Was Plagueis Palpatine's Master?

[Obi-wannabe]

I am confused? I read many posts and have people come right out and say that Plagues was Palpitines master. (Most come from guys who swear they don't read the EU, yeah right) I find no evidence from the movies that supports this.

I also read people stating fact that the voice in ATOC that yell " Anakin no!" is Qui Gon Jin. What supports that? Was there a memo I missed?

[ForceFlow]

I am confused? I read many posts and have people come right out and say that Plagues was Palpitines master. (Most come from guys who swear they don't read the EU, yeah right) I find no evidence from the movies that supports this.

I also read people stating fact that the voice in ATOC that yell " Anakin no!" is Qui Gon Jin. What supports that? Was there a memo I missed?

for Q. number 1 people say that when palpantine speaks of the tragedy of Darth Plageus The Wise he seems pleased at the fact that his apprentice killed his master and many assume it was palpantine

for Q number 2 i read the AOTC EU novel it said that yoda was meditating and her heard qui-gon jinn when he felt anakin in great amounts of pain i also recognize the voice.

i hope i helped!

ForceFlow

[James]

Why is this even a debate?
It was Qui-Gon's voice who called for Anakin to stop killing the tuskens:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/

This first battle of the Clone Wars was a victory for the Republic, but Yoda was troubled. Too much had been clouded by the dark side, and the judgment of the Jedi order was perhaps sullied by complacency and arrogance. Not only had many Jedi died on Geonosis, but the very nature of death itself was now unclear to the wise old master. While meditating, Yoda had felt a traumatic event befall young Anakin Skywalker. At that very moment, he also heard the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/quigonjinn/), a Jedi Master slain a decade previous. It was impossible for a Jedi to retain his identity after becoming one with the Force, yet he had heard it.

and yes Plagueis was indeed Palpatine's master.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/palpatine/
Little did anyone suspect how Palpatine had engineered his own rise to power. Hidden beneath a façade of wan smiles and smooth political speeches was a Sith (http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thesith/) Lord. In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon achieving the skill and ability to do so. He then took an apprentice himself, continuing the Sith order in absolute secrecy, right under the noses of the Republic and the Jedi.

[Rabid Whiphid]

people come right out and say that Plagues was Palpitines master. I find no evidence from the movies that supports this.

You are right, there is no DEFINITE evidence in the movies that states, absolutely for certain, that Plagues was Palpatine's Sith Master. But everything about the whole opera box scene makes the implication pretty clear... from the dramatic timing of the background music, to the smug look on Palpatine's face... that when he tells the story of the young Sith apprentice who killed Darth Plagues in his sleep, Palpatine is obviously talking about himself.



I also read people stating fact that the voice in ATOC that yell " Anakin no!" is Qui Gon Jin. What supports that? Was there a memo I missed?


Newsflash! If you own the DVD's you can learn a lot more in-depth info about the movies by listening to the audio commentary track. And as a matter of fact, on the DVD commentary for Ep.2, George Lucas himself states that the voice Yoda hears during his meditation is, in fact, Qui-Gon. You can't get any more official than that.



-

[James]

to Rabid Whiphid you listen.

[GeneralDirection]

Newsflash! If you own the DVD's you can learn a lot more in-depth info about the movies by listening to the audio commentary track. And as a matter of fact, on the DVD commentary for Ep.2, George Lucas himself states that the voice Yoda hears during his meditation is, in fact, Qui-Gon. You can't get any more official than that.


It's also mentioned as Qui-Gon in the screenplay. Plus it's Liam Neeson's voice ...

As for the Plagueis thing, I believe he is confirmed as Palpatine's master in the RotS novelisation, and George Lucas was quite involved with the editing of that novel.

[jayce76]

I also think in the film it's pretty clear as well . . . .

[Mothman]

Why is this even a debate?
It was Qui-Gon's voice who called for Anakin to stop killing the tuskens:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/


and yes Plagueis was indeed Palpatine's master.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/palpatine/

Is the Official Site database canon? Then, this question is answered.

[jayce76]

Hurray!!!!!!!!!!!

[DblDwn]

Why were these questions even asked in the first place? I mean, "Did you get the memo?" :)

If you've seen ROTS you should be able to conclude that Palpatine was referring to himself as the Apprentice in the Opera House. If you've seen AOTC, and know what Liam Neeson's voice sounds like, then you should be able to conclude that it was Darkman who said that.

[Obi-wannabe]

Yeah, yeah all of that junk everyone just said is exactly just that. There is nothing in the actual movie that says it is palpitines master. In fact palpitines states it is a Sith Legend. Legends are usually passed down and it is usually not by a party directly involved. So thank you for giving me the EU quotes guys, you missed the point. I also don't watch evey scene in the extra tracks on a DVD to get explanations of a movie scene. I asked where in the movies is it fact. But truthfully I agree I think it is palpitines master and that it it was Qui Gon screaming, but because that is what I feel and drawn from my own conclusions. It was the point that I keep battling with about people mixing the EU and movies and expecting the casual fan to know such things. Me excluded I am a superfan and never wrong!!:rolleyes:
DD I am fowarding the memo to you :D

[DblDwn]

Thank you for the memo. :)

But in all seriousness I do not follow the EU at all, that much is known around here I think, but I do consider the novels based on the PT to be canon. The main reason being that they are based, for all intents and purposes, on the actual screenplays for the films. So much so that they even include the deleted scenes. That said even if I had not recognized Liam Neeson's voice from AOTC the book states, as has been quoted above, that Yoda hears Qui-Gon's voice (the script even alludes to it if I remember correctly). That much is fact and cannot be argued because it is in the movie.

As far as whether or not Plageus is the Master to Palpatine's Apprentice in the Sith Legend that is up to each individual person to decide on their own I think. I haven't looked at the databank on the website so I cannot confirm or deny what is said but, even then, I do know that there is an EU section that could be under. My own personal opinion is that Palptine is the Apprentice who killed Plageus. As stated above, the musical change and the smirk of self-indulgence that comes across Palpatine's face when he speaks of the Apprentice killing Plageus in his sleep tells me that he is remembering the joy of it as he speaks of it. If you don't buy into that then that's cool. Like I said it's a part of the story that everyone can decide on their own and go from there.

[jayce76]

Get'em DBL . . .

Fight!!!

[James]

DblDwn, look at my post further up where there's stuff I took from the SW.com databank. It says that Plageuis was indeed Palpatine's master.

[jayce76]

So There nonbelievers!!!!!

[DblDwn]

DblDwn, look at my post further up where there's stuff I took from the SW.com databank. It says that Plageuis was indeed Palpatine's master.

I know you said that. I referenced your post in my last one. All I'm saying is that I determined that Plageuis was Palpatine's Master based on the movie alone. I agree with you.

[JMAS]

I love how Star Wars purists rant and rave about the EU being #$@.

The movies would not be what they are without the EU.

•Aayla Secura is an EU creation.
•Quinlan Vos (mentioned in ROTS) is an EU creation
•Coruscant, was a name created by Timothy Zahn and first used in his Thrawn Trilogy.

And as far as levels of canon go, it goes movies first, screenplay/script second, film novelizations third and the SW.com databank fourth. I mean if it's posted in the official website for Star Wars, it's canon.

[DblDwn]

On the contrary the movies would still be exactly as they are without the EU. Sure Aayla Secura and Quinlan Vos are both either in or referenced in the movies but they don't move along the story. The story isn't effected one bit by their presence. And I'll grant you that the name Coruscant originated in the EU but without the EU Lucas would have just chosen his own name for the planet. It would not have effected the story either.

That said your examples of how the movies are dependant upon the EU isn't really that strong of an argument. Enjoy the next book though.

[James]

Yeah have to go with DblDwn on this one. The names Coruscant, Aayla Secure and Quinlan Vos aren't central plot elements, and their presence didn't affect the story one little bit. George could just as easily have invented his own characters.

[Rabid Whiphid]

I love how Star Wars purists rant and rave about the EU being #$@.

The movies would not be what they are without the EU..

'The movies would not be what they are without the EU'???? Are you kidding??? I could not disagree with this statement more. The EU has done nothing for SW except to give SW fandom an aura of nerdinss as bad as Trekkies.



•Aayla Secura is an EU creation..


Aayla's a neat looking character, she's aesthetically pleasing on screen, and she looks good in action figure form on my bookshelf. But big whoop. If it hadn't been her, they woulda cooked up a different hot chick Jedi.



•Quinlan Vos (mentioned in ROTS) is an EU creation.


And how does the mention of his name contribute anything to ROTS if you've never heard of the character and don't give a crap about him? They coulda named any other Jedi character not currently stationed on Coruscant and it would have been no different.




•Coruscant, was a name created by Timothy Zahn and first used in his Thrawn Trilogy.


Again, big whoop. Admittedly the name Coruscant has a nice ring to it. But if it hadn't been that, they woulda come up with another name that had an equally nice ring to it.

My point is, all these things are neat little touches that, yes, came from other creative people outside LFL, but to say that "the movies wouldn't have been what they are" without them stretches credulity to the breaking point. Love your boring, unnecessarily convoluted EU if you must, but please, man, give the movies a little more credit!


-

[jayce76]

How do we Know that George didn't have a hand in these things , after all he's very involveled in his Motion Picture Space Serial . . . .

So take that E.U.!!!!!!

[Mothman]

.....The movies would not be what they are without the EU.....

The EU would not be what it is without the movies.

[Master Magnus]

That Darth Plagueis was Palpatine's master does not originate from the EU. In the Revenge of the Sith novelization, which was line edited by George Lucas, it's stated by Palpatine in the "revelation" scene that: "Darth Plagueis was my Master".


