babylon 5, the first two seasons of Farscape and the first Dune. The supermen, the superweapons take away the human angle and riun what had been a great storytelling.

Something to chew on.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Surely the whole point of a fantasy story (which is what the idea for SW originally and still is) is that you can have humans who have learnt how to use powers that aren't realistic in the real world? To me, anyway, that is it's appeal. I think there are still enough human characteristics in the Jedi for us to relate to.

[AnaSkywalker]

Jedi Master Harrison:
forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I think i can add some general arguments that aren't specific to a particuular question. You mention a lot that the EU never mentions how bad the old republic is, and luke and leia never find out about padme. but most of these books you have to look at keeping in mind when they were written. If it was before the prequel trilogy then look at them as n extended original trilogy-nobody really knew that much about the prequels then, therefore it couldn't really be included in the books.

And I think it's en garde, not en guarde. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Jedi Master Harrison:
forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I think i can add some general arguments that aren't specific to a particuular question. You mention a lot that the EU never mentions how bad the old republic is, and luke and leia never find out about padme. but most of these books you have to look at keeping in mind when they were written. If it was before the prequel trilogy then look at them as n extended original trilogy-nobody really knew that much about the prequels then, therefore it couldn't really be included in the books.

And I think it's en garde, not en guarde. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd agree with you, I think your comment was meant to be directed at someone else, I only made one small post in this thread. :wink:

[AnaSkywalker]

Oops..I'm sorry. I mean Konig, who's the one who started this thread. You'll have to excuse me. today is a bad day. My friend mentioned that her classmate did a creative project on the odyssey and included the phrase 'no. i am your father' and i didn't figure it out until my friend told me.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

No worries, we all have days like that! :)

[Cydon]

Koing, I apologize for not replying quicker. Been spending the past 2 hours trying to figure out why my damn video card stopped working for KOTOR.

The Jedi/Sith are what makes SW spin around. Why do not enjoy them?

[Konig15]

Surely the whole point of a fantasy story (which is what the idea for SW originally and still is) is that you can have humans who have learnt how to use powers that aren't realistic in the real world? To me, anyway, that is it's appeal. I think there are still enough human characteristics in the Jedi for us to relate to.

Not to my mind at least. Problem is I majored in history and you see your share of tyrants and monsters. Lots of them, fascinating each in their own way. Jedi don't have to be boring, in fact Corran Horn is one of my favorite characters, but the Sith are. The only fasicnating Sith I've come across are Palps himself, Vader and Revan. They kill, they main, they destroy, so what? It's all blind amibition, and from what I've read that's all there is to the Sith and all the Sith lords.

THEY ARE NOT SYMPATHIC OR FACINATING. This important to good modern storytelling, and the EU by its nature, and legnth has to be modern because old-fashioned story-telling wears itself thin very quickly, and does not lend itself to the modern novel, the vehicle of choice of the EU. In any case, Star Wars itself only becomes really great story telling with 'No. I am your father.' It turns the whole good versus evil dhicotomy on it's ear. Suddenly, Vader was once one of the good guys.

Hell, I think it was Lily here who said she once heard a guy during ATOC saying "I thought Palpatine was supposed to be one of the good guys." When the audience, even a part of it, falls to the same delusion as the characters. We are, even Lucas, modern people. And we know there are only three beings in the universe who are either all good or all evil: God, Christ and the Devil, and I'm not sure about the Devil.

My point, convuluted as it my be, is that these are flat characters. The stories I read were WAY too reliant on Jedi chachainery and not enough on character devolpment and certainly the technoloy is just there for show. The supermen coming to save the day trope is extremely overused. And it's tiring.

If I read comics, I'd be reading Gotham PD, or a superman comic foucing on his life as Kent. I'd love to see an Indiana Jones flick where the love interest saves Indy's ass (not too often of course), and my favorite stories in the EU have always been the 'Tales' trillogy which has NOTHING to do with the Force, or Jedi. I think while there is a market for the other stuff. Focusing on the common people is an unexplioted venue, or has been for a number of years.

[DarthSolo]

I think the LOTF series would provide you with an interesting Sith, Konig. I can see your point (and I am one of the people that thinks SW is more than just fantasy Jedi/Sith stuff), but you can get away from the Sith villains. Frankly, I stay away from most of the comic books and KOTOR area type things, because it all does seem to be just power hungry, 1D villains (forgive me those who are more well acquainted than I), but good villains with depth populate the EU, too. Look at the Yuuzhan Vong. Look at Thrawn. The LOTF series is creating at least one interesting villain, and other possible villains are still veiled in secrecy. There is more than just flat baddies in the GFFA.

