A big reason why Palpatine couldn't make Luke turn [Archive]

Loebe Wan Kenobi

10-20-2005, 03:19 PM

Interesting. I also never looked at it like that before. Luke did have better role models growing up. Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru. Although a cynical uncle and a loving aunt they instilled in him good old country boy values. That's my theory. Added to the fact that he had free will and a right to choose. Alot more than his father. His father was kind of forced...well perhaps strongly urged...into his Jedi position. And his need for love and acceptance wasn't allowed to be a part of him. Anakin had good role models as well. I mean c'mon he learned from Yoda, Qui-gon (for a short while), Obi-wan, Mace, etc. etc. etc. It's not what ya got it's what you do with what ya got.

Luke's a farmboy and we all know country kids have the best morals. Stupid slave-boy!

GeneralDirection

10-20-2005, 05:48 PM

Well, Palpatine does try a different method of turning Luke to the dark side. With Anakin, he played on Anakin's lack of a father figure, his confused feelings about the Jedi Order, and his attachment to Padme. Anakin's first real father figure was Qui-Gon, but after he died, he was left to Obi-Wan, who became a father figure for a while, but eventually became more a brother. So by the time he got to RotS, Anakin didn't feel he had a real father figure in the Jedi Order - it's important that he's unwilling to reveal to Obi-Wan that Padme is pregnant. Palpatine essentially gets into a position where he is the father figure, and lures Anakin in that way, playing on his disillusionment, and promising that he can keep Padme alive. He subtly shifts Anakin's moral compass throughout RotS, until Anakin embraces the dark side.

With Luke, as you said, he already knows Palpatine is evil, so Palpatine can't really use the same trick. Vader tried it in ESB by revealing that he was Luke's father, and trying to convince him that together they could make the galaxy better, and it failed abysmally. Palpatine tries instead to tap into Luke's anger - make him angry enough to use the Dark Side while fighting, and then to kill Vader. By that point, Palpatine hopes, Luke will have become so drunk with the power and anger that he will just accept the Dark Side. Vader does play a little on Luke's attachment to Leia - it's the threat to her that makes Luke angry - but there's none of the compassionate-father-figure role that Palpatine played with Anakin.

Sluggo

10-20-2005, 07:33 PM

Palpatine really didn't have anything to lose. He had to make sure Luke or Anakin came out on top. He'd have an apprentice either way. Luke had the brunt of the work to do.

borgmatrix

10-21-2005, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by KingKongsK@Oct 20 2005, 04:36 AM
I believe one of the main reasons Palpatine couldn't turn Luke was because Luke already knew he was a bad man and absolutely did not trust him. Anakin, however, thought he was good and had a positive realtionship with him so it makes it a lot easier to turn Anakin than Luke. Anybody agree?
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Actually, Anakin definitely knew Palpatine was evil once he discovered he was Sidious. Remember his reaction? He wanted to kill Palpatine. The reason he didn't and eventually joined him was because Sidious seemed to have something that Anakin badly, desperately wanted: the power to save Padme.

With Luke, the Emperor had literally nothing. Whereas he'd slowly worked on Anakin over the years and then leaped all over the young Jedi's obsession about losing his wife, Sidious had absolutely nothing to seize upon with Luke. Apparantly, the Emperor was so arrogant he believed that what had taken years with Anakin could be duplicated in a day with Luke.

Sam

10-21-2005, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Loebe Wan Kenobi@Oct 20 2005, 01:19 PM
Luke's a farmboy and we all know country kids have the best morals. Stupid slave-boy!
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I agree with everything that's been said here, except for what's quoted above. If the countryside has the best morals, then why is it so easily turned into supporting those politicians who are the most corrupt and Palpatine-like in their power and war machinations? And wasn't it country kids who, manipulated by the officials they looked up to, turned and did all those style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/censored.gif things to the prisoners?

Sargoth

10-22-2005, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Oct 20 2005, 09:14 PM
Actually, Anakin definitely knew Palpatine was evil once he discovered he was Sidious.
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I disagree. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

Anakin knew Palpatine was a *sith*. Weather or not he was able to equate this with being "evil" is up for debate. The only reason Anakin would have for distrusting the Sith is because the Jedi told him to. By this point, Anakin's head has been filled with such moral ambiguity concerning the doctrines of the Jedi and the Sith that he hesitates. He doesn't want to, yet again, give in to cold-blooded murder. So he "does the right thing" and tells Master Windu of what he found. Of course, he did know that by killing Palpatine, he could lose Padme, and this was held over Anakin's head until he fully turned to the Dark Side. But I do think that up until this point, his understanding of "Good and Evil" had been terribly blurred.

Nairb

10-22-2005, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Loebe Wan Kenobi@Oct 20 2005, 07:19 PM
Interesting. I also never looked at it like that before. Luke did have better role models growing up. Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru. Although a cynical uncle and a loving aunt they instilled in him good old country boy values. That's my theory. Added to the fact that he had free will and a right to choose. Alot more than his father. His father was kind of forced...well perhaps strongly urged...into his Jedi position. And his need for love and acceptance wasn't allowed to be a part of him. Anakin had good role models as well. I mean c'mon he learned from Yoda, Qui-gon (for a short while), Obi-wan, Mace, etc. etc. etc. It's not what ya got it's what you do with what ya got.

Luke's a farmboy and we all know country kids have the best morals. Stupid slave-boy!
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I never really gave the topic much consideration, but I really think that what Loebe has written here makes the most sense to me. Nicely said, my friend.

I also feel that Palpy couldn't turn Luke because Luke was simply a part of Anakin's destiny in fulfilling the prophesy of bringing balance to the Force. If Luke had turned, Anakin would never have had that opportunity to redeem himself by killing his master.

borgmatrix

10-22-2005, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Sargoth@Oct 22 2005, 03:24 AM
I disagree. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

Anakin knew Palpatine was a *sith*. Weather or not he was able to equate this with being "evil" is up for debate.