How do we Know that George didn't have a hand in these things , after all he's very involveled in his Motion Picture Space Serial . . . .
Yes, George Lucas is involved to a certain degree. He issues guidelines on what can or cannot be done in the EU and has even made a small number of direct contributions. He is also the one who approves the story lines and he has been more or less involved in all the publishing (on major plot points and concepts, at least up until the NJO). Of course, Lucas has also used names (such as Coruscant) and characters (Aayla Secura) which were created by EU authors. However, that's a subject which is better discussed in the Relevance of the EU (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=11636) thread.

[jayce76]

Thanks Magnus . . .

Nuff said!

[jayce76]

Personally I think the E.U. has done more harm to Star wars than not. It turned a generation of great fan into a bunch of scene disecting, word counting , obnoxious ubernerd trekies. . . .

Who have turned a great Series into another laughable outlet for geekdom . . .

[James]

jayce, do you have to keep posting in large font? it starts to lose its impact after awhile.

but i do agree that the EU has made lovers of SW into geeks in the popular mind.

[jayce76]

YES!!!!!!!!

[matthius]

but i do agree that the EU has made lovers of SW into geeks in the popular mind.
So when you tell 'popular' people that you're a SW fan, do they really care if your a non-EU or just plain movie fan(1. no people don't care 2. when I bring SW books to school for english, most people don't even know that SW books were/are written). So in reality I wouldn't say the EU has geeked-up SW.

[Obi-wannabe]

Explain to me who or what is a Quinlan Vos, and an Aayla Secura. I must have missed the memo on them completely.

By the way sorry for the incorrect spelling on Palpatine and Plageuis.:blush:

[Rabid Whiphid]

Personally I think the E.U. has done more harm to Star wars than not. It turned a generation of great fan into a bunch of scene disecting, word counting , obnoxious ubernerd trekies. . . .

Who have turned a great Series into another laughable outlet for geekdom . . .



Yes, I absolutely agree. Many of us older, "first generation" Star Wars fans can recall a time in the late seventies and early eighties - a time impossible to imagine today - when you were only considered a nerd if you liked Star Trek, but you were cool if you liked Star Wars.

Over the years, the EU has done a lot to destroy that distinction, and make Star Wars fans and Trekkies synonymous. It's sad. We are now regarded as that which we once ridiculed.

[jayce76]

I really wish it weren't so . . . .

[James]

yeah it's a shame...

[Rabid Whiphid]

So when you tell 'popular' people that you're a SW fan, do they really care if your a non-EU or just plain movie fan(1. no people don't care 2. when I bring SW books to school for english, most people don't even know that SW books were/are written). So in reality I wouldn't say the EU has geeked-up SW.



You miss the point.

Here's the problem in a nutshell: The overwhelming majority of the EU material tends to be in the style of "Hard Sci Fi" - a genre for people who need their fantasy entertainment to make clear logistical sense and be scientifically plausable in order to be enjoyed. Hard Sci Fi fans feel an obsessive need for exhaustive explanations of the histories of all the planets and characters, and the logic behind all the technology, in a fictional story. They take comfort in the assurance that all these things click together, which they assume must mean that their chosen entertainments are intelligent, and therefore respectable works.

These people tend to be geeks.

But the movies, which are the true heart and soul of the Star Wars phenomenon, are not hard sci-fi. Rather, they are pure "space opera" (action adventure tales that just so happen to take place in outer space). They do not bother to explain their logic at every turn. They stay focused on the action and the emotions. They do not concern themselves with explaining how the spaceship's engines work. They simply yell "punch it!" and blast into hyperspace. Or experience engine failure, and go into spaceship chase scene and/or battle mode, which is even more fun. Despite all of their family drama and political intrigue, the SW movies, at their heart, are simply visual and aural rollercoaster rides, and that is all they were intended to be.

Geeky fans of Hard Sci Fi find this sort of free-wheeling fun without any scientific plausability to back it up, very difficult to digest.

If Star Wars consisted only of these space opera movies, geeks would watch them once or twice to see what all the fuss was about, dismiss them as well-executed, but ultimately brainless special effects shows, and go away. We would perhaps later find them immersed in altogether more sensible entertainments, such as an episode of Star Trek, or a novel by Larry Niven, Arthur C. Clarke, or Isaac Asimov.

And Star Wars fans, who don't care what species Yoda is, but just want to see him hop around with his sword, could watch our movies and wear our Darth Vader t-shirt once in a while, and... and maybe even have a plastic Boba Fett standing on our bookshelf... without being considered some kind of socially inept nerd.

But instead, we have the EU. And for every logistical or scientific question that any intellectual (or pseudo intellectual) nerd can possibly raise about the movies, there seems to be an overly convoluted EU book to provide an overly convoluted answer. Thus transforming Star Wars in their minds from an amusing cartoon, into a whole new universe to obsess and intellectualize (or pseudo-intellectualize) over.

In summary, the EU bridges the gap between the analytical hard sci-fi fan and the much looser, freer space opera. And in so doing, the EU has attracted an enormous audience of nerds to a film series that they would otherwise have far less interest in.

It is this now-enormous segment of the audience, which frequently appears to be as socially inept as they are visible, that has given SW fandom a bad name.


Before you get all mad at me for floating this theory and slam me, America, please note that I am speaking in general terms here. Obviously there are a lot of people who probably enjoy the EU books a great deal who are not the sort of geeks I describe above. I am generalizing. If you're an EU reader and you don't feel this theory applies to you, chances are it probably doesn't. But you gotta admit there are a lot of other freaks out there who it fits like a glove. And don't even think about arguing that they aren't socially inept. Have you seen the costumes that they wear to those conventions?



-

[James]

couldn't agree with Rabid Whiphid more - the EU has completely "Trekkyised" the nature of Star Wars.

[Master Magnus]

Explain to me who or what is a Quinlan Vos, and an Aayla Secura. I must have missed the memo on them completely.

By the way sorry for the incorrect spelling on Palpatine and Plageuis.:blush:
Aayla Secura is the Twi'Lek female Jedi Knight who was killed on the planet Felucia during the Order 66 montage in ROTS. She had a minor appearance in AOTC as well. She was created by writer John Ostrander and artist Jan Duursema and first appeared in the comic Star Wars Republic #19: Twilight in the year 2000. George Lucas liked the character so much that he included her in AOTC and ROTS and her outfit and appearance is exactly the same as in the comics. Although her name isn't mentioned in either movie, her name appears in George Lucas' screenplays for AOTC and ROTS as well as in the novelizations of the movies.

Quinlan Vos is a male Jedi Master who, like Aayla Secura, was created by writer John Ostrander and artist Jan Duursema and first appeared in the comic Star Wars Republic #17: Mission to Malastare in the year 2000 (although a background character in TPM has been retconned to be Quinlan Vos).
George Lucas planned to include Master Vos in the Order 66 montage and wrote a scene in which he was killed by cannon fire from a Clone Turbo Tank. ILM produced animatics for the scene, but this scene, along with other Order 66 scenes, wasn't used when the montage was shortened. However, Obi-Wan still makes a passing reference to Quinlan Vos in the movie (during the scene in the Jedi Briefing Room): "... Master Vos has moved his troops to Boz Pity"

Anyway, to take this back on topic. If people doubt that Plagueis was Palpatine's master, then rewatching the Opera scene and Palpatine's smirk removes any doubts.

[Rabid Whiphid]

a background character in TPM has been retconned to be Quinlan Vos


Which character and what scene is that? I've never heard about this before.

[Master Magnus]

Which character and what scene is that? I've never heard about this before.
It's a background character at Mos Espa.

EDIT: Wookieepedia has this (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:QuinlanVos-ThePantomMenace.jpg) in the Quinlan Vos article.

[Obi-wannabe]

You miss the point.

Here's the problem in a nutshell: The overwhelming majority of the EU material tends to be in the style of "Hard Sci Fi" - a genre for people who need their fantasy entertainment to make clear logistical sense and be scientifically plausable in order to be enjoyed. Hard Sci Fi fans feel an obsessive need for exhaustive explanations of the histories of all the planets and characters, and the logic behind all the technology, in a fictional story. They take comfort in the assurance that all these things click together, which they assume must mean that their chosen entertainments are intelligent, and therefore respectable works.

These people tend to be geeks.

But the movies, which are the true heart and soul of the Star Wars phenomenon, are not hard sci-fi. Rather, they are pure "space opera" (action adventure tales that just so happen to take place in outer space). They do not bother to explain their logic at every turn. They stay focused on the action and the emotions. They do not concern themselves with explaining how the spaceship's engines work. They simply yell "punch it!" and blast into hyperspace. Or experience engine failure, and go into spaceship chase scene and/or battle mode, which is even more fun. Despite all of their family drama and political intrigue, the SW movies, at their heart, are simply visual and aural rollercoaster rides, and that is all they were intended to be.

Geeky fans of Hard Sci Fi find this sort of free-wheeling fun without any scientific plausability to back it up, very difficult to digest.

If Star Wars consisted only of these space opera movies, geeks would watch them once or twice to see what all the fuss was about, dismiss them as well-executed, but ultimately brainless special effects shows, and go away. We would perhaps later find them immersed in altogether more sensible entertainments, such as an episode of Star Trek, or a novel by Larry Niven, Arthur C. Clarke, or Isaac Asimov.

And Star Wars fans, who don't care what species Yoda is, but just want to see him hop around with his sword, could watch our movies and wear our Darth Vader t-shirt once in a while, and... and maybe even have a plastic Boba Fett standing on our bookshelf... without being considered some kind of socially inept nerd.

But instead, we have the EU. And for every logistical or scientific question that any intellectual (or pseudo intellectual) nerd can possibly raise about the movies, there seems to be an overly convoluted EU book to provide an overly convoluted answer. Thus transforming Star Wars in their minds from an amusing cartoon, into a whole new universe to obsess and intellectualize (or pseudo-intellectualize) over.