[TuskenRaider1]

What makes SW great, and what the EU adds, is a level of depth well beyond the movies. The Movies explain the basics, but there are many of them, not simply good and evil. There is also the responsibility of power, the need for freedom, the morale responsibility of leadership and governance, and the importance of self. There is the need for love on top of power, the need for friendship for true success. There is the need for strength to protect the weak, and a lesson to not abuse it.

The emperor, and the sith, are seen as absolutists. This is where the EU adds to the aspects I mentioned. Remember why the sith came about. Remeber the dynamics involved in power. The EU delves deeper into the mentality of these conflicts, and gives traditional stories a new voice. Who doesnt see echoes in jedi students of a Peter Parker or a Philippe after release from the Iron Mask. Who cannot understand the allusions to the responisbilities of the state against a current contextual situation or against any number of historical struggles. These are not just themes of SW. They are the challanges of life that all authors and storytellers seek to use story to convey.

The EU relies on some tried and true methods of expanding on this. SW is a universe unto itself. It mirrors conflicts we face, and the EU provides stories well beyond Jedi/Sith and Good and Evil. Why dont Jedi rule (look at the DN trilogy). Why dont Sith support a government of the people (Look at historical fears of the masses by governments throughout history, illustrated well by any empire novel or comic in the early years). Look at slavery and the fight for freedom, exemplified by countless comics and allusions in books. ( Personified by Han and Chewie and expanded on in both the Han Solo Trilogy and the Hand of Thrawn Duology with the Jorje Cardass adn the Ang Ti monks.)

The EU gives a level of background and character development necessary to fully appreciate the range of themes in SW. The above is just a small smattering. I can go on for a while on this, and though I know there are disagreements on Canon or other issues, I find the EU to be an essential piece of the story. SW is better for it, and the movies have a better and deeper meaning because of the EU.

[Braden Dar]

First, let me address the character development ideas. To some, characters are flat and undeveloped. To others, they are developed more than enough for the purposes of the stories in which they appear. How can some characters, which only appear in one or two novels, ever be fully developed? Unlike the characters from the Trilogies, they have no actors adding those little quirks and character peculiarities that we all know. An author must decide how much development is enough.
An example, is General A'baht underdeveloped since he is never really shown in another setting or contemplating anything other than a military operation? I think not. That was the pressing role he was in at the time, and it was centering the story where it ought to be, on the conflict with the Yevetha.
Is Admiral Daala underdeveloped? No. Her character is developed as she should be in the stories featuring her. She is a military lend sworn to raise the Empire up from the ashes it has degraded into. Even in Planet Of Twilight. There, she is broken and content to take a good lot of people and go somewhere to rebuild a life that she would enjoy living. Something free of the New Republic.
That is one of the challenges issued here within the EU. I thought I'd hit on some of it before tackling anything more grand.
I'm ready Konig. Let me have your best stuff in return.

[Konig15]

OK, I gotta confess I'm not the hater you may think I am. I liked a great deal of the EU: Bakura, X-Wing, Tales, etc. But I think the EU is more than a tad...underpowered. It's frightenly dependeant for Jedi come save the day. In none of the OT do the Jedi save the day. Luke is not a Jedi when he blows up the DS, R2-D2 is a driod, and then Wedge and Lando blow up DSII. I guess I was spoiled from the X-Wing series, but the others, the more Jedi centric books just couldn't hold my interest and repelled me entirely when Kyp wasn't executed for blowing up Carida.

Yes, Daala gets a personality, somewhat, EVENTUALLY, but it reiforces my point. When's the last time you read an Imperial smile in a way that wasn't threatening? Sing in the shower? Whistle a happy tune? Get drunk? Get laid?

To take one example: in the Maw fasiclity, even if all the Naval personel where male (debateable), the support personel where not. I'd expect someone among nearly a million to have started families in the meantime. Even Roman Legionares did that when they weren't supposed to do so. It's human...it's sapient. I'd also expect the food to feed them all to come from somewhere, but I won't go there. Too much logic.

[AnaSkywalker]

I think you're talking about the later EU novels, which seem really dependent on the jedi. The earlier novels, such as the Han Solo Trilogy, and Splinter of the Mind's eye, the first EU book published, right after a new hope, and during which there are of course no jedi. Just like in the beggining of the OT there were no jedi (well, besides obi wan) and nothing was dependant on them), in the EU at first not everything was dependant on the jedi. It was later, toward episode 6 and the prequel trilogy, that jedi started playing such a huge role in both the movies and the EU, and everything became so dependant on them.

[DarthSolo]

See, Konig, I see that as a natural and realistic evolution of the galaxy and its stories as the Jedi Order becomes established. The PT is focused completely on the Jedi. And the PT books have almost solely Jedi heroes. Why? Because the Jedi Order is established. With the New Jedi Order established, the Jedi take the forefront again.