I definitely acknowledge the moral ambiguity Anakin was experiencing. And certainly, the more he thinks about what Palpatine puts in his head, the more confused he gets. But it seems like Anakin has a black/white kind of mentality. When he spoke with Palaptine at the opera, we saw that his reaction was to characterize the Jedi as "good" and the Sith as "evil". His words. When he discovered Palpatine was Sidious, I think he had that same immediate reaction.

Again, there's no doubt he got more confused the more he contemplated everything that was happening. And he began to justify what he was doing, which is an easy thing to do, especially with everything Palpatine provided him with. But I think his "what have I done!" exclamation and the tears we see from him during the second half of the movie are clear evidence that somewhere deep inside, he knows what he's doing is wrong.

techno-union

10-25-2005, 07:16 AM

Anothing to note is were the 'point of no return' is.
If Luke killed Vader would that have been enough or would more manipulation be required to keep on the dark side

For anakin there was killing Mace and then the Kids, but it seemed like hearing about Padme's death was the final nail in the coffin, to use a sporting analogy

On a side note, if Luke had turned, I'm guessing he and Palps would have escaped the DS, but I wonder (not taking into account the EU) if they'd be ruling the galaxy. If Palps didn't die but the DS still blew up, would the Empire be still going?

darth bangkok

10-25-2005, 01:46 PM

Once Anakin found out Palps was Sidious, he needed some time to think. Previously, after the discussion at the opera, Anakin probably came to the conclusion that the Sith at least deserved some thought and it was not a cut and dry good or evil thing. He saw that maybe the Sith had a perspective too. But when Anakin was in the Jedi council chamber waiting on Mace, he should have put two and two together. Instead of focusing on how his chance to save Padme if Sidious was taken out, he should have realized that it was an empty promise and he had been fooled all along. Thats a tough pill to swallow, but he should have realized that Palps was behind everything including the initial invasion of Naboo when the Sith first appeared. If Palps could orchestrate all that, why not a little white lie to try to get Anakin to join him?

Obi-Wan put it together, why couldn't Anakin have? Maybe its just a case of Luke having gone to school and Anakin not. So its a matter of economics. Anakin was uneducated and came from the lowest class, while Luke had at least some basic education (he could never apply to the academy like he planned without one) and wasn't manipulated so easily.

Ben-jit

10-26-2005, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by borgmatrix@Oct 20 2005, 11:14 PM
With Luke, the Emperor had literally nothing. Whereas he'd slowly worked on Anakin over the years and then leaped all over the young Jedi's obsession about losing his wife, Sidious had absolutely nothing to seize upon with Luke. Apparantly, the Emperor was so arrogant he believed that what had taken years with Anakin could be duplicated in a day with Luke.
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I don't think Palps had nothing for Luke, but he had to use a different stratagem. Infer its in his blood, because his father turned, dangle the carrot that he can save the lives of the rebellion if he joins etc etc. Ultimately his plans were a bit desperate and a sign that this master manipulator's powers were waning. Just like the Jedi in episode 3, the Sith had become lazy and arrogent.

Porthas

11-02-2005, 07:46 PM

Well, considering at one point Anakin wants to kill Palpatine after discovering he's a Sith, I don't think the point of "he thinks Palpatine is a good man" has much weight. Anakin goes to the Dark Side knowing full well that Palpatine is an evil man, and Anakin knows full well what he is going to do is evil, but he's selfish and only cares about what's going to happen to Padme, and covers his guilt by citing "the good of the Republic".

I do think the temptation was stronger for Anakin, considering the carrot of "saving Padme" Palpatine was dangling. The only motivations I could see for Luke to give in to the Dark Side would be it would make him (on the surface) more powerful, let him be with his dad, and let him gain revenge against Palpatine.

Mark Skywalker

11-03-2005, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by KingKongsK@Oct 19 2005, 08:36 PM
I believe one of the main reasons Palpatine couldn't turn Luke was because Luke already knew he was a bad man and absolutely did not trust him. Anakin, however, thought he was good and had a positive realtionship with him so it makes it a lot easier to turn Anakin than Luke. Anybody agree?
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That's an interesting point. very good. However I think the main reason Palpatine couldn't make Luke turn, was that Luke was able control his emotions in check. Unlike his father Anakin (he was able to Stop himself, After beating the crap out of Vader , not to kill him. Luke saw that he was heading down the same path as his Father, and saw the result of his Father's mistake.)

When Luke looked at his cybernetic hand, and Vaders cut off cybernetic hand he realizes that he's following in his Father's footsteps . Luke cools down before he kills his Father .

Luke was then able to rise, Where his Father long ago had fallen.

<span style="color:Green">Luke: Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me. (ROTJ)</span>

clarkson88

11-03-2005, 02:38 PM

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wtg.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yeah.gif Well said!

DarthLazious

02-28-2006, 06:24 PM

I agree with all the way.

Emperor Cos Palpatine

02-28-2006, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by KingKongsK@Oct 19 2005, 10:36 PM
I believe one of the main reasons Palpatine couldn't turn Luke was because Luke already knew he was a bad man and absolutely did not trust him. Anakin, however, thought he was good and had a positive realtionship with him so it makes it a lot easier to turn Anakin than Luke. Anybody agree?
Quoted post

I very much agree. Palpatine and Anakin had an intimate relationship, Anakin saw him as a "father, a mentor and a friend". Luke saw him only as the man that had corrupted his father and killed thousands. Anakin didnt suspect Palpatine as a Sith from a young age.

Good topic btw!!!!

Braden Dar

03-01-2006, 07:42 PM

I agree as well, Emperor COS Palpatine. This is a good topic to take part in. There are so many probabilities as to how Luke managed to hold his ground.
Obviously, the Emperor took a much more blunt approach to Luke than he did to Anakin. But of course, Lucas didn't know at the time he started the Trilogy that he intended to make three of them and have an epic clash between this "emperor character and his minion" and the "hero". When he filmed the Prequels, he knew he was filming three of them to tell the epic story of how this lovable villain came to be. So...floor is open to any one else.

Darth Pravus

03-04-2006, 03:58 PM

One of the few interesting things I remeber reading at the http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Main_Page was in fact that Palpatine was actually gonna drive the anger and rage out of Luke by torturing him through force lightning :yes:

Obi_Ben_Kenobi

03-05-2006, 11:17 AM

But he didnt. He did the exact opposite. FOOL.