In summary, the EU bridges the gap between the analytical hard sci-fi fan and the much looser, freer space opera. And in so doing, the EU has attracted an enormous audience of nerds to a film series that they would otherwise have far less interest in.

It is this now-enormous segment of the audience, which frequently appears to be as socially inept as they are visible, that has given SW fandom a bad name.


Before you get all mad at me for floating this theory and slam me, America, please note that I am speaking in general terms here. Obviously there are a lot of people who probably enjoy the EU books a great deal who are not the sort of geeks I describe above. I am generalizing. If you're an EU reader and you don't feel this theory applies to you, chances are it probably doesn't. But you gotta admit there are a lot of other freaks out there who it fits like a glove. And don't even think about arguing that they aren't socially inept. Have you seen the costumes that they wear to those conventions?



-
I think you nailed it. Very nicely done!! Just like in the story there is a thin line between the darkside and the lightside, just as there is a thinline between superfan and supergeek. Again, great post.

[Zedekk]

I, like Obi-wannabe, got hung up on the word "Legend" when Palpatine was telling his "sith story" to Anakin. And that being the case interpreted or mis-interpreted his smirk to be one of recalling that almost all Sith Masters can fall to the hands of the ambitious apprenti they have taken on to mentor. So I can relate to Obi's confusion about the Plaguies-Sidious connection, and not see how it is very "self-evident" otherwise.

[jayce76]

I think in a nutshell you could just say to your E.U. friends:

Star Wars - fun , crazy space serial , origins are Flash Gordon & Space adventure comic books. No explanations needed. . .

Star trek - everything has a purpose and a use. Supose to be Mankind traveling throught space in the late 23rd and 24 century . . .

[Zedekk]

^ hear, hear! :thumbs-up: :cheers:

[jayce76]

Thanks Zedekk . . .

I just have a friend who's into that and he's really obnoxious. I have to verbally smack'em around from time to time . . .

[Rabid Whiphid]

I, like Obi-wannabe, got hung up on the word "Legend" when Palpatine was telling his "sith story" to Anakin. And that being the case interpreted or mis-interpreted his smirk to be one of recalling that almost all Sith Masters can fall to the hands of the ambitious apprenti they have taken on to mentor. So I can relate to Obi's confusion about the Plaguies-Sidious connection, and not see how it is very "self-evident" otherwise.


I can see that. But personally, what I like best, (in this case at least) is NOT having the answer. Sometimes ambiguity, speculation, and a mystery left open to interpretation, is way more interesting than having every scrap of information mapped out for you, and having all story threads tied up with a neat little bow.

[jayce76]

Absolutley . . I think it's weakminded and lazy to have to have the filmaker throw every scrap of info in your face.

[Zedekk]

I can see that. But personally, what I like best, (in this case at least) is NOT having the answer. Sometimes ambiguity, speculation, and a mystery left open to interpretation, is way more interesting than having every scrap of information mapped out for you, and having all story threads tied up with a neat little bow.

I totaly agree with you, Whiphid. Thats why I was surprised and confused at the constant refrences to Sidious and Plagueis being Master and Apprentice.

[Darth Octavious]

But you know, its his story and in 2008 we all can read about.

[jayce76]

what?

[Darth Octavious]

Star Wars - George's story. James Luceno is going to write the story of Plagueis - its coming out in 2008.

http://starwars.com/eu/lit/novel/news20060608.html

[Tovor]

Star Wars - George's story. James Luceno is going to write the story of Plagueis - its coming out in 2008.

http://starwars.com/eu/lit/novel/news20060608.html
That should be interesting. It's certainly going to answer one of many fan's biggest questions from the last few years, how Palpatine became a Sith. On the other hand, Lucas had said, I think, that Palpatine's history would remain a mystery like Yoda's origin, and Darth Maul as well. I hope Luceno makes this a solid story.

[jayce76]

Hurray for Uncle George!!!

[Mike N]

On the other hand, Lucas had said, I think, that Palpatine's history would remain a mystery like Yoda's origin, and Darth Maul as well.

Personally, I'd prefer if they'd leave it unsaid. One of the things that somewhat irks me about the EU is that it destroys the "mystique" of the films. I like it when some things are left to the imagination.

Before I get dogpiled, I know that the obvious solution is to just pay it no heed. But in talking with other SW fans, you're bound to come across the book's information and get your mental images busted.

[jayce76]

True , . . .

No dogpile here , I think you got it on the right mate!

[Rabid Whiphid]

Personally, I'd prefer if they'd leave it unsaid. One of the things that somewhat irks me about the EU is that it destroys the "mystique" of the films. I like it when some things are left to the imagination.

Before I get dogpiled, I know that the obvious solution is to just pay it no heed. But in talking with other SW fans, you're bound to come across the book's information and get your mental images busted.



I agree with Mike N all the way on this subject. Personally though, I'm not bothered if I hear from some know-it-all EU fan trying to tell me the "true story" of Darth Maul or Yoda or Palpatine's origins, because as far as I'm concerned the EU is crap. Here's my strategy... All of that annoying, nerdy, confusing, self-contradictory EU nonsense goes away if you simply adopt the philosophy of "If it didn't happen in the movies, it doesn't count." And the great thing about the movies is, all the parts that are best left ambiguous and shrouded in mystery, are left exactly that.

[Obi-wannabe]

I agree with Mike N all the way on this subject. Personally though, I'm not bothered if I hear from some know-it-all EU fan trying to tell me the "true story" of Darth Maul or Yoda or Palpatine's origins, because as far as I'm concerned the EU is crap. Here's my strategy... All of that annoying, nerdy, confusing, self-contradictory EU nonsense goes away if you simply adopt the philosophy of "If it didn't happen in the movies, it doesn't count." And the great thing about the movies is, all the parts that are best left ambiguous and shrouded in mystery, are left exactly that.

That statement "the EU is crap" is quite harsh.:eek:

[Mike N]

I agree with Mike N all the way on this subject. Personally though, I'm not bothered if I hear from some know-it-all EU fan trying to tell me the "true story" of Darth Maul or Yoda or Palpatine's origins, because as far as I'm concerned the EU is crap.

That example was what set my mind into this view; the idea of Palpatine and Yoda. They're the supreme good and the supreme evil. They're always in come sort of conflict, whether it's Jedi under Yoda's leadership fighting Sith, or Yoda's using Luke to turn Vader from the Emperor.

Here's my strategy... All of that annoying, nerdy, confusing, self-contradictory EU nonsense goes away if you simply adopt the philosophy of "If it didn't happen in the movies, it doesn't count." And the great thing about the movies is, all the parts that are best left ambiguous and shrouded in mystery, are left exactly that.

I'm fine with the level of canonicity that it has now. Though I just wish that Lucasfilm would up their standrads a little. A layered canonicity of the books would be good, the best novels being only seconded to the films, and the others being lower on the scale.

While I don't enjoy it as a whole, it does come out with the occasional gem like Dark Lord. Possibly because the book shows us a little more or the actual story of Anakin/Vader's corruption. That and Tales of The Bounty Hunters are the only books I could be arsed reading. Some of the plots of various other books have put me off the genre. Like the cloned Palpatine, which completely screws up the relevance of Anakin's sacrifice.

[DblDwn]

That statement "the EU is crap" is quite harsh.:eek:

But extremely accurate.

Great post Rabid.

[JMAS]

On the contrary the movies would still be exactly
That said your examples of how the movies are dependant upon the EU isn't really that strong of an argument. Enjoy the next book though.

I actually didn't say the movies are dependant on the EU. They absolutely are not. BUT, they would not be what they are, right now, what we all love, without the EU.

[JMAS]

But extremely accurate.

Great post Rabid.

And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Even if it's wrong. ;)

[James]

but i mean who really gives a damn if Quinlan Vos was mentioned or if Aayla Secura was on screen even though she is nice to look at? George does absolutely NOT base his ideas on EU stuff.

[Rabid Whiphid]

While I don't enjoy it as a whole, it does come out with the occasional gem like Dark Lord. Possibly because the book shows us a little more or the actual story of Anakin/Vader's corruption. That and Tales of The Bounty Hunters are the only books I could be arsed reading. Some of the plots of various other books have put me off the genre. Like the cloned Palpatine, which completely screws up the relevance of Anakin's sacrifice.


I love the bounty hunter Bossk. Just simply because I think he's a great-looking creature design. And because he was one of my favorite Star Wars action figures when I was a kid. Always wanted to see more of him in the movies, just because I thought he seemed so cool. But you know what, to this day, after almost thirty years - 4 seconds of him snarling in ESB... is still all I get. And I can live with that.

And while I've not read "Tales of the Bounty Hunters" or whatever it's called, I have no doubt that there's probably a Bossk story in there somewhere. And yes, I am going to be dead straight honest with you, and admit that, even as an EU hater by nature, I've always been curious to pick up that book, just to find that Bossk story and read it, too, just to get me some more Bossk.

But... the thing that always stops me is... 4 seconds of snarling is open to a LOT of interpretation. The odds of some nameless hack writer's extrapolations of the bounty hunter Bossk jibing with MY personal impressions of the bounty hunter Bossk, is three thousand, seven hundred and twenty to one.

So, what would be the point of me ever reading that story, and listening to some nobody tell me that Bossk did this and Bossk did that, if it conflicts with the impression (albeit imagined) that I formulated in my own mind, which made me like that character in the first place?