But I do like it when it's not just them.

[Konig15]

See, Konig, I see that as a natural and realistic evolution of the galaxy and its stories as the Jedi Order becomes established. The PT is focused completely on the Jedi. And the PT books have almost solely Jedi heroes. Why? Because the Jedi Order is established. With the New Jedi Order established, the Jedi take the forefront again.

But I do like it when it's not just them.

That's one reason I don't read the PT EU on principle. I might someday read Repbulic Commando, but...school's in and in hard at the moment. That's also why I don't have Legacy of the Force which you've directed me to.

I do think however, that the pre-eminense of the Jedi is a bad thing. a BAD thing. Tales corrupted me on this; I got to see dancing girls, merchants, bounty hunters, fugitives, and I came to realize the Jedi are the LEAST interesting thing about GL's universe. I loved the politicking of the PT, such as it was, and I would love to have seen more. I'd like to see the lives of Senators, and local fleet commanders, HNN reporters, etc.

[DarthSolo]

I'd love to see all those things, too. See, the problem is that most stories focusing around non-Jedi characters are the events that are generally on the periphery. And usually the most epic stories come from the center of events. And the Jedi, when in existence, are always at the center. That isn't to say that others aren't at the center, but the Jedi do tend to like to take control. Also, people generally want to read the characters they already know, which are Luke, Leia, Han and that clan. The only non-Jedi in that group is Han.


Don't get me wrong, Konig, I want to see the EU take some risks, too. I'd be a strong supporter of something like a re-emergence of books like Tales of the Bounty Hunters or Tales from Jabba's Palace and whatnot. But, unfortunately, Del Rey needs to sell books, and those aren't guaranteed sells right now.

[Cassus Fett]

Sorry but ive got something to say against the new part of the EU. I loved and still love the older EU novels the ones written before the Dark Nest series was written, so thats not in cronological order its when they were written.

DS, thats the major problem with the later EU novels is the re-emergance of other novels under a different title, i feel the imagination has left SW, it seems within any EU novel now there has to be an Empire rise back up causing a Rebellion, which takes place after a Jedi Purge caused by the Empire. Then after that Galactic Civil War has been fought, the Rebellion becomes the Republic who struggle against a remenant Imperial force for awhile before another GCW is fought or something along those lines take place. This is where i see the latest EU series going, ive enjoyed it so far but its just becoming a repeative motion for me, im not sure if anyone else feels the same way.

I do not mean by anyone to Bash the EU because as ive stated i still love the older EU novels .

[DarthSolo]

I very much question you, Cassus. I don't claim to have read every post-ROTJ book, but I'm pretty sure that the LOTF series is portraying the first actual galactic civil war since the, y'know, Galactic Civil War. Am I missing something? I've not read The New Rebellion so maybe that's what you're referring to....

And I really don't see LOTF as being repetitive to the OT era of things. The Empire was purposefully molded from a Republic to an Empire. The GFFA becoming what it is (and it's not the Empire) is just the natural evolution of governments. And Corellia's revolt is really nothing at all like the Rebel Alliance. In this regard, the LOTF books are doing what nothing in the EU has really done before: not giving us a clear side to root for. And that is something that I personally love.

Now I suppose you could make the argument that having Jacen fall is a repetition of Anakin's fall. But that's a pretty surface argument. 1) the similarities are quite powerful, IMO but there are still a lot of differences in the characters and in the motivations and how they do it. 2) People fall, it's just human nature. Someone's got to do it, and the story could not get more interesting and intense with any other character, because Jacen's position within the Skywalker/Solo family is one that will cause some serious drama. Very, very different drama than Anakin's fall.

You may be referring to the Legacy comics, in which case I guess you'd have a bit of a point. Those really seem to be a meshing of the KOTOR era type stuff with some elements of the OT. But there's a lot of new stuff involved there.

Cassus, I gott say, I'm a little in the dark as to what specific sources you've got a problem with for being repetitive. Mind clearing it up?

[eddie]

I completely agree with DS on this matter: I find that everything that is happening on the political front in the newer books (aka further in the timeline) is a natural progression of events... And ofcourse there are some things which seem to have been addressed before, but that is also a natural progression (look at our Earthly history and you see what I mean): but things are diverse enough to stay extremely interesting... And what is happening to Jacen was something which I did not expect, so I was very surprised with this turn of events (and which has me craving for the other books)...

[Cassus Fett]

If you go down to the basic fundimentials of the series, it does appear to be very simular.

Actually you could class any major conflict which has involved the galaxy in a struggle for power a GCW.

Although i will keep reading them and hoping they do not finish up down those same lines.