Darth Pravus

03-05-2006, 02:42 PM

Enough with the 'fool' comments already, keep them to the Role Playing forums :p

How can you be sure that he was doing the exact opposite? Sith are known for their brutal methodes against their victims, for any kind of reasons they want with them (Turning to the darkside, etc) Remember Malak from KOTOR? Even thought he torturted Bastilla through Force lightning and demanded that she would come over to the darkside, Bastilla said she would never turn to the darkside and neither become his apprentice, and yet she did. Palpatine knew that if Vader and Luke would die, he hade none left to turn to into an Sith apprentice to not only do his bidding, but also carry on the Sith Order. Inthere for he enangerd Luke by not only unleashing force lightning upon him, but also threatning of killing him and insult him aswell. Sith's dark influence are simply not to be underestimated, they can scheme and devour their (Jedi) victims, by any means necessary.

borgmatrix

03-05-2006, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Darth Pravus@Mar 5 2006, 06:42 PM
Palpatine knew that if Vader and Luke would die, he hade none left to turn to into an Sith apprentice of his to not only do his bidding, but also carry on the Sith Order. Inthere for he enangerd Luke by not only unleashing force lightning upon him, but also threatning of killing him and insult him aswell. Sith's dark influence are simply not to be underestimated, they can scheme and devour their (Jedi) victims, by any means necessary.
Quoted post

By that point, I think it was pretty clear that the Emperor was done attempting to turn Luke and was going to kill him. He was definitely furious at being spurned by Luke, and the manner in which he says "And now, young Skywalker, you will die" with the stress on "will" makes it more than clear that he had only one outcome in mind at this point: Luke's death. He had made his play for Luke. It had failed and he still had Vader, so Luke was going to suffer and die for his "lack of vision."

Darth Pravus

03-05-2006, 04:02 PM

True, in a sense of way, yes. But since Luke hade just about an taste of the Darkside's hatred, why kill him now? And not try to tempt Luke even further? Trying to overcome the temptetion of Darkside in a matter seconds isn't that easy, besides Luke wasn't an fully experience Jedi, he was driven by his own emotions forward his friends/Family wich Palpatine could still manipulate, in a possible way of "Become my apprentice, and I shall spare your friends" similar to how Palpatine turned Anakin.

borgmatrix

03-05-2006, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Darth Pravus@Mar 5 2006, 08:02 PM
But since Luke hade just about an taste of the Darkside's hatred, why kill him now? And not try to tempt Luke even further? Trying to overcome the temptetion of Darkside in a matter seconds isn't that easy, besides Luke wasn't an fully experience Jedi, he was driven by his own emotions forward his friends/Family wich Palpatine could still manipulate, in a possible way of "Become my apprentice, and I shall spare your friends" similar to how Palpatine turned Anakin.
Quoted post

Definitely. I think the issue here is Sidious' ego. As well as having someone to fall back on (Vader). The big difference between Sidious here and Sidious back in the prequels is that by the time of ROTJ, he's accomplished everything. He's ruler of the galaxy. He's arrogant enough now that if someone's not going to comply with his wishes, his attitude is "screw you. I'll make you pay for daring to cross me."

He was patient during the prequels, slowing working toward everything he wanted. Now that he has all that, he's no longer willing to waste his precious time. It goes back to the sense of Sidious attempting to accomplish in a day what he had over years with Anakin. You could say he's spoiled. And I suppose he could afford to be, since he already had an apprentice. So when Luke pissed him off, it wasn't necessary to waste time anymore. This brat wasn't going to listen, so now he's going to pay.

Braden Dar

03-06-2006, 10:50 PM

Both are very valid arguments, and equally possible. I can also see that Palpatine displayed great arrogance (an Imperial trademark) and he did have his apprentice in Vader. One Master, one apprentice.
So, if Palpatine was going to turn Luke, he would either have to be rid of Vader (a likely scenario) or allow Vader to kill him and take his place (yeah right!).
I think Palpatine thought of himself as nearly immortal. I think he counted on his mastery of the Dark Side to sustain him, and that he would have no need of a new apprentice. Perhaps he was willing to kill "young Skywalker" and continue his reign as Emperor.
Plus, he did believe that he was doing the right thing. He believed that he responsible for galactic peace, and that without him in command, the galaxy suffer. Maybe he was even right...from a certain point of view.

Ewok Hater

03-07-2006, 01:35 AM

I wonder. If Luke had simply knocked Vader's lightsaber away, (down the reactor shaft), and not cut off his arm, (realizing they both had cybernetic hands & Luke was going to become like his father), would Luke have calmed down to realize he was heading toward the Dark Side?

Darth Magnus

03-08-2006, 06:57 PM

Luke also had what became of his father as a lesson of what happened when you turned to the dark side. Seeing the corruption of the dark side in Anakin had to serve as a reminder to Luke that he would become nothing more than a servant of the emperor if he turned, whereas Anakin had images in his mind of ruling the galaxy with Padme by his side

Darth Magnus

03-08-2006, 06:58 PM

double post

borgmatrix

03-09-2006, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Braden Dar@Mar 7 2006, 02:50 AM
Plus, he did believe that he was doing the right thing. He believed that he responsible for galactic peace, and that without him in command, the galaxy suffer. Maybe he was even right...from a certain point of view.
Quoted post

I have no doubt that he believes the galaxy stronger under his rule. But would he really believe he was responsible for galactic peace? After all, he started the war in the first place. He told Vader in ROTS "finally, we shall have peace" but I couldn't help but think that the galaxy was pretty darn peaceful before he came along.

T-bone

06-16-2007, 07:36 PM

open again

Tovor

06-16-2007, 08:20 PM

Thanks T'bone. :ok:

bruciarsi

06-16-2007, 10:33 PM

Tovor

06-17-2007, 02:19 AM

I think one of the big disadvantages anakin had was his fear of death. I think that was what let palpatine turn him. Even at a young age it shows with his comment to Qui-gon.
Luke i dont think came into their meeting with such a fear. Just the goal of saving his father. A smart palpatine would have used this against him.