It would be one thing if GL had put Bossk into the PT and expanded on the character and gave us more info about him. Undoubtedly, some of that new info would conflict with my own imagined ideas about who that ugly yellow monster is. But if it was in the movies, if I knew that GL, the creator of SW, wrote and directed it, I would be forced to say, "Okay, well, I guess that was something I just never knew about that character before, and will have to accept." (This is what hapened for me with Boba Fett after I saw AOTC.)

But if it's just the product of some hack writer crapping out 12 pages of double spaced text over a weekend and getting it published in a children's paperback book... anything it says in there that goes against the idea I've had of Bossk since I was 8 years old is naturally gonna make me say, "Naw, dude, that ain't Bossk. You don't know Bossk. Get outta here."

Not to say that the vision of Bossk written by me would be any more worthwhile than that of the guy who wrote the Bossk story in that book, either. But what I am saying, is that his story will be nothing more than some junk he made up just like my ideas about Bossk are just junk I made up. That guy just had the opportunity to get his junk published first, that's all. And because LFL wants to rake in a pile of easy money by selling a book full of short stories about SW bounty hunters, and because nothing in that guy's Bossk story wildly contradicts anything in the movie, GL signs off on the bounty hunter book and it becomes "canon" or whatever.

But at the end of the day... if it contradicts the idea I've had of Bossk since I was 8 years old, lying on my bedroom floor playing with my Kenner Star Wars figures... well then, it ain't Bossk to me! So my point is... why waste any time at all, reading a hack novel that I can bet 99.9% positive won't work for me?

And that's why I see no value in the EU.

The SW movies are filled with wonderfully mysterious areas of ambiguity - blank spaces where each viewer can "fill in the blanks" with their own individual interpretations of the characters and plot issues. The biography of the bounty hunter Bossk is just one extremely minor example of this. And like every single non-EU-reading fan out there, I've filled in those blanks in my own way, based on my own understanding of the info delivered strictly in the films. This naturally provides the most satisfying answers to me personally, and thus makes the movies most enjoyable for me personally.

So I ask, what use does the EU have if it bickers with that most enjoyable, personal interpretation? None to me, I can tell you that.

And furthermore, yes, I agree, many of the EU plot ideas I've heard about from various EU reading friends, such as the one cited above by Mike N regarding the cloned Palpatine, or the one about the death of Chewbacca... it all undermines the very clear, complete story told in the films. ...And so does that green rabbit alien in the Marvel Comics. Look into that storyline, and then try arguing the relevance of the EU.

Nah, heck with all that nonsense. I'd rather just watch Bossk snarl for 4 seconds and move on with my life.

-

-

[DblDwn]

BUT, they would not be what they are, right now, what we all love, without the EU.

Yes they would. But if you are a fan that needs the EU to clarify everything for you because you are not interested in using your own imagination to formulate your own interpretations of the unanswered then more power to you. Whatever works right?

[DblDwn]

And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Even if it's wrong. ;)

See that right there is the difference between me and you. I have never once stated that people that follow the EU are "wrong" but, even though you attempt to cover it up with a smiley, you have to resort to calling me "wrong" for not following the EU. To each is own.

[Obi-wannabe]

But extremely accurate.

Great post Rabid.

Not you too. I know we have been down this road before but The Clone Wars is part of the EU. Do you really think that that is crap?

[Rabid Whiphid]

Not you too. I know we have been down this road before but The Clone Wars is part of the EU. Do you really think that that is crap?


Great counterpoint. Perhaps I didn't express myself well or perhaps you misunderstood me on this.

There's no question that the (first season) of The Clone Wars animated series is an example of a well-made piece of work. Very entertaining to watch. But when I say "The EU is crap" I am referring to its relevance as part of the overall SW storyline. I liked the Clone Wars cartoon, but it's hard to take it seriously as a portrayal of something that "really happened" in this story, if only because it shows Jedis demonstrating outrageously exaggerrated versions of the powers they have in the movies (see the Mace Windu episode for example). If you accept The Clone Wars cartoon as things that "really happened" then you have to ask ridiculous questions about why the Jedi didn't use those same crazy abilities when faced with armies of battle droids and clone troopers in the movies. If they had those same powers in the movies that they have in the cartoons, it becomes inconceiveable why they wouldn't use them or how they could have lost in Ep.3. Trying to rationalize that stuff just gets silly after a while. So, sure, The (first season) Clone Wars cartoon is a fun cartoon to watch. But I don't accept it as a part of the "real" story, any more than I would consider the 1980's Ewoks or Droids cartoons part of the "real" story. You know what I mean?

So again, please let me clarify this - my statement that "the Eu is crap" was not intended to refer to quality of EU works so much as their relevance to the story.

But that said, I did actually think the second season of the clone wars cartoon was kinda crappy.

-

[James]

You're kind of similar to be Rabid. I've always had a great interest in captain Antilles who got choked to death by Vader at the beginning of ANH and was ordered by Bail to wipe 3PO's memory at the end of ROTS. But I can live with what we see of him in the film.

But do you know what really grates?? Chewie's death. It sucks.

[Zedekk]

Chewie is NOT Dead!!!! I don't care how the EU wrote it, its not true

[Darth Octavious]

The Clone Wars cartoons in 2007 and the Live Action in ????, will that be considered as EU or part of the SW saga story? Especially if George writes/improves the stories.

[Rabid Whiphid]

But do you know what really grates?? Chewie's death. It sucks.


Man, I've felt that way about 99.9% of everything I've ever heard, read, or seen out of the EU. It all just feels completely untrue to the spirit of the SW films.

In fact, I can only name 2 EU things I've ever witnessed that I actually enjoyed: Boba Fett's escape from the Sarlacc Pit, as depicted in the old 1983 Star Wars Marvel Comics, and the first season of the Clone Wars cartoon. Oh yeah, and I heard that there was a scene in one of the novels where Boba Fett got into a scrap with IG-88 and blew him away. That seemed like kind of a cool idea. But there my appreciation for the EU ends.




-

[Obi-wannabe]

Great counterpoint. Perhaps I didn't express myself well or perhaps you misunderstood me on this.

There's no question that the (first season) of The Clone Wars animated series is an example of a well-made piece of work. Very entertaining to watch. But when I say "The EU is crap" I am referring to its relevance as part of the overall SW storyline. I liked the Clone Wars cartoon, but it's hard to take it seriously as a portrayal of something that "really happened" in this story, if only because it shows Jedis demonstrating outrageously exaggerrated versions of the powers they have in the movies (see the Mace Windu episode for example). If you accept The Clone Wars cartoon as things that "really happened" then you have to ask ridiculous questions about why the Jedi didn't use those same crazy abilities when faced with armies of battle droids and clone troopers in the movies. If they had those same powers in the movies that they have in the cartoons, it becomes inconceiveable why they wouldn't use them or how they could have lost in Ep.3. Trying to rationalize that stuff just gets silly after a while. So, sure, The (first season) Clone Wars cartoon is a fun cartoon to watch. But I don't accept it as a part of the "real" story, any more than I would consider the 1980's Ewoks or Droids cartoons part of the "real" story. You know what I mean?

So again, please let me clarify this - my statement that "the Eu is crap" was not intended to refer to quality of EU works so much as their relevance to the story.

But that said, I did actually think the second season of the clone wars cartoon was kinda crappy.

-

I hear ya and understood where you were coming from. Believe me, I am not a big EU fan. But there are a few things I read and enjoy. The point of this thread was me just pointing out things that are not concrete facts in the movies and they should be left up to the movie watchers imagination but some fans push beliefs on you as if it is common knowlege or fact. I don't have time to watch all deleted scenes, interviews, read all bios, books, etc. I did not think it would be EU V.s basic movie fan.

The movies do not need the EU. The EU can compliment the movies if the fan wants them too. They can also destroy credibility to the saga. If the fan chooses to ignore or embrace the EU thats cool.

[DblDwn]

The Clone Wars cartoons in 2007 and the Live Action in ????, will that be considered as EU or part of the SW saga story? Especially if George writes/improves the stories.

As Rabid said above I would not consider the Clone Wars cartoons canon just because of the ridiculous extremes that are unheard of in the movies. That is probably why I only watched one episode and, while I entended to watch more for entertainments sake, I never have.

The TV show is complicated. It helps to make it canon that Lucas is directly involved right down to the actual scripts. It also lends a tremendous amount of credibility to the TV show that it isn't going to feature any of the main characters. That said, for myself, I will probably refrain from drawing a conclusion until after the show has premiered. But it does show promise to be canon.

[RollaFett]

Couldn't agree more with the last 3 posts!
The EU is fine and dandy for some extra doses of SW for those who need it, but the films would still what they are regardless of the EU books. I will concede, however, that the introduction of the EU in the early 90's probably assisted in generating some buzz for the franchise when it was obviously lacking at the time. That buzz, in turn, probably played a role in GL's deciscion to make the PT. But all of that is speculation on my part.

[James]

Chewie lives.

[jayce76]

What happened to this thread?

[James]

can you just type normal font size jayce, it gets a bit annoying when you keep typing large and bold all the time.

[jayce76]

Why is that exactly? Just for your own taste?

[DblDwn]

Why is that exactly?

It's called common courtesy.

[jayce76]

Teach me the way Masta . . .

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7148/hjqt6.png (http://imageshack.us)

[DblDwn]

Where did you get my picture at?

[blacksaber]

For sure. Palpatine definately was Pelagious's apprentice. If not obvious enough when he says it it totally sets up ROTJ when Vader kills Palpy.

[DblDwn]

:eek::confused:

[JediBendu]

For sure. Palpatine definately was Pelagious's apprentice. If not obvious enough when he says it it totally sets up ROTJ when Vader kills Palpy.

one could say his arrogance blinded him :p

[Zedekk]

For sure. Palpatine definately was Pelagious's apprentice. If not obvious enough when he says it it totally sets up ROTJ when Vader kills Palpy.

I'm failing to see the connection here can you expand on your obvious reasons for this, please?

[Obi-wannabe]

I'm failing to see the connection here can you expand on your obvious reasons for this, please?

I am asssuming he is maki ng the connection of the apprentice killing his master. Which was kind of the point of this thread. It seems most times the apprentice either attempts to kill his master or talks an awful lot abot it. So my original question before the EU took over is what made any movie goer so sure Plageous was palps master.

[Master Magnus]

This is one of the things that I'm sure they consulted George Lucas about (as it's known that GL is informed on every EU project).

[Darth Massacrus]

Massacrus here. You better believe that the EU affects the movies. it tells us the backstory of what happens during, before, and after the films. Nowhere in the Original Trilogy is it possible to hear the term Sith. But you hear it in the Prequel in every film. Why? Because of the EU! if the Sith do not involve the movies, then nothing does. The entire prequel deals with the rise of the Sith and thier plot against the Jedi, a plot that originates in the EU. Massacrus out.

[DblDwn]

What are you a DJ or something? "This is Wolfman Massacrus signing off"

Just playing. I see your argument, and you make a strong one at that, but I have to disagree. Sure Lucas took some names from the EU but that means nothing. If there was no EU then Lucas would have came up with his own names for these things. The actual saga itself, the story of all 6 episodes together, is not affected one bit by the EU.

That's not my opinion. That's a fact.

[Darth Massacrus]

The fact is is that because there IS an Eu and that it DID imapct the movies, is Fact, and that there essentially would be no Revenge of the Sith had there been no EU. ask anyone else on this site. George Lucas himself was involved with the creation of damn near every EU source, especially those involving Sith, just like the Prequel, which is essentially a tale of how the Sith from the EU exact thier revenge for their EU defeats. So if you cant see that the Eu influences the films, then you, madame, are blind!

[DblDwn]

Madame? Not only are you wrong on this subject but you don't even know what gender I am. We usually check member pages for gender before we assume that someone is a male or female. Unless it is overly obvious of course. Also I could care less of you mistake me for Heidi Fleiss but don't say things like I'm "blind" if we disagree on something. There's your first two free lessons. Don't assume. Don't insult. You've now passed Galactic Senate 101.

And the EU did not "impact" the movies. You are more than welcome to think that if you wish but you are wrong. Star Wars would still be Star Wars without the EU whereas there would be no EU without Star Wars. So if one impacted the other it was hands down the other way around my friend.

[Zedekk]

I can't see how the EU influences the blind, I mean the movies. The movies are stand alone untouched by ANY EU author. I don't see any evidence that one single book (or word for that matter) impacted any movie. Wheres the evidence? Bring forth your proof, if it is so very blatant in fact.

P.S. does this icon make me look blind?:cool:

[James]

I totally agree with Dbl-Dwn and Zedekk. I hate the EU with a passion and the movies stand ALONE!!!

[DblDwn]

Just to clarify I don't hate the EU, nor do I have anything against it or those who choose to read it, but I choose to not follow it.

But James and Zeddek are spot on regarding this. The movies do stand alone and there is nothing from the EU that had a direct influence on the story of not just the PT but the saga as a whole.

[Obi-wannabe]

I can't see how the EU influences the blind, I mean the movies. The movies are stand alone untouched by ANY EU author. I don't see any evidence that one single book (or word for that matter) impacted any movie. Wheres the evidence? Bring forth your proof, if it is so very blatant in fact.

P.S. does this icon make me look blind?:cool:

Since you asked for proof. Wasn't General Grievous an EU created character?:devil:

P.S. The glasses do not make you look blind.

[James]

Grievous an eu character?? big whoop! GL didn't have to choose him as a character, he could just as easily have invented his own character.

[Master Magnus]

Since you asked for proof. Wasn't General Grievous an EU created character?:devil:

P.S. The glasses do not make you look blind.
No, General Grievous wasn't originally an EU character. This thread can't devolve in yet another discussion about the merits of the EU. Discuss the issue at hand.

[Zedekk]

:bow: thankyou for keeping us on track.

[Obi-wannabe]

No, General Grievous wasn't originally an EU character. This thread can't devolve in yet another discussion about the merits of the EU. Discuss the issue at hand.


Really? I thought Greivous made his appearance in the Clone Wars cartoon. An EU project. I may be inncorrect. I am no expert.
I hardly think the thread has "devolved" as you say, it definatley generated interest whether on or off topic. But I do agree it is off topic, but that sometimes happens. The thread is obviously attatched to the EU

[Darth Massacrus]

Just read Labyrinth of Evil. the novel tells exactly what happens during the days before ROTS, and specifaically states that Sidious' master was Darth Plagueis. It also happens to be the first mention of Plagueis in any source, and was released before the film, but that cant mean anything...

[Tovor]

...Nowhere in the Original Trilogy is it possible to hear the term Sith. But you hear it in the Prequel in every film. Why? Because of the EU! if the Sith do not involve the movies, then nothing does. The entire prequel deals with the rise of the Sith and thier plot against the Jedi, a plot that originates in the EU. Massacrus out.
Not so fast there. The Sith was concieved by Lucas prior to the original Star Wars film in 1977. In the A New Hope novel, it specifically says that Vader was a dark lord of the Sith. It is true that the original trilogy does not use the term "Sith" in any of the films, but the Sith were mentioned in the movie novelizations and all materials related to the original trilogy films. The EU involved the Sith because Lucas created the name and the concept for the backstories to the films, backstories which he came up with and jotted down roughly prior to ANH was begun filming.

What are you a DJ or something? "This is Wolfman Massacrus signing off"

Just playing. I see your argument, and you make a strong one at that, but I have to disagree. Sure Lucas took some names from the EU but that means nothing. If there was no EU then Lucas would have came up with his own names for these things. The actual saga itself, the story of all 6 episodes together, is not affected one bit by the EU.

That's not my opinion. That's a fact.
Well, some small parts were the result of the EU, though not in the actual plot and main characters. The name Coruscant was created by Timothy Zahn for his trilogy, and Lucas liked the way it sounded so he went ahead and used it. If not for Zahn's Coruscant, Lucas would have called the capital world "Had Abbaden" which I think was what it was going to be called if he had went ahead with his tentative plans to write the capital world into the ROTJ script. And Aayla Secura herself was an EU character who appealed to Lucas when he saw her image on an EU comic, and he decided to put her into AOTC. But that's neither here nor there because she was only eye candy to the films and not an essential character, and Had Abbadon was going to be a city world whether it was Had Abbadon or Coruscant. With that said, I agree with you that the EU didn't affect the plot of the prequels with the exception of EU concepts that Lucas instructed EU writers to use (such as Grievous) as back story to his plans for the prequels.

The fact is is that because there IS an Eu and that it DID imapct the movies, is Fact, and that there essentially would be no Revenge of the Sith had there been no EU. ask anyone else on this site. George Lucas himself was involved with the creation of damn near every EU source, especially those involving Sith, just like the Prequel, which is essentially a tale of how the Sith from the EU exact thier revenge for their EU defeats. So if you cant see that the Eu influences the films, then you, madame, are blind!
Ask anyone on this site? Ask me.
Interesting. Not what you said, but how you used it to prove your point and it ended up proving the point you replied to. Meaning, just like I wrote to DD above this reply, Lucas created those concepts and had them put into the EU prelude to the prequels to add to his story. The concepts went into the EU because Lucas created the concepts and put them into the EU himself...rather than EU authors creating them and them somehow influencing the prequel stories. With that said, it was not the EU which influenced the prequels, but as in the example I just gave, but the prequels which influenced the EU.

Madame? Not only are you wrong on this subject but you don't even know what gender I am. We usually check member pages for gender before we assume that someone is a male or female...

... So if one impacted the other it was hands down the other way around my friend.
You're a dude? All these years and I thought you were a chick. Go figure.


I keed, I keed. :w00t:
2nd paragraph: Agreed, like I told the DJ just above.


Since you asked for proof. Wasn't General Grievous an EU created character?

Really? I thought Greivous made his appearance in the Clone Wars cartoon. An EU project. I may be inncorrect. I am no expert.
He did make an appearance, or several, I think. But the character was created for the ROTS film and then put into the Clone Wars cartoon to add fun to the story as a prelude. The very last episode of Clone Wars lead directly into the opening of ROTS, showing Grievious kidnapping Palpatine, and Mace Windu and other Jedi fighting Seperatist forces and trying to stop Grievious from leaving the planet with his "victim". That was GL's plan, to introduce the character in the cartoons. And thus he was put in the EU Clone Wars for his purposes to the Sith story, not the character created by the EU influencing him to put him into Sith.

[Obi-wannabe]

[quote=Tovor;785872]Not so fast there. The Sith was concieved by Lucas prior to the original Star Wars film in 1977. In the A New Hope novel, it specifically says that Vader was a dark lord of the Sith. It is true that the original trilogy does not use the term "Sith" in any of the films, but the Sith were mentioned in the movie novelizations and all materials related to the original trilogy films. The EU involved the Sith because Lucas created the name and the concept for the backstories to the films, backstories which he came up with and jotted down roughly prior to ANH was begun filming.

Agreed, I have a 1977 comic adaptation of the movie, where the word Sith is used. Luke was also given a red light saber by OWK,interesting....