A huge factor in all of this time. Palpatine had what mintues maybe hours with lUke. He had years to work on anakin. Thats gotta make a world of difference.
Excellant point, that Palpatine took advantage of Anakin's fear of losing Padme. Luke had only one fear, of his friends on the Endor moon. Ironic it is, how Vader urged Luke to turn to the darkside to save his friends, when it sure hadn't worked for Padme. But that is perhaps why Vader used that tactic with Luke, because he knew that it had worked on himself.

True, Sidious had years to influence and subtly seduce Anakin, and a very short time to turn his influence on Luke. But like Luke said, Palp's overconfidence was his weakness. And so it was. He had wiped out the whole Jedi order by his own design, had defeated the mighty Yoda (IMO), and had the Chosen One obediant to him, and 20 years of growing pride and conceit. Surely he could seduce and convert a former farm boy with very little actual time of Jedi training in very little time.

Fish1941

06-20-2007, 05:20 PM

borgmatrix

06-21-2007, 10:07 PM

Not exactly. I think that Palpatine could have turned Luke. In fact, I believe that he almost did . . . until he opened his big damn mouth and reminded Luke that the latter was on the verge of following Anakin's path.
:rofl: So true. That's one thing that's always infuriated me about his attempt to turn Luke. Every time he almost had him, Palpatine would shoot himself in the foot by throwing out some comment like "...and your journey toward the Dark Side will be complete." I kept thinking "what's wrong with you?!?!?" He might have stood a chance if he wouldn't have undermined his own efforts.

Tovor

06-22-2007, 09:27 AM

:rofl: So true. That's one thing that's always infuriated me about his attempt to turn Luke. Every time he almost had him, Palpatine would shoot himself in the foot by throwing out some comment like "...and your journey toward the Dark Side will be complete." I kept thinking "what's wrong with you?!?!?" He might have stood a chance if he wouldn't have undermined his own efforts.
He forgot to turn off his inner monologue.

Mothman

06-29-2007, 03:15 PM

RollaFett

07-08-2007, 08:39 PM

Not exactly. I think that Palpatine could have turned Luke. In fact, I believe that he almost did . . . until he opened his big damn mouth and reminded Luke that the latter was on the verge of following Anakin's path.

Yay! Fish, we agree! Now isn't that nice?

Seriously though, that is a great point. He just had to keep reminding Luke of how close he was to becoming 'his servant'. No friggin' wonder Luke didn't turn.

lovelucas

07-10-2007, 02:15 PM

again with the hell freezing over - Fish and Rolla - remarkable -

this is a tad difficult to follow (it was for me as I'm not up on my Morgenthau and Thucydides nor even my Kierkegaard ) - but an interesting theory can be found here, http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=23 excerpts to follow:

What Luke figures out — what eluded Obi-Wan and Yoda and the rest of the old-school Jedi with their decaying, doctrinaire, disenchanted notion of the Force — is that arrogating to yourself the right to judge good and evil is itself the Dark Side. The pursuit of absolute ends is what damns Anakin, almost damns Mace Windu (but he is prevented from killing Palpatine and becoming Emperor in his stead because of Anakin’s intervention), and would have damned Luke if he had gone ahead and done what Palpatine wanted him to do: kill his father and become Palpatine’s new apprentice. The temptation of the Dark Side is the temptation of a “just war” and similar notions, the sort of thing that political realists like Weber and Morgenthau and Thucydides have been warning against for millennia — the temptation to exonerate all manner of evil means in pursuit of good and noble ends.
Luke ends up, IMHO, doing what Obi-Wan almost figures out by sacrificing himself on the Death Star in Episode IV: fight to a standstill, then stop and bear witness, and let the Force do what it will. Call it Zen Christianity, perhaps: it’s not the Jedi’s responsibility to save the world, but to fight the powers holding it back in order that new posibilities may be opened. But trying to control those possibilities puts you back at square one.
To put it another way: Luke has (Kierkegaardian) faith. The Jedi in the Old Republic have become too cynical and rationalized for faith. Palpatine, if he ever had faith, has sacrificed it for the pursuit of unlimited power; Anakin loses faith because he is afraid that Padme is going to die and that he won’t be able to stop it (and that somehow he will be to blame if she dies, as he blames himself for his mother’s death), so he makes the classic tragic mistake of bargaining with the devil for the power to prevent tragedy — which always, always backfires horribly.
Luke’s solution is commitment — “I am a Jedi, like my father before me” — which is very Martin Luther-esque, and hence more like Weber’s “science as a vocation” than it is like “politics as a vocation.” I read the Star Wars saga as in part about the dangers of an effete, feckless academy refusing to assume its proper role in the public sphere, which is not to govern directly but to challenge government with “uncomfortable facts” and in so doing to hep create the conditions of possibility for the ceaseless play of social action (to mix religions for a moment, what the Vulcans call IDIC — Infiinte Diversity in Infinite Combinations). Of course that’s not all of what the films are about, but it’s part of what I read there.

Jedi Master Harrison

07-10-2007, 09:09 PM

Interesting. I don't see why Mace would have become the Emperor though, had he killed Sidious. :scratchchin:

darthsith19

07-19-2007, 04:31 PM

That's a good point, I've never really thought about it like that before.

luke

07-20-2007, 08:48 PM

I somehow doubt that Mace would have taken his place as the Emperor, it would class him as VERY strong in the force and in his skill with a lightsaber but Mace was already to involved with the Jedi order and it would be so much more difficult to make him fall to the dark side. but I would not count it out because the Jedi order towards the end did seem to be becoming corrupt an example of which is Mace trying to kill Palpatine rather than take him prisoner which is the Jedi way.

Fish1941

04-02-2008, 04:56 PM

I believe one of the main reasons Palpatine couldn't turn Luke was because Luke already knew he was a bad man and absolutely did not trust him. Anakin, however, thought he was good and had a positive realtionship with him so it makes it a lot easier to turn Anakin than Luke. Anybody agree?

No. The reason Palpatine failed to turn Luke was at the moment when it seemed he was about to succeed, he opened his stupid big mouth, allowing Luke to realize what he was about to do. If he had just kept his mouth shut, Palpatine would have succeeded with Luke.

I somehow doubt that Mace would have taken his place as the Emperor, it would class him as VERY strong in the force and in his skill with a lightsaber but Mace was already to involved with the Jedi order and it would be so much more difficult to make him fall to the dark side.

No it wouldn't. Mace would not have had to join the Emperor to fall to the dark side.

Darill Cyllem

04-02-2008, 06:21 PM

No it wouldn't. Mace would not have had to join the Emperor to fall to the dark side.
I agree that Mace would not have to join the Emperor to fall to the dark side, but I'd be interested to hear why you think it wouldn't be difficult to turn Mace. Maybe that's a bit off topic for this thread, though....

Raganork8

04-03-2008, 12:38 PM

Risking getting more off subject...

Mace was on the verge of the Darkside by Jedi terms when he confronted Palpatine in ROTS; Technically Anakin is right; he should have been arrested and not murdered; his hatred to the Sith took control of him and he was not listening to reason; the reason why Yoda had more of a standpoint in killing him was becase he clearly had too much influence with the Clones; with Order 66 already started there would be no way to stop the killing without doing in Palpatine; but, Mace could have wounded Palpatine and waited for Yoda to reurn to interrogate him and put an end to all things a little more cleaner.

Fish1941

04-03-2008, 03:26 PM

I agree that Mace would not have to join the Emperor to fall to the dark side, but I'd be interested to hear why you think it wouldn't be difficult to turn Mace. Maybe that's a bit off topic for this thread, though....

I never said that it would not be difficult for Mace to be turned. I said that he would not have join with Palpatine to fall to the dark side. Just about any of them - Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc. - were capable of succumbing to the Dark side. Personally, I feel that all of them did in different ways. Only Anakin became a Sith Lord an ally of Palpatine.

Mace was on the verge of the Darkside by Jedi terms when he confronted Palpatine in ROTS; Technically Anakin is right; he should have been arrested and not murdered; his hatred to the Sith took control of him and he was not listening to reason; the reason why Yoda had more of a standpoint in killing him was becase he clearly had too much influence with the Clones;

You're condemning Mace and condoning Yoda for committing similar actions in the same breath. At least that is what it seems to me. I DON'T BUY IT.

As far as I'm concerned, both Mace and Yoda were at fault.

Darill Cyllem

04-03-2008, 03:32 PM

^^I see your point, Raganork, thank you.

[quote=Fish1941;980409]I never said that it would not be difficult for Mace to be turned. I said that he would not have join with Palpatine to fall to the dark side. Just about any of them - Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc. - were capable of succumbing to the Dark side. Personally, I feel that all of them did in different ways. Only Anakin became a Sith Lord an ally of Palpatine.
Ah... I perhaps mis-phrased my question, since it actually was why it might have been realtively easy for Mace to turn to the dark side.... But I think you've addressed my question anyway. Thanks - that's interesting.

At least that is what it seems to me. I DON'T BUY IT.
Please don't shout; it's not really necessary.
:)

RollaFett

04-03-2008, 03:36 PM

^^ Fish, at fault for doing what, trying to kill Palpatine, aka, the Emperor, aka, Darth Sidious, aka, a Sith Lord? You're right, he was harmless, attempting an arrest would've worked with flying colors. Oops, Mace actually did try that and it got three of his Jedi Masters killed.
There's a whole thread about Mace and what he should have done in regards to that moment in time. http://www.galacticsenate.com/showthread.php?t=14331

Fish1941

04-03-2008, 03:48 PM

Fish, at fault for doing what, trying to kill Palpatine, aka, the Emperor, aka, Darth Sidious, aka, a Sith Lord? You're right, he was harmless, attempting an arrest would've worked with flying colors. Oops, Mace actually did try that and it got three of his Jedi Masters killed.

Yes, he was at fault for trying to kill Palpatine. Like Mace, he would have been guilty of murder. I get so sick and tired of people condoning murder because the victim in question is viewed as evil. It is very hypocritical.

The problem with Yoda is that he failed to realize that it was over for the Jedi, regardless of whether he would have succeeded in killing Palpatine or not. Yoda had NEVER received permission from the Senate to kill the Emperor. He didn't even bother trying to arrest him - unlike Mace. And if he had succeeded in killing Palpatine . . .what then? Do you honestly believe that the Senate, who had just cheered on Palpatine for assuming the title of Emperor, would have stood by and allowed the Jedi Master to get away with assssination? Without any real hardcore evidence? Not even Bail Organa could have done anything to help him. He was a minority voice in the Senate.

In the end, even Yoda realized he had made a serious error in judgment in attacking Palpatine. And I do not buy that he had acted with emotion. Despite his calm demeanor, I am quite certain that he did.

As for saving the galaxy from Palpatine's oppression, I think that the Republic deserved it.

RollaFett

04-03-2008, 03:57 PM

How in the hell would Yoda make an arrest attempt? At that point, Palpatine had already declared the Jedi as traitors and stripped them of their power within the Republic/Empire.

And by the way, Palpatine was evil. He wasn't simply "viewed" as evil. They attempted to arrest him, he attacked and killed 3 Jedi, then engaged Mace in a life or death duel. When given the opportunity by Anakin's betrayal, Palpatine didn't hesitate in killing Mace.

Raganork8

04-03-2008, 03:58 PM

You're condemning Mace and condoning Yoda for committing similar actions in the same breath. At least that is what it seems to me. I DON'T BUY IT.

As far as I'm concerned, both Mace and Yoda were at fault.

Well; by what you're saying you must see these actions as wrong and faulty as well

Qui Gon and Obi-Wan Engaging Darth Maul at the end of TPM

Obi Wan Fighting Vader in ANH

Luke fighting Vader in TESB

Obi Wan and Anakin fighting Dooku in AOTC

Obi Wan fighting Grevious in ROTS

and all other Jedi's for destroying droid INSTEAD of going after their programmers.

There's a subtly in the light side of the force; which is what brought them down in the first place.

Mace was right to do what he did; by human standards; but, by Jedi Standards there was nothing he could do but ALLOW Palpatine to take over the galaxy; he couldn't arrest him; because we saw what happened (all I was saying was that he had him down and THEN he should have had some clarity to wound him and hold him) and he couldn't kill him because it goes against the Jedi way.