[Darth Massacrus]

waitaminnit: if the movie novelizations are not EU, then nothing is. have you read them? Take, for example, the ANH one. it mentions characters and describes scenes that do not appear in the movies, but do affect the storyline of the movies. Also, Eu sources, like Labyrinth of Evil, explain, expand, elaborate upon, and broaden the Star Wars experience for all. Ever wonder, for example, how Plagueis' name was revealed, not in film, but in EU sources, unless you count the novelizations as being something other than EU but not films... Also, from the original trilogy, the reason Han Solo wears those red stripes on the side of his pants is because he was once an Imperial Navy officer, but was court martialed for saving the life of a Wookie named Chewbacca. Solo won them (they are Correllian Bloodstripes, a famous award) for bravery. While not all EU sources impact the movies, many have, and I do not think it could be otherwise.

[Darth Massacrus]

Also, the comic adaptataions and mivie novels have to be EU, for they have scenes not shown on film, 'expand' the stories told onscreen, and are not film/movie media. Which only furthers my argument that the EU does impact the movies, though the prequel is affected far more than the original trilogy, and not all EU sources havbe the impact on the films.

[Master Magnus]

Really? I thought Greivous made his appearance in the Clone Wars cartoon. An EU project. I may be inncorrect. I am no expert.
I hardly think the thread has "devolved" as you say, it definatley generated interest whether on or off topic. But I do agree it is off topic, but that sometimes happens. The thread is obviously attatched to the EU
Grievous was first introduced in the Clone Wars cartoon, but the character was developed for the movie (i.e. the creators of the Clone Wars cartoon used the already developed character which shows the intimacy of the EU and the movies. Both are official, owned and maintained by Lucasfilm.). However, as I said, stick it to the discussion of the character, not the merits of the EU.

[Darth Massacrus]

as you wish. I just believe that it is undeniable that Plagueis was the Sith master of Darth Sidious.

[Mothman]

as you wish. I just believe that it is undeniable that Plagueis was the Sith master of Darth Sidious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James http://www.galacticsenate.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?p=776699#post776699)
Why is this even a debate?
It was Qui-Gon's voice who called for Anakin to stop killing the tuskens:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/


and yes Plagueis was indeed Palpatine's master.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/palpatine/



Is the Official Site database canon? Then, this question is answered.

(Sorry to repeat myself, but what I said back in August is still true. Why does this debate continue?)

:bye:

[Darth Massacrus]

Amen. it is just that some people including myself, tend to get bogged down or drawn into EU debates. And I heartily agree with your point about the database.

[Mothman]

Amen. it is just that some people including myself, tend to get bogged down or drawn into EU debates. And I heartily agree with your point about the database.

Thanks!

:bye:

[Master Magnus]

Is the Official Site database canon? Then, this question is answered.
Well, the database reflects the canon but it's not a canon source onto itself.

[Mothman]

Well, the database reflects the canon but it's not a canon source onto itself.

So you're saying that the official database ("Movies" section) from the official website cannot be considered as canon, right?

[Darth Massacrus]

pointless point: this is not a canon source, either.

[Obi-wannabe]

What is the topic again?:w00t:

[Zedekk]

I am confused? I read many posts and have people come right out and say that Plagues was Palpitines master. (Most come from guys who swear they don't read the EU, yeah right) I find no evidence from the movies that supports this.

I also read people stating fact that the voice in ATOC that yell " Anakin no!" is Qui Gon Jin. What supports that? Was there a memo I missed?

I, like Obi-wannabe, got hung up on the word "Legend" when Palpatine was telling his "sith story" to Anakin. And that being the case interpreted or mis-interpreted his smirk to be one of recalling that almost all Sith Masters can fall to the hands of the ambitious apprenti they have taken on to mentor. So I can relate to Obi's confusion about the Plaguies-Sidious connection, and not see how it is very "self-evident" otherwise.

I can see that. But personally, what I like best, (in this case at least) is NOT having the answer. Sometimes ambiguity, speculation, and a mystery left open to interpretation, is way more interesting than having every scrap of information mapped out for you, and having all story threads tied up with a neat little bow.

:holosid: :vader:

[Darth Massacrus]

Massacrus here. In this thread, it seems that the moderators regard the novelizations of the films as canon. Operating under this assumption, we can be certain that Darth Plagueis was indeed the Sith master to Darth Sidious, for the novelization of ROTS states as much. As for the Qui-Gon voice question, if you turn on subtitles in the DVD of AOTC, it reads: 'Qui-Gon's voice:Anakin, no!' End of dispute.

[DblDwn]

The movies are all that is canon. I will also go so far as to concur that the novels for the PT are canon but not the OT novels. The reason being that the novels for the PT are based on the actual screenplays for the films themselves that Lucas wrote. The dialogue is about 99% identical and they even include deleted scenes later found on the DVD's (Anakin and Padme at her family's home in AOTC for example). I will not concur that the OT novels are canon for reasons such as Yoda in the ESB novel is blue, not so of course, and in the ROTJ novel Obi-Wan tells Luke the old story about how Owen is his (Obi-Wan's) brother and that is why he took Luke to live with the Lars family. Also not so of course.

Lucasfilm has a contract with the EU, most likely for monetary reasons (people are going to write books regardless so Lucas might as well sign off on it to make it more credible to make more money anyway), so of course there is going to be EU source materials included in character profiles on the official site. That is a smart move from Lucasfilm's standpoint to attract interest in order to sell more books. But still the only things that are 100% undeniably canon are the movies.

Everything else is a quick fix like sniffing a magic marker while your coke dealer is out of town.

[Obi-wannabe]

The movies are all that is canon. I will also go so far as to concur that the novels for the PT are canon but not the OT novels. The reason being that the novels for the PT are based on the actual screenplays for the films themselves that Lucas wrote. The dialogue is about 99% identical and they even include deleted scenes later found on the DVD's (Anakin and Padme at her family's home in AOTC for example). I will not concur that the OT novels are canon for reasons such as Yoda in the ESB novel is blue, not so of course, and in the ROTJ novel Obi-Wan tells Luke the old story about how Owen is his (Obi-Wan's) brother and that is why he took Luke to live with the Lars family. Also not so of course.

Lucasfilm has a contract with the EU, most likely for monetary reasons (people are going to write books regardless so Lucas might as well sign off on it to make it more credible to make more money anyway), so of course there is going to be EU source materials included in character profiles on the official site. That is a smart move from Lucasfilm's standpoint to attract interest in order to sell more books. But still the only things that are 100% undeniably canon are the movies.

Everything else is a quick fix like sniffing a magic marker while your coke dealer is out of town.

100% right on the $. I am not sure about the magic marker thing though.:ugh:

[Tovor]

The movies are all that is canon. I will also go so far as to concur that the novels for the PT are canon but not the OT novels. The reason being that the novels for the PT are based on the actual screenplays for the films themselves that Lucas wrote. The dialogue is about 99% identical and they even include deleted scenes later found on the DVD's (Anakin and Padme at her family's home in AOTC for example). I will not concur that the OT novels are canon for reasons such as Yoda in the ESB novel is blue, not so of course, and in the ROTJ novel Obi-Wan tells Luke the old story about how Owen is his (Obi-Wan's) brother and that is why he took Luke to live with the Lars family. Also not so of course.

Lucasfilm has a contract with the EU, most likely for monetary reasons (people are going to write books regardless so Lucas might as well sign off on it to make it more credible to make more money anyway), so of course there is going to be EU source materials included in character profiles on the official site. That is a smart move from Lucasfilm's standpoint to attract interest in order to sell more books. But still the only things that are 100% undeniably canon are the movies.

Everything else is a quick fix like sniffing a magic marker while your coke dealer is out of town.
And of course, the TPM Scrapbook that came out before TPM, with info about all the characters, ect, listed Ki-Adi-Mundi as the only non master on the Jedi Council I believe I saw that referance in other media as well. But then Anakin said in Sith that it had never been done in the history of the Jedi, having a non master on the Council. So the Scrapbook and other literature said one thing and Sith disregarded it entirely.

[blacksaber]

I'm failing to see the connection here can you expand on your obvious reasons for this, please?

I don't think that Lucas was trying to make it difficult to interpret the "Pelagueis/ Palpatine relationship". I think that Palpatine made it obvious to us screengoers but capitalizing upon Anakin's miscarriage after his dirty affair with intelligence. Anakin is dumb, Pelagueis was Palpatine's master.

[Mothman]

.....I will not concur that the OT novels are canon for reasons such as Yoda in the ESB novel is blue, not so of course, and in the ROTJ novel Obi-Wan tells Luke the old story about how Owen is his (Obi-Wan's) brother and that is why he took Luke to live with the Lars family. Also not so of course.....

My understanding is that the OT novels (just like the PT novels) were written based on early drafts of the script. So, when they were written, what they said was true (from a certain point of view).

Also, we don't necessarily know if or when Owen's heritage may have changed in GL's mind, since that plot point never appeared on film about 20 years later.

With GL, the future is hard to see, always shifting.

[Darth Massacrus]

DblDwn: I would question that the prequel novels are 99% canon and in sync with the movies 99%. For example: Lorth Needa plays a prominent role in the Space Battle above Coruscant in ROTS. He is nowhere in the movie. Also from the ROTS novelization is Grievous realizing that he had personaslly killed the entire Nemoidian bridge crew, while in the movie the Nemoidian bridge crew can be seen fleeing for thier lives from the bridge. Also also, scenes with several Republic Senators, among them Mon Mothma, are present in the ROTS novelization, but nowhere in the film. Furthermore, in the novel, Palpatine comes right out to Anakin and says that Darth Plagueis was his master and that he killed him. this, as you know from this forum, is also not in the film. I think you get my point. Now consider this: if the prequel novels are canon, what about a novel that takes place exactly a few days before the film and leaves off exactly where the film starts? Is that novel canon, or is it completely irrelevant to the film? As for Original Trilogy: West End Games published information about the Original Trilogy in the form of The Movie Trilogy Sourcebook. It gives basic biographical and technical data on the vehicles and characters from the OT. Do you regard this as non canon as well? And what of novels and comics that take place immediately after or during a movie? If the novelizations about the prequels are canon in your opininion, would not the comic adaptations of the prequels also be canon? And what of Sources in the EU with flashbacks to events from the films prequel or original? I am curious to hear your view on those as well. Lastly, what, if any, video game adaptations of the films or of the EU would you regard as canon? Many have actual, canon footage from the films, so could they not also be regarded as canon? Please elaborate and expand on your theory of how only select sources are canon, EU or not.