The only real fault we can account to Mace was not holding Palpatine detained; he obviously had Anakin there; who he already feared would compromise things; he could have appeased anakin and wounded Palpatine and called Yoda back and dealt with the situation when he wasn't out numbered by odds.

But Yoda had no such luck. for all he knew ALL of his comrades were DEAD or DYING and the entire galaxy was about to be ruled by the Supreme rulers of EVIL.

That's where we see the HUGE flaw in the Jedi code; Yoda HAD to kill Palpatine to avoid what clearly came next; for the greater good of the Galaxy.

To assume they are at fault is to want something impossible I ask you

What would you have done in the situation?

borgmatrix

04-07-2008, 02:23 PM

I get so sick and tired of people condoning murder because the victim in question is viewed as evil. It is very hypocritical.
If two people are fighting with "laser swords" (as George calls 'em :)), it hardly seems surprising or shocking that one might die. One killing another in combat doesn't seem like a problem to me in this context. When one (Sids) refuses to surrender and continues to fight, it becomes much harder to save him. At that point, if Sids is continuing to fight and attack, I'd say he "deserves it" as you said of the Republic. That's what you said, right?
As for saving the galaxy from Palpatine's oppression, I think that the Republic deserved it.
So apparantly its ok for the Republic to deserve slavery, oppression, and death under Sids, but its sooooo incredibly wrong for Sids to be killed. And you were saying something about being hypocritical?

The problem with Yoda is that he failed to realize that it was over for the Jedi, regardless of whether he would have succeeded in killing Palpatine or not.
It had nothing to do with what happened to the Jedi. He was looking beyond himself and the Jedi to what was best for the galaxy and the people of the Republic.

RollaFett

04-07-2008, 02:36 PM

If two people are fighting with "laser swords" (as George calls 'em :)), it hardly seems surprising or shocking that one might die. One killing another in combat doesn't seem like a problem to me in this context. When one (Sids) refuses to surrender and continues to fight, it becomes much harder to save him. At that point, if Sids is continuing to fight and attack, I'd say he "deserves it" as you said of the Republic. That's what you said, right?

So apparantly its ok for the Republic to deserve slavery, oppression, and death under Sids, but its sooooo incredibly wrong for Sids to be killed. And you were saying something about being hypocritical?

No, no, no, no, no, no....it was cold blooded murder, don't you remember that from the "What Was Mace Supposed To Do" thread? ;)

borgmatrix

04-07-2008, 06:17 PM

No, no, no, no, no, no....it was cold blooded murder, don't you remember that from the "What Was Mace Supposed To Do" thread? ;)
Now that you mention it, I think I vaguely recall that. A relatively brief discussion, wasn't it? Glad its come back up here since we apparantly didn't cover it well enough there. :wink:

Rabid Whiphid

04-10-2008, 04:06 AM

I get so sick and tired of people condoning murder because the victim in question is viewed as evil. It is very hypocritical.

No, it's not hypocritical. GOOD can't be GOOD unless it refuses to tolerate the presence of EVIL. Sometimes that means DESTROYING sources of evil so that evil CAN'T HURT innocent people. That's basic morality 101.

What you are arguing for, is moral relativism, a totally bankrupt (but extremely popular) theory which says there is no such thing as good and evil. ...Which is the most evil of all lies, often told by evil individuals themselves. Evil individuals like to tell this lie because it tricks gullible suckers into defending blatant acts of evil, and letting the evil individuals get away with whatever crimes they want to commit.

If you have any confusion about how to define evil, think: selfish acts that put your needs before the needs of others, even if it means hurting others to get what you want. That's evil in a nutshell. Suggested further reading: The Ten Commandments.

-

Blizzard

04-13-2008, 05:46 PM

Sluggo

04-14-2008, 03:11 AM

I remember when this thread was about the original trilogy...

Raganork8

04-14-2008, 08:19 AM

:laughing:

RollaFett

04-14-2008, 02:35 PM

I like lightsabers.

Blizzard

04-15-2008, 12:23 AM

I like the green ones.

Rabid Whiphid

04-15-2008, 03:38 AM

^In YOUR opinion.

Please don't preach in the Star Wars threads. You can go down the hall to the Christianity thread for that. And the ten commandments has no amendments saying it is okay to kill what, in your opinion, is evil.

The battle between good and evil are the best battles. But it is ALWAYS a matter of opinion on which side is good and which side is evil.

Not trying to preach... Just trying to say the difference between "good and evil" in Star Wars is as basic (and obvious) as a children's Sunday School lesson. Sorry if that bothered you.

Raganork8

04-15-2008, 09:28 AM

Not trying to preach... Just trying to say the difference between "good and evil" in Star Wars is as basic (and obvious) as a children's Sunday School lesson. Sorry if that bothered you.

Is it?
Is Anakin Clearly Evil for trying to save Padme?

Is Mace windu clearly Good when he killed Jango Fett or attempting to kill Palpatine?

There is a grey area and I understand what you're saying.

Some things can't be muddle to far into one side; like saying Obi Wan is Evil or Palpatine is the hero.

the only one character without doubt of being good/ Evil is R2D2 being "good"

Mothman

04-15-2008, 02:44 PM

.....like saying Obi Wan is Evil or Palpatine is the hero.

From a certain point of view.

:bye:

Raganork8

04-15-2008, 04:56 PM

No...

Unless you live in the Star Wars Universe; we watched the films with complete objectivity and it has shown us that Palpatine is NOT a hero and Obi wan is NOT evil; there is no interpretation there; because what we've seen is what exist; with no prejudice or bias

IMO

borgmatrix

04-15-2008, 06:31 PM

the only one character without doubt of being good/ Evil is R2D2 being "good"
No, there are plenty of others. It is pretty clear who is good and who is bad. Remember. We're not equating these terms with perfection. Someone being imperfect doesn't mean they're not good. Making mistakes doesn't mean being not good. From the context of the movies and the scenes, it's clear for instance that Obi-wan is good. Palpatine is evil. Yoda is good.