[Darth Massacrus]

Mothman: good point on the fact that we dont know when GL came up with each and every plot element. Well said. Heres omething for everyone: the Jedi Order was originally called the order of Dai Bendu in early drafts of Star Wars. And, in fact, there IS an Order of Dai Bendu in the EU that is believed to have inspired the early Jedi Order. It is an EU homage to the early drafts.

[Mothman]

Mothman: good point on the fact that we dont know when GL came up with each and every plot element. Well said.....

Thanks!

:bye:

[Zedekk]

With GL, the future is hard to see, always shifting.

^:lol: too true.

[James]

Also also, scenes with several Republic Senators, among them Mon Mothma, are present in the ROTS novelization, but nowhere in the film.

Look on the cut-scenes. You'll see Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma and a bunch of other senators.

Furthermore, in the novel, Palpatine comes right out to Anakin and says that Darth Plagueis was his master and that he killed him. this, as you know from this forum, is also not in the film. I think you get my point.

That doesn't matter, as we now know that Plageuis was indeed Palpatine's master.

[Master Magnus]

The movies are all that is canon. I will also go so far as to concur that the novels for the PT are canon but not the OT novels. The reason being that the novels for the PT are based on the actual screenplays for the films themselves that Lucas wrote. The dialogue is about 99% identical and they even include deleted scenes later found on the DVD's (Anakin and Padme at her family's home in AOTC for example). I will not concur that the OT novels are canon for reasons such as Yoda in the ESB novel is blue, not so of course, and in the ROTJ novel Obi-Wan tells Luke the old story about how Owen is his (Obi-Wan's) brother and that is why he took Luke to live with the Lars family. Also not so of course.

Lucasfilm has a contract with the EU, most likely for monetary reasons (people are going to write books regardless so Lucas might as well sign off on it to make it more credible to make more money anyway), so of course there is going to be EU source materials included in character profiles on the official site. That is a smart move from Lucasfilm's standpoint to attract interest in order to sell more books. But still the only things that are 100% undeniably canon are the movies.

Everything else is a quick fix like sniffing a magic marker while your coke dealer is out of town.
No, the novelizations are also canon (and in the case of ROTS, the novelization was line-edited by George Lucas and GL also works with the novel authors). Ideas that appears in the novelizations (such as the examples you mentioned. Obi-Wan's revelation to Luke was also filmed.) which later shows up to be wrong are so on that point. The canon order which has been stated by LFL is: the movies, the screenplays, the novelizations and the radio dramas. Also, Lucasfilm has stated that the EU is canon. Lucasfilm owns the franchise and they decide what's canon or not and they've decided that the EU is canon (they're the ones maintaining the canon as well). Lucas is informed and asked about every major plot in the EU. Read the EU or don't read read the EU, care about the EU or don't care about the EU, leave it at that.

Now, for the purposes of this forum (as well as the OT forum), the movies and the EU are discussed seperately. If the EU is continued to be discussed here, this thread will be moved to the Jedi Library.

[DblDwn]

But since various details from the OT novels have been altered it is still hard to consider those to be canon. But, as I had stated in the quoted passage, the PT novels are definately canon.

One last thing on the EU, I think it should be up to each individual person to decide for themselves whether or not the consider the EU canon regardless of what LFL says about it. If I choose to not read the EU, as I have done, then how can that realistically be considerd canon to me? It can't. And it shouldn't. But if someone wants to read anything and everything Star Wars regardless of the source, and consider that to be canon, then more power to them.

I simply choose to not follow that path.

[Master Magnus]

One last thing on the EU, I think it should be up to each individual person to decide for themselves whether or not the consider the EU canon regardless of what LFL says about it. If I choose to not read the EU, as I have done, then how can that realistically be considerd canon to me? It can't. And it shouldn't. But if someone wants to read anything and everything Star Wars regardless of the source, and consider that to be canon, then more power to them.

I simply choose to not follow that path.
That was about what I tried to hint at above.

[Mothman]

.....Look on the cut-scenes. You'll see Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma and a bunch of other senators.....

For those who are the real purists, are the cut scenes canon?

For example, in the original release of Star Wars (ANH), the scene in the hangar on Yavin where Red Leader talks to Luke was cut. That scene was restored in the initial release of the Special Editions and included a line where Red Leader says something about meeting Luke's father once. In subsequent releases of ANH, that part of the Red Leader's comments was cut (again). Now, what is really canon? Did Red Leader meet Anakin? Or, not? Or, did Padme, Bail and Mon Mothma really present their protest to the Supreme Chancellor? Or, not?

:bye:

[General Grievous]

I would say it IS canon... the ANH scenes were edited only because they contradicted the prequels which, being movies, are the highest Star Wars canon =)

[James]

I would say anything written by George is canon. The cut scenes weren't edited out simply beause GL thought they were unnecessary and held up the pace of the film.

[Obi-wannabe]

For those who are the real purists, are the cut scenes canon?

For example, in the original release of Star Wars (ANH), the scene in the hangar on Yavin where Red Leader talks to Luke was cut. That scene was restored in the initial release of the Special Editions and included a line where Red Leader says something about meeting Luke's father once. In subsequent releases of ANH, that part of the Red Leader's comments was cut (again). Now, what is really canon? Did Red Leader meet Anakin? Or, not? Or, did Padme, Bail and Mon Mothma really present their protest to the Supreme Chancellor? Or, not?

:bye:

Do you think Obi Wans ghost was standing in the background while Luke was talking to Red Leader saying "Ahh crap this guys gonna blow the whole plan, Yoda's gonna really be pissed"

[Mothman]

Do you think Obi Wans ghost was standing in the background while Luke was talking to Red Leader saying "Ahh crap this guys gonna blow the whole plan, Yoda's gonna really be pissed"

I'm just surprised that they restored Red Leader's complete line when the Special Editions were originally released. If what he said was possibly contradictory to the upcoming PT plotline, why did they restore that? (and later have to edit it out again?)

:bye:

[Master Magnus]

For those who are the real purists, are the cut scenes canon?

For example, in the original release of Star Wars (ANH), the scene in the hangar on Yavin where Red Leader talks to Luke was cut. That scene was restored in the initial release of the Special Editions and included a line where Red Leader says something about meeting Luke's father once. In subsequent releases of ANH, that part of the Red Leader's comments was cut (again). Now, what is really canon? Did Red Leader meet Anakin? Or, not? Or, did Padme, Bail and Mon Mothma really present their protest to the Supreme Chancellor? Or, not?

:bye:
Yes, cut scenes are canon (the sole exception to my knowledge is the General Grievous scene on the ROTS DVD).

[Darth Massacrus]

I believe that many soldiers who served in the Grand Army could have had a chance to meet Jedi, among them a certain Skywalker. Remember that there were volunteers and conscripts in the Grand Army as well, and when Ben tells Luke about serving in the Clone Wars, Luke is excited rather than surprised. Besides, Luke DOES know that his father was apparently a legendary pilot, so that, coupled with the possibilty that Red Leader a potential Clone Wars veteran (he seems to be the right age), I do not find it surprising that someone knows Lukes father.

[Darth Massacrus]

As for the Plagueis Palpatine thing, perhaps there are people alive who knew Darth Plagueis? There might not be many, but if it had to be someone other than the Emperor, I would bet Sate Pestage. He was the ONLY person Palpatine fully trusted, and was with him longer than anyone else, so it is a distinct possibility that Pestage might have known Palgueis... And what of the details of Palpatines early carreer? Surely Moff Panaka of Chommell Sector, which included Naboo, knew, as he was an ally of Palpatine as well, and the one who allegedly told Papatine of the Padme/Anakin wedding.

[Mothman]

I believe that many soldiers who served in the Grand Army could have had a chance to meet Jedi, among them a certain Skywalker. Remember that there were volunteers and conscripts in the Grand Army as well, and when Ben tells Luke about serving in the Clone Wars, Luke is excited rather than surprised. Besides, Luke DOES know that his father was apparently a legendary pilot, so that, coupled with the possibilty that Red Leader a potential Clone Wars veteran (he seems to be the right age), I do not find it surprising that someone knows Lukes father.

I don't find it surprising, either. I just wonder why it was restored and then later removed again.

:scratchchin:

[Darth Massacrus]

I dont know, and dont really care. I mean, who are we to question GL's decisions on things that arent related to TPM? :lol:

[Tovor]

Hey Double Down, Do you have any comments on this post? If not, that's cool. Just thought you may have missed it. :ok:
http://www.galacticsenate.com/showpost.php?p=785872&postcount=98

And this one too:
http://www.galacticsenate.com/showpost.php?p=786314&postcount=115

[Master Magnus]

Hey Double Down, Do you have any comments on this post? If not, that's cool. Just thought you may have missed it. :ok:
http://www.galacticsenate.com/showpost.php?p=785872&postcount=98

And this one too:
http://www.galacticsenate.com/showpost.php?p=786314&postcount=115
If you're are going to discuss that, then I urge you to take it to this thread (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=11636).:vader:

[Tovor]

If you're are going to discuss that, then I urge you to take it to this thread (http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=11636).:vader:
Okiday. :ok:

[Darth Massacrus]

My question still stands: what of EU sources that take place during the films, OT or PT, games that use movie footage, stories with flashbacks, or other sources such as West End Games or Wizards Sourcebooks?