Whether they all made the correct or best decisions at time might be debatable. But its easy to grasp a sense of who's "good" or "bad". These are general terms, after all.

Raganork8

04-15-2008, 06:34 PM

No, there are plenty of others. It is pretty clear who is good and who is bad. Remember. We're not equating these terms with perfection. Someone being imperfect doesn't mean they're not good. Making mistakes doesn't mean being not good. From the context of the movies and the scenes, it's clear for instance that Obi-wan is good. Palpatine is evil. Yoda is good.

Whether they all made the correct or best decisions at time might be debatable. But its easy to grasp a sense of who's "good" or "bad". These are general terms, after all.

While I agree with you

I just point you back to the Obi Wan is evil thread; there is some doubt somewhere...

I think R2 is the only one everyone will universally agree on right or wrong.

borgmatrix

04-15-2008, 07:18 PM

I just point you back to the Obi Wan is evil thread; there is some doubt somewhere...
Oh, I'm well aware. I'm very much in the thick of things over there, arguing for something that seems painfully obvious.

Raganork8

04-15-2008, 07:23 PM

Oh, I'm well aware. I'm very much in the thick of things over there, arguing for something that seems painfully obvious.

lol

so am I

but that's half the fun :nahnah:

RollaFett

04-17-2008, 04:35 PM

Ditto for me. It's a discussion I'm enjoying, but also frustrated by.

Darth Wiseguy

04-19-2008, 10:28 AM

Is it?
Is Anakin Clearly Evil for trying to save Padme?

Is Mace windu clearly Good when he killed Jango Fett or attempting to kill Palpatine?

There is a grey area and I understand what you're saying.

Indeed, is Palpatine evil for trying to reach a deeper understanding of the dark side of the Force to be able to keep those you love from dying?

It completely depends on your set of morals and values as to wheter you judge someone or something ´evil´ or ´good´.

Raganork8

04-19-2008, 10:48 AM

Indeed, is Palpatine evil for trying to reach a deeper understanding of the dark side of the Force to be able to keep those you love from dying?

It completely depends on your set of morals and values as to wheter you judge someone or something ´evil´ or ´good´.

While I'm happy you agree with me; your example doesn't fit.

Clearly Palpatine LIES to Anakin; he makes believe he knows the power to save Padme then the story later changes to

"Only one has learn the power to cheat death; but, together we will discover the secret"

He had no intention of teaching Anakin anything.

Darth Wiseguy

04-20-2008, 08:05 AM

He had no intention of teaching Anakin anything.

Yes, he did, right after he discovered how to yield that power with the help of Anakin/Darth Vader by his side. They had to form kind of a symbiosis in this matter. Without Anakin he couldn´t discover how to get this power and Anakin believed that without Palpatine´s knowledge of the force Padme would die. So Palpatine told the truth to Anakin at first when he said he could give him the power to save Padme. He just didn´t tell him immediately that he himself needed to find a way to gain that power with his help. So, there is no lying there.

RollaFett

04-21-2008, 01:18 PM

^ Whhhaaaatttttt?!?!?!?!?!?

You just made my brain hurt with your defense of Palpatine. What, in any of the films, gave you the impression that Palps was anything if not dishonest? Are you on his legal defense team or something?

Raganork8

04-21-2008, 02:08 PM

Yes, he did, right after he discovered how to yield that power with the help of Anakin/Darth Vader by his side. They had to form kind of a symbiosis in this matter. Without Anakin he couldn´t discover how to get this power and Anakin believed that without Palpatine´s knowledge of the force Padme would die. So Palpatine told the truth to Anakin at first when he said he could give him the power to save Padme. He just didn´t tell him immediately that he himself needed to find a way to gain that power with his help. So, there is no lying there.

Palpatine claimed to already know the secret...

then he didn't...

then he doesn't mention it.

He lied to Anakin about his being able to save Padme; his original course of action for Anakin was

learn the dark side and I can teach you; btu you have to accept my teachings

then

well; together we can try and figure it out

then

oh well chick is dead now guess that plans over.

Darth Wiseguy

04-21-2008, 02:50 PM

Palpatine claimed to already know the secret...

then he didn't...

then he doesn't mention it.

He lied to Anakin about his being able to save Padme; his original course of action for Anakin was

learn the dark side and I can teach you; btu you have to accept my teachings

then

well; together we can try and figure it out

then

oh well chick is dead now guess that plans over.

Palpatine did NOT lie about being able to save Padme. Palpatine could, with his extensive knowledge of the force and the power that Anakin had, discover how to use this power. He did withold a part of information at first by saying the he could simply save her, but only to convince Anakin to join the dark side. Palpatine HAD to, Anakin was brainwashed bij the Jedi order and his teachers about how "wrong" the dark side and the Sith are for nearly his entire life, so it was going to take quite some convincing if Anakin was to join him. Plus, Palpatine had no way to know Padme was going to die, as she tragically did, before he had the chance to understand the power to stop people from dying.

Raganork8

04-21-2008, 02:58 PM

Palpatine did NOT lie about being able to save Padme. Palpatine could, with his extensive knowledge of the force and the power that Anakin had, discover how to use this power. He did withold a part of information at first by saying the he could simply save her, but only to convince Anakin to join the dark side. Palpatine HAD to, Anakin was brainwashed bij the Jedi order and his teachers about how "wrong" the dark side and the Sith are for nearly his entire life, so it was going to take quite some convincing if Anakin was to join him. Plus, Palpatine had no way to know Padme was going to die, as she tragically did, before he had the chance to understand the power to stop people from dying.

so if he could why did he then LIE about: Only one has achieved this power but together we can obtain it's secrets

No matter how you sliced it; he lied to Anakin to get what he wanted.

Darth Wiseguy

04-21-2008, 03:25 PM

so if he could why did he then LIE about: Only one has achieved this power but together we can obtain it's secrets

No matter how you sliced it; he lied to Anakin to get what he wanted.

Like i said, it was necessary to withold part of the facts because Anakin had been indoctrinated by the Jedi for a long time about the Sith and the fact that only the Jedi are just. Otherwise it might have proven more difficult to accept the dark side as his side for Anakin.

Raganork8

04-21-2008, 03:32 PM

no...

He didn't withhold fact he lied

he first said:

I have the power

he then said

I have to learn it with your help.

those can't exist as truth at one time.

Darth Wiseguy

04-21-2008, 04:00 PM

no...

He didn't withhold fact he lied

he first said:

I have the power

he then said

I have to learn it with your help.

those can't exist as truth at one time.

I understand you but disagree, because by saying he HAS THE POWER, he tells the partial truth. You see, he actually HAS THE POWER TO DISCOVER THE POWER. I admit Palpatine is playing Anakin but lying? Not in my opinion. Plus remember, it´s all for a just cause, to establish an Empire and bring peace.

Darth Wiseguy

04-21-2008, 04:01 PM

Are you on his legal defense team or something?

Depends on how profitable the position would be. :grin:

RollaFett

04-21-2008, 04:06 PM

I understand you but disagree, because by saying he HAS THE POWER, he tells the partial truth. You see, he actually HAS THE POWER TO DISCOVER THE POWER. I admit Palpatine is playing Anakin but lying? Not in my opinion. Plus remember, it´s all for a just cause, to establish an Empire and bring peace.
"Just cause"? "Bring peace"? Have you forgotten that Palps staged the very war he's bringing peace to?!

Depends on how profitable the position would be. :grin:
Considering how successfully Palps manipulated the entire galaxy to begin with, I don't think he'd actually need any legal representation. If I were you, though, I wouldn't take the job. Palps would probably trick you into working for free anyway. :P

Darth Wiseguy

04-21-2008, 04:22 PM

"Just cause"? "Bring peace"? Have you forgotten that Palps staged the very war he's bringing peace to?!

Whatever means are necessary! Sometimes one needs to fight to ultimately bring peace. :skull:

Raganork8

04-21-2008, 04:53 PM

I understand you but disagree, because by saying he HAS THE POWER, he tells the partial truth. You see, he actually HAS THE POWER TO DISCOVER THE POWER. I admit Palpatine is playing Anakin but lying? Not in my opinion. Plus remember, it´s all for a just cause, to establish an Empire and bring peace.

What peace?

He builds the Deathstar Right after what "peace" is that?

he has the power to discover the power?

so does Anakin; so does Mace, so does Yoda, So does Obi wan

He said he had the power to save Padme and then said he didn't.

that's a lie.

Was he not lying when he said he "loves the republic"?

Darth Wiseguy

04-22-2008, 06:13 AM

What peace?

He builds the Deathstar Right after what "peace" is that?

he has the power to discover the power?

so does Anakin; so does Mace, so does Yoda, So does Obi wan

He said he had the power to save Padme and then said he didn't.

that's a lie.

Was he not lying when he said he "loves the republic"?

I just said he didn't lie about that particular subject. I agree he lies on many other instances, but many of his lies are for the good of the people in the republic/empire if you take the time to discover his motives for lying. EVERYBODY lies, even YOUR favorite politician or best friend in real life. Sometimes it's better for the people to not know the truth. Always keep the bigger picture in mind, the empire Palpatine envisiones will create better lifes for most of the inhabitants of the empire, a better economy and a leader who knows how to deal with difficult problems instead of just talk about them. Palpatine likes powes but who doesn't (the Jedi for instance crave power, eventhough THEY call it knowledge), it's better that power lies in the hands of a great man than in the hands of a buch of mindless bureaucratic politicians who achieve NOTHING.

About the casualties of the clone war Palpatine created, so be it. Sometimes casualties are necessary to create a bigger and better environment for the masses. Better that than the corrupttion, poverty and empty promises the republic spreads.

RollaFett

04-22-2008, 12:51 PM

Whhhaaaatttt?!?!?!?!?!?!?

the empire Palpatine envisiones will create better lifes for most of the inhabitants of the empire
I think the inhabitants of Alderran would beg to differ.
Sometimes casualties are necessary to create a bigger and better environment for the masses. Better that than the corrupttion, poverty and empty promises the republic spreads.
Maybe you might want to read the following:
"It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the Death Star, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy... "
That was the opening crawl for ANH. Seems to me that there is little question as to how well accepted the Empire, and it certainly wasn't viewed as a "bigger and better environment for the masses".

Darth Wiseguy

04-22-2008, 04:43 PM

Whhhaaaatttt?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I think the inhabitants of Alderran would beg to differ.

Maybe you might want to read the following:
"It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the Death Star, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy... "
That was the opening crawl for ANH. Seems to me that there is little question as to how well accepted the Empire, and it certainly wasn't viewed as a "bigger and better environment for the masses".

In fact the Rebels are a small portion of the entire population of the galaxy. So they are not even close to being the majority of the Empire. It´s better to wipe them out to create peace in the newly formed Empire which is less bureaucratic, safer and more profitable than the Republic ever was. It´s a shame the Rebels didn´t want to join the Empire and be part of a more harmonic and safer galaxy, instead they fought a guerrilla war against the Empire.

I´m sure we´re getting too far off topic, sorry for that.

RollaFett

04-22-2008, 04:51 PM

Yeah, quite a bit off topic, in fact. That's ok, we're both guilty of it, but time to get back on topic, methinks.

Raganork8

04-22-2008, 06:16 PM

In fact the Rebels are a small portion of the entire population of the galaxy. So they are not even close to being the majority of the Empire. It´s better to wipe them out to create peace in the newly formed Empire which is less bureaucratic, safer and more profitable than the Republic ever was. It´s a shame the Rebels didn´t want to join the Empire and be part of a more harmonic and safer galaxy, instead they fought a guerrilla war against the Empire.

I´m sure we´re getting too far off topic, sorry for that.

I don't want to sound rude; but, what in goodness name are you talking about?

The Empire destroys planets and kills people for a job; it holds nations and planets in garrison and uses their ports to support it's spending and kills anyone who dares to think otherwise.

That's not Harmonic; you don't create harmony for the monsters who try to do away with it.

The republic wasn't flawed it was the greedy monsters in it that made it fail.

The Empire KILLS people who don't agree with it...

You're right I'm starting a new Topic in the General Star Wars discussion