[Darth Massacrus]

Also, what did y'all think of my theory about Sate Pestage knowing Darth Plagueis? (see above posts)

[Master Magnus]

My question still stands: what of EU sources that take place during the films, OT or PT, games that use movie footage, stories with flashbacks, or other sources such as West End Games or Wizards Sourcebooks?
Please use the thread I linked to above.

[jayce76]

Yes . . . .

[jayce76]

Oh yah . . .

[Darth Massacrus]

anyways, getting back to Lords Sidious and Plagueis...

[Mothman]

anyways, getting back to Lords Sidious and Plagueis...

What more can be said?

:bye:

[Darth Massacrus]

probably a lot more when the Plagueis novel comes out...

[Zedekk]

When is that one coming out again?

[Braden Dar]

For me the question is already answered. Plagueis was Palpatine's master. I read Labyrinth Of Evil which states point blank that this is the case. I know many will contest an EU source as not being directly from George Lucas' mouth, but from Lucas' own mouth there were supposed to be twelve movies starting with what we know as A New Hope and telling the story of the defeat of an Empire and the return of justice and freedom. But Lucas decided to change everything in the late nineties and started coming up with the Prequels and telling everyone that this was what he had envisioned decades earlier.
So which is Canon? What Lucas says, or what there is?
We have the movies which do not state point blank that something is or is not. We have the official novels, which George Lucas had to give permission for the authors to write within his story framework, which do tell us point blank.

I'm going to go along with the information that is present and say that Plagueis was Palpatine's master, and that Anakin was birthed from the Force itself by the manipulation of Palpatine, which he infers in the movie.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to wait until next week for my library to get me a copy of Darth Bane so I can read the earliest book listed on my printout...courtesy of JB24 (formerly Greenlightsaber24).

[RollaFett]

Meh. The EU sucks.








ONLY KIDDING!!!


That said, I still can't use an EU novel to answer questions within the film, regardless of how inconsistent Lucas himself is regarding so many things about SW. It's a tricky slope, I admit, but there you go.

[Lord Tesla]

I'm going to go along with the information that is present and say that Plagueis was Palpatine's master, and that Anakin was birthed from the Force itself by the manipulation of Palpatine, which he infers in the movie.

I don't think there's any reason to doubt that Plagueis was Palpatine's master, if he existed at all. Which I think it's clear that he did: Palpatine's nostalgia for past achievements was obvious while relating Plagueis's fate to Anakin.

But I don't think Palpatine created Anakin. I think Plagueis created Palpatine and Anakin both: Palpatine was the prototype; Anakin the
finished, "production" model.

And, yes, I know, there is an apparent chronological problem, Plagueis needing to have been...retired...before Sidious could proceed with Maul, and Anakin not being old enough to have been born before the likely date of that retirement--

However, there are two possible ways to account for this. One: we know it is possible for the Force to allow visions remote not only in space, but in time, in both directions. Yoda said so. Might it not also be possible to directly influence the future, at least on a limited basis? Alway in motion is the future, but, if you aimed only at a very small target, and moved it in a very limited fashion, say a midi chlorian, nudged from just-cruising-around-the-cytoplasm mode, to the life-generating mode...?

Two: Might not a tampering with the midi chlorians now propogate through a generation, or two, and result in a descendant of the possessor of the originally-tampered-with midi chlorians having midi chlorians inclined to put their amorphous heads together and generate a life form to the specifications of the original tamperer?

[RollaFett]

Arrrgghhh---head---hurting----make it----stop!


Seriously, though, interesting thoughts. I never considered Palpatine being created by Plagueis, but now that you mention it, why not? I always was on board with Palpatine creating Anakin, so that would throw that theory out the window, but in a very cool way.
You, Lord Tesla, have just blown my mind.

[Jedi Master Harrison]

Interesting thoughts indeed, but not something that I can have any input on during a Friday evening after a long week at work! :ohwell: Plagueis was definitely Palpatine's master, even if you don't consider EU, which clearly states it, the smile Palps gave when telling Anakin about the death of Plagueis speaks volumes. :yes:

[Lord Tesla]

Arrrgghhh---head---hurting----make it----stop!

Dammit, I've caused another case of Shatnerian Posting Syndrome! Will I never learn?!?!?


Seriously, though, interesting thoughts. I never considered Palpatine being created by Plagueis, but now that you mention it, why not? I always was on board with Palpatine creating Anakin, so that would throw that theory out the window, but in a very cool way.
You, Lord Tesla, have just blown my mind.

Hmmmm. I am at somewhat of a loss, having never to my knowledge blown a mind before. :)

That said, I'm pleased the idea is well-received. It had as its origin in contemplation of the need for practice in creating life. Surely, one would not simply begin and create The Chosen One on the first try. There must have been intermediate steps, experiments, so to speak. If Plagueis had indeed created life, had created Anakin, as Palpatine insinuated, then, who had been the first experiment, who had been the subsequent steps leading up to Anakin? Which led to the conclusion that Palpatine and Anakin were both, after a fashion, the sons of Plagueis, and that Palpatine, the earlier work, was, though the product of a mature technique, did not represent ultimate refinement of that technique.

And we still have not addressed the question of Plagueis's motives.

[Orandhite]

the smile Palps gave when telling Anakin about the death of Plagueis speaks volumes. :yes:

Exactly - that's what I thought when I saw it.

On the subject of Palpatine being created or Anakin being created...where is that in the movies? I don't remember any bit that inferred that, or did I miss something? :scratchchin:

[Miasmo]

At the opera house, when Palps told Anakin that Plagueis was able to influence midichlorians to create life. It didn't exactly expand on it, but a good portion of the audience was under the impression that it's how Anakin was created.

[Orandhite]

Ah-ha! Now I remember - cheers Mo, much appreciated. :)

[Mothman]

Arrrgghhh---head---hurting----make it----stop!


Seriously, though, interesting thoughts. I never considered Palpatine being created by Plagueis, but now that you mention it, why not? I always was on board with Palpatine creating Anakin, so that would throw that theory out the window, but in a very cool way.
You, Lord Tesla, have just blown my mind.


Very interesting thoughts, indeed. IMO, Palpatine telling Lil' Ani that only one has achieved that knowledge (or whatever the line was) and that they will learn this together pretty much tells me that Mr. Tesla's theory is correct. Palpy doesn't really know anything -- It was Grandpa Plagueis who really knew the whole midichlorian deal and could very well have created both of them.

Nice work, Lord Tesla!!:wtg:





:bye:

[Miasmo]

Personally, I had somewhat embraced the notion of Plagueis having created Ani while Palps used the Force to touch on the future and eventually guide him to Anakin with the right actions.

I could probably accept other proposed theories as well, since there is enough of a blank spot there to speculate. Unfortunately, this could've been cleared up partially or entirely with the Plagueis novel they cancelled.

[Lord Tesla]

Very interesting thoughts, indeed. IMO, Palpatine telling Lil' Ani that only one has achieved that knowledge (or whatever the line was) and that they will learn this together pretty much tells me that Mr. Tesla's theory is correct. Palpy doesn't really know anything -- It was Grandpa Plagueis who really knew the whole midichlorian deal and could very well have created both of them.

Nice work, Lord Tesla!!:wtg:



:bye:


Why, thank you! :)

[Mothman]

.....Unfortunately, this could've been cleared up partially or entirely with the Plagueis novel they cancelled.

Maybe it was cancelled because they thought we can't handle the truth! (Insert Jack Nicholson voice here.)





:bye:

[Lord Tesla]

Maybe it was cancelled because they thought we can't handle the truth! (Insert Jack Nicholson voice here.)

Or, maybe, Darth Plaid had a project in mind, and didn't want a novel engendering conflicting ideas about Plagueis. He made a few remarks at one point about a film set before the Prequel Trilogy, well before, in which Yoda would play a part, and the Sith. Maybe he was more serious than people thought.

[VADERGOTH]

my partner recently bought me the new star wars annual from pedigree it is authorised by lucas arts 2008 version it is a nicebook

perhaps sidious wasnt lying about creating life useing the force perhaps that is what he was doing to anakin when he was kneeling over him on mustafar because sidious did say the plagueis taught his apprentice every thing he knew than his apprentice killed him .
i allways did wonder why sidiouses voice showed malice when he was explaining how plagueis could save others from death but not him self:zap:

in this book it tells you that sidiouse is plageuises aprentice

[Darth Darthy]

The answer to this thread is "YES".

Clarification is not required because when it was stated in the movie, it was quite clear. Palpatine was not asking Anakin for a "Darth Plagueis" brand breath mint, he clearly inferred he was his master.

[Orandhite]

Aha, but you first said that it was "stated" but went on to say it was "inferred" which could be interpreted as requiring clarification. ;)

[RollaFett]

I agree with Darthy. Y'know, not every little thing needs to be spelled out to an audience. Sometimes a storyteller simply leaves it up to that audience to come to it's own conclusion on some issues. Sometimes it's quite easy to come to a conclusion, such as this one. Other times, it's a little tricky, such as whether or not Palps is Anakin's 'father'.
But Plageuis was definately Palps Sith master. That's pretty damned clear.

[Cassus Fett]

I am confused? I read many posts and have people come right out and say that Plagues was Palpitines master. (Most come from guys who swear they don't read the EU, yeah right) I find no evidence from the movies that supports this.

I also read people stating fact that the voice in ATOC that yell " Anakin no!" is Qui Gon Jin. What supports that? Was there a memo I missed?

Answer to Q2.. Because its Liam Neesons voice.

[DarthLazious]

Yes Plagueis was indeed the Sith Master of Palpatine.

Any more questions today kids?